Japanese History

[Saitou Hajime]

I love Japanese history, but never have anyone to talk to about it. I figured this place is the best choice to attempt to do so. What are your guys' favorite periods or events in Japanese history? I'm most interested in the Meiji Revolution and Restoration, especially the Shinsengumi. I recently picked up "Shinsengumi: The Shogun's Last Samurai Corps" by Romulus Hillsborough (the author of "Ryoma: Life of a Renaissance Samurai") and so far it's great. I'm disappointed that it only focuses majorly on Hijikata and Kondo rather than other members, especially the squad captains, but it's still very good. I recommend both books for anyone interested in the fall of the Tokugawa era and the beginning of the Meiji, or those interested in the modernization of Japan. Both books provide views from both sides of the war, and as with most events, there really is no way to tell which side was right.

[Frankey-eh]

Taiga drama 2004: Shinsengumi!

It was the best... well, at least the beginning. I watched till June

[Saitou Hajime]

I want to get all of the Shinsengumi series, but some are so expensive. The NHK one is about $300.

[Invictus]

All Japanese history is interesting, but I have a great interest in the waning days of the Sengoku Jidai. That's not overly surprising, considering the school of martial art I now practice (Shinkage-ryu heiho) was founded in those days...

[Xuande]

I'm not terribly familiar with Japanese history, but I loved reading (an English translation of) Sei Shonagon's The Pillow Book, which I believe was set during the Heian period, before the rise of the samurai. It felt almost like I knew the author, and I've never felt that way with such an old work of literature before. Perhaps it was just the particular translation I have, but there's something very modern about it. That said, it's rather bracing in parts because of the author's tendency to make off-handed sexist and classist remarks.

[Henjin]

I discovered a book called 'Taisho Chic - Japanese Modernity Nostalgia and Deco'
Since then, I've really liked nihonga ukiyoe from the early Taisho period. It's something about the melding of the traditional ukiyoe art w/ the modern techniques/themes that I like. Woodblock printings of Japanese girls in kimono w/ flapper hair dos rock. Heh.

Aside from that, I don't have a particular affinity for any period. I'm more interested in just the language itself.

[NERD]

I'm interested in how Japanese deals with their history before and around World War II. It's something they still haven't put it behind them, in contrast to Germany and their war crimes, or Koizumi making a point of visiting Yasukuni shrines.

[Henjin]

Don't Mention The War!!

[Zslash]

Don't Mention The War!!

Well, you can if you want to see how fast a person can get from :) to :mad:

Its plenty interesting, but its a mine field.

[Saitou Hajime]

From what you guys know of the Meiji Revolution, based only on reasons why they were fighting (and not on the outcome: Don't pick the Imperialists because they won), which side do you think was "right"? Sure, both sides had good reasons for fighting, but I feel one side had better reasons.

I'd choose the Shogunate's side. They were being fought by the Ishin Shishi mainly because of their treatment of the foreigners (letting them into the country). They had no choice, however. Were they to fight the foreigners, they'd lose, like the Choshu clan found out by attacking foreign ships at Shimonoseki. Despite their arguments against allowing the foreigners in, the Ishin Shishi still won by importing foreign weapons. Their government also "modernized" Japan through foreign trade. The way I see it, both sides eventually succumbed to interaction with foreigners; however, the Shogunate realized it first.

[NERD]

Don't Mention The War!!

That makes it another reason to mention it.

In all honesty, Japan is in denial with the entire thing. They are willing to call themselves victims of Hiroshima/Nagasaki yet unwilling to recognize tragedy in Nanjing, calling it a mere 'incident'. And the Prime Minister making a case to visit to Yasukuni where there's a shrine dedicated to war criminals and a museum spreading extreme right-wing propaganda. Not to mention Japan "Self Defense Force" being one of the best equipped military forces in the world.

[chinesejycc]

My favorite era was when Commodore Perry went to Japan.

