Nice guys DON'T finish last

[Star Market]

I've been a passive reader of Az's editorials since January when a friend sent me the link. Among the more interesting of his works (aside from his widely read "I am a Japanese School Teacher" series) is his "Mating Rituals" series which seems to castigate the role of the nice guy. I've always considered myself to be a nice guy, and much of what was said was true for a time, and I remained miserably single. FOR A TIME. A recent experience was strong enough to persuade me enough to actually register for the forums and let all the nice guys here know that nice guys DON'T finish last. I'd like to qualify that statement with, "as long as you're confident."

Without getting into intimate details, I'll describe my experience succintly. I met girl. Girl completely wrote me off. A month later, girl realized nice guys are actually a good thing - or, I grew on her. Girl opened up. We hooked up. Girl is completely into me. I am really into her. The end.

Granted, it took me a month, and granted, I have incredibly good looks on my side (hey...she says I'm hot :) ), but I think the main thrust of Az's "Mating Rituals" series was to be confident (though some of the prescribed methods involved being an ass...), which I am. Women smell confidence like dogs smell fear. So, in the end, nice guys DON'T finish last - as long as you're confident.

[Y.T.]

Well said.
But, if you want to be confident, you have to have something to back
that up. Otherwise, you are living on borrowed time.
Like the U.S. Economy...... or, at least people who
believe that economic growth based solely on borrowing
and spending money for vanitites is somehow fragile say so.
Government jobs are not really productive, after all.
We'll see.

[Praetorian]

Well said.
But, if you want to be confident, you have to have something to back
that up. Otherwise, you are living on borrowed time.
Like the U.S. Economy...... or, at least people who
believe that economic growth based solely on borrowing
and spending money for vanitites is somehow fragile say so.
Government jobs are not really productive, after all.
We'll see.

I really don't see the connection between "Nice guys don't finish last" and "The US economy".


Maybe it's just me.

[Myrsilus]

Nope... I saw no connection either. That or it seemed really inappropriate.

Congrats though. Sometimes it does work, but it only seems to happen when a woman mentally matures. And yep, I agree... if you have no confidence, you will not get anywhere.

[stillbornsinger]

Well said.
But, if you want to be confident, you have to have something to back
that up. Otherwise, you are living on borrowed time.
Like the U.S. Economy...... or, at least people who
believe that economic growth based solely on borrowing
and spending money for vanitites is somehow fragile say so.
Government jobs are not really productive, after all.
We'll see.

It seems more and more like you're just going out of your way to find reasons to bash the US. There's a time an place for airing out your political views, and this thread isn't it... http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif


Star Market- Thats great! I hope the very best for you and your new girlfriend, go get em' tiger!

I don't agree with Az's theory so much either, I think that most nice guys usually have traits that are not appealing to females, but it isn't just because they are nice guys. I consider myself to be a "nice to moderate" guy and I've got no problems in the relationship department. I wont let a girl walk all over me either though, but I wont be an ass.

[Urban~Ninja]

Well i dunno, i rekon girls like Nice Guys but only for a short time, i stay meduim, im not nice or mean. Nice guys just arnt i guess surprising with what they do to keep most girls interested.

[stillbornsinger]

Well i dunno, i rekon girls like Nice Guys but only for a short time, i stay meduim, im not nice or mean. Nice guys just arnt i guess surprising with what they do to keep most girls interested.

being nice doesn't mean being boring... I know some boring mean guys too...

Just nicely suggest she ride your motorcycle with you, or nicely suggest she try a new position :D

[Jay]

Star Market - nice job, mate. It proves that nice guys really CAN get girls, even if it does take a month.

[Y.T.]

It means.. that if you are confident and do shit.
You are a jerk.
That's all.

[Jay]

It means.. that if you are confident and do shit.
You are a jerk.
That's all.

I'm confident that I can win the writing contest.

I'm a jerk?

[Pfalzer]

yeah Jay-man u are quite the jerky jerk...

[KujiInRetsu]

Eh... big difference between being confident and being an arrogant dipshit; for one, confident nice guys usually have the balls to back up their statements. Arrogant dipshits on the other hand... well... one could say I enjoy seeing them beat on and humiliated.

Star Market, good going. You've given hope to the rest of us nice guys who're sick of seeing the asshole getting the pretty girl and seeing her mistreated. Of course, you are self-declaredly "hot" (and apparently said claim is backed up by the girl), so I suppose you've got that going for you.

[Kragar]

Then again, I think Az got into that in one of his essays. IIRC, he said that the most successful daters are the nice guys who have confidence and know what they want, because they combine the qualities of "nice guys" and arrogant dickwads: sensitivity and selfishness.

If he didn't say it, it was someone on this forum.

[Jay]

Eh... big difference between being confident and being an arrogant dipshit; for one, confident nice guys usually have the balls to back up their statements. Arrogant dipshits on the other hand... well... one could say I enjoy seeing them beat on and humiliated.

Exactly. Which is why I was quite... well, blown away would be the phrase... at what Zakalwe said.

Pfalzer: STFU. :p

[Kragar]

Oh, I don't know. I understand what he's trying to say, but it shows that he doesn't really understand either the economy or relationships.

