What if there is Absolute Proof there is no God? [Archive]

Mogymog

10-17-2005, 09:21 PM

Once again Nagy.. I have to claim your an idiot... I'm sorry, there is no other way.. I believe in evolution and am a spiritulalist. I refuse to believe your inane BS statement I have to be Athiest or Religious/Spiritual and that's it. That is a load of bullspit and you know it...

Even if you can prove that humans didn't evolve from monkeys, and that we just 'magicaly' appeared here cause god created us. Adam/Eve are /not/ the same kind of humans that we are today. They evolved to be us. So frankly, it's the point stands. I'm a believe of evolution and am spiritual.

If you can't handle it.. thats not my fault. And please don't respond with one of your replies trying to prove me wrong.. You can't. This is my faith, and I will believe in it, just as others believe in theirs. You cannot change my faith, anymore then I can change your belief in anything.

CNagy

10-17-2005, 09:25 PM

Dude, you really don't pick your battles well. Did you even comprehend the statement? Did you read the follow-up?

It doesn't matter if you believe in evolution or not. Do you believe it is the proof that God does not exist? No? Then you are not an atheist. Simple as that. And you will reject the atheist's view that evolution is the proof of the non-existence of God. Simple as that.

Myrsilus

10-17-2005, 09:57 PM

I have no idea why Mogy did not understand what Cnagy was saying... Beyond me. Nice explanation, bud.

Well, I sort of believe in God, just not in the same sense as my Catholic family might like. If a group was able to provide proof that God did not exist, then it would really have no effect on me since I do not really believe in the God they would most likely be speaking about. I'm more scientific in my idea of God.

None of that may make sense... Point is it would not bother me. I sure know a lot of people that would be pissed, though.

Mittens

10-17-2005, 10:09 PM

We live in godless times... I cannot see how faith can be so easily put into something that has no proof of existence, or how a god that has created us, refuses to hear calls of prayer and continually lets us be subject to pain and misery.

This whole 'His great plan' is just a futile hope to cling onto so that death need not be so terrifying. I personally, do not believe in god, but I do believe in another plane of existence after death.

Sock Full of Boiled Dimes

10-18-2005, 01:24 AM

I thought I escaped this crap when I was on the NG.com boards.

Woo hoo I love how everyone who happens to be an average person posting on a forum must obviously know all the complexities of the universe.

You sure fooled me into thinking this god person doesn't exist. MAN! What was I thinking when the answer was right in front of me this whole time on a forum!
[/sarcasm]

Seriously, everyone is acting like morons when it comes to topics like these. Yes I made a post or two trying to back up God existance, but I really shouldn't have to in the first place.

You all are so quick to decide that "this is the way it is and I really don't need this fictional character running my life".

Is religion such an annoying thing to everyone that we constantly have to bicker about what exsist or doesn't?

DO NOT MAKE THESE TOPICS ANYMORE BECAUSE ALL YOU DO IS ANGER PEOPLE!

KKF

10-18-2005, 02:13 AM

This would never be an issue. Evolution was seen as proof that God did not exist, according to the scientific community. The religious community denounced it. When it comes to faith, you simply ignore proof against your faith, regardless of how irrefutable the proof is supposed to be. That is the nature of faith.

So, undeniable proof will lead the Athiests to say that there is no God (which is what they already say) and the religious to denounce the proof and state their continued faith in God (which is what they already do.)

Its all a matter of how you look at the bible though. You can look at it as a book that is not fallable or one that is and was written a certain way for the audience of that time.

So I ask you without taking things in the bible at face value give me proof that god does not exist. You can't or you would be on the face of the news. Just like how I can't prove that god does exist.

I'll leave you with the saying my father told me once. "While I can't prove their is no god, what if their isn't? That would make life very sad." (Rough english translation, but you get the idea.) Also take the time and read the book, "The Stranger" it deals with this issue in a very unique way. Its written by Camus.

