Is Honesty the Best Policy?

[Pierrot le Fou]

In this thread (http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1672&page=2), more cheerios seemed to be suggesting that honesty is the best policy in a relationship in this post (http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=60207&postcount=2):

You need to tell your wife everything. You need to tell her how the girl asked you to dinner and you declined. Don't try to hide it from her that she was trying to hook up with you. Be perfectly honest. You're leaving something out and she can tell, whether it is minimal or not.

Personally I don't buy that load of bollox for a second (so much for an unbiased observer, eh?) but I was wondering what everyone else thought. Is honesty the best policy? All the time? Some of the time? Once in a blue moon? I will put a poll up to see what people think, if for no other reason that to be entirely disturbed by the amount of people who actually believe in that cliched line.

Personally I think there are plenty of times when being honest is just so bone-headed that it hurts. Despite the fact that more cheerios seems to believe that because I'm a man, I am absolutely clueless, I would argue that having gone through many failed relationships prior to my current successful (not completely honest) one, I know a hell of a lot better how to sink a relationship with a woman than more cheerios, a man-pursuing woman does.

For instance. Hypothetical girl A has been around the block six or twelve times. She has topped the quadruple digits for sexual conquests. She has been tested, and is clean, and has put that part of her life behind her. She meets swell badass B, who is a guy who cares about her for who she is, though he doesn't know about her sexual past, as he didn't think to ask having had little of it himself.

In the quest for total honesty, the girl would tell him, "Dear, I screwed 4000 sailors on shore leave -- but don't worry, I'm clean." Hypothetical Guy B would almost certainly dump her that instant, or soon after, because regardless of if she was done with that section of her life or not, he is not going to believe that she's perfectly honest about being done, or he's going to feel inadequate, etc. Honesty is NOT the best policy there, because that information will do NOTHING but hurt the guy she cares about.

Perhaps people like more cheerios feel morally bound, but that's a very self-serving act. How can you love someone if you're unwilling to take a hit for the team and let your 'conscience' suffer a bit for the other person? If you know you're going to hurt them, why tell?

Honesty ain't the best policy. Period.

[Shamu]

I think honesty, for the most part is a good thing, but there are sometimes when it can hurt someone more than it will do them good. It would be nice if we could live a world where everyone was honest and it didn't hurt anyone, but it's not. It's not even about telling people lies, sometimes a little ommision of the truth can be of more benifit to someone than the whole truth.
So yeah, honesty is not always the best policy, but it's nice if you can be as honest as possible (if that makes sense).

And PLF, will you stop bashing the little ones around here? They don't have the life experiences we "old" people have :p They'll all hopefully learn someday ;)

[Myrsilus]

I say about 60% of the time.. There was no 50%.

It's all very circumstancial and subjective. I know that honesty is definitely not always the best policy, as I lie whenever it is truly necessary, and that happens a lot in life.

Since you are referencing that other thread, I'll say here that unless someone is blatantly cheating on their spouse, they don't always have to divulge everything they do in their life. I personally would want to know if my woman cheated on me... I would tell her about my infidelity, as well. Avoiding problems like that is against my own outlook on life.

Ignorance is bliss, yes... But I was never really given that comfort most of my life, so it doesn't really matter to me. I'll take the truth, and I'll tell a lie when it will help me move up in life or make someone live with themselves easier.

Of course, this is all me. Not everyone will agree with what I have said. But this is the person life has shaped me into (I still have a lot of shaping to do, too). I wouldn't change it at all.

[Chinpokomon]

For instance. Hypothetical girl A has been around the block six or twelve times. She has topped the quadruple digits for sexual conquests. She has been tested, and is clean, and has put that part of her life behind her. She meets swell badass B, who is a guy who cares about her for who she is, though he doesn't know about her sexual past, as he didn't think to ask having had little of it himself.

In the quest for total honesty, the girl would tell him, "Dear, I screwed 4000 sailors on shore leave -- but don't worry, I'm clean." Hypothetical Guy B would almost certainly dump her that instant, or soon after, because regardless of if she was done with that section of her life or not, he is not going to believe that she's perfectly honest about being done, or he's going to feel inadequate, etc. Honesty is NOT the best policy there, because that information will do NOTHING but hurt the guy she cares about.


Bitter, are we? ;)

[Firefly]

I said 80 percent of the time. Everyone has secrets and not everyone needs or necessarily WANTS to know about certain things. (I'm not just talking about a sexual life, here)Also, sometimes honesty is not the best policy overall. I think being honest is good, but sometimes you have to lie, good or bad. That's just life.

BUT....I think it's important to be honest about a sexual past though, IMO, because trust me, it hurts more to find out later than it does to find out the truth the first time.
In my opinion, Girl A should've thought about her future before screwing all those guys. Clean or not, it was her choice and if Guy B has a probelm with it, then you know what? He can go find another girl and he's not worth Girl A's time.

[Myrsilus]

BUT....I think it's important to be honest about a sexual past though, IMO, because trust me, it hurts more to find out later than it does to find out the truth the first time.
In my opinion, Girl A should've thought about her future before screwing all those guys. Clean or not, it was her choice and if Guy B has a probelm with it, then you know what? He can go find another girl and he's not worth Girl A's time.
I should have mentioned something on this, too. I believe sexual history is not something to be ignored as well. Especially if they have been promiscuous. Once a cheater, always a cheater (Or at least that is usually the case to some extent).

[Citizen]

I like to be honest when I speak, even if it's brutal honesty. Yes, there are times when it's better to not be honest. In those situations, I just don't say anything.

[Kanzetsu]

You'll never get 100% truth out of a woman, if there is something she simply doesnt wanna tell you, even if you want her to and have assured her you wont get angry/upset/whatever.
so obviously you dont give the same back.
SOME things are better left unsaid, but of course, honesty is the best thing to work by if you think something will bite you in the ass later.
I mean in the other thread, that is very very very unlikely to bite you back in the ass.
If I was gonna say anything i'de of said "yeah, the idiot tried to hit on me"
but of course, i'de have a woman who bloody understood me enough to know I aint a sleep around, wishful thinking, but you can bet i'de be batting for a woman who did.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I have to disagree heavily on the cheating thing. If a couple is married 20 years, has two kids between them, and one or the other gets really drunk and ends up cheating on their spouse once, they shouldn't tell. First of all, it was alcohol-fueled, meaning that it is unlikely to happen sober (as it hadn't in 20 years), and secondly, telling will only cause suspicion of it happening again, no matter how slim the odds. That is harmful to the kids especially, as well as the spouse.

Things change a Hell of a lot when you move from high school/college romances that are unlikely to last, to when you're actually pursuing a partner. Honestly, you don't want to tell a person you're interested in that you've been with 50+ people in the 5-10 years of your sexual history. It just won't bode well for you or the relationship.

My sexual history is part of what turned me into who I am today. This is a case where the ends justify the means. Everyone wants a partner who's great in the sack, but very few want to know how they got that way. You think that my girlfriend really wants to hear which of my exes taught me how to do what I do? Telling things like that will not endear my girlfriend to me more, and will hurt both of us.

