Please no religious theology

[co_delphi]

Religion is based upon believing in something that cannot be proven. It uses the ideology setup at some time in the past and rationalizes how everything came to be and how life should be lived. But you must first acknowledge it's possibility to have happened to believe. I am curious as to what causes people to accept a particular religion as truth. In an age where many things are explained, many beliefs that were once a act of god/the gods are now explained, and religious relics are now shown as invalid (watch the discovery channels report on the carbon dating of "The Shroud of Turin".... their reasoning is because there must have been some foreign matter from a later time on the shroud.)

What I am curious about is that so many people heartily accept religion with no question of it's validity, fight because of it, and devote their lives to it. Is this to appease their parents who believe it? Do people enjoy being told how to think? Or is it a way of comforting a person to believing in life after death? Or many untold other answers or combinations of the ones mentioned?

I reinterate that I am not looking for what you particularly believe and why, but more as a question of why you feel the need to believe.

Also in the interest of making this at least a interesting discussion, please refrain from using references to religious literature in your responses.

[Bob]

Religion is accepted because people are arrogant pricks

[shimanotaka]

People believe because it's convenient.
Or they are just too lazy to leave their religion.

It took a few years for me, from that I made the decision to leave the Lutheran church until I actually filled in the papers. I was just too damn lazy! And so are many others I've discussed it with. They don't believe and don't go to church, but are too lazy to do the paperwork.

[nice gaijin]

Religion is accepted because people are arrogant pricks
this also seems to be the reason people speak ill of those who are religious.

[Bob]

this also seems to be the reason people speak ill of those who are religious.

Not quite

..

[nice gaijin]

care to elaborate?

I'm not religious, but I do study them and i'm interested in why other atheists have such animosity towards religion. What makes religious people arrogant pricks?

[Bob]

care to elaborate?

I'm not religious, but I do study them and i'm interested in why other atheists have such animosity towards religion. What makes religious people arrogant pricks?

Religion is based on narcissism.

[Mittens]

Religion is there to enforce morals and eventually make death easier to go through
(On your deathbed: "God will take me to heaven cos ive been a good boy/girl").

Also, because religious people have no imagination as to how the world started... I'm personally a spiritualist / naturalist soooo religion is void in my case, but like nice gaijin, I am too interested in what makes religion so believeable.

[stillbornsinger]

care to elaborate?

I'm not religious, but I do study them and i'm interested in why other atheists have such animosity towards religion. What makes religious people arrogant pricks?


Because organized religion has caused so much more harm than it has done good. Its outlived its usefullness.

The world would be a much nicer place without organized religion.

[Aeneas]

Some reasons why people may believe in religions:

1.) Is there not a social stigma (at least to the masses) in being an aethist? Therefore to avoid problems, people stick with the religion they grew up with. Also, at some catholic schools you get a lower tuition if you are catholic

2.) Like someone else said, easier to not bother with it.

3.) Most people are happy with the status quo, no sense in rocking the boat.

4.) Some people have a gene that makes them more likely to believe in a god. Of course other factors are important such as upbringing. Kinda useless to have a gene and never really exposed to god. This probably has some evolutionary explaintion to help our ancestors cope with death better.

5.) Some people need religion to make the universe "work" in their mind. I mean the universe is impossibly vast, yet has some semblence of order to it, yet everything leads towards chaos. I personally fall into this category.

6.) Also, is it not much easier to work hard if there is an eternal reward in heaven for your suffering and toil? I personally believe most truely "religous" people fall into here and the laziness ones.

7.) My personal favorite: Religion is a conspiracy by the rich and powerful to pacify the masses in order to maintain law and order. No god, no need to be good. The popular idea of anarchy ensues, at least they think so, so they perpetuate the idea that aethists are dissenters and are bad and that religion is good and true and makes sense. I believe this to be true about capitalism as well as religion.

[Henjin]

Can't see why many religious people would want to post here, in view of the hostile environment you guys have just made. It's hard not to look hypocritical when you disparage all religion like you've just done.

[Praetorian]

Some reasons why people may believe in religions:

1.) Is there not a social stigma (at least to the masses) in being an aethist? Therefore to avoid problems, people stick with the religion they grew up with. Also, at some catholic schools you get a lower tuition if you are catholic.


In the Netherlands the massest *are* atheist, and there are still people that choose to be Christian or Muslim.

[paul]

There is nothing wrong with truely religious people. My friend Mary is religious, one of the kindest and most responsible people I've ever met. They pretty much keep it to themselves. Their beliefs guide them through life. I see nothing wrong with that. When asked why she believes in God, she would say: "I just do, I have felt his presence in my life for as long as I can remember."

Many say that its stupid to believe in something that has no physical evidence attached to it, but many religious people I've met are anything but stupid. I think its nice to have something to depend on, even though I don't believe in God, I'm happy for people who find happiness through it.

[dzee]

i'm a free-thinker, and what bothers me most is how the world has come to develop so far. reason enough to believe? suffice to say i sometimes find it easier to believe we've come from a stone age to an age of skyscrapers because of a divine guiding force, or perhaps what some would call 'God'.

[shimanotaka]

i'm a free-thinker, and what bothers me most is how the world has come to develop so far. reason enough to believe? suffice to say i sometimes find it easier to believe we've come from a stone age to an age of skyscrapers because of a divine guiding force, or perhaps what some would call 'God'.
But do we really have to understand how the world developed? Just because all the facts aren't known to us and maybe our brains are still to simple to understand the whole process, we shouldn't necessarily have to choose a sketchy theory to believe in.
I'm quite comfortable with not knowing how the world was created, and I feel no need to pursue an explanation either.

[dzee]

i don't think of it all the time, per se :D

it's just that i sometimes find myself wondering. we don't have to understand, but when people try to understand that, i guess that's where some of them will end up.

i don't care about whether there really is a God or not, cos i don't think he'll approve of me either way :p

Is there not a social stigma (at least to the masses) in being an aethist? Therefore to avoid problems, people stick with the religion they grew up with. Also, at some catholic schools you get a lower tuition if you are catholic
not true in singapore. for a country that has at least 4 religions to offer, there are a number of people who are atheist/free-thinkers, and there's no social stigma attached to that. i should know, because i'm one of them.

[nice gaijin]

I think the focus so far for most of the animosity I mentioned (at least in this thread) has been directed towards organized religions, particularly Christianity. I think this is a dangerous assumption to make when someone mentions "religion," especially if you are trying to have a serious discussion about its merits and disadvantadges. Are these opinions consistant towards Buddhism? Hinduism? Islam? Jainism? Judaism? Sikhism? Native tribal beliefs? how about the Chinese religious complex (based on Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhist traditions)? are they all ultimately a negative force in the world? Were they founded with the intention of doing more harm than good? Whose fault is it that things have (in your opinion) turned out that way? If you just want to bash christian ideals and impacts, you should probably limit your vocabularly to those groups.

