Holocaust denied! [Archive] - Outpost Nine Forums

mamba

12-14-2005, 08:45 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,1667355,00.html

I would really like your thoughts on this. I am not claiming to be an expert on this topic. but it does seem to me that Iran is doing itself no favours in the run up to these discussions about its nuclear future. I understand that there is no denying people their opinions but how can he claim it to be a myth when we have so much recorded evidence, also what do people think about his views about, a piece of europe should have beeen given as an area for the jewish to settle rather than part of palestine. i feel that it would have resulted in the same feelings of annymosity towards them in europe and would have given a basis for another possible world war. what are your thoughts?

FireWolf238

12-14-2005, 08:51 PM

like i said on IRC too seconds ago: that irany shitfuck needs to get assasinated by mossad, and the next several guys who replace him so iran would have a not-so-tyranical dictator

NERD

12-14-2005, 09:05 PM

like i said on IRC too seconds ago: that irany shitfuck needs to get assasinated by mossad, and the next several guys who replace him so iran would have a not-so-tyranical dictator

Dude, think before you post. Though the Iranian president is not really helping the Middle East relationships, if he was to be assassinated by Mossad... can't you even fathom that this might lead to another war? And don't be complaining about when the gas prices take another hike because of another war.

Ahmadinejad is being a dick for saying that though. I don't like the way he has been tackling the subject of Israel- certainly there's a lot of bad blood between the rest of Middle East and Israel, but provoking Israel is certainly not a good idea.

I liked Khatami. He seemed to be moderate, sensible, and pushed for women's right in Iran. Too bad he had to step down after serving to the full term.

Mechs

12-14-2005, 09:19 PM

From what I've read.....this guy is a prick. Yeah he would have made a good point on the Europeans and how they should have given up their land instead of moving them into where they are now, but thats if this had been 55 years ago. Whats done is done. Get the fuck over it already. Jeez....

"No country is authorised to impose spare-part sanctions against another country. Nothing can justify this," Mr Ahmadinejad said.

........................I was laughing at this for about a minute cause it sounded so stupid :D.

Unactuality

12-14-2005, 10:15 PM

Khameini's the one in charge anyway. The presidents aren't terribly relevant. More liberal ones like Khatami get ignored or marginalized. Crazy ones like this guy do what Khameini wants anyway.

He's only saying what the Iranian leadership (not to mention most of the Middle East) has believed for the last two and a half decades anyway. None of this is exactly a surprise. He's just stupid enough to actually say it officially.

karob

12-15-2005, 12:42 PM

more cheerios

12-15-2005, 02:07 PM

Middle Eastern relations are so headache-inducing that I don't even bother keeping up with them anymore.

Unactuality

12-15-2005, 02:54 PM

Edit: Whoops - misread karob's post.

karob

12-15-2005, 03:04 PM

Hah I was just going to reply with... wtf?!?!

Unactuality

12-15-2005, 03:06 PM

That'll teach me to glance through forums immediately after getting up!

(For the record, I misunderstood his "puppet" comment to be directed at me rather than our buddy in Iran)

FireWolf238

12-15-2005, 10:40 PM

Neon Pink Shoehorn

12-15-2005, 10:55 PM

you know, it used to really piss me off when someone would say that the Holocaust was a myth. My grandfather was a Nazi, he worked in Treblinka, he had photos and diaries or his experiences. When he died, he left me all his... uhm, memorabilia? (I donated it to the Smithsonian... I mean, it was creepy) He didn't talk about it much, but he did go on a pilgramage to visit his camp every year. And cry, wail for forgiveness. I'm not particularly proud of what he chose to do, but, it is what it is.

Unactuality

12-15-2005, 11:27 PM

Are you saying what you think his opinion is, Fire? Or do you actually believe that?

Tactical - Wow. That was a very generous thing you did. Do you know how much that sort of "memorabilia" sells for?

I'm sure the Smithsonian will make better use of it than a private collector, though.

At least he realized what a terrible thing he had done, unlike some who remained firm in their horrid ideology.

Neon Pink Shoehorn

12-16-2005, 12:30 AM

Tactical - Wow. That was a very generous thing you did. Do you know how much that sort of "memorabilia" sells for?

I'm sure the Smithsonian will make better use of it than a private collector, though.

At least he realized what a terrible thing he had done, unlike some who remained firm in their horrid ideology.

uhm... not really. I ebay'ed for some of the things I donated, but they don't have most of them.
I didn't even consider selling them. And the idea would've felt really weird... it does now. I'm not especially proud of my family history, and I'd be uncomfortable with someone celebrating it.

He would get very angry when someone said that the holocaust was a myth, and I guess I understand why he would. I'm certain that he would've liked to pretend it didn't happen, but he was a very practical type of person. I can remember him saying that anyone saying that hasn't spoken to the people on either side who lived through it. At the very least, I can admire him for the fact that he said that this happened, and it was wrong.