Women have a cut-off age for kids. No matter how great the medical science is today, once you start pushing 35 or so, the chance of birth defects and complications during pregnancy start to escalate exponentially. And it takes a while to conceive for most people. For me to tell my girlfriend of a year and a half, who's 28, something like that which has no relevance today (as in my sexual history), would only cause her to be put in a no-win situation where she has to try to find someone else to marry and have kids with in the near future, or to constantly have that thought in the back of her head.

And my girlfriend is the first to admit that there are things she would just rather not know.

It's great to say that your partner should like you for who you are, period, no exceptions or clauses. But good luck finding someone who accepts you for all your faults when you feel the need to disclose that stuff to her before you get serious. And good luck continually trying once you start to get older and want to start settling down. It's easy enough when you're in High School or College to ditch the person you're with and find another, because you're surrounded by people your age, with so many similarities. Once you get past college, suddenly you are surrounded by people of all age groups and backgrounds who are all quite different most likely, in age, financial status, etc.

Practicality is what makes a successful relationship or marriage. Idealism will not a happy marriage make, as love doesn't cure everything, it doesn't make everything possible, and it won't cure every ill in a relationship. Those who think it does tend to get rather shocked when everything falls apart down the line.

[alansmithee]

I said 80 percent of the time. Everyone has secrets and not everyone needs or necessarily WANTS to know about certain things. (I'm not just talking about a sexual life, here)Also, sometimes honesty is not the best policy overall. I think being honest is good, but sometimes you have to lie, good or bad. That's just life.

BUT....I think it's important to be honest about a sexual past though, IMO, because trust me, it hurts more to find out later than it does to find out the truth the first time.
In my opinion, Girl A should've thought about her future before screwing all those guys. Clean or not, it was her choice and if Guy B has a probelm with it, then you know what? He can go find another girl and he's not worth Girl A's time.

I had a longer reply, but my comp froze when I tried to post. But this was pretty much my sentiments. Also, it's selfish of someone to withhold something from their partner simply because they think it might cause themself trouble, especially if the information is something that they think would effect how the partner sees them.

[Suneru]

I read something that couples that have secrets are more successful. And that if they sometimes lie they fight less.
I think it's right. If you trust someone not to cheat on you, it's better for them to say "I went to the bar with my friends and then I went home" than "I went to bar with my friends. this guy bought me a few drinks and then invited me to have sex. I said no, and then I went home."
The second one just embeds worthless worry in your mind. Her telling everything doesn't make anything better, in fact it makes things worse. The truth of the situation is she did nothing wrong, but you will end up imagining her and the guy having sex.
As for sexual history. Chris Rock said it best "why you want to know, you ain't planting a flag anywhere." Normally it's one of those things you end up talking about. But if you think about it have you ever felt better knowing your partners history?

[Psychochink]

OK, this time I’ve learnt my lesson. Type post in Word first, then copy/paste into OP9

In a perfect world, where both men and women will react in a calm, logical and mature way to information presented to them, then yes – honesty is the best policy.

If you discover that world, tell me how to get there.

I’m a fairly strong practitioner and advocate of the whole ‘open and honest communication in a relationship’ thing, often to a fault and certainly to a higher extent than many guys I know. For example, I am reasonably likely to come out with a blunt, “You look awful, I hate that dress” to the oft-repeated “How do I look in this?” question that men fear so much. (Yes, I realise this says something about my intelligence, as well as my honesty) On the flip side, my fiancée knows that when I pay her a compliment, I mean it.

I believe that problems should almost always be brought out into the open and discussed, so that a couple can come to a mutual understanding about them. On the other hand, I also have a good understanding of human nature, which includes a realisation that sometimes it’s better not to talk about things, because people have prejudices, jealousies, preconceptions, peccadillos, quirks and just plain old craziness that gets in the way a lot of the time. Hell, sometimes a lot of these things can be the reason that we’re attracted to them.

If something is actually relevant to your relationship, then by all means talk about it. When it’s not, then why are you bringing it up? For example, say some woman makes a pass at me and I turn her down. This has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to my relationship with my fiancée. At best, it’s a mildly ego-boosting experience for me that is quickly forgotten.

If mentioning it to my fiancée would cause her any feelings of jealousy or upset, why bother? It had no impact on me, but by taking the time and effort to mention it to her, I immediately indicate that it did have some impact on me – otherwise why would I feel the need to bring it up in the first place? Likewise, a different man than I wouldn’t want to hear that people involved with her work keep making passes at her. It doesn’t bother me that much, but many guys would feel pretty uncomfortable with it.

Honesty in a relationship should depend on a whole slew of judgement calls, not a hard and fast (and simplistic) rule.

[alansmithee]

I have to disagree heavily on the cheating thing. If a couple is married 20 years, has two kids between them, and one or the other gets really drunk and ends up cheating on their spouse once, they shouldn't tell. First of all, it was alcohol-fueled, meaning that it is unlikely to happen sober (as it hadn't in 20 years), and secondly, telling will only cause suspicion of it happening again, no matter how slim the odds. That is harmful to the kids especially, as well as the spouse.

That is totally wrong, and is just rationalizing selfish behavior. If you are in a monogamous relationship and cheat (and "I was drunk" isn't an excuse), you made a mistake. You should have thought of the hurt you would cause when you cheated. And also, obviously you aren't the person your spouse thought you were, since they were under the assumption that you have self-control and understood what a monogamous relationship is.

Things change a Hell of a lot when you move from high school/college romances that are unlikely to last, to when you're actually pursuing a partner. Honestly, you don't want to tell a person you're interested in that you've been with 50+ people in the 5-10 years of your sexual history. It just won't bode well for you or the relationship.

My sexual history is part of what turned me into who I am today. This is a case where the ends justify the means. Everyone wants a partner who's great in the sack, but very few want to know how they got that way. You think that my girlfriend really wants to hear which of my exes taught me how to do what I do? Telling things like that will not endear my girlfriend to me more, and will hurt both of us.

Again, with this "it will hurt us both". No, you lied about who you were to get her, and established a relationship based upon a lie. This would have been avoided had you been open up front. Also, it's nothing more than wanting to not face the concequences of your actions.

Women have a cut-off age for kids. No matter how great the medical science is today, once you start pushing 35 or so, the chance of birth defects and complications during pregnancy start to escalate exponentially. And it takes a while to conceive for most people. For me to tell my girlfriend of a year and a half, who's 28, something like that which has no relevance today (as in my sexual history), would only cause her to be put in a no-win situation where she has to try to find someone else to marry and have kids with in the near future, or to constantly have that thought in the back of her head.

Again, it goes back to open honesty. It was your lies/deception that caused her to be in the no-win situation in the first place. Had you been open, that would've been a year and a half where she could've found someone who is the person you represented yourself as.

And my girlfriend is the first to admit that there are things she would just rather not know.

It's great to say that your partner should like you for who you are, period, no exceptions or clauses. But good luck finding someone who accepts you for all your faults when you feel the need to disclose that stuff to her before you get serious. And good luck continually trying once you start to get older and want to start settling down. It's easy enough when you're in High School or College to ditch the person you're with and find another, because you're surrounded by people your age, with so many similarities. Once you get past college, suddenly you are surrounded by people of all age groups and backgrounds who are all quite different most likely, in age, financial status, etc.