Religion is based on narcissism.
Wow I'm glad I didn't wait up for this mind-blowing response. Re-stating yourself in a shorter sentence is the opposite of elaboration. If that's all you have to offer then kindly step aside for people actually willing to discuss the issue.

[Aeneas]

I modify my first statement with "At least in most places in the USA"

I honestly thought that most of the world, particulary Europe, would be similar. Ah well.

[h2orowe]

I'm not really religious.. I'm sort of.. Agnostic? I don't have a religion, but I believe in God...
I was born in a Christian family, well values wise, we never went to church... some of the stuff just seems sort of... I don't know.. messed up. I mean, I don't really wanna believe in a God, who'd send some really awesome people to hell, just for not believing in him.
Religion is both a good and bad thing... I mean it's a good thing, because it sets standards of which we should live, most of them being good, but the bad ones... we can do without...
I know a few atheists, and all of them.... are dickwads. My mom's boyfriend is an atheist, and if religion comes up, he thinks of it as a chance for him to sound smart...
"OH RELIGION WAS MADE SO PEOPLE COULD EXPLAIN THEMSELVES! MORE DRUNKEN RAMBLE!"
He was like yelling at my Grandpa, and Mom, pretty much for believing in God/Jesus, and I just had it, and pretty much told him to shut the fuck up.

There's a difference between being religious, non-religious, and a fanatic.
Atheism is ok, as long as you don't press it on anybody that doesn't want it to be pressed upon them. Same goes for religion. Some people, ignore that, and just act like douches.
See Trading Spouses "God Warrior" episode.

[Praetorian]

I modify my first statement with "At least in most places in the USA"

I honestly thought that most of the world, particulary Europe, would be similar. Ah well.

Oh, I wasn't bashing your theory. But why "particulary" in Europe? Even though our countries, compared to the USA, are tiny, they're still a lot different from the next. In Belgium for example a large part of the people are Catholic. In the Netherlands, 80% of the people are atheists.

[KujiInRetsu]

"Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true, rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible, has always astounded me. We long for a caring universe which will save us from our childish mistakes, and, in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary, we will pin all our hopes on the slimmest of doubts. 'God has not been proven not to exist, therefore, He must exist.'"
-Academician Prokhor Zakharov; "For I Have Tasted the Fruit"

Greatest Alpha Centauri quote ever.

[h2orowe]

"God has not been proven not to exist, therefore, He must exist."
That same comment could be said for
"God has not been proven to exist, therefore, he must not exist."

There's no winning in this argument, it is fun to debate, though. I hate it when people think there is a yes or no answer to the whole God question.... -.-

[Ceirnian]

Read the quote again H20, I think you missed the main point.

As for myself, I believe in all the Gods/Goddesses in a way. I don't worry about whether they actually exist or not since we can't prove it either way. The reason I'm at this point is because having faith is comfortable in many situations. If something bad happens I can calm myself down abit by saying saying "It's the will of the gods" or "It seems I have angered Lady Luck". It's not really shifting the blame when I do it, It just makes whatever happened seem abit more amusing. That applies for when something good happens as well, the feeling that some divine force is affecting my life just makes things more interesting.

Hard topic for me to talk about since I haven't really solidified my viewpoints on exactly what and why I believe, but that's at least something.

[Idlethought]

heres what i wonder. how come you gotta rain on everyone else's religious parade? how come you cant just let them be them? they dont bitch at you for not believing. they dont actively make threads like "all athiest should be dragged out into the street, beatin with a sack of doorknobs, and shot in the head 3 times". like honestly just chill the fuck out and let them be them.

bastid.

[h2orowe]

Some do actually, Idle, haha, not on the forums though, but "God Warriors". -.-

[Praetorian]

"People break down into two groups when the experience something lucky. Group number one sees it as more than luck, more than coincidence. They see it as a sign, evidence, that there is someone up there, watching out for them. Group number two sees it as just pure luck. Just a happy turn of chance. I'm sure the people in Group number two are looking at those fourteen lights in very suspicious way. For them, the situation isn't fifty-fifty. Could be bad, could be good. But deep down, they feel that whatever happens, they're on their own. And that fills them with fear."

[Idlethought]

Some do actually, Idle, haha, not on the forums though, but "God Warriors". -.-

yea well i mean on the forums, theres no thread like "if you dont believe in god then your throat must be filled with cock."

[dzee]

*mental image suddenly overwhelms mind*

[Aeneas]

Oh, I wasn't bashing your theory. But why "particulary" in Europe? Even though our countries, compared to the USA, are tiny, they're still a lot different from the next. In Belgium for example a large part of the people are Catholic. In the Netherlands, 80% of the people are atheists.

Just thoguht that since most people in the USA came from Europe that the USA would mirror Europe to an extent. And also I'm not too sure of my knowledge of eastern religions and customs.

[stillbornsinger]

not true in singapore. for a country that has at least 4 religions to offer, there are a number of people who are atheist/free-thinkers, and there's no social stigma attached to that. i should know, because i'm one of them.

That's another awesome thing about Singapore... Its the only place I've ever been where you can stand in one place and be able to see a Mosque, a buddhist temple, and Catholic church all on the same street. People seem so considerate and willing to accept each others differences. Its said that the US is a melting pot, but I think that description better describes Singapore.

heres what i wonder. how come you gotta rain on everyone else's religious parade? how come you cant just let them be them? they dont bitch at you for not believing. they dont actively make threads like "all athiest should be dragged out into the street, beatin with a sack of doorknobs, and shot in the head 3 times". like honestly just chill the fuck out and let them be them.

Well, interesting you brought that up Idlethought because it wasn't to long ago that it was the case. Hey come to mention it, there are still several places in the world where I could be beaten, imprisoned, or even killed based on the fact that I'm an athiest

h2orowe- I believe diest is the term you are looking for.

nice gaijin- You bring up a good point and I agree my post at least was a bit directed towards the western religions. In my experience eastern religions have been far more accepting and compassionate. There are exceptions of course.

[dzee]

People seem so considerate and willing to accept each others differences.
it's just part of not taking each other too seriously :D and being positively curious about the other person's religion. anyone here would proudly explain to you what a certain aspect signifies/etc., if you asked.

[h2orowe]

Singapore is starting to sound nicer and nicer every post....