[charrick]

Although I still don't know all that much about it, I think that the Meiji period was quite interesting. It's cool not only because Rurouni Kenshin takes place in that time period, but it's also the period when Japan started to modernize and become a global leader (and later, a tyrant...and then again leader). People say of Japan that right now, the modern and traditional overlap, but I don't really see much of the traditional anymore. But the Meiji jidai was completely about the dichotomy between old and new.

You've probably heard of Wikipedia, but in case you haven't, you can find out more about the Meiji jidai by clicking on the link below. And through the links, you can find out about the other historical periods and the major figures of the times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_era

[NERD]

I'm a nitpicking sort of person, so don't mind me. I just can't stomach Japan=global leader. In fact, I don't like the idea of any country being called as global leader, nor do I approve of the group called G8. The countries being called as 'global leaders' are admittedly one of the most affluent nations in the world, certainly the cream of the crop amongst 'developed' countries, but that came at the price of colonialism and exploitation, which continues today. Can't say I agree with some of the actions and the lack thereof from these 'global leaders'.

[stsparky]

Mongol invasions of Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Japan) are what I find fascinating.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Mokoshuraiekotoba.jpg/350px-Mokoshuraiekotoba.jpg

I got hooked on them due to Robert Shea's Shike books.

- Sparky

[Henjin]

Doesn't look like anyone caught my 'Fawlty Towers' reference, so I'll just come out and say I was joking w/ the 'Don't mention the war' comment... Though I guess it's not all bad since it led to some interesting conversation. :p

[NERD]

Doesn't look like anyone caught my 'Fawlty Towers' reference, so I'll just come out and say I was joking w/ the 'Don't mention the war' comment... Though I guess it's not all bad since it led to some interesting conversation. :p

See, I didn't know there were Germans around.

[Henjin]

There are... I mentioned it a few times, but I think I got away with it... But whatever you do, DON'T MENTION THE WAR!

[NERD]

It's your avatar that gave me the impressions that you MAY be Japanese and be a bit offended about talking World War II and Japan. It's something I probably will never talk to a Japanese person unless they were to bring it up first, and even then I'd be careful.

"Oh German! I thought there was something wrong with you."

[Henjin]

lol
No, I'm far from Japanese. But I wouldn't bring it up either. When I was looking for a gift to bring to the friends I was meeting in Japan, I was walking through Meijers when I saw the latest special edition of Time magazine. I said "Hey, I should buy that one for them..." 'World War II - America's Triumph in the Pacific' with a huge picture of a sinking Japanese battleship or something. Heh.

"We didn't start it!"
"Yes you did!"
"No we didn't!"
"You invaded Poland, didn't you?"

[Pierrot le Fou]

Coincidentally, the girlfriend is a 坂本 (sakamoto) from Shikoku. Perhaps a long lost relative of Sakamoto Dragon-Horse?

My favourite period is the end of the warring states/beginning of the Edo period. Ieyasu was one smart mo-fo. Tokugawa's got my back.

[NERD]

I think it's probably the favorite part of the history for most Japanese, of Nobunaga, Hideyoshi, and Ieyasu. Though Minamoto Yoshitsune is my favorite Japanese historical character.

[hanacker]

My favorite era was when Commodore Perry went to Japan.

I'm somehow related to him. My uncle is named Perry after the Commodore.

[Saitou Hajime]

Speaking of Sakamoto Ryoma, I think it's sad that he doesn't get as much recognition as he should. Books I see out here in America (very few) about the Meiji Revolution, or a biography of Saigo Takamori, give no more than a few words about Ryoma. Sure, he was a behind-the-scenes guy back then... but this is now. We have the information on him, and he should be more heavily recognized for what he did.

[Invictus]

Sakamoto Ryoma: The Indispensable Nobody. ;)

[Hito]

www.samurai-archives.com
Great if you're interested in the Sengoku era, mainly.
It does cover other periods as well.