He's striking a pose, that's all.

[KujiInRetsu]

One my friends is a pretty nice guy, not an arrogant dipshit, and as far as another man's opinion goes, is "pretty hot". He has four girls hanging off his arms at this point. He even needed to let some of them off, for fear he felt he would be leading them on.

Tell me that nice guys can't get girls. Tell me.

Now that said, there are different situations for different times/areas. Sometimes, it works out the way it should, that the nice guys get the girls and the assholes get left out in the cold. Apparently in Japan, or at least the part of Kyoto Az lives in, it works the opposite way. Being half a world away in a culture that sweeps shameful issues under the rug will do that, though.

[morganlefayw]

Well done, Star Market. And from reading, it looks like this is mostly guys who are responding. Soooo, I'm a chick. And I must say that as far as I know, my girl friends and I DEFIANTLY prefer the nice guys- and this is experiance. They're easier to be around, I don't have to feel intimadated or feel that he's just looking at me from a "can i get her into bed?" viewpoint. I prefer the nice guy b/c they're the one's who prefer you for your personality and treat you like the awesome human being you are. And contrary to what everyone thinks, nice guys are MUCH more fascinating then those tough looking guys who don't have a brain in their head. Not to offened anyone.
Sooo, yeah.

[Mushu]

where do i find this thing you call confident :confused: :D

Star Market - well said mate, i somehow felt that maybe ppl would misundertand Az

Btw i see the whole thing as a game, inorder to play it you need confident, like you need feet inorder to play succer :eek:
And if you got good confidents you can play the game well and sometimes win, not always(i got a theory i wanna run by you guys, but im late for streetbasked, so ill do it later) but when you win the price is O LORD O MIGHTY you know it :D

[tekkan]

Tell me that nice guys can't get girls. Tell me.

But you see, all those nice guys are "hot".

What about the not so "hot" guys.

Not that I really care...cause you know.....I'm hot...>_> <_< >_>

[KujiInRetsu]

That's true. The looks always play into the equation. I'm just saying, and so was Star Market, that not all nice guys finish last. There are those that just have that extra leg-up on the asshole competition.

I'm not one of them. :(

EDIT: For extra impact, that friend I was talking to you about, all those girls hanging off his arm were Asian. He's white.

[tekkan]

EDIT: For extra impact, that friend I was talking to you about, all those girls hanging off his arm were Asian. He's white.

I hate your friend. >:(

Damn white guys stealing all our women!

Seriously. Has anyone else noticed this yet? You go back to some asian country, the girls are all memorized by the foreign guy. Cock Blocked.

Then you go back to North America and all the asian girls are "white-washed" and prefer white guys. Cock Blocked again.

Thats it. I'm gonna go pull a Micheal jackson.

[TygressVirgo]

I like nice guys. There was even a study done that said nerds/geeks (i didn't give them that title, i prefer nice guys) make better husbands and fathers. For me it's about personality, I like a guy who can insult a bonehead, and the bonehead won't know they are being insulted. Although the bonehead would have to deserve it :). In a relationship, the physical stuff is great and all, but it's all about communication and conversation.

[Rogue_7]

Month? Hah, try years. YEARS. Fuck women.

[hidethedrone]

It's not about being nice or being an ass...

It's about keeping her interest.

Anyways, just be you, that's far more interesting than being an ass or a nice guy. Me I'm a big dork, you can't take me anywhere or do anything with me.

So gratz OP! Keep it up!

[hapacheese]

That's one more score for Nice Guys!

Seriously, I tried the whole "asshole" thing before, and it made me miserable. I *felt* like a dick the whole time, and hated myself. The trick to being a nice guy is, as I've said before, treating everyone fairly and not allowing yourself to be stepped all over.

Being nice != being gullible and stupid. When a girl needs help, I'll be the first one there to help out. But, I do not expect anything in return, and I do it if they truly need help (or to simply be a gentleman). Knowing when to say "no" is key... and if the girl gives you the cold shoulder simply because you didn't help her move apartments for the 4th time, shrug it off.

[ZMarie]

That's one more score for Nice Guys!

Seriously, I tried the whole "asshole" thing before, and it made me miserable. I *felt* like a dick the whole time, and hated myself. The trick to being a nice guy is, as I've said before, treating everyone fairly and not allowing yourself to be stepped all over.

Question, hapa (if I may call you so :) ). I address this to you since you've admitted that you've been the "nice guy" and the "asshole". Was there a difference in the girls that you were involved with?

I'm just curious.

[hapacheese]

Hapa, cheese, fromage... anything works for me :)

Well, the asshole stage was a two-part process.

I had been a nice guy (the kind that got stepped all over) and was cheated on three times by one girl. After having "successfully won back her full devotion," I realized that it wasn't all that I had hoped for (meaning: no angels descending from heaven singing hymns, no fluffy bunnies emerging from the woods to watch us as we strolled through the park etc), and grew bitter. I ended up using her for a while out of a desire for revenge, and ended up hating myself over it.