[dzee]

Come!!

I Shall Play Host! :p

[h2orowe]

Aww, I wish.
I need to get out of this place!

[dzee]

we're flooding this place with irrelevant posts :D aren't you on irc?

[setrict]

Security of being or purpose.
People like to feel secure, and religion often provides that security in a number of ways. No one likes to feel a meaningless existence. Trying to find an explanation is human curiousity at it's worst. We are looking for a reason why - and are more than happy to follow illogical paths in the attempt to find it.

The religious crowd generally goes down the purpose is beyond our understanding, but it's good so everything is A-OK path. Everyone likes to be right, but when your premise cannot be proven right the next best thing is to define it as right. The more people that support your definition, the more legitimate it appears. That kiddies is how rabidly-fanatical-fundamentalists are born.

The anti-religious crowd will never be satisified with what they see as an arbitrary or misguided definition of purpose, but they still have the same hole to fill. Many seem to feel an overwhelming need to create their own sense of being. That's an awfully big hole to fill alone, so they gather with others who feel as they do. Unfortunately It's a part of human nature that we find it easier to declare an enemy, than to agree on a purpose. Combine what with the truth that everyone wants to be right... and what better way to prove your ideology is correct than to disprove/discredit your ideological opposites? Many foaming-at-the-mouth-athiests are so busy trying to prove that they are right, they get side-tracked and forget that even if they are right it gets them no closer to filling that hole.

Security in friendship.
People need to be affirmed, and they generally do that by associating with those who fulfill that role by agreeing with them. A common purpose or goal is a great mechanism for creating an environment where friendships can flourish. The legitimacy of the purpose or goal is relatively unimportant.

Sense of belonging (Spiritual side)
A huge portion of any religion is the club atmosphere that provides a sense of belonging. It doesn't matter if the club is a Political party Christian Church, a Budhist Temple, or organizations like Atheists.org. People like to feel accepted, that's the sense of belonging. People don't like to be excluded, that's peer presure. Two different motivations, but often the same result - it's good to be in a group.

Social network (Practical side)
A great many 'practicing' relgious people find the group part of religion far more important that any greater meaning. They are there for the ride, and the destination is really of secondary concern. Fear and insecurity are only a portion of what makes up human nature, you can't forget about good old greed. Never underestimate the impact of a good social network, whether it is based on religion, politics, wealth, or a combination of elements. Religious social networks are incredibly powerful, and have been one of the primary shapers of civilization.

Athiests call these pseudo-religious people hypocrits, and they're right. However I can't help feel that the main reason they complain is simple power envy. Many Athiests would argue that leaving such power in the hands of organized religion is a travesty, but I'm not sure what all the fuss is about really. Religion over time will be/has been forced to change to comply with proven fact. All religious groups walk the fine line of plausability in order to appeal broadly to the masses. If there truly is no god, no purpose, and no spiritualty than those aspects of humanity will fade in power naturally. Trying to force the issue seems from my perspective to be little more than a grasp at power long envied.

Guilt (The need to absolve responsibility).
This is really just the 'I need to be right issue' in disguise as it 'feels bad to be wrong'. A Catholic wants to be able to say a hundred hail marys and be able to rid themselves of being wrong. Athiests are even more deluded, they like to be able to say that they couldn't be wrong, because there is no 'right way' in the first place. Pathetic bunch we humans are, eh?

Well, that's my nearly incoherent brain dump on the subject. As for my own beliefs, I want to believe in something, for all those reasons I listed above. I'm also cynical when it comes to human nature, and reality vs perceived reality which rules out religion. I guess that puts me square in the I don't know category. In fact the only thing I know with absolute certainty is I despise being told what to believe (or not believe). I think the term Contentious agnostic fits nicely.

[h2orowe]

Nah, I just got on IRC though.

[rush]

On the whole, religious people don't bother me, as long as they're not in my face constantly. The fanatics, the zealots, the more-bible-quotes-than-sense, people are the ones that piss me off.

[Jon885]

"What I am curious about is that so many people heartily accept religion with no question of it's validity, fight because of it, and devote their lives to it. Is this to appease their parents who believe it? Do people enjoy being told how to think? Or is it a way of comforting a person to believing in life after death? Or many untold other answers or combinations of the ones mentioned? " -co_delphi

Believing in an afterlife is still hard to disprove or prove in my opinion. I'm still trying to figure it out myself. So not all people that believe there's an afterlife just believe it without question.

[stillbornsinger]

Believing in an afterlife is still hard to disprove or prove in my opinion. I'm still trying to figure it out myself. So not all people that believe there's an afterlife just believe it without question.

Its also hard to disprove the existence of unicorns, the tooth fairy, and santa clause...

[stillbornsinger]

Singapore is starting to sound nicer and nicer every post....

Check out Discovery Channel on Dec. 4th, they are having a special on the history of Singapore. Its looks really interesting.

Dzee, so can you host me too! :D

[Roxie]

"People break down into two groups when the experience something lucky. Group number one sees it as more than luck, more than coincidence. They see it as a sign, evidence, that there is someone up there, watching out for them. Group number two sees it as just pure luck. Just a happy turn of chance. I'm sure the people in Group number two are looking at those fourteen lights in very suspicious way. For them, the situation isn't fifty-fifty. Could be bad, could be good. But deep down, they feel that whatever happens, they're on their own. And that fills them with fear."
Yes, I saw signs too.

THIS THREAD IS DARK-SIDED!!! IT IS NOT CCCCHHHHHRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSTTT TIIIIAAAAAAAAANN!!

However, I am. In fact, it's my middle name. No, seriously, legally it is.

Did anyone see that Futurama episode where Bender met God? I felt it explained alot. "If you do things just right, people won't know if you've done anything at all."

Really, when you come down to it, most religions agree on the Golden Rule of old.

However, alot of people use religion as an excuse for things, instead of thinking them through themselves and while I don't pretend to know the mind of God, I'm pretty sure God wouldn't want us to be mindless followers, but heartfelt ones.





Singapore is starting to sound nicer and nicer every post....
Have you forgotten the caining?

[h2orowe]

I remember the SNL skit for it... :P I'm only 15... I don't remember anything before yesterday.

[Praetorian]

Yes, I saw signs too.




Heh, who hasn't? I just felt it was appropriate in this thread. The film was really illogical, but that quote has a base of truth in it.

[Star Market]

I'm actually not sure how I feel about religion.

My parents became evangelical Christians when I was five, and they brought the heat on early in their walk with God. I won't go into nitty-gritty-details, but let's just say my parents were very devout, I wasn't a normal kid when they were through with me, and I know more about the Bible than your average bear.

