I'm Just Wondering Some Thangs

[Idlethought]

The post I made in the Beauty Vs. Vanity thread just got a few thoughts swirlin round in my head. Here goes nuffin...

I'm wondering, why is it that we as a society downplay the value of education? Is it because we're rapidly moving towards more and more instant gratification, and the entire process of school is long and arduous for an uncertain result? Is it because we've lost sight of the value of dedication and effort? It's kind of weird because I notice here and there people may discontinue their education to work immediately and make money now now now. No one wants to take the time to study, work hard, learn even though its a slow process, and become proficient at something, myself included sometimes. Am I the only one that feels this way?

Another thing, how come we also don't encourage the importance of depth to a person. Instead of being like "oh so and so thinks this and that, that's interesting. I wonder what they think about such and such...", we're more inclined to go, "what do they look like, and what can they do for me?" What's the deal with that? In the past people seemed to be more concerned with attaining knowledge, becoming masters of different arts, different sciences. They would spend half or more of a lifetime figuring things out, and this was a regular occurence among people. Now it's like "yo what the fuck are you doing? Cut that shit and get that paper man." What's the deal with that?

And one more shorter thing: Why are we more concerned with an End rather than the Means? Or rather why does it seem that way? Why is it that we have to have this thing, we have to have it now, and we don't care what it takes to get it? Whatever happened to patience, honesty, honor, and ethics?

I suppose I'll post more as I think of them.

[Mastiker]

blah blah blah education blah blah blah Ends to Means blah blah blah [/rant]

I agree. It seems like people want to do things NOW instead of EVENTUALLY. There's a giant lacking of patience. In construction yards, instead of taking the time to safely construct a scaffold, they are quickly put up. Saftey hazards are ignored, so that the site can be made more quickly. What happened to quality over quantity?

[LordZeal]

Yeah it just seems everyone is trying to force the world to move faster and faster. Things are just so hurried now that no one cares what you do as long as you meet some goal as quickly as possible. So many things would just be better if we slowed down and did it right the first time. I can't tell you how much money my company wastes simply because they hurry projects along as fast as the can and fix the problems after the fact when they cost twice as much to correct if they are correctable at all.

And the education thing, I've been out of school for awhile now, but alot of my friends are recent graduates or in grad school and its amazing what passes for education nowadays. I don't know what those of you who are still students think, but it seems to me that High school, and to a lesser extent colleges, seem to cater to the lowest common demoninator now. If some kid can't pass a class cuz hes just not up to par with the others they seem to be lowering the standards so he can pass. Now I'm sorry, but why are we compromising the education of the whole student body to accomodate the lowest scoring students?? I mean are we so PC now that we can't acknowledge that some people are just not very smart? Not everyone should be able to pass High school and goto college. Now that sucks, but theres got to be a better way to deal with it then what we are doing now. I also think that these standardized tests are total BS as far as determining what a student knows and how smart/educated they are. The education system has so much room for improvement and it seems to be going downhill instead of improving.

Oh and the whole ethics thing. Well I don't know how good the ethics have ever been in this country, but I can tell you that our schools teach poor ethics. Oh yes, it is a well known fact that you can lie your way to better grades, in fact they almost encourage it. I know many people that did better in class by lieing to their teachers and getting them to give them extra credit, more time, or to even just bump their grades. I didn't compromise my honor in school and I know some of my grades suffered because of it. As an example, a friend of mine that graduated with me with the same degree once asked me where I learned how to program, now we both have degrees in information systems ok, we both had to take at least 3 programming classes for this degree. The reason she didn't know how to program? She used her good looks to get the other guys in her classes to write her programs, she also had a higher GPA then I did, got recognized by the department for her outstanding academics, and was given scholarships. She graduated with the same degree as I, had better GPA, and was totally unable to live up to that degree in the real world. She did have a hard time finding a job after college, but its still amazing that she even got a job in the same field as me.

[Mastiker]

They passed this thing among most elementary schools. My mom calls it "everyone must pass", but I forget if that's the real title or not.

But now, they teach thing in elementary school that I didn't even know until recently. The education system has definitely improved in some areas, but I think it's becomeing a little too efficient if first graders are already on their way to learning algebra before they can read.

[Idlethought]

well they care more about the amount passing than the amount actually learning. the actual grade is really fucking meaningless. i personally think that every test given should be an essay test so that you can actually SEE that the students know their shit

[Loc]

I echo your thought Idle but I've found that with the education part, the teacher has to be passionate about the subject to teach it well to their students rather than just using the job to get money.

The students can tell which they're doing it for and if they know the teacher doesn't care then why should they? That's the way I feel about it anyway.

I agree with the whole passing thing though, I've seen so many pupils in High School become mindless robots just regurgitating answers from their revision books rather than applying their knowledge of the subject into answering questions well (this isn't really as much of a problem in college though).

[Treayn]

They need more freeform questions, Not multiple-choice abcd tests.

I remember back in middle school, one of my teachers was pissed at the class. She threatened us by saying "I don't care if you pay attention, I'll just fail you. I'm still getting paid for it."