Again, if you have established a relationship, the past shouldn't be a problem. And if you purposely withhold information you think your partner would significantly dislike, you are just being selfish. Or, you are trying to be with the wrong person.

Practicality is what makes a successful relationship or marriage. Idealism will not a happy marriage make, as love doesn't cure everything, it doesn't make everything possible, and it won't cure every ill in a relationship. Those who think it does tend to get rather shocked when everything falls apart down the line.

Unless you are in an arranged or political marriage, chances are your marriage wasn't started off on a practical basis. Suddenly talking about practicality after entering an impractical situation is silly. The problem arrises is that peole are so desparate to have someone as they get older that they will rationalize any form of behavior to achieve what they want. If more people were comfortable with themselves, you wouldn't have so many marriages (and divorces). Earlier you talked about it being harder and harder to find people. But you totally ignored the option of not marrying, which in most cases is much more practical.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Other examples of lying (taken from my current relationship):

When at the bar gambling until 6:30am, only to get a call from the girlfriend asking where I am: "Sorry honey, I fell asleep on the train."

This is a good answer because she's told me I can do as I please in the sense of staying out and having my own life when I want to. However she wouldn't want me gambling. It just doesn't happen to be any of her business. Either way, I'm not home. Either way, it doesn't matter why I'm not home, so I may as well make her NOT mad at me so we can enjoy saturday afternoon after I've slept it off together.

When going to meet my female English teacher friend for a game of Trivial pursuit with other friends: "I'm going to Osaka to see some English teachers and play a board game. I'll be back on the last train."

This is a good answer because if I tell my girlfriend that I am going to meet women and will come home at last train to play a board game, the board game part starts to sound like a euphemism for sex. Now the woman's married, so it's not like anything would happen as her husband is there, but if I try to explain that it makes it sound like I'm laying ground for plausible deniability before I go and do something naughty. Just leaving out the gender keeps us both happy.

And my girlfriend probably realizes that some of these are lies. But she also trusts that I'm not out screwing her best friend either, so the lies, if there are any there, are minor, and she doesn't ask because she doesn't want to know. Not leading up to an obvious question she should make prevents her from having to ask, and we both end up more content for it.

I have stopped asking her about many details I would rather not know as well. I used to ask her who she was e-mailing on her phone when we were out together, but after she matter-of-factly stated once that it was her ex-boyfriend (who she is still friends with and I have met), I decided I just don't want to know. I have no doubts that she's faithful, so asking questions that make me doubt that is just foolish on my part, so I've stopped. Same thing with asking her who she's going out with.

And this just works better. So much better for me. Dear God it's so much less stressful, and we both have far more fun when we don't sweat the details and try to presumptively micromanage the other person's social life.

[alansmithee]

Other examples of lying (taken from my current relationship):

When at the bar gambling until 6:30am, only to get a call from the girlfriend asking where I am: "Sorry honey, I fell asleep on the train."

This is a good answer because she's told me I can do as I please in the sense of staying out and having my own life when I want to. However she wouldn't want me gambling. It just doesn't happen to be any of her business. Either way, I'm not home. Either way, it doesn't matter why I'm not home, so I may as well make her NOT mad at me so we can enjoy saturday afternoon after I've slept it off together.

When going to meet my female English teacher friend for a game of Trivial pursuit with other friends: "I'm going to Osaka to see some English teachers and play a board game. I'll be back on the last train."

This is a good answer because if I tell my girlfriend that I am going to meet women and will come home at last train to play a board game, the board game part starts to sound like a euphemism for sex. Now the woman's married, so it's not like anything would happen as her husband is there, but if I try to explain that it makes it sound like I'm laying ground for plausible deniability before I go and do something naughty. Just leaving out the gender keeps us both happy.

And my girlfriend probably realizes that some of these are lies. But she also trusts that I'm not out screwing her best friend either, so the lies, if there are any there, are minor, and she doesn't ask because she doesn't want to know. Not leading up to an obvious question she should make prevents her from having to ask, and we both end up more content for it.

I have stopped asking her about many details I would rather not know as well. I used to ask her who she was e-mailing on her phone when we were out together, but after she matter-of-factly stated once that it was her ex-boyfriend (who she is still friends with and I have met), I decided I just don't want to know. I have no doubts that she's faithful, so asking questions that make me doubt that is just foolish on my part, so I've stopped. Same thing with asking her who she's going out with.

And this just works better. So much better for me. Dear God it's so much less stressful, and we both have far more fun when we don't sweat the details and try to presumptively micromanage the other person's social life.

I don't see what's to stop either one of you from just having an affair and lying about it. I mean, couldn't expecting fidelity just be considered "micromanaging the other person's social life"?

Personally, I couldn't trust someone that a) I felt the need to constantly lie to and b) felt the need to constantly lie to me.

Obviously it's working for you, but I don't think you can pass this off as being some universal truth. Some people desire more trusting relationships, some just want to know there's a warm body at home most of the time.

[Psychochink]

*bangs head against wall* When will people realise that this issue has nothing to do with trust.

[Pierrot le Fou]

That is totally wrong, and is just rationalizing selfish behavior. If you are in a monogamous relationship and cheat (and "I was drunk" isn't an excuse), you made a mistake. You should have thought of the hurt you would cause when you cheated. And also, obviously you aren't the person your spouse thought you were, since they were under the assumption that you have self-control and understood what a monogamous relationship is.

Trust me, after 20 years of marriage, NOBODY thinks their spouse is perfect.

Yes, you made a mistake, but if, for instance, this cheating happened on a solo business trip 3000 miles away, it ain't going to be something your wife finds out about. So long as you wrapped it up and whatnot, the only way it can hurt your wife is if she finds out about it. And if you are the only way that's going to happen, then telling your wife is going to be what hurts her -- not the actual cheating part.

And if you're too closed-minded to see how there are some things more important in a 20 year 2 children marriage than your wife's perception of your self-control and concept of monogamy, then I hope to God you don't get married until you do. You will cause disagreements, distrust, and possibly divorce. You'll hurt your wife, you'll hurt your finances, you'll hurt your children. And all for what? Because of a drunken mistake 3000 miles away that will hurt nobody unless you tell your wife about it?

What's selfish in that situation is telling your wife. The only reason you'd do something like that is because you felt guilty, and would feel better yourself if you told. And THAT'S selfish.

Again, with this "it will hurt us both". No, you lied about who you were to get her, and established a relationship based upon a lie. This would have been avoided had you been open up front. Also, it's nothing more than wanting to not face the concequences of your actions.

How the Hell is not telling your girlfriend that you slept with 50, 500, or 5000 women a lie? Refraining from mentioning ain't a lie, and only a total and complete cretin would volunteer that information before they were on their deathbed.

Let me guess, when you first date a woman and let her see where you live, you leave it in the state it usually is with no tidying up? You wear the same clothes you'd wear going out with your friends for a night on the town as you do when out on a date with the girlfriend?

Why are you establishing a relationship based upon a lie?!

Again, it goes back to open honesty. It was your lies/deception that caused her to be in the no-win situation in the first place. Had you been open, that would've been a year and a half where she could've found someone who is the person you represented yourself as.