Since leaving home to go on to bigger and better things (like finishing my degree and getting a job), I haven't been to church. I can't even remember the last time I touched a Bible. Thirteen years of having all of that crammed down your throat against your will I suppose will do that to you. I missed out on a lot of things growing up because most of time was spent either in church or some form of Bible study with parents who wanted to shield me from EVERYTHING.

And yet, as I get older and live my life, I find myself drawn back to those teachings. Too much of what goes on in the world does not make any sense. In this chaos and confusion, I find myself oddly at peace when I center myself in the thirteen years of what I thought was cruel and unusual torture. Unlike my parents, I have sense enough to respect what other people believe and try to explore their beliefs further to understand why and what their attraction to that belief is. But even after said exploration, I find myself most comfortable in the adroit, evangelical Christianity that was the basis of my childhood.

But I still have a bone to pick with organized religion. I hate seeing religious people who think they're better than everyone else because of a presumed moral authority. I hate seeing intolerance and disrespect for others' beliefs, a rampant epidemic among religious people. I hate seeing religious people who think that success in spreading their religion is getting the other guy to conform to your culture - i.e., I hate missionaries who think evangelize = westernize...or muslims who think we should turn the clock back 700 years. People have done and will continue to do incredibly stupid things in the name of organized religion.

So that is where I am; drawn to a comfortable...stupidity. Or perhaps I am drawn more to spirituality and a desire to commune with something greater than myself, and I just can't stand seeing all the baggage that comes with it.

[Jai]

Its also hard to disprove the existence of unicorns, the tooth fairy, and santa clause...

Quoted for truth

[Roxie]

I remember the SNL skit for it... :P I'm only 15... I don't remember anything before yesterday.
Oh, well, maybe before your time or when you were quite young.

A boy not much older, went there, spray painted some cars and got lashed with a cain for it.

[Encryp]

I've got nothing against religions, as long as they leave me alone. What i do disagree with is stupidity that is justified by religions. For example the pope refusing to endorse condoms, while aids runs rampant in Africa (which conincidentley has a high proportion of christians). My last disagreement is killing in the name of a god. I dont really care if you want to die for your faith, but dont strap a fucking bomb to your body while you do it.

Heres a good quote for religions that certainly explains the ignorance of some "believers":
Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate.
~ F. M. Knowles

[dzee]

Dzee, so can you host me too!

sure :D if you can stand my mum. -cough (there's only one answer to this..)

[Praetorian]

There was only one thing I liked about Karl Marx. "Religion is the opium of the people."


Whilst I fully respect each and every (peaceful) religion, I don't think I'll ever believe.

[Idlethought]

*opiate of the masses

[Praetorian]

*opiate of the masses

I got the quote literally in German, and literally translated it. I don't care how someone of inferior intelligence translated it, I translated it this way and it is exactly the same thing.


Religion als Opium des Volkes.

[Idlethought]

wow someones a bit nippy today

[Praetorian]

Sorry, I just hate being corrected. It's part of my megalomania.

[Idlethought]

uh huh....ill just settle for youre in a bad mood

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

When I clicked on this topic I hoped that people wouldn't come up with the concept that "all religion should be abolished". Sure enough I found someone who said that.

Granted some people came to thise topic with questions and their own thoughts on religion, but some people still don't get it. Some people believe that religion is just a crutch to those who can't get along in the real world. Yes, some people use it as a crutch or as an excuse, but those people aren't really true to their faith. They can say "Well I'm a Christian" and never really been to a church service in their life.

Faith defines the meaning of who some of us are and what we can hold on to as morals makes us a better person and eventually we will get a reward for it. The love for God literally holds strong in people's hearts and yet some just still don't understand. Some people who don't believe have evedently figure it all out. Sure enough they figured that life is the way it is and that is it.

You don't understand how people believe? Well I don't understand how anyone could NOT believe.

To me, it is a scary thought that there is no higher power or no reward in the afterlife. Supposidly we were all just here and there was no creation. What is the point in living? I'm not saying this in a suicidal tone, but really what is the point of life? To make it better for those who are going to come in the next generation? Doesn't matter because you will be dead and that is it. You sure enough won't make a mark big enough in life for people to care and when you die, supposedly, that will be it. No reward or punishment. Just nothing. Your life is over and eventually you will fade away with the coming age.

You say it is easy for people to believe in religion and a God. Well it is also easy to not believe in God. So it works both way.

Yes, there are people who have gone through life and history fighting and dying for religion just so they can tell the next person that we are right and you are wrong. I'm sure it makes God angery that people fight each other just to prove that they are right. That's really what it boils down to with the suicide bombings and the old crusades. People were desperate to spread and prove they are right.

You have every right to be mad at those people who say "You shall be damned in hell" or "Come with me because I can help you save your soul" that really isn't helping.

Islam, Judism, Christianity and most other religions really revolve around two main purposes.

Love for your God and Love for your fellow man. That is the basis of what it is and what so many people lost when time has passed.

I just wish everyone could understand THAT is why we believe. Not fear of a hell, not fear of life, not as a crutch, but for a love for God and everyone else.

That's why.

[Snake eyeS]

what is the point of life? To make it better for those who are going to come in the next generation? Doesn't matter because you will be dead and that is it. You sure enough won't make a mark big enough in life for people to care and when you die, supposedly, that will be it. No reward or punishment. Just nothing. Your life is over and eventually you will fade away with the coming age.


While you run around and only take care of yourself and dont worry about what tomorrow will bring, ill do my best to give my childeren a world they can enjoy, a world that still is worth the effort. if we lived by your reasoning, this place would of been a hell hole. Nah, instead of bieng egotistical and only living for my own good , ill live my life for others. in the bigger picture i might have changed a bit, while you have only gotten yourself into heaven.

my views on beliefs vary from time to time, each time i meet someone who uses faith for everything, or is stuck in their beliefs.. i despice the religion he follows. but whenever i see someone taking comfort as to thinking his loved one will be taken care of in heaven i applaude religion.

as long as coperate beliefs like christians, jews and muslims are about (the more agrresive beliefs) im riding the with the athiest crew. doesnt say i dont believe in anything, i just have an entirely diffent view on belief and higher biengs then they do.

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

I never said look out for number 1 in fact I would think that is the most selfish thing a person can do. I was really just using that as an example and understanding instead of saying "Hey I'll do whatever I can to help myself."

Doing whatever you can to help yourself is not only selfish, but extreamly greedy.

I really don't like getting into these arguments and I am going to avoid them from now on. This line of thought and argument only brings out hate and I really just would like to avoid it.