Radiance

10-18-2005, 07:01 AM

Its all a matter of how you look at the bible though. You can look at it as a book that is not fallable or one that is and was written a certain way for the audience of that time.

So I ask you without taking things in the bible at face value give me proof that god does not exist. You can't or you would be on the face of the news. Just like how I can't prove that god does exist.

I'll leave you with the saying my father told me once. "While I can't prove their is no god, what if their isn't? That would make life very sad." (Rough english translation, but you get the idea.) Also take the time and read the book, "The Stranger" it deals with this issue in a very unique way. Its written by Camus.

I'm not really going to despute your post KKF, but I would like to say that while you can look at things that way and say the world would be a sad place if there was proof that god didn't exist, I personally don't agree with that. I honestly don't think much would change in the world, people would just look for answers in a different place. I mean think about it...

Back in greek times why did the sun move across the sky? Because Helios (Apollo) pulled it across the sky with his chariot. Why didn't the earth fall down or apart or spin uncontrolably? Because Zeus punished a titan to hold the weight of the world for all time.

Seriously, think about where the beliefs of people will be in hundreds and thousands of years. I would find it sad to be looked back on and have them think... "Geeze, what were those people thinking?" People turn to religion when they can't explain something, eventually they find the explanation and realize it wasn't as simple as they thought it was. Don't get me wrong, I believe in a god mostly because like your father I would find it sad if I was the limit of the world? I am a flawed being, there should be something better than me. However, I look for answers, I don't attribute things to god just because I can't explain them.

Overkongen

10-18-2005, 07:07 AM

#17, religion is sometimes an annoying thing. Now, I'm no big city lawyer, but it seems to me that a lot of people are willing to do funny things because god says so. Like 9/11. I've also spoken with a muslim on a forum, who doesn't believe anymore. Now, you might say that he isn't a muslim if he doesn't believe, but it seems that Islam is a very creative religion when it comes to defectors.

Bottom line: Believers are free to live their life the way they want to, but I can't help but be unnerved by them. Once they decide that they need to make an active difference in my life, they become my enemies.

CNagy

10-18-2005, 07:47 AM

Woo hoo I love how everyone who happens to be an average person posting on a forum must obviously know all the complexities of the universe.

You sure fooled me into thinking this god person doesn't exist. MAN! What was I thinking when the answer was right in front of me this whole time on a forum!
[/sarcasm]

Inhale. Hold. Exhale. It doesn't take a grasp of all the complexities of the universe to realize that when it comes to God and religion, proof will be accepted by those who already believe what the proof supports, and proof will be dismissed by those who already dismiss what the proof supports. You'll have people on the fence, of course, but those people are worthless and lack strength in their own convictions-- be those convictions in support of God or against.

Its all a matter of how you look at the bible though. You can look at it as a book that is not fallable or one that is and was written a certain way for the audience of that time.

So I ask you without taking things in the bible at face value give me proof that god does not exist. You can't or you would be on the face of the news. Just like how I can't prove that god does exist.
It's not a matter of perspective. It's a matter of what you place the most importance in. If you place your importance on facts, then an undeniable fact that God does not exist would cause you to be Atheist, but if you place your importance on facts, you're already an Atheist whether you declare it or not.

If you place your importance on faith, then you can freely dismiss anything that would point to the non-existence of God, because faith is a belief held despite any reason or factual evidence to the contrary. Thus there is no undeniable proof of the non-existence of God, because there is no proof that the faithful would not deny.

Jon885

10-18-2005, 07:53 AM

Well I do want to know the ultimate truth...

but if i did find out there was no god then i would be very sad because then life would have no meanng for me.

CNagy

10-18-2005, 08:05 AM

What would you consider proof? And why would you accept it?

KKF

10-18-2005, 08:18 AM

It's not a matter of perspective. It's a matter of what you place the most importance in. If you place your importance on facts, then an undeniable fact that God does not exist would cause you to be Atheist, but if you place your importance on facts, you're already an Atheist whether you declare it or not.