Julianne

12-16-2005, 01:00 AM

Gah, This is disgusting. The things that some people will deny is flat out amazing.

Jai

12-16-2005, 08:08 AM

If the US played in the middle east by Iran's rules, theyd nuke all the "evil heathens" into plasma then all die from the resulting damage to the planet.

(Simply put, the Iranian leadership doesnt have the collective mental capacity to consider consequences beyond killing everyone who isnt already their bitch, using religion as the excuse)

karob

12-16-2005, 08:19 AM

It bothers me that so much of the hatred in the middle east is mostly based on religion/history and fueled by politicians and extremist. I think people will continue to follow puppets like the Iranian president until they get some kind of education and realize the error of their ways.

Jai

12-16-2005, 08:26 AM

Im too lazy to dig, but I wouldnt be at all suprised if many forms of education are as illegal in Iran as they were in Afghanistan.

Best way to control a people is to limit the information they have access to. Just look at how China is doing its damnest to censure the internet - they know that free flow of information is the key to both freedom and the complete fucking over of totalistic systems of government.

Its a fact that the average citizen of Soviet Russia in the 1970s thought the idea of Americans all owning their own personal motor vehicle was nothing more than rediculous capitalist propaganda.

karob

12-16-2005, 08:37 AM

North Korea can be thrown in with the rest of those countries. I love how world media portrays the US as a bunch of assholes. They are so biased and the ironic thing is that after some time education/freedom will be all over the globe. Peace will come when they realize that change is necessary. Fuck! Thinking about all this gets me all worked up.

Kass

12-16-2005, 12:11 PM

this guy is not stupid, he is proving the world(iran) that the US is weak and stupid because he can say such outrageous things and get away with it. Had the US played it's role in the middle east by the iranian rules, the iranian leadership would no longer be there

all he is proving is that Iran is pretty much irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. No one is really paying him any attention and that is why he has to pop off with this crap.

jingi893

12-16-2005, 04:14 PM

It's really a shame. When Iran had their revolution it was going well for a while, then these crazy religious fanatics co-opted it. Iran used to be such a modern country. Now the IRC thugs ride around in jeeps with guns making sure the women don't have any make-up on/manicured nails/too much hair poking out of the chador. Well, that's what happens when the only education people get is a strictly interpreted religious one. I'm not talking about most Iranians. From what I read/hear they don't like the current government any better than we here do. But a few wacko's have all the power and calling all the shots. When you have a gun in your face, well sometimes it's better to not speak so openly. I also think that this regime currently in Iran is in for a rough time. Iran/Syria are the next logical step after Iraq.

As for the Holocaust, there was an article in the latest issue of 'Skeptic' magazine that kind of profiled the leading Holocaust denier. The guy's wacky. The problem is the more you suppress these types of people, the longer it takes them to go away. If these people are allowed to have their platform most people see through the bullshit.

Unactuality

12-16-2005, 05:12 PM

Ebay isn't always the best place to look, especially for more unique items. It is absolutely flooded with cheap fakes too. If you're really interested, you can go to sites like www.axishistory.com or www.feldgrau.com and ask about the items on their forums. Journals, dogtags, etc. - pretty much any authentic WWII German items are in extremely high demand. Many collectors are simply history buffs who consider it a hobby (albeit an expensive one), although a few disturbing individuals do "celebrate" as well.

I certainly understand being uncomfortable with selling the items, though, and I think your donation of the items was admirable.

The Iranian revolution was indeed a very sad thing. The Shah may not have been the best ruler, but Iran was certainly far better off under him than the Ayatollahs. It is encouraging, at least, that there is a fairly strong democracy movement underway among many of the younger Iranians. There have been demonstrations and such fairly recently. The police do crack down fairly hard on anything too far out of line though, and you really do not want to the subject of an Iranian police crackdown.

It's a frightening country. I recall a recent story of a teenage girl who was hung from the town square for having sex outside of marriage.

FireWolf238

12-16-2005, 09:19 PM

all he is proving is that Iran is pretty much irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. No one is really paying him any attention and that is why he has to pop off with this crap.

proving that iran is irrelavent? it's like Stalin claiming that the ussr is irrelavent, such statements are against laws of nature. for iran iran is the center of the world, and no one there sees any ither posabilities, those who ask why are wiped out. iran is showing how strong it is, it can insult the all mighty USA and get away with it. for image's sake, you can picture the scene with a typical bullies, the middle east is full of bullies, and US is a much stronger one that the middle east fears. iraq was wiped out(for the dictators iraq ans saddam are the same thing) so the other dictators get scared, now iran os showing the US is not aw storng as it seems to be because it can be insulted and not due anything about it.