So let me get this straight:
Woman A and Man B are ultimately compatible people save for one problem -- woman A is a virgin. Man B despises virgins because of the complexes they have about sex, and the huge amount of problems that have come from him taking the virginity of women, because they grow to loathe him or become attached due to their inexperience with sex. You're advocating that Woman A tell Man B that she's a virgin, despite the fact that this issue would have ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE if she didn't?

You're talking about finding a 1964 corvette in near-perfect condition for a steal, but unfortunately there's a scratch in the rear fender. So you pass. Because, well, you'll have saved the time to find another 1964 near-perfect corvette by not having to repair that fender!

Ever hear of not seeing the forest through the trees?

Again, if you have established a relationship, the past shouldn't be a problem. And if you purposely withhold information you think your partner would significantly dislike, you are just being selfish. Or, you are trying to be with the wrong person.

Ah, so now we get to the heart of the matter. You're a sappy idealist who believes that there's someone perfect for you? That there is 'the right person' who requires no compromise or handling, and you can just perfectly be yourself with and live happily ever after?

Pardon me while I laugh so hard I cry.

All relationships, no matter how wonderfully matched, require effort and compromise. And guess what! Relationships also require some selfishness! Because if there's nothing that you want personally, then quite frankly your relationship isn't going to last on the power of one person's motivation. Part of that selfishness is holding back information in order to keep yourself sane, and happy, and to prevent you from loathing the sacrifices you have to make in the name of honesty to your wife.

I don't want to give up gambling 'til 6am on a weekend when I have no other binding plans to prevent me from sleeping 'til 2pm. But if I told my girlfriend every time I was out late gambling, I'd have to stop or piss her off, and then I'd have to resent her for the loss of my gambling nights with my guy friends. And would that help the relationship in the long term? Fuck no!

But I guess I just must be with the wrong woman, eh?

Unless you are in an arranged or political marriage, chances are your marriage wasn't started off on a practical basis. Suddenly talking about practicality after entering an impractical situation is silly. The problem arrises is that peole are so desparate to have someone as they get older that they will rationalize any form of behavior to achieve what they want. If more people were comfortable with themselves, you wouldn't have so many marriages (and divorces). Earlier you talked about it being harder and harder to find people. But you totally ignored the option of not marrying, which in most cases is much more practical.

Because I want to marry? Is that hard to understand? I want to have a semi-constant supply of sex for the next 15 years instead of having it be on-again off-again. I want to have someone to help me with the housework and keep me (partially) honest and clean. I want to have someone to sleep next to every night. I want to have someone to bear my children.

And yes, while I can do these things without marriage, marriage forces people to work harder at keeping things good and happy. It's motivation. The stick and carrot. And I want that for my life.

But thanks for telling me that my girlfriend is wrong for me and I should just give up on marriage.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I don't see what's to stop either one of you from just having an affair and lying about it. I mean, couldn't expecting fidelity just be considered "micromanaging the other person's social life"?

Personally, I couldn't trust someone that a) I felt the need to constantly lie to and b) felt the need to constantly lie to me.

Obviously it's working for you, but I don't think you can pass this off as being some universal truth. Some people desire more trusting relationships, some just want to know there's a warm body at home most of the time.
Well thank God you wouldn't know the other person was lying or trying to deceive you to have it fuck up your trust. I can't wait until you get in a serious relationship you think is completely honest, and after 3 years you get engaged, and then realize that your girlfriend hasn't been entirely honest with you.

Then you can toss away that relationship because she wasn't really getting her nails done every wednesday afternoon, but rather she was meeting a psychiatrist to deal with some childhood trauma.

That lying bitch.

[alansmithee]

So let me get this straight:
Woman A and Man B are ultimately compatible people save for one problem -- woman A is a virgin. Man B despises virgins because of the complexes they have about sex, and the huge amount of problems that have come from him taking the virginity of women, because they grow to loathe him or become attached due to their inexperience with sex. You're advocating that Woman A tell Man B that she's a virgin, despite the fact that this issue would have ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE if she didn't?

You're talking about finding a 1964 corvette in near-perfect condition for a steal, but unfortunately there's a scratch in the rear fender. So you pass. Because, well, you'll have saved the time to find another 1964 near-perfect corvette by not having to repair that fender!

Ever hear of not seeing the forest through the trees?

Your analogy doesn't work. If you really despise virgins, it's not the equivalent of a scratch on a fender. It's the equivalent of a missing engine. Most people don't despise something as small as a scratch in a fender of an otherwise perfect car. Nor would that stop them from purchasing it. But if knowing someone is a virgin would stop you from pursuing them, than it's much bigger than the figurative scratch.



Ah, so now we get to the heart of the matter. You're a sappy idealist who believes that there's someone perfect for you? That there is 'the right person' who requires no compromise or handling, and you can just perfectly be yourself with and live happily ever after?

Pardon me while I laugh so hard I cry.

No, but I do think there's someone who doesn't require constantly lying about my activites to. And I'm not so insecure that I'll latch onto the first person I find to stick to me just because I fear growing old alone.

All relationships, no matter how wonderfully matched, require effort and compromise. And guess what! Relationships also require some selfishness! Because if there's nothing that you want personally, then quite frankly your relationship isn't going to last on the power of one person's motivation. Part of that selfishness is holding back information in order to keep yourself sane, and happy, and to prevent you from loathing the sacrifices you have to make in the name of honesty to your wife.

I don't want to give up gambling 'til 6am on a weekend when I have no other binding plans to prevent me from sleeping 'til 2pm. But if I told my girlfriend every time I was out late gambling, I'd have to stop or piss her off, and then I'd have to resent her for the loss of my gambling nights with my guy friends. And would that help the relationship in the long term? Fuck no!

But I guess I just must be with the wrong woman, eh?

Again, you seem to fail to understand that there are different degrees to things you and your spouse can disagree about. Now, if your wife doesn't like you gambling, but wouldn't leave you for it, go ahead and not tell her. It's not a deal-breaker, it's just something she would prefer you not do. But lying about something you know would be a deal-breaker is wrong.

And also, it's possible to find compromise without resorting to outright lying. Why go out every weekend? Again, unless it's something that will end the relationship, there's usually some middle ground to be found, without simply saying "Screw her, I don't want to give anything up so I'll just lie".



Because I want to marry? Is that hard to understand? I want to have a semi-constant supply of sex for the next 15 years instead of having it be on-again off-again. I want to have someone to help me with the housework and keep me (partially) honest and clean. I want to have someone to sleep next to every night. I want to have someone to bear my children.

And yes, while I can do these things without marriage, marriage forces people to work harder at keeping things good and happy. It's motivation. The stick and carrot. And I want that for my life.

But thanks for telling me that my girlfriend is wrong for me and I should just give up on marriage.

I'm not telling you anything. All I'm doing is giving the opposing viewpoint. Obviously it's working for you. But that doesn't mean rampant dishonesty would work for everyone. Some people would rather be chance being alone than live in an enviroment that there was constant lying. Honestly, I could see the benefit of that-you could have all the niceties of marriage while constantly looking for something better.



Well thank God you wouldn't know the other person was lying or trying to deceive you to have it fuck up your trust. I can't wait until you get in a serious relationship you think is completely honest, and after 3 years you get engaged, and then realize that your girlfriend hasn't been entirely honest with you.