If you place your importance on faith, then you can freely dismiss anything that would point to the non-existence of God, because faith is a belief held despite any reason or factual evidence to the contrary. Thus there is no undeniable proof of the non-existence of God, because there is no proof that the faithful would not deny.

What fact do you have that their is no god? I have yet to hear a single "fact" that god does not exist. Both sides have no "facts" thats why its called faith. Some people believe that jesus was the son of god. While others believe he was some nut. And some believe he plain didn't exist. Faith is not based on facts. After all the greatest adventure left to all of us is death because we have no idea what is afterwards.

KKF

10-18-2005, 08:19 AM

What would you consider proof? And why would you accept it?

You can't prove or disprove it. Unless you can bring people back from the dead.

KKF

10-18-2005, 08:24 AM

I'm not really going to despute your post KKF, but I would like to say that while you can look at things that way and say the world would be a sad place if there was proof that god didn't exist, I personally don't agree with that. I honestly don't think much would change in the world, people would just look for answers in a different place. I mean think about it...

Read the book "The Stranger" by Camus and you will understand what I'm trying to portray better. It explains the view of a true a moralist athiest. It shows a extreem but at the sametime shows why I believe the world would be a very sad place with out faith. But thats just my opinion.

Back in greek times why did the sun move across the sky? Because Helios (Apollo) pulled it across the sky with his chariot. Why didn't the earth fall down or apart or spin uncontrolably? Because Zeus punished a titan to hold the weight of the world for all time.

Seriously, think about where the beliefs of people will be in hundreds and thousands of years. I would find it sad to be looked back on and have them think... "Geeze, what were those people thinking?" People turn to religion when they can't explain something, eventually they find the explanation and realize it wasn't as simple as they thought it was. Don't get me wrong, I believe in a god mostly because like your father I would find it sad if I was the limit of the world? I am a flawed being, there should be something better than me. However, I look for answers, I don't attribute things to god just because I can't explain them.

Of course not, but you have to see what im trying to get at here. I have yet to state why I believe in god and I'll leave that out. Since after all thats a personal matter. But the bible was written to explain things in the best way they could. And if you take it in that context then you will always find fallacy's in the bible that just plain don't add up. That to me is inhertintly wrong and a false argument.

Another book you guys should consider reading is "The First Immortal." It deals with a possible future we might face. Intresting read.

Jon885

10-18-2005, 08:31 AM

What would you consider proof? And why would you accept it?

If a discovery was made that nothingness can come from nothingness so I would understand that everything that brought about humanity came from nothing. But I probably wouldn't understand any of the proof because this is all beyond my understanding. (so is evolution)

NERD

10-18-2005, 08:33 AM

This thread became sad and boring. Only by page two too.

CNagy

10-18-2005, 08:43 AM

What fact do you have that their is no god? I have yet to hear a single "fact" that god does not exist. Both sides have no "facts" thats why its called faith. Some people believe that jesus was the son of god. While others believe he was some nut. And some believe he plain didn't exist. Faith is not based on facts. After all the greatest adventure left to all of us is death because we have no idea what is afterwards.

Stop. Reread. Try a little comprehension. Where do I claim to have the facts that there is no God? I don't. Where do I say that such facts exist? I don't. What do I say about when one side tries to put something forward as a fact? I say that the other side denies it based on faith or reason, depending on who is putting forward the supposed fact. Faith is not based on facts. Congratulations, I've made that point several times in this thread.

You can't prove or disprove it. Unless you can bring people back from the dead.
This question was not meant for you. This question was meant for the one person so far who said that they could be convinced that God does not exist if the proper facts where discovered. Seriously, try a little reading comprehension sometime.

Mittens

10-18-2005, 09:29 AM

Is religion such an annoying thing to everyone that we constantly have to bicker about what exsist or doesn't?

Well.. You've had plenty of wars fought over religion... sooo.. I spose it is pretty annoying =D

Ichisan

10-18-2005, 10:00 AM

Right remains right and wrong remains wrong, the human spirit remains an enigma and the experience of life ineffable whether or not God exists. So none of the options appeal to me. It's only religious people who fantasize about how they could live without restraint in an atheistic world.