Personally, I took a strong interest in Uesugi Kenshin and Takeda Shingen. Both were such awesome strategists.

[jindojim]

ugh...japanese history. Feudal wars, i love samurai, ninjas, blah blah. I don't know y people are fascinated with it, the unification of China was much more interesting (read "Romance of the Three Kingdoms"). and the military strategies were all taken from China too....much like a lot of other "Japanese" things. Samurai swords...adapted from Korean swords. Ramen noodles...an adaptation of the Chinese lo mein noodles. "Japanese" ceramics...when Japan invaded Korea (the 1st time) they brought back potters from Korea and had them make pottery.

Don't get me started on when the Japanese started experiencing "manifest destiny", especially in the late 19th Century. The Japanese back then were war loving sociopaths who were just as, if not more, insane than the Nazis. Hehe, my biased 2 cents on Japanese history.

[Hito]

...How can you compare the samurai to the Nazis?!

[Ichisan]

Just why did the Japanese invade Korea in 1592 with 200,000 men? I'm curious.

[jindojim]

Hideyoshi wanted to expand Japanese territory and wanted to show the strength of his newly unified Japan, among other reasons. If you analyze a map of Asia from Japan's point of view, Korea is a key military strategy point. Being on an island means limited resources and space. With Korea in their hands, they would have easier access to entering China and more land. Though they failed on these 1st attempts during the Tokugawa Jidai, you can see how annexing Korea enabled Japan to establish its dominance over all of Asia during the early 20th Century. It is also during this time that they committed war crimes equal to or even greater than the Nazis.

Samurai aren't Nazis but they're still insane, hehe. And a pretty corrupt bunch in their later years.

[Pierrot le Fou]

The samurai era ended during the 19th century. And many of the samurai who went on to join the new Meiji government were certainly comparable to Nazis for some of the things they thought was in the best interest of Asia.

[Saitou Hajime]

Samurai aren't Nazis but they're still insane, hehe.

Saying Samurai are insane is rather ignorant. By most people's standards today, would they be insane? Possibly. However, it all deals with upbringing and society. Had you been raised in that time you were NOT think Samurai were insane, just like you were raised during this time and think they are. Things such as seppuku which may be viewed as "insane" by us were "honorable" to them, all because that's how they were raised to feel about it.

[Scott]

If you think samurai are insane, then I wonder what you think of special forces troops who go on dangerous missions with little or no compensation, for the sake of "god and country". They stand a high chance of dying and sometimes realize that it's better to die than be captured. Hm.

There's also religious fanatics.

How about America's fascination with body image? That's a bit "insane".

There's a lot that's "insane". I wouldn't be so judgmental.

[Komachi Angel]

Why did they attack Korea? Well

Think about this- you have a whole country of people who have been more or less completely divided and fighting with each other for control and power for a damn long time. Now, you have finally managed to get them all together and there is no more fighting. So, tensions start to rise.

Hideyoshi looks at this and thinks, 'oh shit', and makes an attack on Korea. No only this, but since all his enemies are away killing themselves for him, he can keep a little bit better control over the newly united country.

Not the onyl reason, but one of them (resources, land, yadda yadda). For all I have heard, the attacks seem to have been total failures.

As for whether the samurai were insane, I don't think so. Sure, it was a nasty life, but so are heaps of things. And seppuku is often romanticised, but this doesn't include the number of people who had to be held down and killed or who were too scared to do it themselves.

[jindojim]

If you think samurai are insane, then I wonder what you think of special forces troops who go on dangerous missions with little or no compensation, for the sake of "god and country". They stand a high chance of dying and sometimes realize that it's better to die than be captured. Hm.

There's also religious fanatics.

How about America's fascination with body image? That's a bit "insane".