I got to college, and after a few confidence boosting episodes, grew a little cocky. While I never really slept around or anything (was too afraid of catching something), I fooled around with a few girls at a time, juggling a few casual relationships, not really caring about the outcome either way. The women that I tended to hook up with were wild, passionate, but oh-so-unstable. There was much drama to be had by all.

Eventually, I ended up falling in love with a girl, moved in with her, and she turned out to be bipolar (as I've mentioned in another thread). The experience tore me apart, exposed all my own flaws and all the defense mechanisms I had set up to protect myself, and despite nearly breaking my will, ended up making me stronger.

Now, I am as relaxed and level-headed as they come (if I may say so myself). I returned to my former "nice guy" self, with more confidence, and a lot more wisdom, so I never let myself get stepped all over. I will treat everyone with equal respect and if they fail to reciprocate, I simply choose not to deal with them.

Due to my new found attitude, I ended up getting together with my current lady (who is now my fiance), who is the sweetest person on the face of the Earth. Had I met her at any other point in my life, I would have screwed things up somehow along the way, but thanks to being level-headed, we have a relationship based on mutual respect and understanding, compromise (in a good way), and friendship.

[Shadowknight]

All of this reminded me of a webpage about a guy who literally calls himself "Niceguy" who's currently living in Japan. His webpage appears to be gone, so here's a link to a Google cached version. He comes off as utterly psychotic when it comes to non-Japanese women.
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:RKELAlXl2GcJ:niceguy.dearingfilm.co m/index.php+&hl=en&lr=&strip=0

[tekkan]

American woman are spoiled. :P

But so are American men. :D

[Balain]

I am a nice guy and I don't finish last. The thing is yes assholes get girls. There are a lot of girls that like assholes. The thing is I don't want a girl that likes assholes. So it takes awhile to weed out the good women sometimes.

[Y.T.]

Eh... big difference between being confident and being an arrogant dipshit; for one, confident nice guys usually have the balls to back up their statements. Arrogant dipshits on the other hand... well... one could say I enjoy seeing them beat on and humiliated.
Well. Backing up claims is not only about balls.
It's about efficiency. Ability to act.
And, unfortunately, assholes are quite often
very efficient. They don't allow anything to slow them down.
You are likely to admit that it's easier to frustrate a
nice guy than some egomaniacal control freak.

I also love humiliating arrogant dipshits.... it's sweet.
Although, among people I know (computer geeks mostly),
arrogant dipshits are in short supply.
(they lack the patience to mess with computers)
IF I studied law on the other hand...
(I would be dead)

[NeoXC]

Nice Guy+Confidence=Guy that's in between. They're the kind of guys girls want. I think we're going into extremes now, more or less. (You're either a Jerk or Nice Guy.) However, the guys that are in between are hard to spot and don't usually flaunt it. The jerks show off their confidence more and "advertise" it. A lot of girls would tend to opt for that kinda guy, instead.

[hapacheese]

Actually, Nice Guy + Confidence can sometimes = a guy that seems cocky from afar, but upon closer inspection, turns out to be a really nice guy :)

At least, that's what my fiance told me :D

[ZMarie]

Nice Guy+Confidence=Guy that's in between. They're the kind of guys girls want. I think we're going into extremes now, more or less. (You're either a Jerk or Nice Guy.) However, the guys that are in between are hard to spot and don't usually flaunt it. The jerks show off their confidence more and "advertise" it. A lot of girls would tend to opt for that kinda guy, instead.

I don't know if most girls opt for that kind of guy. Most often, the jerks see a girl they are interested in and pay a lot of attention to her, or show off for her. Girl finds this flattering and returns attention to guy. Honestly, a lot of time a girl is with a guy like this is because of the self confidence boost that said jerk gave them at first. That's all they remember.

It's not always so much a matter of the Nice Guy's confidence, but the girl's as well.

[Roxie]

alot of guys can't seem to get that there IS a middle between

door mat<---------------------geniune nice guy------------------------->asshole.

alot of guys seem to confuse door mat with nice guy. OR they're only nice b/c they believe they'll get something from it, which is only an asshole in disguise.

[spaik]

Although, among people I know (computer geeks mostly),
arrogant dipshits are in short supply.

are you serious? i find computer geek culture to be full of them. they look down on anyone they don't consider in their 'in' group, and trying to have a conversation about anything they are interested in is like facing down a train. you're not gonna get anywhere, and he's not gonna care about anything you have to say, just bulldozing over you with his opinions.

i like computers and i study computing science. i like games, and i like playing them. but i think geek culture breeds such incredible 'us vs them' animosity, it is ridiculous. the most arrogant people i have ever met in my entire life, have all been from one of three groups:

1) computer geek culture. everything from the arrogant 14 yearold snot at my university, to the 30 year old undergraduate who runs only opensource programs, these people are some of the most dense and levelheaded guys i've ever met. MS nerds, Linux nerds, Apple nerds, whatever. The normal and well adjusted people are great. The ones who aren't are just off the fucking deep end.

2) anime geek culture. Hooooooooooooly shit. These guys are ninjas. They seem like quiet shy people. Then you mention their one obsession, whether its naruto or fucking sailor moon or some obscure experimental shit done in the 80s, and it's game on.