Of course, you can't categorically prove that any supposed entity does not exist, only estimate its probability of existence based on current knowledge. But one can hope God exists if only because to conceive a being greater than ourselves gives us hope for some answers.

Jai

10-18-2005, 11:37 AM

more cheerios

10-18-2005, 01:05 PM

People who are anti-god tend to use Freud as their proof and I tend to laugh a lot at them. :)

Idlethought

10-18-2005, 01:09 PM

You want absolute proof there is no god?

Look at the multitude of religions and what their true purpose is. Blind faith in leadership. Religion is a tool of control and power, nothing more, nothing less.

I wouldnt consider believing in anyones god or gods even without evolution.

Just because religion is a tool of control and power doesnt mean that god doesnt exist. it just means that everyone has an agenda and some would use people's faith and beliefs to achieve said agenda

KKF

10-18-2005, 04:23 PM

Stop. Reread. Try a little comprehension. Where do I claim to have the facts that there is no God? I don't. Where do I say that such facts exist? I don't. What do I say about when one side tries to put something forward as a fact? I say that the other side denies it based on faith or reason, depending on who is putting forward the supposed fact. Faith is not based on facts. Congratulations, I've made that point several times in this thread.

Stop try a little comprehension. Where do I say you have such facts? But you do say that if you believe in the "importance of facts" that you are a Atheist whether you declare it or not. And thats my point. I put my importance on facts just like any Atheist but that does not make me a Atheist. Since obviously we don't have facts that prove either or. You are basically stating that people who are not Atheist are illogical as a whole and don't like to believe in reality. And I disagree.

This question was not meant for you. This question was meant for the one person so far who said that they could be convinced that God does not exist if the proper facts where discovered. Seriously, try a little reading comprehension sometime.

Didn't know I couldn't answer a question. Damn should of read that Faq about this because I sure missed it. Not only can I not reply to what you write but I can't even show how their is no answer that can be given to disprove that their is a god. Great good to know. I really should have tried understanding what I'm allowed to respond to on a open forum.

CNagy

10-18-2005, 05:20 PM

Stop try a little comprehension. Where do I say you have such facts? But you do say that if you believe in the "importance of facts" that you are a Atheist whether you declare it or not. And thats my point. I put my importance on facts just like any Atheist but that does not make me a Atheist. Since obviously we don't have facts that prove either or. You are basically stating that people who are not Atheist are illogical as a whole and don't like to believe in reality. And I disagree.
Thanks for taking my words and stretching them into a hyperbole. Let me quote the statement that you are using for your argument.
It's a matter of what you place the most importance in.
Oh my, that word "most" is there. What do you place the most importance in, facts or faith? If you place more importance in facts, then you choose the world of the known over the world of the unknown. That rather makes you an Atheist in fact, even if you do not call yourself one. If you place more importance in faith, then facts contrary to your faith can be safely ignored. Nowhere does that say that you don't appreciate facts, nor that you don't like to believe in reality (which, by the way, is simply the word given to how one interprets the world*.) Those would be the words that you are trying to put in my mouth, and I don't appreciate it very much.

Didn't know I couldn't answer a question. Damn should of read that Faq about this because I sure missed it. Not only can I not reply to what you write but I can't even show how their is no answer that can be given to disprove that their is a god. Great good to know. I really should have tried understanding what I'm allowed to respond to on a open forum.
You have nothing to add to the question. Again, I didn't say you couldn't answer it, I said that it was not directed at you. And if you read down, the person it was directed at answered. He obviously has an answer about what would disprove God to him. Are you aware of the Socratic method? Me asking a question doesn't necessarily mean that I have the answer, but by trying to answer the question you end up coming to your own understanding of the nature of the problem.

Now, if you will stop warping my words into something unrecognizable and trying to pass it off as what I was saying, I'd appreciate that.