[SoAP]

I think that some people are going to try to force their beliefs on others no matter what religion (if any) they belong to. I think it's just in some people's nature.

[Jon885]

Its also hard to disprove the existence of unicorns, the tooth fairy, and santa clause...


Well there's a difference. For example electronic voice phenomenon should be something looked into. You're no better than people who don't question a religion if you don't consider the possibility of an afterlife. There's no scientific evidence for fairy tales and everybody knows it. There could be evidence for an afterlife though.

I'm not saying there is one but I think it's worth looking into at least.

[Justin Ellis]

But Jon885, countless people have made attempts to find some sort of tangible evidence for a life after death, and thus far, nothing significant has come to pass.

As for why people chose (or often times don't "chose" so much as they are indoctrinated) to believe in a given religion or otherwise super natural being, Sigmund Freud had a very interesting take on that, if you're willing to look into it.

[Roxie]

Sigmund Freud had a very interesting take on that, if you're willing to look into it.
Honestly, I don't know how anyone takes Freud seriously in any capacity anymore, not in 2005.

Penis envy? Are you kidding me? What about breast envy or something?

[Praetorian]

Penis envy? Are you kidding me? What about breast envy or something?


Oh, don't act like it isn't true. ;)


Anyway, if you think women got the short end of the Freudian stick - think again.

*cough* Oedipal syndrome *cough*

[Jon885]

Justin some people believe they did find evidence in life after death. Others have not. You're not even taking into consideration those who have.

[Roxie]

Anyway, if you think women got the short end of the Freudian stick - think again.

Well, it's not that. I just think it's plum crazy to assume one and completely ignore the other.

[Overkongen]

I've been discussing religion for years now. I have slowly moved from the "Let's disprove god" - over the "Lookie here, let's prove that god is evil" to the "Let's look at how religious people act".

First one. Take the Bible. Find some things that contradict each other, or a few points that have been disproven by science. People will then tell you that the holy scriptures are supposed to be interpreted in a special way. By the way, I believe in the easter bunny. Not as a huge bunny that gives us all easter eggs, but as a metaphore for the fact that bunnies taste good. Thus, the easter bunny exists. Or some such... Sorry, people, I still don't get it. I consider your typical fundamentalist a good worshiper.

I already talked about god not acting up when children are molested, and how he, according to the bible, has sent throngs of what I (and most other people, I believe) consider innocents, to hell. 'Nuff said.

As I just mentioned above, I consider your typical fundamentalist a good believer. Not a good person, though. Religious people are working hard to increase the amount of STDs among young people (Sex ed, hell no, let them fool around, and bear the consequences!), bombing abortion clinics, bomb world trade centers, kill innocents, provoke worldwide hatred.

These things mainly apply to the three evil monotheistic religions. I don't know that much about eastern religions. I think there's something about Buddism, where you don't have to worship the one right god, and how they actually tolerate people who think and live differently that how they choose to. Almost sounds too good to be true, though.

[Roxie]

the title of this thread eats me up a bit.

"no religious theology" as if there's another kind of theology? :confused:

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

As I just mentioned above, I consider your typical fundamentalist a good believer. Not a good person, though. Religious people are working hard to increase the amount of STDs among young people (Sex ed, hell no, let them fool around, and bear the consequences!), bombing abortion clinics, bomb world trade centers, kill innocents, provoke worldwide hatred.
Uh, please don't tell me that you're trying to put all people who are religious into the same boat as fundamentalists and the minority of extremists. That is a rather bad generalization.

[Kanzetsu]

Extremists who make themselves known that is...

[Overkongen]

That isn't exactly what I meant. However, I do consider a fundamentalist a truer believer then, well, the rest. I sometimes debate with this guy from the Krishna movement, and he still insists that the sun is closer than the moon, the sun is populated by something I translate as demons, thinks that widows should be burned, and insists that girls be married off when they get their first period, preferably before that. He's nuttier then a pecan log, of course, but I gotta give him a bit of respect, for being a true believer, and not throwing the whole "It's a metaphor, when my god tells me to kill the atheists, it really means that I am supposed to be their friends"-shit at me.

[more cheerios]

Religion is here because the question 'why' can never be answered. The only thing that can be answered is 'how'. Science can answer 'how', but science cannot answer 'why'.

[Kass]

Fundamentalist Christians make up less than 2 percent of Christians worldwide. I actually posted statistics and numbers in this forum before. It is completely inaccurate to characterize all religious people by an extreme minority in religions.

As for the whole guilt thing someone mentioned, absolution isn't to wipe away the wrong or to get out of the consequences of the action. It is for forgiveness--knowing that while you made a mistake, you are still loved. Absolution makes nothing go away. It simply absolves you of guilt, not responsibility. Those are not synonymous.

[jingi893]

Religion is here because the question 'why' can never be answered. The only thing that can be answered is 'how'. Science can answer 'how', but science cannot answer 'why'.

random chance...it is just a human trait to try to make order out of things/seek connections...but in the end the why is pure random chance...like coincidences...there are none...only connections that we place on two or more non-related events...

religion...in it's western connotation and especially among the fundamentalists...is simply an abdictation of responsibility to some non-existent spirit/spirts in the sky...and no...i'm not going to go there when i die...i mean...what the fuck kind of religion is it that a man like hitler...if on his death bed took jesus christ as his saviour...could get into heaven?...it basically states that you can be the biggest prick in the world and still get to heaven...instead of being responsible for your own actions...someone up there is responsible...puhlease...religion WAS important...a long long time ago...when nomadic tribes needed a glue to keep society together...but along came a bearded gentleman named darwin who put the nails into the coffin of religion...

the western religions tend to be either/or type propositions...they...especially christianity/islam...also teach their believers that it is the solemn duty of the believers to go out and "convert"...and this is even more zealously believed and practiced among the fundamentalists that i grew up with...my aunt and uncle would always talk to me about my relationship with god...well a relationship is a two way street...i tried talking to god...he just never spoke back..

however...as an atheist and a progressive i would never stop someone from believing in whatever they wanted to...i just don't want it forced on me and it shouldn't be in government...and it should definitely not be in science class...sorry if my diatribe was off thread...

[setrict]

Religion is here because the question 'why' can never be answered. The only thing that can be answered is 'how'. Science can answer 'how', but science cannot answer 'why'.

I don't think I've ever seen it put so concisely, and I agree completely. Thiests want to know why, Athiests insist there is no why, only how.. and Agnostics get a headache and don't want to think about it anymore.