3) intellectual geek culture. there are the people who take every conversation way too seriously. they take themselves way too seriously. i've met so many people like this from being in debate clubs and stuff like that. i mean, theres also a forum equiv for these people too. i once had some guy post in a WoW forum about how having fun ruining someone else's playing experience in WoW by griefing, is due to a neurological condition that also carrys over into their real life interactions. he went off to post links to about 6-7 different psychological research papers, talking about how he was studying neuroscience and stuff. i mean, come on.

seriously, i find people who aren't obsessively drawn into a culture that glorifies expert knowledge to be far less arrogant and ignorant. when your 'rep' in a culture is determined by the amount of esoteric information in your culture, you get people with oversized egos all the time.

[Star Market]

I wasn't expecting this large of a response, but it's been interesting reading everything everyone has had to say on the matter. I would agree that the self confidence of the woman comes into play as well as her maturity. Being the nice guy in high school didn't get me anywhere, and I'm sure that is reflective of the relative confidence and maturity level of 16-18 year old women. Admittedly, if one were to subscribe to Roxie's "guy spectrum" I leaned more toward the "door mat" sector in high school. You remember that one guy who never had a girlfriend in high school...or had kissed a girl? Yeah...that was me. On graduation night, however, I had a 4 hour makeout session with this one girl I had been friends with for 2 years...long story.

In graduate studies now and having moved more toward the "genuine nice guy" sector of the spectrum, while I don't initially stop hearts or take breaths away, I grow on the women I hang out with. While I focused on one girl in particular recently, to be honest, I have a good chance with any of the women I regularly hang out with that aren't taken. Confidence is key.

[Thespis]

I've been a passive reader of Az's editorials since January when a friend sent me the link. Among the more interesting of his works (aside from his widely read "I am a Japanese School Teacher" series) is his "Mating Rituals" series which seems to castigate the role of the nice guy. I've always considered myself to be a nice guy, and much of what was said was true for a time, and I remained miserably single. FOR A TIME. A recent experience was strong enough to persuade me enough to actually register for the forums and let all the nice guys here know that nice guys DON'T finish last. I'd like to qualify that statement with, "as long as you're confident."

Without getting into intimate details, I'll describe my experience succintly. I met girl. Girl completely wrote me off. A month later, girl realized nice guys are actually a good thing - or, I grew on her. Girl opened up. We hooked up. Girl is completely into me. I am really into her. The end.

Granted, it took me a month, and granted, I have incredibly good looks on my side (hey...she says I'm hot :) ), but I think the main thrust of Az's "Mating Rituals" series was to be confident (though some of the prescribed methods involved being an ass...), which I am. Women smell confidence like dogs smell fear. So, in the end, nice guys DON'T finish last - as long as you're confident.
I agree. Had an experience along that line just last night. Girl I've known for about a month and half called me yesterday and asked to hang out. We went down to the beach, Lake Michigan, and walked the pier talking a while then went to a late night restaurant and talked for hours. Several times she made comments about us having a lot in common, how much fun she has with me and I make her laugh, how I have a balance of nice guy with attitude, how I'm confident and open and don't care if others don't think much of me, and how easy it is to talk with me and have good conversation. Nothing physical has happened between us, and I don't have any expectations along that line, but if it does, fine. In the meantime, simply enjoying the friendship.

[ArkhanTerra]

I'm still a firm believer in nice guys finishing last, at least in the short run.

Doesn't help that I don't get any though...

[Azrael]

It's been awhile since I've written those articles.

First off, I'm happy you've found someone you're truly interested in, Star.

Do I still believe that nice guys finish last? Yep.

I'm still trying to think of the best way to explain this. Girls want a guy who is stronger than they are. This is more or less the bottom line. You can be a doormat nice guy and actually have girls be into you...the only problem is, that those girls will be under you on the food chain...the dust under the doormat or something.

Assholes get girls by default because they are strong...stronger than everyone else you could say. This naturally attracts women.

Going the friends-first route is generally not recommended. But it's possible. So long as 1. you establish yourself as being stronger than her, and 2. you do this very early on, before you are filed away in that "friend" category, never to return. But even still, this way it's almost like you have to be chosen by the girl, like you are applying for her boyfriend position and she finally accepts.

I simply got tired of being an applicant. I wanted her to be MY applicant. I wanted to be the interviewer. I wanted to choose who I wanted, rather than wait around and hope some girl picked me. Simply, I wanted control. Such a thing is possible, and you don't have to become an asshole to do it...as David DeAngelo says, it takes the right mix of "cocky and funny."

At any rate, congrats on the new relationship.

[mediocre]

as David DeAngelo says, it takes the right mix of "cocky and funny."


Wow, a dyd/fs quote.


But there is a slight mistake, many people (guys and girls) don't want someone stronger than them, they want someone they perceive as stronger then them. The whole 'moving up the ladder' phenomenom. Which is why the entire pivot/social proofing games are ... there.

But the biggest problem that "nice" guys have is that they think dating/meeting girls is all about impressing the girl. Most don't have a standard of women for themselves to judge a woman by: "It's a girl... good enough". That in effect relates to a zero self-worth state.