*reality

n 1: all of your experiences that determine how things appear to you

Jynx_lucky_j

10-18-2005, 05:41 PM

Just as in the other thread of the exact opposite question, im afraid that people arent exactly grasping the concept of the question. The question isn't weather you belive in god or not. Its not weather you belive there is undeniable proof weather god exists or not (and there is no undeniable proof either way or there wouldnt be people still denying). and the question is not what kinda of proof would you need.

The "real" question is what would you do presented with undeniable proof that there is no god of any kind? Me i'd live my life as i always did. I would no longer worship. But i would keep my christain ideals and values. I think that they are simply good rules to live by.

This question is really aimed at the one that do belive that those that don't as you can see by the follow on question. "What would you consider proof? And why would you accept it?" Obviously people who don't belive already have you own proof and accept it. But for the belivers, we can't really say what that proof would be as it's nothing that exists right now. Maybe sometime in the future someone will create a machine that can detect god or something. Who knows.

And for the people that say they would laugh at all the christians...well first i'd like to ask why is it always christians? You know Jews believe in the same god we do, just with out jesus. Nobody laughs at the hindu. That seems to me that you just have something personal against the christian religion as a whole. Bringing up things like bombing abortion clinic to support their religion is evil arguments, you know the vast majority of christian don't bomb anything. And you really think religion is the only reason people do bad things? There are are more wars that are not over religion than those that are. If they didn't have religion to use they will just find some other justification to do what they want. So the argument that religion is the cause of all these things is moot.

Jai

10-18-2005, 05:45 PM

Id post on religeous forums. 4 word posts.

I TOLD YOU SO

DarkFire168

10-18-2005, 05:52 PM

Whoa, there's a mode other than stab-kill?

Jynx_lucky_j

10-18-2005, 06:45 PM

its always fun when other post are written while you writing yours... :rolleyes:

You don't have to choose between facts and faith. Or maybe its just me? I've never ran into a fact that conflicts with my faith. Maybe it just depends on what exactly you belive. Their are alot of great scientific minds that held thier faith on an equal standing with facts.

But you could turn it around and say that the aethist is taking it in faith that there is no god. There is no fact saying there is no god. You can't prove at this time there is no god. You could argue that there is no god that follows the chistian doctrain. But you can prove that there is no god what so ever. There for you are taking it on faith that there isn't a god.

I'm willing to admit that god may or may not exit as we know him. Hell, i'll even admit that there might not be a god even though i belive there is, but anyone can be wrong. But you also have to admit that there could be a god, it might not be the god you have in you mind. but there could be a god of some form or another.

And being an atheist doesn't mean you preffer facts over faith. And atheist is some one that either does not belive in the existance of god(s) or has no belive regarding the existance of god(s). If you belive that there might be a god then youre agnostic. Facts don't enter the equation. Only belief, or faith

CNagy

10-18-2005, 06:50 PM

The absence of belief is not, itself, a belief. As I've stated before about the atheism vs religious/spiritual idea, the presented sides are two extremes. You can fall in between the extremes. Most people do. But to attempt to argue the variations throughout the entire spectrum is impossible, thus extremes are useful examples.

Jynx_lucky_j

10-18-2005, 07:04 PM

more cheerios

10-18-2005, 07:10 PM

Atheism is flawed in the fact that to believe there is no God, you must first acknowledge God.

eyez0nme

10-18-2005, 07:24 PM

i am laughing my ass off.

Idlethought

10-18-2005, 07:37 PM

the way i see it there is no way to have absolute proof that there is no God, because to know that youd have to have complete understanding of all there is to know

Balain

10-18-2005, 08:04 PM

... So the argument that religion is the cause of all these things is mute.

OKay this so off topic and it's a pet peeve of mine so no offense Jynx. it's "moot" Not "mute"

Anyways...People have missed the point of these questions. I think the questions are kind of bad questions though. You can't really honestly say what you would do in those situations. You may think you know, but you can't be sure.