Then you can toss away that relationship because she wasn't really getting her nails done every wednesday afternoon, but rather she was meeting a psychiatrist to deal with some childhood trauma.

That lying bitch.

It seems you really lack the capability to diferentiate between degrees of problems. Constant lying might cause a loss of perspective. If a woman I was in a serious relationship with lied about seeing a psychologist, I might wonder why she would want to keep that from me, but it probably wouldn't be something I would leave her over. Now, if instead she was lying about nail appointments and was in reality using that time and money to feed a crack habit, she'd have to go.

Again, it's about the degree of seriousness. But if your answer to every situation is to lie, you might lose sight of that.

[Frankey-eh]

somewhere lost among the LONG replies... I read something like "it's not considered lying if you don't tell the whole truth"

this topic came up on the dinner table a couple of days ago, and I argued that not telling the whole truth=lying... because, let's explain with an example:

Your parents allows you to go to the movies, but they make it clear that they don't want you to go to anyone's house. But you end up going to the movie AND to someone's house. When you come back, and they ask what you've done, you could just tell them that you went to the movies

...but isn't that lying? They specifically told you not to go to anyone's house, and you did. And you hid it from them.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Omission of information and lying are not the same. They are just different forms of dishonesty.

My argument all along has been that honesty is not always the best policy. Both ways are being dishonest. Dishonesty is not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes lies can be good things, and omission of information can be bad, and vice versa. Western society especially attaches a huge negative meaning to lying regardless of whether or not the specific lie merits condemnation or not. Hence the huge argument in US politics over whether or not Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq, or just wasn't honest/didn't know.

Honestly, it doesn't matter either way. It's clear that he made statements that were not true. But whatever we label them as doesn't change the content of the actions, just the public perception of them. Clinton got labeled as a liar because he claimed he didn't consider oral sex to be sex. Regardless of what his perception was, it's pretty clear he was dishonest, but the label of 'liar' will stick far better than 'user of semantics.'

On to alan's plan for relationships (tm):

First Date: Man and Woman meet, each armed with two lists. One is a list of things that are 'deal-breakers' for a relationship, and the other list is of potential deal-breakers for the other person they may be a part of. The first date is spent making sure that each side knows exactly which things are definite no's, and whether or not there is any overlap between the lists making the relationship unnecessary and a waste of time.

Second Date: Assuming that neither of the lists created an immediate conflict, a second date is scheduled. This is used to further flesh out the concepts of compatibility and potential deal-breakers in far more overarching philosophies. For instance, this theory of honesty as the best policy in general, and whether or not full-disclosure is required all the time. Political views and the like are also discussed to discover if incompatibility in political views, which may not be listed as a deal-breaker, are far too different to possibly work out regardless.

Date Three: A schedule of future dating is laid out discussing weekly schedules, names of people who may assist in the commission of deal-breaking activities (for instance, ex girlfriends, past crushes, buddies who engage in behaviour the other person despises), as well as a complete recounting -- omitting no details -- of the occurrences that have happened between the first date and the current one (discussions with friends about the other person to the last detail, showering routine, room cleaning, etc.).

If all this works out, and the constant complete honesty and disclosure with each meeting reveals no problems, then marriage is potentially doable. Any lie, however, will cause the lied-to-party to be perfectly justified in dumping the other person, no matter how minor, because of the loss of trust involved in that God-awful lie. Omission is not an excuse in any case.

I know this is hyperbole, but it is really the type of garbage you're spewing Alan.

Relationships work nothing like you want them to. We meet someone, we put our best foot forward, we don't belch or fart in front of them, we try to wash our hands every time we go to the bathroom, we clean up our apartment, we make sure to wear clean clothes every time we meet up, and we generally try to make ourselves look appealing. On the flipside, the person we're meeting does the same as well. If all goes well, then dating commences.

As the length of dating increases, people tend to get a little less careful about putting the best foot forward. Maybe we won't iron all of our sweaters before meeting up. We may potentially take a shit in the other person's commode rather than holding it 'til we get home. We may leave a few dishes in the sink when someone else comes over. We may not pick up the crumpled up sweats from the corner of the bedroom. And the other person tends to relax themselves as well, not wearing full makeup to meet up for coffee in the morning, and perhaps wearing sneakers instead of heels for a casual lunch.

We decide, as the relationship progresses, whether the deal-breakers, or potential deal-breakers the other person undoubtedly has are uncompromisable. We tend to compromise more, and expect them to do the same, or else fighting commences and the relationship typically ends. If it's a pretty even relationship, with the compromises pretty-much split down the middle, it gets more serious, and people move in together, or propose, or get married.

With time, things that drove us nuts about the other person and we considered deal-breakers got compromised on their half for our sake, and we compromised our belief that they were a deal-breaker in return. The two people think they're compatible. Small issues and problems are swept under the carpet or kept out of the house entirely to prevent problems. And the relationship is more successful as a result.

Relationships and dating are not about composing a contractual obligation with clauses for early termination. They're about finding how far you can compromise, and to what point you're willing to compromise before it becomes intolerable and no longer a compromise so much as a sacrifice. Coming in with a set of deal-breakers and holding the other person to them absolutely makes you far more selfish than fibbing a bit here and there to keep the peace.

Relationships change us as people, that's what's so wonderful about them. They allow us to learn the value of compromise. They allow us to relax around someone quite a bit, and still have it be acceptable. It allows you to find that you can be perfectly content with someone who isn't perfect, because they are equally willing to accept that you aren't perfect, and work towards making it work anyway.

And part of that compromise is that you WON'T always know everything. Part of serious relationships is that the other person WILL make decisions for you at times. And if you can't accept that, which you seem to be incapable of doing, then you won't be in a relationship for long and probably shouldn't be. Sometimes you need to meet her parents, even if you don't want to. And that choice is not made by you, but by her, and you've got to cope with it. Sometimes she's going to go out and buy something for the apartment without asking you first, and you're going to have to cope with it. That's part of being in a relationship, it's called compromise, and it involves not always being the master of your own destiny.

You want to believe in 100% honesty and somesuch nonsense? Good luck finding any long-term relationship. You say that the 'rational' solution is not getting married. That may work for you, but the rest of us have no problem with compromising. I fail to see why that makes us more selfish than someone unwilling to make even the most fundamental compromise in order to create a relationship.

[alansmithee]

Omission of information and lying are not the same. They are just different forms of dishonesty.

My argument all along has been that honesty is not always the best policy. Both ways are being dishonest. Dishonesty is not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes lies can be good things, and omission of information can be bad, and vice versa. Western society especially attaches a huge negative meaning to lying regardless of whether or not the specific lie merits condemnation or not. Hence the huge argument in US politics over whether or not Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq, or just wasn't honest/didn't know.

Honestly, it doesn't matter either way. It's clear that he made statements that were not true. But whatever we label them as doesn't change the content of the actions, just the public perception of them. Clinton got labeled as a liar because he claimed he didn't consider oral sex to be sex. Regardless of what his perception was, it's pretty clear he was dishonest, but the label of 'liar' will stick far better than 'user of semantics.'

On to alan's plan for relationships (tm):

First Date: Man and Woman meet, each armed with two lists. One is a list of things that are 'deal-breakers' for a relationship, and the other list is of potential deal-breakers for the other person they may be a part of. The first date is spent making sure that each side knows exactly which things are definite no's, and whether or not there is any overlap between the lists making the relationship unnecessary and a waste of time.