There's a lot that's "insane". I wouldn't be so judgmental.

so...what's your point? if anything, you're likening the samurai to other groups we would consider "insane". it's nice to have a romantic image of samurai, but the truth is that a good number of them were corrupt criminals, using their skills to rob and plunder. not to mention their competition with merchants to sleep with the kabuki actors (cuz of their pride in their caste). even the "honorable" samurai went out and slaughtered innocent people just because their shogun ordered it. especially in the time when they were the only ones who were allowed to carry swords. all this just so shoguns could solve their petty disputes and power cravings.
japanese history has glorified the samurai, but that's only their bias. the other side is that they were sociopathic murderers who relished combat so they could prove themselves. do most people consider the Nazis insane? yes. the samurai and, for that matter, the kamikaze pilots are very similar to the Nazis, yet, because Westerners have this exoticized view of Japan, they're seen as true and honorable warriors. i feel anyone who is brainwashed to serve a single person with their life is insane, and I have every right to do so. Just cuz they're history doesn't mean they're above critique.

[NERD]

When I studied the Japanese invasion of Korea in 1592 during Korean History, the book mentioned that Japan initially asked Korea if they would let Japanese soldiers march through the peninsula so they could go to China. Now, if you got common sense, then letting the hostile neighbor march through your backyard to go and attack your right-next door is NEVER a good idea. Plus, I don't think it was Hideyoshi's aim to just 'march through Korea to China'.

200,000 men is a huge number, even by today's standards. Especially if they were trained soldiers with years of battle experience during the unification of Japan. Plus, having that large number of soldiers could undermine Hideyoshi's authority if they ever turned sour, so it made sense for him to send them out. At best he'd have Korea and China as new territories, at worst he'd let the soldiers die. From what I heard though, Tokugawa sent money for the war efforts instead of his own soldiers.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Samurai was a caste. That's like saying, 'Knights were insane!'

It makes no sense to state that they are insane out of any sort of context whatsoever.

[Saitou Hajime]

1) the other side is that they were sociopathic murderers who relished combat so they could prove themselves.



2) i feel anyone who is brainwashed to serve a single person with their life is insane

1) - Yes, Ryoma Sakamoto and Katsu Kaishu (the former of which only killed 1 person in self defense) were such sociopathic murderers. Damn all those Samurai.

- Yes, those Samurai were such brutal, sociopathic murderers that they took up poetry! :O

- Yes, they were all such sociopathic murderers that over the 250 years of Tokugawa rule and peaceful times, they actually rarely fought and many lost the will to do so!

[/sarcasm]

2) - If that were true, would not all Samurai commit seppuku upon their master's death? The term "Ronin" shouldn't even exist, then, if we go by your stereotypes of Samurai.

And yes, that's what they are, stereotypes. You're stereotyping a whole caste that's centuries old, saying they're insane, viewing them all as the same. You can't get farther from the truth. Were there bad, corrupt ones? Damn right. Were there loyal, honorable ones? Damn right. It's just like any other profession that exists today or ever existed in this world; there's the good and the bad.

Now please, before assuming all the Samurai were the same, do a little bit of research. You assume all Samurai valued their swords as an extension of themselves, as their soul, I'm guessing? Ryoma Sakamoto sold his when he needed money, and basically said to one of his friends that they can stick their sword up their ass and that it wasn't a Samurai's soul. :P

Stereotypes are bad.

[jindojim]

Citing specific individuals who were atypical samurai won't do you any good. Yes, I'm making stereotypes, but I seriously have no qualms saying they, as a group, were insane. And, thanks for reminding me, those damn crusaders too were insane :P. I once again want to compare the samurai to the Nazis. Were there good Nazis? Yes Did many secretly oppose Hitler's regime? Yes And were there Nazis who weren't brainwashed soldiers? Yes Can I still say the Nazis were insane? Yes So that brings me back to my point, why can I not say the samurai, as a whole, were insane?