[ruaidhri]

As I've written in previous threads about religion, I’ve spent most of my life as an Agnostic, not knowing or caring if there were a God. I am more interested in “how” we’re here and care little about “why” we’re here.

But, now that I’m 64, I want there to be a God. I want there to be am afterlife, a heaven or even reincarnation. I want there to be something other than just the end.

Do I support any religion? No! I still don’t like religions. I understand them and I do appreciate their value but I am also aware of how men have used religions to gain wealth and power at the expense of the masses. Needless to say, I am not a Christian, Muslim or any of the many other religions found on Earth. I do not support any of the religious dogma associated with established religions. Regardless, I want there to be a God. I don’t have faith, only desire. I guess I could be called an aging and hopeful theist.

Oh, and by the way, while I do fear zealots of any flavor, religious or otherwise, I respect people that truly believe in God and honestly practice their religion. I equally respect people that question religions and choose not to believe in God while following the golden rule of treating others as they themselves wish to be treated.

A problem I have is with the many people claiming to be Atheists criticizing and even ridiculing the religious. In my view that serves no purpose other than to say “look at how smart I am and how dumb they are.” I don’t believe the religious are “wrong” simply because no one can prove the existence of God beyond a reasonable doubt. I say, let people have their religions and Gods if it makes their passage through life easier. What benefit is there in putting them down?

[TygressVirgo]

Ruaidhri, nice to see you again :D

O goodness, I think, for me number17(?) summed it up the best. To love God(Goodness), and to love thy neighbor.

For me, the bible is not the absolute truth in the sense that people believe it to be. It is something that can only viewed as the absolute truth when a person meets God. The whole "God told me to kill non-believers" is stupid and manmade. God could not be God if He has done something of the sort. Humans, IMHO, are incapable of completely understanding the word of God. We are imperfect, and the word of God is perfect. I am Catholic, but I do not necessarily agree with everything my religion preaches, and I pray for the forgiveness of the countless sins that it has and will more than likely continue to commit.

I have faith in God because I have felt him in my life. I walk out of mass with a feeling of complete and total euphoria. It comes from within, no one tells me to feel it, and no one has ever made me feel it. In addition, it is different from a "Euphoria" a drug user feels. A drug user gets his from a mind-altering substance and experiences quite a bit of a down trip. This feeling does not alter my mind, nor does it come with a down trip. I know that this probably makes no sense, but it is what I feel and I hope you can at least respect that. If you do not, blessings of understanding to you.

On the subject of eternal punishment, I honestly do not believe in Hell, but I do in Purgatory. A favorite phrase of mine is Ti Mi Migu Yu'us, God does not sleep. God sees all. He sent his son to save the ENTIRE world. Everyone who sins, will suffer, but God promises that the salvation will come and everyone is already saved. For me, the only thing that can earn you no salvation is to turn your back completely on God. But I am not God, so therefore I can judge nor condemn anyone. Frankly, I am glad that no human is God, which is just a scary thought in itself. My God is a Merciful, Forgiving, and Loving God. I pray for mercy, forgiveness, and love for all. God Hears my prayers, and He will answer them.

What I have written are my own thoughts and feelings on the subject. Take from it what you will. Try and attack if you want, but you will find no satisfaction from it. All I want to do in this life is to love my God, and to love all to the best of my ability. If I can do my best at that, then I will die happy and ready to meet whatever afterlife there may be.

[Mr.Babalo]

Why is everyone complaining about one premise being accepted in religion? The hypocrisy blows my mind: it’s not nearly as ridiculous as some of the stuff evolution will want you to accept. Here’s Darwin’s modern premise that must be accepted in regards to the origin of life: we all came from the basic building block of life: RNA (or arguably DNA). The theory goes that when earth was mostly a pool of life breeding ingredients (nucleotides, sugars, phosphates, etc) , a magical lightning bolt strikes the pool and somehow manages to combine these basic ingredients to form RNA. Now today, modern science has shown that by natural occurrence that nucleotides, sugars, etc can be formed naturally, but the CANT EXPLAIN the lightning bolt! They have tried all different measures of electricity, heat energy, different atmospheric pressures, different ratios of ingredients, electromagnetic waves, any possible thing you can pull out of your ass. THEY ALL FAIL TO CREATE LIFE.

I’m not arguing the validity of Religion; I’m arguing the presence of a God, because he (I’m using ‘he’ for simplicity) explains himself through the GREAT UNSOLVABLE mysteries of science. What is gravity? It is an invisible force that allows any mass to attract any other mass from anywhere in the universe, we know what it does, we translated it into language we can understand: math, we use it for our advantage yet we DON’T KNOW WHAT IT IS! What is gravity made of? It is a phenomenon that we just accept as part of reality, but we don’t know what it is made up of! We can’t see it, it takes up no matter and we don’t know why it works the way it does. A paradox: it attracts every piece of matter together, yet the universe as a whole is dispersing from the center

First law of thermo dynamics: matter cannot be CREATED or DESTROYED. Yet everything in evolution has taught us that something always comes from something ( a chicken comes from an egg, a tree comes from a seed, we came from a long line of bipedal humanoids). Are we to accept the PREMISE that the big ball of matter in the beginning of the universe was just there?! For randomness? And it created all the beauties of mankind—HAVE ANY OF YOU CLIMBED A MOUNTAIN N JUST GET ENTHRALLED BY THE VIEW? IS THAT ALL AN ACCIDENT? WE APPREACIATE BEAUTY (ACCORDING TO DARWIN) BECAUSE IT INCREASES OUR CHANCE FOR SURVIVAL, SO WE CAN PASS DOWN OUR GENES TO NEXT GENERATION? Or is it proof that there is SOMETHING out there manifesting a perpetual genius to us? If the universe was approx 13-14 billion years ago (according to science) then that means at once point there was T=0; WHAT WAS BEFORE TIME=ZERO? What gave that massive ball of atoms the ENERGY to explode to create such the universe we see today? The energy cannot be created or DESTROYED, all that energy since the beginning is conserved and takes form in everything we see. And Darwin is telling us that it is all by random chance? That there was no creator? That this complexity of the universe is all an accident?

The greatest minds have believed in a superior being, Albert Einstein said, “the more I study the universe, the more I believe in a greater being.” Carl Jung developed the theory of the collective unconscious: something that all humans share with one another, and he proposed that if we all share these innate memories, than any other alien being out in the universe would hold the same. Sigmund Freud was a believer and his theory of the id and superego makes one reminiscent of the bible and it’s stories of Adam biting the apple from the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL.


Darwin was definitely onto something, but nowhere CLOSE to disproving God.