For some people, it takes a bit of time to change one's state. Alot of falling on the face, alot of dealing with "one-itis", alot of the other simple 'games' that people play to build self-worth, a positive state of mind, and actual confidence.

"Nice Guy" doesnt mean caring, or understanding. "Nice Guy" = the guy who thinks bribing women with dinner,gifts,etc is a way to form a relationship.

[Star Market]

We're going to need a working definition of "nice guy" because I think the whole discussion sort of hinges on it.

When I say I'm a nice guy, that means I do the following: hold doors open for ladies, stand at the table until they've sat, pay for dates (for the first two, I pay; after that we go dutch or we alternate. Haven't had any problems with this system so far), buy them flowers, say nice things about them, try to engage them intellectually, and establish a core friendship based on trust and mutual respect.

If you think nice guys don't have standards, think again. If I can't have an intelligent conversation with a woman, she gets kicked to the curb. If she starts taking my "training" for granted - yeah, that's right, I'm a momma's boy and proud of it - she gets kicked to the curb. If I'm a means to an end, she gets kicked to the curb. Nice does not equal pushover in my book - been there, done that, got the tee-shirt, and won't be a pushover ever again.

[Thespis]

We're going to need a working definition of "nice guy" because I think the whole discussion sort of hinges on it.

When I say I'm a nice guy, that means I do the following: hold doors open for ladies, stand at the table until they've sat, pay for dates (for the first two, I pay; after that we go dutch or we alternate. Haven't had any problems with this system so far), buy them flowers, say nice things about them, try to engage them intellectually, and establish a core friendship based on trust and mutual respect.

If you think nice guys don't have standards, think again. If I can't have an intelligent conversation with a woman, she gets kicked to the curb. If she starts taking my "training" for granted - yeah, that's right, I'm a momma's boy and proud of it - she gets kicked to the curb. If I'm a means to an end, she gets kicked to the curb. Nice does not equal pushover in my book - been there, done that, got the tee-shirt, and won't be a pushover ever again.
*Applauds*

[Myrsilus]

Indeed. That's what a nice guy is to me. Well done. I'm a mamma's boy, too... Just thought I'd mention it.

[mediocre]

We're going to need a working definition of "nice guy" because I think the whole discussion sort of hinges on it.




A nice guy is when a girls says to you "You are a nice guy, but...".


That means you are a 'nice guy'.


It doesn't mean you are nice, or thoughtful, or caring, or whatever (granted, you might be, but that isnt the point). It just means you are a 'nice guy'.

[Expert Insomniac]

Well, after lurking around the message boards for months, I have found a topic where my arrogance keeps insisting that a response from me is needed! For, although I am only eighteen, after participating and watching dating in high school and college, as well as watching my mother go through the dating experience, I know the secret of why the nice guy does not get women!

Now, looks do play a part with some women, but not all. I have dated many nice guys who I've only been emotionally attracted to. And while my current incredibly nice guy boy is very attractive, we were friends for two and a half years before we started dating. So yes, nice guys CAN and DO get women. Even if you're not (insert random lusty celebrity), and even if you're friends first. I'm living with two other women next year, and both of them are in relationships with nice guys as well.

However, I have also turned down many "nice guys." Guys who were so sweet, so wonderful, some of whom were very attractive, yet I could NEVER date them.

I'll explain.

It kind of is a confidence thing, but it goes deeper than that. There are three types of nice guys (that I can currently think of) who are not technically nice: they're wimpy. DO NOT be wimpy guy.

Guy #1: The "In Love With Love" Guy

This is the kind of guy who will make it clear that he desperately wants to be a boyfriend, to be kind, and caring. He dreams at night of buying flowers for that special someone, and during philosophy he doodles plans of a moonlight picnic on a mountain top overlooking the city. And he wants you to be there.

The problem? He wants you, or Keisha, or Leslie, or Diane, or Bianca. Just about anything with a Y chromosome.

Many people go through periods where they really want to be in a relationship. But girls don't want you to want to be in a relationship: they want you to want to be in a relationship with THEM. They want to feel special, not like you'll be with any of twenty women who say yes.

Love the woman, not the relationship. When you want to be with someone specific and not just with someone, you'll fare a lot better.

Guy #2: The Clone Guy

You like ballet? So do I! Midgets wrestling in Jello? My favorite sport! Oooh, turn up the Christina Aguilera single you've had on repeat for the past hour!

Now, there's nothing wrong with liking the same things as the girl you're into. And there's nothing wrong with exploring a girl's interest to see if you're into it. (Case in point: I never read manga until my boyfriend had me borrow some of his, and now i'm hooked.) HOWEVER, if you automatically pretend to like and dislike the same exact things as the girl you're into... that's just lame. If I wanted someone exactly like myself, I'd sit at home watching Family Guy, eating brownies, and masturbating every night.

So if you love Garth Brooks and the girl you like detests country, don't throw out your CD's. You can still be a nice guy, and play the System of a Down CD you both like when she's in the car, but don't take down those posters just yet. And if the girl loves ballet and you can't tell a tour jete from a plie, don't lie about how Swan Lake changed your life. We'll know you're lying. The nice guy buys you tickets to the ballet on your birthday and drinks lots of caffiene to stay awake. The wimp guy has no opinions and will bore you to death by mindlessly agreeing with your every move.