[Psychochink]

And one more shorter thing: Why are we more concerned with an End rather than the Means? Or rather why does it seem that way? Why is it that we have to have this thing, we have to have it now, and we don't care what it takes to get it? Whatever happened to patience, honesty, honor, and ethics?

Well, with the caveat that I don't think the coloured portion is a logical follow-on from and 'end over means' philosophy, would you care to explain what, exactly, is wrong with a utilitarian moral code? [Ooh, ooh, pet topic]

Keeping in mind that patience, honesty and honor are not redundant in such a moral code - they simply have to be flexible depending on the specific circumstances.

[Bob]

The post I made in the Beauty Vs. Vanity thread just got a few thoughts swirlin round in my head

And you couldn't have posted this in that thread?

[Trump]

Well, I think the education program you are referring to is "No child left behind" ? Or at least that's close.

I think education is overrated. People think you should go to school just to say you have an education. But what if what you really want to do is be a cook? Would you be so stupid as to judge the quality of a cook by what school he went to? It's about experience and the ability to learn. While you can go to school for these things, it doesn't really help. School teaches you how to learn, and gives you some experience, but you can learn 5x as much on the job as you can in school. The only time I'd look down on someone who didn't want to go to college is someone working a dead end job (manual labor type) that they hate.

And everything is always about the end result. The means never matter. Well, the means affect the result, so I suppose the means do matter, but not in the same context at the result. If you are talking about ethical issues, the reason people bring that up is because the result is very intangible. Part of the result is how people feel, and what happens to other people. There are so many bastards in this world who could care less about other people that governments have to step in and create rules and fines. Fines are a result people can see, that matter to them.

For example, if you want to go to the mall you can walk or take a skateboard. Does it really matter at all which one you choose? Because in this case your choice does not affect anyone else, it only matters that you get to the mall. The end result drives everything.

Don't have time to address the other issues. (or even these very well, blasted unorganized rambling thoughts!)

[Idlethought]

And you couldn't have posted this in that thread?

Because I didn't feel like it so I posted a new thread. Why must you always be negative.

[Bob]

Because I didn't feel like it so I posted a new thread. Why must you always be negative.

It's my prerogative

[The Divine Comedy]

It's my prerogative

If it is, could you take it to PMs, because I (and probably others) am getting a bit tired of wading through poorly-disguised flames to get to the other responses. Thank you. :)

[Bob]

If it is, could you take it to PMs, because I (and probably others) am getting a bit tired of wading through poorly-disguised flames to get to the other responses. Thank you. :)


No. You're welcome

[Kass]

It's my prerogative

Knock it off, please.

[Balain]

...but it seems to me that High school, and to a lesser extent colleges, seem to cater to the lowest common demoninator now. If some kid can't pass a class cuz hes just not up to par with the others they seem to be lowering the standards so he can pass. Now I'm sorry, but why are we compromising the education of the whole student body to accomodate the lowest scoring students?? I mean are we so PC now that we can't acknowledge that some people are just not very smart? Not everyone should be able to pass High school and goto college....

Here we departmental exams for every subject. You take it in grade 6 9 and 12 I think. It's been awhile since I was in those grades so sorry if I don't remember it exactly. I believe it was the Canadain goverment that had a group of teachers from across the country make these exams, and in Junior high and high school anyways it counted as your final. These tests were meant to see how the students are learning in general and how well the system is teaching them.

So a few years back, the math exam for grade 12, only a handful of students across the country got 80% or more on the exam. Most were in the 50% to 60% range and lots failed.

So what does the sytem do, they don't look at the results and say oh we need to change how we teach kids. They don't say oh there are a few smart kids. The say to ignore that test and start making the math tests easier. GAH

[Bob]

..............

[stillbornsinger]

Trump- its more than just being able to cook, or prerequisite skills for whatever job someone wishes to have. Its about being a well rounded person. Having an intelligent, well educated society benifits us all.

That cook might not need to know much about the ______ countries political system in order to cook, but hey he is also a voting citizen. I would prefer that people who are voting and making decisions as a collective whole that effect my life are intelligent enough to take into consideration the possible effects of their votes.

Also, one day when the cook has a child, it would benifit the child to be brought up by someone with half a brain rather than a limited knowledge on just how to cook. This kid might have the potential to cure cancer but if his/her father is a dimwit then I would say their probability of reaching their potential has been hindered.

Balain- Thats crap... I remember the same thing happening in my schools. Also, the school's funding was tied into how well students did on the standardized tests so more often than not our english and math classes were "test passing skills" classes and not actually educational. I swear I've spent countless hours in class being taught just how to do multiple choice questions and make the best guesses even if I don't have a clue about the subject. As a result I'm really damn good at taking tests, but honestly I'd prefer to have better grammer.

[Trump]

To say that school is the only place you can learn these things is very closed-minded. I graduated with a masters in electrical engineering degree and did not have to take one course in college about the political system or anything to do with history. Unless someone is interested in learning about those things, no amount of classes offered by a college will help.