Second Date: Assuming that neither of the lists created an immediate conflict, a second date is scheduled. This is used to further flesh out the concepts of compatibility and potential deal-breakers in far more overarching philosophies. For instance, this theory of honesty as the best policy in general, and whether or not full-disclosure is required all the time. Political views and the like are also discussed to discover if incompatibility in political views, which may not be listed as a deal-breaker, are far too different to possibly work out regardless.

Date Three: A schedule of future dating is laid out discussing weekly schedules, names of people who may assist in the commission of deal-breaking activities (for instance, ex girlfriends, past crushes, buddies who engage in behaviour the other person despises), as well as a complete recounting -- omitting no details -- of the occurrences that have happened between the first date and the current one (discussions with friends about the other person to the last detail, showering routine, room cleaning, etc.).

If all this works out, and the constant complete honesty and disclosure with each meeting reveals no problems, then marriage is potentially doable. Any lie, however, will cause the lied-to-party to be perfectly justified in dumping the other person, no matter how minor, because of the loss of trust involved in that God-awful lie. Omission is not an excuse in any case.

I know this is hyperbole, but it is really the type of garbage you're spewing Alan.

Relationships work nothing like you want them to. We meet someone, we put our best foot forward, we don't belch or fart in front of them, we try to wash our hands every time we go to the bathroom, we clean up our apartment, we make sure to wear clean clothes every time we meet up, and we generally try to make ourselves look appealing. On the flipside, the person we're meeting does the same as well. If all goes well, then dating commences.

As the length of dating increases, people tend to get a little less careful about putting the best foot forward. Maybe we won't iron all of our sweaters before meeting up. We may potentially take a shit in the other person's commode rather than holding it 'til we get home. We may leave a few dishes in the sink when someone else comes over. We may not pick up the crumpled up sweats from the corner of the bedroom. And the other person tends to relax themselves as well, not wearing full makeup to meet up for coffee in the morning, and perhaps wearing sneakers instead of heels for a casual lunch.

We decide, as the relationship progresses, whether the deal-breakers, or potential deal-breakers the other person undoubtedly has are uncompromisable. We tend to compromise more, and expect them to do the same, or else fighting commences and the relationship typically ends. If it's a pretty even relationship, with the compromises pretty-much split down the middle, it gets more serious, and people move in together, or propose, or get married.

With time, things that drove us nuts about the other person and we considered deal-breakers got compromised on their half for our sake, and we compromised our belief that they were a deal-breaker in return. The two people think they're compatible. Small issues and problems are swept under the carpet or kept out of the house entirely to prevent problems. And the relationship is more successful as a result.

Relationships and dating are not about composing a contractual obligation with clauses for early termination. They're about finding how far you can compromise, and to what point you're willing to compromise before it becomes intolerable and no longer a compromise so much as a sacrifice. Coming in with a set of deal-breakers and holding the other person to them absolutely makes you far more selfish than fibbing a bit here and there to keep the peace.

Relationships change us as people, that's what's so wonderful about them. They allow us to learn the value of compromise. They allow us to relax around someone quite a bit, and still have it be acceptable. It allows you to find that you can be perfectly content with someone who isn't perfect, because they are equally willing to accept that you aren't perfect, and work towards making it work anyway.

And part of that compromise is that you WON'T always know everything. Part of serious relationships is that the other person WILL make decisions for you at times. And if you can't accept that, which you seem to be incapable of doing, then you won't be in a relationship for long and probably shouldn't be. Sometimes you need to meet her parents, even if you don't want to. And that choice is not made by you, but by her, and you've got to cope with it. Sometimes she's going to go out and buy something for the apartment without asking you first, and you're going to have to cope with it. That's part of being in a relationship, it's called compromise, and it involves not always being the master of your own destiny.

You want to believe in 100% honesty and somesuch nonsense? Good luck finding any long-term relationship. You say that the 'rational' solution is not getting married. That may work for you, but the rest of us have no problem with compromising. I fail to see why that makes us more selfish than someone unwilling to make even the most fundamental compromise in order to create a relationship.


Well, for one I never advocated 100% honesty. I said earlier that I advocated 80% (and that's what I voted). And also, I don't know if it's good taking relationship advice from someone who sees honesty as garbage.

But I would take the model you attribute (falsely) to me over yours, which pretty much is to latch onto whoever will tolerate you, and do whatever it takes to make sure they stay. You don't seem to be focused so much upon finding someone to enjoy your life with, as a fear of being alone which causes you to grab whoever is near and you can manipulate into staying around. And it is marriages like that which end up full of resentment down the line, as people aren't there because they love (or even like) their spouse, but because they fear being alone. Essentially, the spouse becomes nothing more than a placeholder so that you can claim to not be alone, even if you really know nothing about them.

[alansmithee]

Also, I'm not finding where you actually talk about compromise. You are simply saying lie about things that might make your spouse uncomfortable. That's not compromise. Compromise is working things out together, not concealing them.
--
And I had to put this in a separate post because the page kept freezing when I tried to edit.

[Arctic_Slicer]

One of the most important things anyone every told me was that "good relationships are built on truth, trust, and honesty." Besides I have always been the kind of person to value integrity and love over all else.

[Collapse]

On occassion, honesty isn't always the best policy. There are times you have to lie in order to get out of a mess that's happening/going to happen, like "white lies" where you intend to escape without casuing a volatile reaction.

I stick myself to honesty to as far as I can manage to. The others I can just blatantly lie, white lie or just be damn direct.

[more cheerios]

Well, I like how you're taking my reply to the extreme. WHEN did I say 100% of the time to open up your entire mind and thoughts and tell all? That post only pertained to that ONE SITUATION IMPARTICULAR. His wife had already seen the woman multiple times, he was not telling her the whole truth and she could quite clearly tell. Not once did I say, "Oh yes, always be 100% honest on a regular basis. In every situation."
Of COURSE there are things you should never tell, but I would rather be honest to my mate than lie to keep him happy. If you have a happy relationship that is based on lies, then it is purely fluff and hardly fufilling. If you truly feel you have a bond with someone, you should be able to tell them most everything.

But thank you, PLF, for misreading my reply and completely taking it out of context.

In the quest for total honesty, the girl would tell him, "Dear, I screwed 4000 sailors on shore leave -- but don't worry, I'm clean." Hypothetical Guy B would almost certainly dump her that instant, or soon after, because regardless of if she was done with that section of her life or not, he is not going to believe that she's perfectly honest about being done, or he's going to feel inadequate, etc. Honesty is NOT the best policy there, because that information will do NOTHING but hurt the guy she cares about.
Who the hell tells someone that on a first date? That's something you wait a long time before you open up about. And even so, if he dumps her instantly because he can't accept that she's changed, who really wants to be with a person like that, anyways?

A healthy relationship included pain, anger and tears. Ask anyone: from a counsellor to a relationship book, they will all agree that those emotions are part of what makes up a healthy relationship.