Jon885

12-17-2005, 12:40 AM

I believe the Holocaust happened but I can sympathize with the Palestinians because their land was basically taken over by whole other group of people. Sort of a raw deal I guess. I forget how this was rationalized.

I think the jews think it was their land before the Palestinians were there and then vice versa. not too good with world history.

mangamuscle

12-17-2005, 01:36 AM

I am sick of people dennying the holocaust. Yes, every time someone simply says "holocaust" or "the holocaust" they are dennying a bigger truth, the nazi holocaust was but one holocaust in mankind history (and probably will not be the last). Has nobody heard about the indian holocaust done by the U.S.A. or the cartaginese holocaust done by the romans? What is next, calling bush's "war on terrorism" simply "the war" as if there were no others?

the_hdk

12-17-2005, 03:50 PM

Jai

12-17-2005, 04:40 PM

Most of the more arab countries use ex-soviet arms, not american.

Ineluki

12-17-2005, 05:05 PM

I think that the Iranian president had a point about making a Jewish country within German borders... that would be more reasonable.

but that there was no holocaust, that's plain stupid.
my grand-grand-father died in auschwitz and my grandfather survived auschwitz. It pisses me off that some people 'think' that.

the problem in middle-east is that it's not one-sided. the west (USA mostly)
has been selling guns in wars for both sides. And now you get the effect of that. The fault of the middle east is that they blame someone for their miseries and not wanting to change their point of view.

A Jewish country within Germany? Not a really good idea. Do you think all these people would leave their homes, where they found a shelter from persecution and go to "Nazi" Germany? At least the old ones, which barely survived this period of time, definitly would not like to live in the same country as the people, who tried to kill them all. And where should they go to? Germany is not such a big country...7million people from israel...there is not enough space left for them.

@mangamuscle:

The main difference is quite obvious: Yes, they all killed many people. Yes, everyone commited a genocide. But as far as i know, Nazi Germany was the only one from all of them which created a whole industry in order to erradicate all "unworthy" life. Just go somewhere and slaugther some guys you don't like is not nice. Building things like Ausschwitz to erradicate everyone of them, even though they where never dangerous or did something wrong...that's sick. Is this difference great enough to say "The Holocaust is special"?

mangamuscle

12-17-2005, 05:51 PM

Building things like Ausschwitz to erradicate everyone of them, even though they where never dangerous or did something wrong...that's sick. Is this difference great enough to say "The Holocaust is special"?
Not at all, is merely a consequence of living in "modern times". "lf a technological feat is possible, man will do it. Almost as though it's wired into the core of our being.". If the british had colonized america after the industrial revolution, you can bet the indians would have been industrialy procesed as the jew and other minorities were in nazi germany.

Jai

12-17-2005, 05:59 PM

I would bet against it.

NERD

12-17-2005, 06:49 PM

Well, the German politicians were trying to get Iran off from the World Cup after the commentary about Holocaust from Ahmadinejad- talk about being rational. Politics have nothing to do with sports, at least in its core.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051216/ap_on_sp_so_ne/soc_wcup_iran_ban

Unactuality

12-17-2005, 06:52 PM

Your proposition is as inaccurate as it is disgusting and offensive, manga.

Read some history before you start drawing direct parallels like that.

NERD, there is a fairly long history of nations using sporting events and such as vehicles for political protest. For example, our boycott of the 1980 Moscow Olympics.

jingi893

12-17-2005, 06:54 PM

Most of the more arab countries use ex-soviet arms, not american.
Not quite true. For example, most of the arms used in the Iraq/Iran war were supplied by the U.S. in the hopes that both sides would kill each other off. Saudi, Egypt, Jordan and quite a few others use U.S. arms. In fact, the biggest arms client that U.S. has is Israel. After they tweak the weapons they sell 'em off to other countries. See "Fateful Triangle" for more details and facts/figures/statistics.

Unactuality

12-17-2005, 06:59 PM

NERD

12-17-2005, 07:00 PM

NERD, there is a fairly long history of nations using sporting events and such as vehicles for political protest. For example, our boycott of the 1980 Moscow Olympics.

That's why I said 'in its core'. I know those things happen and happened before- Berlin Olympic was nothing but a big propaganda drive for Nazi Germany, for example. But it's not supposed to be that way, people should be able to participate and enjoy sports, regardless of the politics. I wonder how many Iranian soccer players actually give a crap about what their presidents said, compared to how much they want to play and represent their country in World Cup.

mangamuscle

12-17-2005, 07:16 PM

Read some history before you start drawing direct parallels like that.
Would you elaborate on that or dare I say, can you elaborate on that?

mangamuscle

12-17-2005, 07:19 PM

Iran is not an Arab nation
Would you please share your definition of "arab nation" with the rest of us?