Guy #3: The Worshipper

I once had a guy tell me that my body was like a temple to me, and he didn't even want to touch me because he was afraid of spoiling me. How sweet, right?

No. NonononoNO.

Feel free to tell me I'm pretty, intelligent, sweet, kind, etc., etc. But never at any point insinuate that I am perfect and flawless and free. This causes two problems. One is that I become self conscious of my every action around you. Seeing as how you think I'm perfect, I become terrified of doing something awful like being human that would ruin your ideal. The other problem is that it shows that you're not interested in me, you're interested in the idea of me. If you actually knew me, you would know I'm not perfect. I don't want to date someone who loves me because I have no flaws, I want someone who loves me in spite of my flaws.


Well. This was way longer than it needed to be. Hopefully, at least one person will benefit from this, so I won't be a loser who wasted EVERYONE'S time. G'night!

[Roxie]

awesomeness

Very good. I would agree, expect to say that none of those guys are truly "nice". Not geniunely, but use it to get something, unstead of saying 'hey this is me'

[hapacheese]

I think Star Market and I are on the same page :D

[tekkan]

Well, after lurking around the message boards for months, I have found a topic where my arrogance keeps insisting that a response from me is needed! For, although I am only eighteen, after participating and watching dating in high school and college, as well as watching my mother go through the dating experience, I know the secret of why the nice guy does not get women!

Now, looks do play a part with some women, but not all. I have dated many nice guys who I've only been emotionally attracted to. And while my current incredibly nice guy boy is very attractive, we were friends for two and a half years before we started dating. So yes, nice guys CAN and DO get women. Even if you're not (insert random lusty celebrity), and even if you're friends first. I'm living with two other women next year, and both of them are in relationships with nice guys as well.

However, I have also turned down many "nice guys." Guys who were so sweet, so wonderful, some of whom were very attractive, yet I could NEVER date them.

I'll explain.

It kind of is a confidence thing, but it goes deeper than that. There are three types of nice guys (that I can currently think of) who are not technically nice: they're wimpy. DO NOT be wimpy guy.

Guy #1: The "In Love With Love" Guy

This is the kind of guy who will make it clear that he desperately wants to be a boyfriend, to be kind, and caring. He dreams at night of buying flowers for that special someone, and during philosophy he doodles plans of a moonlight picnic on a mountain top overlooking the city. And he wants you to be there.

The problem? He wants you, or Keisha, or Leslie, or Diane, or Bianca. Just about anything with a Y chromosome.

Many people go through periods where they really want to be in a relationship. But girls don't want you to want to be in a relationship: they want you to want to be in a relationship with THEM. They want to feel special, not like you'll be with any of twenty women who say yes.

Love the woman, not the relationship. When you want to be with someone specific and not just with someone, you'll fare a lot better.

Guy #2: The Clone Guy

You like ballet? So do I! Midgets wrestling in Jello? My favorite sport! Oooh, turn up the Christina Aguilera single you've had on repeat for the past hour!

Now, there's nothing wrong with liking the same things as the girl you're into. And there's nothing wrong with exploring a girl's interest to see if you're into it. (Case in point: I never read manga until my boyfriend had me borrow some of his, and now i'm hooked.) HOWEVER, if you automatically pretend to like and dislike the same exact things as the girl you're into... that's just lame. If I wanted someone exactly like myself, I'd sit at home watching Family Guy, eating brownies, and masturbating every night.

So if you love Garth Brooks and the girl you like detests country, don't throw out your CD's. You can still be a nice guy, and play the System of a Down CD you both like when she's in the car, but don't take down those posters just yet. And if the girl loves ballet and you can't tell a tour jete from a plie, don't lie about how Swan Lake changed your life. We'll know you're lying. The nice guy buys you tickets to the ballet on your birthday and drinks lots of caffiene to stay awake. The wimp guy has no opinions and will bore you to death by mindlessly agreeing with your every move.

Guy #3: The Worshipper

I once had a guy tell me that my body was like a temple to me, and he didn't even want to touch me because he was afraid of spoiling me. How sweet, right?

No. NonononoNO.

Feel free to tell me I'm pretty, intelligent, sweet, kind, etc., etc. But never at any point insinuate that I am perfect and flawless and free. This causes two problems. One is that I become self conscious of my every action around you. Seeing as how you think I'm perfect, I become terrified of doing something awful like being human that would ruin your ideal. The other problem is that it shows that you're not interested in me, you're interested in the idea of me. If you actually knew me, you would know I'm not perfect. I don't want to date someone who loves me because I have no flaws, I want someone who loves me in spite of my flaws.


Well. This was way longer than it needed to be. Hopefully, at least one person will benefit from this, so I won't be a loser who wasted EVERYONE'S time. G'night!



You forgot one

Guy #4: The just wants to get into your pants.

He just wants to get into your pants.


I think Guy #4 is the winner.

[mediocre]

The problem? He wants you, or Keisha, or Leslie, or Diane, or Bianca. Just about anything with a Y chromosome.