[stillbornsinger]

The first law of thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed...

Anyway... So if you are going to argue that the universe had to come from somewhere, it could not have always been here, then I would argue that the same rule would have to apply to any "god". So where did god come from then?

Albert Einstein was not religious by the way.

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."


TygressVirgo- Could you please clairfy your statement on your belief about the bible being imperfect, yet the word of God being perfect? You seem to counterdict yourself.

[Trajanus]

To address the original question I'd simply like to say that I think 'setrict' put it best, and that if you really don't want to read all that you can read the summed up version by 'more cheerios'. :)

But what I really wanted to address briefly was Mr.Babalo's post. You mention 'great unsolvable mysteries of science', but I'd like to point out that just because we don't understand something -now- means we will -never- understand it. I don't think it would have been possible to even explain the concept of space-flight to a Roman; and I'm sure they never imagined man would travel to the moon.

I'm not saying science has solved these problems, not by a longshot, but if given more time science may in fact solve some of these problems. After all, we've only really begun to tackle these questions in the last four to five hundred years.

[Buckwheat]

This site: http://www.skepticreport.com/creationism/thingscreationistshate.htm

Contains a long list of things creationists/ID folks hate. my favorite of the bunch is;

A Pile of Sand

So the universe comes from randomness, and order only comes as a result of a conscious intent? When sand trickles down into a pile, the pile is conical. Now a cone is an ordered shape. Does God, therefore, organize each collision of one grain against another so as to fulfill his purpose that the pile be conical? Is there some reason why He goes to all that trouble? It's a mystery, no doubt. Or maybe, just maybe, dissipative systems like this can exhibit spontaneous order-forming behavior. Other dissipative systems include crystal growth, snowflake formation and--horrors--organic life itself.
-Paul Murray

And Burt Ward adds one more in the same vein: Cans of mixed nuts and bags of potato chips. Those awful, incovenient examples of a steady application of energy promoting order instead of chaos. Big nuts and large chips go to the top, small nuts and crumbs go to the bottom. Don't those silly containers know that the odds of that happening BY CHANCE ALONE is trillions to one against? It's against the second law of thermodynamics !

[Ceirnian]

Please don't turn this into a religous debate. Asking to clarify peoples thoughts is fine, but trying to prove / disprove god exists in this thread is pointless.

[Kass]

TygressVirgo- Could you please clairfy your statement on your belief about the bible being imperfect, yet the word of God being perfect? You seem to counterdict yourself.

The Bible is the word of God as put to paper by man. Man is imperfect and can't be expected to perfectly convey God's word.

For example, the extreme fundamentalist right often argues as a basis for their anti-gay agendas that Jesus and God condemned homosexuality. Neither did. Paul did in one of his epistles. The epistles are Paul's letters and opinions on what he believed God and Jesus said/desired. While often his admonishments were to churches and groups in considerable turmoil or nearly out of control and in need of serious behavior adjustments, nowhere is it indicated that that opinion is anything other than Paul's.

[more cheerios]

The Bible is the word of God as put to paper by man. Man is imperfect and can't be expected to perfectly convey God's word.

For example, the extreme fundamentalist right often argues as a basis for their anti-gay agendas that Jesus and God condemned homosexuality. Neither did. Paul did in one of his epistles. The epistles are Paul's letters and opinions on what he believed God and Jesus said/desired. While often his admonishments were to churches and groups in considerable turmoil or nearly out of control and in need of serious behavior adjustments, nowhere is it indicated that that opinion is anything other than Paul's.
THANK YOU! @___@ <3
I've been trying to explain this to people for ages and nobody ever gets it. I just got blasted in church from the time I was ten. *_*


Anyways, I think that not believing that life holds mysteries (such as the mystery of creation, other such things) is ignorant. Science cannot explain everything and I doubt it ever will. Although, it is a good tool to help people understand. :)

[jezebelflux]

Why is everyone complaining about one premise being accepted in religion? The hypocrisy blows my mind: it’s not nearly as ridiculous as some of the stuff evolution will want you to accept. Here’s Darwin’s modern premise that must be accepted in regards to the origin of life: we all came from the basic building block of life: RNA (or arguably DNA). The theory goes that when earth was mostly a pool of life breeding ingredients (nucleotides, sugars, phosphates, etc) , a magical lightning bolt strikes the pool and somehow manages to combine these basic ingredients to form RNA. Now today, modern science has shown that by natural occurrence that nucleotides, sugars, etc can be formed naturally, but the CANT EXPLAIN the lightning bolt! They have tried all different measures of electricity, heat energy, different atmospheric pressures, different ratios of ingredients, electromagnetic waves, any possible thing you can pull out of your ass. THEY ALL FAIL TO CREATE LIFE.

I’m not arguing the validity of Religion; I’m arguing the presence of a God, because he (I’m using ‘he’ for simplicity) explains himself through the GREAT UNSOLVABLE mysteries of science. What is gravity? It is an invisible force that allows any mass to attract any other mass from anywhere in the universe, we know what it does, we translated it into language we can understand: math, we use it for our advantage yet we DON’T KNOW WHAT IT IS! What is gravity made of? It is a phenomenon that we just accept as part of reality, but we don’t know what it is made up of! We can’t see it, it takes up no matter and we don’t know why it works the way it does. A paradox: it attracts every piece of matter together, yet the universe as a whole is dispersing from the center.

The thing that blows my mind about most humans is that they are so My Country/Continent/Solar System/Universe centric. There is a bacterium in the tundra that "eats" rock (which is something scientists never expected to find, especially at that temperature), so why does "life" have to have evolved ONLY here on Earth. We know we are not the ONLY solar system in the Known Universe, who is to say there are not other populated planets let alone OTHER populated UNIVERSES? Why do you need a "magical lightning bolt" or some guy floating in the clouds with a pointed index finger to "create life"?

Why is it so important to explain everything NOW? Think about the last 5,000 years and the technical advances humans have made in that time. Think about the timeline of the earth. That amount of time isn’t even registerable.

Think about the technical advances of the last 300 years; now think about 300 years compared to the timeline of the earth. Just because "scientists" mixed batches of different "creation ingredients" and "zapped them"...how are they supposed to get the "recipe" right when it most likely took BILLIONS or more years for it to happen? That’s a WHOLE LOT of disgusting human Egotism there. Sure, guessing has created advancements in civilization and society but why would anyone think they could just up and SOLVE it in a few tries, let alone millions of tries?

Just think about how modern civilized man in the 1900's were still emptying chamber pots onto the undrained streets for everyone to walk through...hmmmm, I guess they forgot about the fantastic technology of Ancient Roman aqueducts and sewer systems.