Ineluki

12-17-2005, 07:28 PM

That's why I said 'in its core'. I know those things happen and happened before- Berlin Olympic was nothing but a big propaganda drive for Nazi Germany, for example. But it's not supposed to be that way, people should be able to participate and enjoy sports, regardless of the politics. I wonder how many Iranian soccer players actually give a crap about what their presidents said, compared to how much they want to play and represent their country in World Cup.

Rational politicians? Sounds odd to me :D

And you have to see the special relationship between Germany and the topic - the Holocaust. Germans in general are very allergic to this topic...and when you say something like this as the president of a country you have to take the responsibility for the reactions which may take place. Maybe they are not as rational as they should be, but i think we germans simply can't tolerate something like this! Maybe wrong reaction, but at least a clear statemant of anger and that's the important thing for me.

Anyway, the FIFA already said this won't happen. So it's not a problem we have to worry about...

Unactuality

12-17-2005, 07:33 PM

I'll elaborate on both points:

While the history of US interactions with American Indians has more than its share of dark spots, there is nothing remotely comparable with the systematic genocide of Nazi Germany.

An Arab nation is a nation whose population contains a majority of Arabs. Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia & coastal friends, Kuwait, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon.

jingi893

12-17-2005, 07:51 PM

Um, yes, Jai's statement is correct.

Iran is not an Arab nation, and Iraq received far more military hardware from the USSR than from the USA.

The USA did not supply Israel with weapons until around 1970 or so. The USSR had been supplying Arab states with weaponry for much longer than that, and continued to do so until it dissolved. We did supply Iraq with weapons during some of the 1980s. The USSR supplied Iraq with weapons for much longer than that.

If you examine the weapons inventory of Arab nations, you will find the majority of it is Soviet in origin.
Not from everything I've read and seen. Like I said, start with a book called "Fateful Triangle". You could also peruse "The No-Nonsense Guide to The Arms Trade" and a good account of the Iran/Iraq war is in "Saddam Hussein:A Political Biography" as well as back history of Cold-War/Pre-Cold War politics/economics in "World Orders Old and New". We've been supplying everybody just as long. We just don't advertise. The Iran/Contra affair wasn't the first time we did something like that.

In my original post I stated that Israel is the largest armaments client of the U.S.. Israel is a big supplier of araments to other countries in the middle-east. They buy from us, tweak the weapons a bit, then turn around and sell them to other countries. As for the Soviet Union, everyone knows that history has shown us that the missile gap turned out to be false, that they were never close to us. They struggled to keep up with us. Soviet economy was moribund by the seventies and bankrupted by the eighties. While they did sell weapons to their client states, so did we and at a greater rate.

As for supplying Iraq with "some" weapons in the 80's, the U.S. was the one that kept the Iran/Iraq war going as long as it did. We supplied both sides with just enough weapons to keep fighting, but not enough to win the war. If we hadn't been supplying them with weapons, it would have ended in less time than it actually did. Read Brzynski's "The Grand Chess Board".

I also realize that Iran is not an arab nation. I have plenty Persian friends.

mangamuscle

12-17-2005, 08:51 PM

While the history of US interactions with American Indians has more than its share of dark spots, there is nothing remotely comparable with the systematic genocide of Nazi Germany.
I fail to see why you fail to acknowledge that the genocide done by the british settlers and their descendents against the so called native americans was anything but systematic. Estimates range from 2 million to 15 million deaths (some estimates are even higher). Do you think the term "The only good indian is a dead indian" was coined in Hollywood?

An Arab nation is a nation whose population contains a majority of Arabs. Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia & coastal friends, Kuwait, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon.
I found your comment rather out of place, we have been using the "arab nation" term to put in one block the nations in the persian gulf that the US has been selling weapons to. Yet you suddenly say "Hey, Iran is not a member of that block" yet you must remember about Iran-contras, so I fail to find any logic whatsoever in your comment. I though that maybe your definition of "iran nation" would have some piece of unknown information but is does not.

jingi893

12-17-2005, 11:57 PM

Your proposition is as inaccurate as it is disgusting and offensive, manga.

Read some history before you start drawing direct parallels like that.

Ever read "American Holocaust" by Ward Churchhill? Genocide was practiced against the Native Americans. For a start, the settlers would purposely give disease infected blankets to the Native, knowing full well of what the effects would be. I've read estimates of from 5 to 13 million deaths.

Jackson was nicknamed the "Indian Killer" and policies were put into place knowing full well that they would lead to the destruction of Indian culture and the decimation of the Indian population.

You should listen to your own advice and read some history. Start with "A People's History of the United States, 1492 to Present". It's a quick read for it's length and there are quite a few chapters on the Indians.