Sorry, I'm just a samurai hater. And Japanese soldier hater. I know it prob offends you guys, loving Japanese history so much, but I don't have much sympathy for the Japanese in their past. I'll admit it's an interesting subject, and the individuals mentioned are truly outstanding characters in history. However, individuals become outstanding because they don't follow the norm.

[NERD]

As a Korean American, I don't like Japanese invasion of Korea or their occupation during the early 20th century. I've never shied away from voicing my opinion in that part of the history, and I still believe Japanese government gotta start acting like their German counterparts in terms of their war crimes. But that doesn't take me apart from loving samurai films and other parts of Japanese history. I don't think there's anything wrong with that!

By the way, even though Koreans are still angry about Japan's reaction to the whole occupation, including Koizumi's recent visits to Yasukuni shrine, they still have a lot of things going on, and Korean stars like Bae Yong Jun is BIG in Japan- yon-sama they call him, I believe. That says a lot to me.

[stsparky]

... Korean stars like Bae Yong Jun is BIG in Japan- yon-sama they call him, I believe. That says a lot to me.

It's funny that Japanese women want Yong-sama so much. He looks like a grown up Asian Harry Potter. Korean film is also the "big" thing. Most Japanese also enjoy Korean BBQ tons. I think on a one to one level Korean-Japanese relationships work — it's only politics that make group behavior so screwy. - Sparky

[NERD]

Personally, yon-sama freaks me out. My mom was watching Winter Sonata the other day, and it just amazes me that so many women would find him attractive. And yeah, there's quite some number of Korean celebrities who made it big in Japan, most notably BoA, and Japanese have been indulging in kimchi, Korean BBQ, etc.

But when you see people like Koizumi and other notable politicians siding with the extreme right-wingers who say some crazy stuff, you can't help but think that those politicans must be acting in such manner because they see voters who align themselves with such ideologies.

[jindojim]

Alright! Another Korean American :) Seriously tho, Japanese history and Koreans do not mix. So it was a little radical of me to say such things about samurai, but they did come over to attack my ancestors with Hideyoshi. And they decimated a lot of the peninsula in land assaults, but due to the genius of Admiral Yi Sun Shin, we were able to route them at sea. Twice Hideyoshi and his Japanese samurai tried to invade Korea and both times he was repelled at sea. It wasn't until the late 19th Century - early 20th Century when Japan tried again. The Japanese betrayed and assassinated the last king and queen of Korea and officially annexed Korea in 1905. And then...they began their oppressive reign to wipe out all vestiges of Korean culture which is quite comparable to what was going on in Germany. Not to mention officially sanctioning "comfort stations" where kidnapped Korean women were forced to have sex with hundreds of soldiers every day for several years. And these scars still remain in Korea too. So, I don't particularly share the similar romanticized sentiments of the Japanese history as others.

I do like tho that the Japanese are really accepting Korean culture these days. Although you have the occasional radical faction claiming that the popularity of Korean culture is a conspiracy by the Korean government, the relationship between Japan and Korea, at least in the eyes of the Japanese, is much better than it was even 3 or 4 years ago. Koreans aren't willing to let go of old scars so easily, so the relationship is a little strained on the Korean side. Perhaps BoA forged some of it (she's KOREAN damnit, NOT japanese), but the union really started with the joint hosting of the 2002 World Cup by Korea and Japan. Then Winter Sonata with Yon-sama came out and middle-aged married women starting drooling over him. I could (and actually have to) write an essay on this phenomenon alone for a class but now is not the time. He actually had more people turn out for his arrival to Japan than Brad Pitt did on a similar visit, and his face was ubiquitous when I went there, especially on ads for Sony's Cybershot. Of course you'll find a lot of Japanese also love yakiniku (Korean BBQ) and "kimuchi" (cuz they can't say kimchi). Korean dramas can be seen regularly on Japanese TV, and Korean men have an image as being sensitive and caring boyfriends. So...in case you don't know what my avatar is, it's the symbol for this year to be the Korean and Japanese friendship year.