[Trump]

I do think that in the situation that spawned this thread, telling the whole truth would have been the right thing to do. It was obvious the girl walked away disappointed and so it might have actually helped to say something. However, if you didn't say it in the first conversation about it, I would never mention it since she'd just get even more pissed that you didn't mention it the first time.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Because a guy who looked social mores in the face and said 'fuck it' is probably not the best guy to have in a relationship anyway, for rather obvious reasons.

[Ceirnian]

I believe in being honest about betrayals. Cheating for instance is something that just shouldn't be done, but if it happens (being drunk / drugged up isn't an excuse. You chose to do it) you should let your spouse know. Also, if your spouse -really- wants to know what your sexual history is like... I say tell them. Just don't give the information out just because.

Omission of small facts I have no problem with. If you go out to a movie with a few female friends and are asked about it, saying "I went out with a few friends to see a movie" works fine. There's no need to make someone feel more jealous by worrying about the details of who (unless you suspect betrayal).

Going to keep it short since plenty of other posts have given a detailed explanation on what I'm saying.

[Jon885]

I vote 80% for secrets.

[decswxaqz]

I've read all the replies but can't be bothered to go and quote people so I'll just say it.

I vote for 100% honesty. But if the person doesn't ask the question AND I feel it would cause unnecessary pain/discomfort etc, I won't say it. The analogy of past sex life. This I would say to my partner if there was a chance my past would come back to haunt me. I feel that there is a big difference between lying and not saying anything. I've learnt to keep my mouth shut but if someone asks, I'll tell them.
Everyone feels hurt, detrayed, insulted whatever, if something is revealed later on. There is isn't distrust to the person because they were not truthful to you. This you would have to agree on PLF?

But this is an example of hiding the truth or not saying anything. If the person asked me about my past sex life then I would be truthful, as I would want her to be. If we both have a sordid past then all the better(?), but if not, it can be discussed before the relationship starts in ernest. If she wouldn't be happy with my past sex life then she is free to leave without any hardships between us. I would never lie if people asked the question.

I've had too many experiences of hiding stuff because my mum. She didn't want to tell my step-dad things, I was told (for some reason she tells me then tells me not to say anything...) not to say stuff to him. Ocassionally I'd just forget and something would slip out, it'd cause problems and so on and so forth. I'd much rather not have to live through that again. It'd be like a secret agent, having to remember what you told everyone. I just couldn't do that. From a selfish point of view, it's just so much easier for me to say the truth. I'd also expect everyone else to to me.

So I say 100% truth, and if it is required, hiding what little is necessary.


On a side note, let's keep the analogies down shall we? We can all think up of analogies to prove our point. And there are always exceptions to the rules. Analogies just take up more real estate too, and make bay Jesus cry :rolleyes:

[Snake eyeS]

OK here i go again, sharing my bad personality with the rest so you guys can shoot me down :)

Im 22 and i lie, not that much, but i do keep everything out of the conversation that can either directly hurt the person im talking to or would put me in a bad light. not to my real friends, they get the cold hard truth because i care about them.

My entire relationship is going on 1 big fat lie. We have agreed to tell eachother if someone else comes around and then we would end the relation, aslong as that woudnt happen... we would still date. you can guess what mr snakey has been doing the last 1 year. i dont tell her about my flirts, so from my perspective i dont think i am hurting her.. if she would find out then she would be hurt, but tough shit girls.. im not going to get caught.

Some info about this girl: Next to bieng hotter then hot(i would put up a pic but im not sharing her.) She really looks forward when she can see me again, and because it doesnt happen that often she is happy all the time when im around. if i would tell her i kissed a total stranger and that i dont even remember her name, she might be heartbroken, why would i want to hurt her by telling the truth? would it make me sleep better in the night.. hell no.. if i would be honest i would feel shit for making her feel bad, and that would make me sleep bad in the night. Im not leading her on. i always ask her if she is still happy with the thing we have going on. why would i come clean anyways, no concience(sp) here, and im sure as hell arent gonna fess up because some goody 2 shoes wants me to.

I am her entertainment. She is from a small village and when im there im the perfect boyfriend, her parents love me and her siblings think im a real nice lad(and guess what, i really am) but when i drive home i act totally single again. and it works.. im happy, she is happy..

only downfall.. my mondays and thuesdays are boring.. most of my friends are or with their girlfriend and im here behind the comp thinking its about time i should go to my sorta girlfriend.

Oww and please do not see this as a glorified sex relation, i had one of those and we didnt speak nor communicate anything but sex when we saw eachother.. with this girl i goto the movies, take long walks, go shopping and all the relationship stuff.. i even have a very good relationship with her entire family. which i enjoy i might add. but not enough to spend all my free time seeing her.

Now shoot me down.. i can take it.

[Darza]

Interesting exchange here only a couple of things i thought to comment on..just the 2 cents of a lurker... hehe

first,the subject of your partner's past reminds me of the scene in Chasing Amy,Silent bob's little monologue about having to know.I think the past is the past...whatever happened before we were together isn't really any of my business.If a woman shares her past with me.. hey that's great if not,i don't need to know and it certainly doesn't qualify as being dishonest. (I know no one said it does,just stating an opinion,not rebutting anything already said) Of course it's a two-way street, i don't feel the need to share about the past unless she wants to know and i'm in the mood to.

As far as cheating goes unless your in an "open" relationship it's just wrong.There is NO situationial excuse for it..the i/she was drunk line is pure bull.Always hate when anyone uses that as an excuse to justify doing something they either know is dead wrong or just simply unwise.I ran with a pretty wild crew in my hay-day and no matter how wasted i was,i always knew the difference between right and wrong.If i did cross the line on something i made the choice not mr. yagermister.Cheating is one subject that requires 100% honesty. If you/your partner make the mistake better to come clean right away..yeah it's going to be horrible but it's the best option,either try to salvage the relationship or part ways.

[koku]

Intention and sincere want to do good for the other person>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> honesty.

[Kaji]

I like to be honest when I speak, even if it's brutal honesty. Yes, there are times when it's better to not be honest. In those situations, I just don't say anything.

Sums up what I was thinking quite well.

[stoningcrows]

I believe there are relationships where brutal honesty works and ones where a little white lie wouldn't hurt.

I don't think there's actually a rule where you should be brutally honest or lie about it. Rather you should find someone that accomodates your style instead of the other way around.

I think its important that you have a system worked out before anything serious happens. Because, face-it, there are other women( or men) out there that you wouldn't mind spending a night with. As long as you are comfortable with each other's level of promiscuity, then it should be fine. The same goes for honesty, trust, and everything else. I don't believe that having good communication with your partner necessarily stands for complete honesty.

If relationships were that easy then I'm sure everyone would have figured it out by now.

[Jay]

Strangely enough this is my first visit to this thread.

I can't answer that poll, because I can't tell you if "most" of the time is 80%, or 90%, or what.

What I CAN tell you is this. A person that I know and love very much recently taught me, just by being herself, that honesty is much better than using people to your own end, and for your own interests, which, I'm frankly quite ashamed of myself to admit, is what I used to once do. I used to use people to get exactly what I wanted out of them, and then when I was finished with them, either tossed them away or kept them around because I'd done such a job on them that I knew I could keep soaking them.

I'm pretty damn embarrassed with myself to admit it, but this girl, and she knows who she is, has given my attitude the shake-up it needed. Using people may be a way to get a quick fix each day, but honestly, in the long run, is a MUCH better policy, because you burn less bridges and earn the trust of people.