While I'm sure the mistake in genetics was unintended, I did laugh nonetheless.

[Expert Insomniac]

Gah... I meant to write without... I suppose that's what I get for posting at three in the morning.

Oh well. It gave you a laugh, and I'm a strong supporter of laughter. So that's all that really matters, isn't it?

[Azrael]

snip
This, I felt, was pretty damned accurate.

...I used to be Nice Guy #1 myself. =/

I don't think it's a bad thing per se, just extremely misguided. I mean, romance is everywhere. You see it in movies and TV, all around you people are holding hands and walking arm and arm and what not. Then the nice guy's female friends will get all buddy-buddy with him and basically use him emotionally but not physically. So then the nice guy feels left out, and really wants something of his own. But then in his drive to get it, he loses focus of the actual target. Plus, these guys don't always have a whole lot of dating experience, so it can be hard to tell what kind of women should just be friends and where the potential for more lies.

The buying stuff for her thing as well...I don't think it's manipulative. It's just the way we're programmed to think from early on. Most nice guys don't go into it thinking "Okay, I bought you this expensive gift! You should love me now!" At least I think anyway. It's been awhile since I reformed myself.

[chobo]

i've just read the Mating Rituals articles and i'm shocked how similar it is to my life (except that i'm not 30 (turn 22 in a few days) and not singel anymore since a few days)

i consider my self as a "nice guy" and so do all of my female friends. and there start's my problem. they are just friends :bang: countless times i heard from them "hey, you're such a nice and good looking guy. you'll make some girl very happy someday". no shit eh? i always wondered how i can make a girl happy if all i get is "friendship"?! and i was wondering for about 6 years now. then 2 months ago i realized being nice isn't enough. because nice leads to friends. good looking? well that only helps to become acquainted with...
so i begun to wonder why all the jerks get the girls? they are jerks, threat her like shit ... but there must be something that atracts girls. well ... i haven't figured it out yet but must be that "strong" thing Az wrote about.

either way. i decided i have to change something. but what? i talked about it with my best (female) friend. i asked her why i don't atract woman? i mean i'm a nice guy and i don't look bad after all. she couldn't tell me really. all i got was a "well you're the "friend typ" of men. i just can't imagin you having a relationship. know what i mean?". wft?! am i doomed to die old and lonely?! but in that moment it hit me. friends... friends... i just figured out that friends and relationship don't fit in one sentence. because it can't work out for some strange reasons...

then at the new year party i've meet this girl. she atracted me from the first moment. "don't try to be her friend, don't try it dumbass. try to be her boyfriend!". now you might think, whats the diffrence? well i can't really tell it you, but my aproach to atract her was just diffrent than the "friend" aproach. so i managed to get her number, dated her 3 times and since last friday she's my girlfriend ^_^

all the years i thought a girl wants to know me a bit better than 3 dates.

moral of the story? listen to az ^_^

i apologize for my bad english. hope you understand it

[Idlethought]

erm...congrats? lol

[General_Admission]

lol, why would you try to be friends with a girl that is hot and you want? That's like befriending a ham sandwhich for the day instead of just eatting it right away. I have never been friends with girls I dated, before or after. Sometimes I wish I was their friend but we just can't seem to click as friends as they usually try to avoid me afterwards and me them. Too awkward I guess. Although one girl still lets me ask her out on dates despite me getting her # and then never calling.

[gyoza]

I'm kind of a 'nice guy', but not quite. I don't fall into any of Expert Insomniac's categories, and I definitely don't do things for women expecting anything in return. But I fit the 'nice guy' characteristics of being nice and lacking in confidence. (19 years going by without a single female expressing any kind of interest in you will do that).

That's one source of my problems with women... the wonderful vicious cycle of confidence shattering. At some point, I realized that many of my peers were hooking up but no girls had ever expressed an interest in me. This caused a slight dip in my self-confidence. Girls like self-confidence. So the lower my confidence goes, the less attractive I become, which in turn further lowers my confidence.

lol, why would you try to be friends with a girl that is hot and you want? That's like befriending a ham sandwhich for the day instead of just eatting it right away. I have never been friends with girls I dated, before or after. Sometimes I wish I was their friend but we just can't seem to click as friends as they usually try to avoid me afterwards and me them. Too awkward I guess. Although one girl still lets me ask her out on dates despite me getting her # and then never calling.

Therein lies my other problem. I will never enter a relationship if it's not going to be long term; if I get into a relationship me and my partner will be working towards marriage. And I believe friendship is just as important as romance in a long-term relationship. So given my beliefs there's no way I can separate love and friendship the way some people do.

Besides that, I just can't pull off the 'jerk' act. The 'jerk' act is easier for the stereotypical 'nice guy' to pull off; if he can act nice to attempt to get laid, he sure as heck can act like a jerk to attempt to get laid. As someone who's nice without ulterior motive, I just can't be a jerk. Some time back when I was young and stupid I decided to give the 'jerk' thing a try. A girl cried as a direct result of something I did, and I wouldn't do it again, not if it landed me a menage-a-trois with Yada Akiko and Jun Ji Hyun.