Anyways like it's been said. It doesn't matter how much proof you have. A belief in God is not about facts but about faith.

Does anyone know about C.S. Lewis You know the guy that wrote the Narnia serious. He was very much an athetiest. He wrote books and essays on why religons are wrong and there is no God. Well after years of this he became Christian. I wish I could remember his quote about it.

CNagy

10-18-2005, 08:17 PM

there is no such thing as absence of belief though. I belief that gravity will hold be down. I belief the sun will come up tomarrow (though sometime i wish it wouldn't :P ), I belive that there is a god, i belive that killing and raping are wrong. I belive that any confrontation is met with resistance regardless of wether one agrees or understands your position. These are some of my beliefs.

You belive there is not god. That is your belief. You could say that that the absence of religion is not a religion and i would agree with you. But everyone belives something.

First and foremost, you don't know what my beliefs are. I haven't stated them here. Secondly, there is such a thing as an absence of belief. It can't be universal, you can't manage to hold absolutely no beliefs-- but you can pretty much state that you couldn't care less about a certain subject and thus have no beliefs in it one way or another. "Chris, do you believe that we should protect the gopher tortoise?" "No." "So you believe that we should allow their wholesale slaughter?" "No." "Well, what do you believe? Nothing in regards to gopher tortoises." Over-simplified? Yes. Illustrates a lack of beliefs in regards to a certain subject? Yes.

rush

10-18-2005, 09:44 PM

Atheism is flawed in the fact that to believe there is no God, you must first acknowledge God.

Thanks for the laugh.

Jynx_lucky_j

10-19-2005, 01:17 PM

OKay this so off topic and it's a pet peeve of mine so no offense Jynx. it's "moot" Not "mute" hehe sorry i new it was wrong, but for the life of me i couldn't think of the right spelling. Thanks for thank for pointing that out it's been corrected.

First and foremost, you don't know what my beliefs are. I haven't stated them here. Secondly, there is such a thing as an absence of belief. It can't be universal, you can't manage to hold absolutely no beliefs-- but you can pretty much state that you couldn't care less about a certain subject and thus have no beliefs in it one way or another. "Chris, do you believe that we should protect the gopher tortoise?" "No." "So you believe that we should allow their wholesale slaughter?" "No." "Well, what do you believe? Nothing in regards to gopher tortoises." Over-simplified? Yes. Illustrates a lack of beliefs in regards to a certain subject? Yes. Sorry for the miss under standing i was stating what you belifs were it was just an example, i'll correct my wording (sorry it was busy at work yesterday and i was typing bits and peices inbetween jobs, so I'm afraid i wasn't at my best). Well anyways, i personally belive that claiming to have a lack of beliefs in any matter is really a way to avoid the issue. It's often used to avoid discussions you don't really care for. Saying that you are unsure of your beliefs in a subjuect or have mixed feelings would be more accurate. Or even saying that you don't have enough information to form a solid belief. But even choosing not to care would be a form of a belief. Anyways like i said thats how i feel about it. You may or may not feel differantly, and thats competely your choice. Just as its each of our choices to decide wether or not we belive in god. And i also belive that it's not anyones place to try and change someone elses beliefs. If someone asks about my beliefs i'll share them, if someone attacks my beliefs i'll defend them. But i'll never try to make someone belive the way i do.

But regardless the absence of a belief one way or the other tward the existance of god, by either your defenition or mine, is not athiest. Its agnostic. Athieism is the beleif or doctrine that no god(s) exists. Angnostic has no solid belief one way or the other.