Meh, I'm feeling emo right now... screw you all. :p

[Veren]

"Honesty is the key to a relationship. If you can fake that, you're in."
-- Richard Jeni

:D

[Encryp]

Dont have to lie, just dont tell them. Kinda hard to do if asked a direct question though.

[delen]

Honesty is always the best policy when you are interacting with me meaningfully (close friend/significant other). If other people do not want to know the truth, that's fine, but I do (100% of the time no excuses).

[Loc]

heh I'd say honesty was best 100% of the time too but sometimes you have to bend the truth a little so as not to hurt someone's feelings...Not a blatant lie but still, not completely honest.

[DarkFire168]

I care about my girlfriend. We are honest about the important things with each other, like std's, birth control, schedules, etc. But stuff like "Does my ass look big in this?" ? Yeah, I totally say "No, your ass looks perfect in that Mina-chan." No matter WHAT the circumstances. It's called tact... though usually her ass looks pretty hot no matter what she's wearing, if she's in fact wearing anything at all >>

[DarkFire168]

Well, I like how you're taking my reply to the extreme. WHEN did I say 100% of the time to open up your entire mind and thoughts and tell all? That post only pertained to that ONE SITUATION IMPARTICULAR. His wife had already seen the woman multiple times, he was not telling her the whole truth and she could quite clearly tell. Not once did I say, "Oh yes, always be 100% honest on a regular basis. In every situation."
Of COURSE there are things you should never tell, but I would rather be honest to my mate than lie to keep him happy. If you have a happy relationship that is based on lies, then it is purely fluff and hardly fufilling. If you truly feel you have a bond with someone, you should be able to tell them most everything.

But thank you, PLF, for misreading my reply and completely taking it out of context.


Who the hell tells someone that on a first date? That's something you wait a long time before you open up about. And even so, if he dumps her instantly because he can't accept that she's changed, who really wants to be with a person like that, anyways?

A healthy relationship included pain, anger and tears. Ask anyone: from a counsellor to a relationship book, they will all agree that those emotions are part of what makes up a healthy relationship.


Well you did come off in posts after that as thinking 100% honesty was the only route.

The hypothetical situation wasn't a first date thing (unless I misread it) it was they were in a relationship and she told him later.

Also, why does everyone put so much stock in what a book says? I don't have pain or anger or tears in my relationship, but it's perfectly healthy. I don't think they're necessary in a healthy relationship, in fact I think PAIN is a BAD thing in a relationship.

[more cheerios]

And I quite disagree with you. Why? People who write these books know what they are talking about and have helped people with relationships. Where do you think people go for advice when their marriage starts going downhill? The same people who wrote those books.

I can assure you that a healthy marriage (or even a long-term relationship) will include pain, tears and anger. We're both eighteen. We don't fully understand the strife of a serious, long-term relationship. My longest has been one year.

[Gage]

It is with a heavy heart (and deep regret, but he's right) that I throw some of my support towards more cheerios on this one.

People aren't 100% compatible or 100% comfortable with each other, it just doesn't work that way.

Oh, fuck.. one year? Four years and counting, here....

EVeryone fights, everyone cries, blah blah blah. It really is a part of life and a part of being in a relationship in particular. No one is going to be 100% compliant with everything that happens. Relationships = work. Work meaning "you can't just sit here and think it's all gonna work out, you have to participate".

[Soli]

Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is a better defense. :D
...Although pleading insanity in a court case will only land you in an asylem.

[decswxaqz]

For those that think honesty isn't the best policy (http://www.iamlost.com/features/leash/), you might need one of these. If your other half knows you lie, don't mind if you are lied to, you should use one of these because they are probably cheating on you :).

[Exclamatio]

i am 100% open and honest with my fiance, it woprks much better that way

i tell her if i think a girl is hot, she tells me if she thinks a guy is cute
i tell her how beautiful she is and she tells me how good looking she thinks i am

if i do/dont wanna do something ill tell her and she will do the same

[Pierrot le Fou]

And if you can find a relationship that truly works in with no resentment or need for secrets, then good on you. I've been in relationships with people from VERY disparate cultures (African-born [Senegal], American, and Japanese) and I can entirely guarantee you that dating cultures are REALLY BLOODY DIFFERENT and that making broad generalizations based on a singular current relationship is silly.

Even if it is your fiancee. I'm sure she's lovely and all that, but it just can't be extrapolated.

[alansmithee]

For those that think honesty isn't the best policy (http://www.iamlost.com/features/leash/), you might need one of these. If your other half knows you lie, don't mind if you are lied to, you should use one of these because they are probably cheating on you :).

Oddly enough, I know far more leashed guys than girls. One guy I know who recently got married I would swear has an electric collar that won't let him go more than 1/2 mile from his house.

[Jay]

^ Your name doesn't happen to have anything to do with the Man Utd player, does it?

[Exclamatio]

And if you can find a relationship that truly works in with no resentment or need for secrets, then good on you. I've been in relationships with people from VERY disparate cultures (African-born [Senegal], American, and Japanese) and I can entirely guarantee you that dating cultures are REALLY BLOODY DIFFERENT and that making broad generalizations based on a singular current relationship is silly.

Even if it is your fiancee. I'm sure she's lovely and all that, but it just can't be extrapolated.


lol why bother to compare it with any1 else or any other situation?

i simply stated my current relationship and how well it is working with the whole 100% honesty

i think ur just trying to show off some big words and a small penis ;)

[Pierrot le Fou]

Clearly.

This is all a futile attempt to make up with words what I can't do in the sack. You saw right through me.

[Ceirnian]

I knew it! All of your posts are based around lacking in the sack!

[mediocre]

Some people just can't handle the truth. And some truths very few people could bear the weight of. It's rather naive to think that pure unadulterated honesty is a good foundation for any type of relationship.

[Exclamatio]

Clearly.

This is all a futile attempt to make up with words what I can't do in the sack. You saw right through me.


oh no im noty saying ur making them up

im saying u took an opportunity to try and say someone was wrong when infact u didnt need to :P

its almost as if ur trying to win a whose got the bigger arsehole contest, when infact all u would have to do is provide a picture with measurements

[Duke]

Well, I can be short about it......the truth hurts, especially when you receive a bitchslap from your wife/girlfriend ;)

[Suneru]

I voted for 40% honesty. Pierrot, I'm just curious how you voted. (I would have voted for the "when you want to end the relationship causing the most amount of pain possible" but I didnt see it (笑)

[Kaji]

I voted for 40% honesty. Pierrot, I'm just curious how you voted. (I would have voted for the "when you want to end the relationship causing the most amount of pain possible" but I didnt see it (?)

If you click the numbers it shows he picked 40%, and all the gag ones...hehehe...

[Suneru]

You can vote more than once? That's a let down

[Kaji]

Hmmm...just noticed you're in Itabashi...Daitou Bunka student, by any chance?

[Suneru]

I aint no student. I be the teacher.

[Kaji]

Ah, ok. I was an exchange student over at Higashimatsuyama campus about a year ago, so I figured it was worth asking, as I've never heard of anything else down that way. Only dropped in once or twice at Itabashi because it was a pain having to do all the switches on the trains...hehehe...