So I suppose the only thing I can do is to get my confidence up, but the only way to do that is to be perfectly fine with being single, which I obviously am not because I just wrote a long boring essay on my relationship problems...

...suddenly the wonderful catch-22 detailed by Azrael becomes clear.

[General_Admission]

I'm kind of a 'nice guy', but not quite. I don't fall into any of Expert Insomniac's categories, and I definitely don't do things for women expecting anything in return. But I fit the 'nice guy' characteristics of being nice and lacking in confidence. (19 years going by without a single female expressing any kind of interest in you will do that).

That's one source of my problems with women... the wonderful vicious cycle of confidence shattering. At some point, I realized that many of my peers were hooking up but no girls had ever expressed an interest in me. This caused a slight dip in my self-confidence. Girls like self-confidence. So the lower my confidence goes, the less attractive I become, which in turn further lowers my confidence.



Therein lies my other problem. I will never enter a relationship if it's not going to be long term; if I get into a relationship me and my partner will be working towards marriage. And I believe friendship is just as important as romance in a long-term relationship. So given my beliefs there's no way I can separate love and friendship the way some people do.

Besides that, I just can't pull off the 'jerk' act. The 'jerk' act is easier for the stereotypical 'nice guy' to pull off; if he can act nice to attempt to get laid, he sure as heck can act like a jerk to attempt to get laid. As someone who's nice without ulterior motive, I just can't be a jerk. Some time back when I was young and stupid I decided to give the 'jerk' thing a try. A girl cried as a direct result of something I did, and I wouldn't do it again, not if it landed me a menage-a-trois with Yada Akiko and Jun Ji Hyun.

So I suppose the only thing I can do is to get my confidence up, but the only way to do that is to be perfectly fine with being single, which I obviously am not because I just wrote a long boring essay on my relationship problems...

...suddenly the wonderful catch-22 detailed by Azrael becomes clear.

wtf? Why do you want a relationship so bad. Are you emo or something? And who said I was a jerk to the girls and dumped them all the time. You can date a girl and be friends with her, but the idea is to be her date first, friend later, not rushing into things. If I didn't find the girl attractive then we could just be friends, but if I do, then it's date first.

[gyoza]

I have never been friends with girls I dated, before or after.
You can date a girl and be friends with her, but the idea is to be her date first, friend later, not rushing into things.

:watson:

Though you misunderstand me. I wasn't implying you were a jerk to any of the girls you dated. It's just that some people (yourself included, I guess) are able to have healthy relationships with girls without being 'close friends', i.e. it was a comment on various people's differing ability to separate love and friendship, and not a comment on how nice or how much of a jerk you were. I definitely wasn't trying to pick a fight, and I apologize if I came across as such.

As for the wanting a girlfriend, I'm not emo. But I've never had girls interested in me, and you always want what you don't have. Doesn't make much sense, but I never claimed to be the most rational crayon in the box. :)

[General_Admission]

What I meant was, we aren't friends before or after, but we are friends during. Not friends before because she is too attractive and not after because it is awkward. Does that make sense?

[gyoza]

Ah, that makes more sense, thanks.

[fa11en87]

I have to say, confidence is key! And you don't really need something to back it up either, unless you're a cocky jerk...

[Sobe]

I have to say, confidence is key! And you don't really need something to back it up either, unless you're a cocky jerk...

I actually get to test this theory out today...what's this feeling? Yep that's fear.

[fa11en87]

I actually get to test this theory out today...what's this feeling? Yep that's fear.

Haha tell me how it goes!

[eyez0nme]

Can you be nice and strict, at the same time?




That's me.

[fa11en87]

..What do you mean by strict?

[Overkongen]

I used to finish last all the time, except with my ex, who is an evil evil person though, so I don't count that for much.

But then, something changed. I started studying ninjutsu, which makes me a ninja, and seeing how ninjas are notorious bad-boys, the ladies have been throwing themselves at me ever since.

Just a piece of advice for all you nice guys out there.

[羽之助]

All I did was sit down by absolute chance on a bus next to a girl. Things went from there.

If I could offer one tip ... be confident. If you're overconfident, at least be a good sport and a laugh.

[King Kong]

..What do you mean by strict?

Sexual Bondage.

[Sobe]

Well I'll be...I gave her my number, she gave me hers, and we're setting something up for the weekend...:joytear:

I'm usually shy around girls like her, but everything was so natural, I just went for it. Confidence > All

[Dead Sexy Vocab]

Score one for the nice guys.

Confidence = Key.

I gets it now.

[gyoza]

I'll agree that confidence is key, most of my best relationships (read: friendships) with women have been with people that I'm just very comfortable with. However, confidence varies from person to person, and isn't just something I can turn on or off. There's a girl who clicks with me really well, and despite liking her I feel at ease with her, and she's one of my closer friends. There's also a really cute girl in my hall who I can't even hold a conversation with because I just clam up completely and get nervous... embarassing.

[Jon885]

you mentioned that you were good looking. not sure if anybody has pointed this out or not, but could it be that you got the girl because she finds you attractive, and not just because you're a nice guy? i guess personality comes into play a little, but usually people are more concerned with looks in my opinion.

just noticed how old this topic was. oh well.