As long as the human race doesn’t wipe itself out through overpopulation, or stupid race, religion or energy wars we will find out exactly why gravity occurs. I understand the comfort factor of religion but I dont understand why people would want to explain away what they dont know in the face of up-and-coming scientific developments.

[TygressVirgo]

stillbornsinger - See Kass's Response.

Awesome Kass, thanks for putting it so perfectly. That was a wonderful example. :D

[Kass]

It is actually quite interesting to look at the history behind the various epistles in the New Testament. Some were directed at churches (not the formal entities we have now, but people gathering together to worship) who had gotten so out of control or were being so petty and spiteful it makes American politics look like a school yard spat.

Some were words of encouragement to others from the authors. It surprised me that someone could have so much hope and joy while imprisoned.

There are some good exhortations in the epistles on how to treat others that will survive the ages. It's hard to argue the golden rule. There are also some rather pointed and harsh criticisms and some very personal biases in them, but if you look at them in the historical context in which they are set, they make much more sense.

[stillbornsinger]

The Bible is the word of God as put to paper by man. Man is imperfect and can't be expected to perfectly convey God's word.


Right... I understand this, but the point I'm trying to lead up to is - How does anyone know what the word of God is then?

If the entire religion and faith is based on an admitantly flawed book that was written by men... All of your faith and beliefs are engrained in you by your parents and the community which you grew up in. To someone who grew up in a country where hindu is the major religion, well thats what they are going to believe. How can you be sure that what you believe in is anything more than just what you've been told from birth?

Are there any islands of people that have been discovered where the practiced religion was Christianity without ever having the teaching brought to them by an external group?

Agreed though, the history of the world's religions is quite interesting. Also, I've got no arguement with the golden rule but I'd like to point out that Christians were in no way the first to preach that.

[Kass]

A flaw in one person's interpretation does not make the entire work unworthy and for the most part, the overriding principles espoused in the book are good. These books are the best texts we have. Entire colleges were formed during those times and evaluated works against known records and documents for accuracy and content. There are tons of writings on Judaism and Christ that were not included. Several that were considered but rejected are part of the Apocrypha in the catholic Bibles. These books were in considerable dispute and that is why they are held separate.

No religious text can ever claim to be the definitive, perfect word of its god(s). Every single religion has to have human being put pen to paper. That does not mean that the apostles screwed up every recorded word in the Gospels. For being written by four different men of completely different backgrounds, language and cultures, the tales have an astonishing number of similarities--enough that you can glean a pretty accurate picture of what happened or what was said. The devil might be in the details, but God is in the overriding principles.

The epistles are not intended to be the word of God. They are the apostle's interpretation of the word of God AND teachings of Christ. The reason the "and" is so important is because it is extremely important to note that by God, they always meant the Jewish God and the Torah. None of these men considered themselves "Christians." Saul did not convert to Christianity and become Paul. He became a Jew. The term Christian came later. They considered themselves Jews. Jesus was a Jew. His issue was not with Judaism, but the tyrannical and corrupt methods of the Pharisees (a lot like modern day fundamentalists actually). They were exhortations on how to be good Jews.

Christianity was never intended to be a religion of its own. Jesus never intended to split the Jewish church, but rather rebuild it after eliminating corruption. It was meant to be a return to the true word of God and his commandments. It cannot have spontaneously been anywhere. It was a "correction," not an invention. (Correction isn't the best word there, but I can't think of a better one at the moment.)

This brings me to your next point. Of course Christianity wasn't the first to teach values such as the golden rule (there are many more, but that was the first I thought of). It wasn't the first religion. It was/is the branch of an existing one. Judaism and Islam formed at the same time and then split. Later Christianity split from Judaism. Then the eastern and western Christian churches split. Then Lutherans split from Catholicism (the western Christian church). Then so on and so forth...

If you want to argue along those lines, the better question is "Are there any islands of people that have been discovered where the practiced religion was Judaism/Islam?" I don't know, but I'd argue not since the pratices of any beliefe system have to evolve and spread through word of mouth or written word.

One single person's belief can be spontaneous and isolated. The beliefs and ideas of a people always come into being by way of sharing. There's no way to spread a common value system without sharing.

Since across all major religions, you find some sort of creation epic and some other similar stories, it might even be that they are all related, though the worship of God evolved differently in different parts of the world.

How can I be sure I don't believe this because I was raised to do so? Easy. I wasn't. I wasn't raised in a religious home. My parents never once took me to a church of any kind except for weddings. Judeo-Christian values were definitely the overriding system in place and they encouraged my brother and I to question and explore. This is something that after a lot of research, a lot of different services and a lot of soul searching, I came to on my own.

A former pastor of mine kind of summed up that final step thus:

"Faith isn't a blind leap. Faith is that last step into the unknown after all your studies and information has led you to where you are at. You've learned, you've read, you've evaluated. The evidence led you here and everything else is undiscovered. It is all that history and education that fortifies you and builds your faith for that step into the mysteries ahead."

[TygressVirgo]

Another quick thought, For me, while I may have been raised a catholic, there is no to very little of a way that this is what keeps me within in this particualr branch of faith. All I can truly say is that there is something about hearing a Mass, in English, Latin, or Chamorro that touches my heart as no other thing does. Although, I could honestly say that I could just as be a part of the various eastern Religions that preach unity and piest. One of my inspirational heros, is Ghandi. This little man held such faith in the world, he called himself a christian, a jew, a hindu, and a muslim, etc. I still have so much to learn about him, and many other universal thinkers.

One more thought, I have started to think that religion, in the sense that most people use divides rather than unites people. If you have ever read the Chronicals of Narnia, I love the way that Aslan says to the Calomaeron(sp?) who believed he served not Alsan, but tash.

"Child, all the service thou hast done to tash, I account as service done to me. [. . . .] He and I are not one, but because we are opposites -- I take to the services that one has done to him. For him and I are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done by me, and none which is not vile can be done to him."

Theres a bit more to it, but I will have to add to it as I am already late for my first class! >.<

Was going to add more, but that actually seems sufficent.

[Kuhool]

i see "religious people are weak minded" a lot, and just want to say my opinion on this.

a weak person can lift nothing, a strong person can lift something.

a lazy person will do nothing, a working person will do something.

it's always easier to do nothing than something, so i don't really think you should be called weak for accepting something over nothing. now this may not be the perfect example relating to the way the mind works, but it is a general example many could understand.

here's something interesting i found yesterday, one of Napoleon's observations:
"Man will believe anything, as long as it's not in the Bible."