Balain

10-19-2005, 01:38 PM

Ahhhh I don't think that second quote was actually from me LOL

Oh fixed that too :)

CNagy

10-19-2005, 03:43 PM

Sorry for the miss under standing i was stating what you belifs were it was just an example, i'll correct my wording (sorry it was busy at work yesterday and i was typing bits and peices inbetween jobs, so I'm afraid i wasn't at my best). Well anyways, i personally belive that claiming to have a lack of beliefs in any matter is really a way to avoid the issue. It's often used to avoid discussions you don't really care for. Saying that you are unsure of your beliefs in a subjuect or have mixed feelings would be more accurate. Or even saying that you don't have enough information to form a solid belief. But even choosing not to care would be a form of a belief. Anyways like i said thats how i feel about it. You may or may not feel differantly, and thats competely your choice. Just as its each of our choices to decide wether or not we belive in god. And i also belive that it's not anyones place to try and change someone elses beliefs. If someone asks about my beliefs i'll share them, if someone attacks my beliefs i'll defend them. But i'll never try to make someone belive the way i do.

But regardless the absence of a belief one way or the other tward the existance of god, by either your defenition or mine, is not athiest. Its agnostic. Athieism is the beleif or doctrine that no god(s) exists. Angnostic has no solid belief one way or the other.

Quite alright, on my beliefs. I just felt I should clear that up.

Claiming to have a lack of beliefs in regards to a situation is to have a lack of an opinion. People choose not to have opinions on things all the time. It is not necessary for everyone to jump into every discussion, and form opinions about everything. I don't have an opinion on abortion. Why? Because I am not a woman, and I am (unfortunately) not currently sexually active. The issue of abortion affects me in no way, shape, or form.

A person who has no beliefs in God is an atheist. Agnostics say that one can never know, there can never be proof that God does or doesn't exist. That is a belief. That is an opinion about the nature of God. Someone who does not even bother to form an opinion in regards to God, or abandons previously held beliefs and opinions (very few people I know were born atheist) is an atheist. God does not exist as far as they are concerned because He has no power over their actions. But they are pacifistic in their atheism.

There are those that I like to categorize as Militantly Atheist. Those are the ones that proclaim that God is dead, or God never was. These are atheists as well, even though they have formed enough of a belief in regards to God to proclaim that he doesn't exist. They are the most obvious atheist, because they wear their beliefs on their sleeve in regards to the non-existence of God. But this does not make them the only atheists in existence.

co_delphi

10-19-2005, 05:00 PM

The absolute proof there is no god is 80. To put more clearly, after drinking a fifth of absolute vodka (40% by volume/80 proof) and by the next morning there will be no god.

D-pad

10-19-2005, 07:44 PM

I'd cry and never stop until I figured out how to become immortal.

Jai

10-19-2005, 08:56 PM

Atheism is actually a godless religion in itself. To describe all of us that follow no god as athiests is a very incorrect statement to make.

KKF describes gravity as a belief. At what point would you consider fact to make a belief better described as knowlege? I know the principals gravity, I dont "believe" in it.

CNagy

10-19-2005, 10:00 PM

If you deny the existence of God (or Gods, for that matter) then you are an atheist, by definition, even if you choose to call yourself something else. I've yet to meet a spiritual atheist, but I'll concede that it can occur by definition and humbly change my diagram to the following:

Atheism------//-------Religion
....\__________________/
......\________________/
........\______________/
..........\____________/
...............Spiritual

Jai

10-19-2005, 10:31 PM

No really, Atheism is a godless religion. It is its own religion, much as Christianity, Hinduism, Islam are all seperate religions. To pidgeon hole people that think all religion is a crock of shit (theres alot of us) as atheist is grossly incorrect.

I have blind faith in nothing. I regard religion as an antiquated means of controlling the masses, a genius dictatorship tool perpetuated by its own victims (religion being passed from parents to children, said children being indoctrinated, brainwashed before being old enough to think for themselves and break the cycle). To say that I am atheist could hardly be further from reality.

Perhaps you could better describe me as a rationalist. I "believe" (for want of a better word) in the truth of what I can prove as real. I exist wholly outside of your diagram as it stands, although at the moment its probably better redrawn as -

No gods------//-------Many gods
....\__________________/
......\________________/
........\______________/
..........\____________/
...............Spiritual

Atheism itself is spiritual godlessness, and therefor would be at the bottom left of your diagram.

As a side note, I have an interesting theory on the modern prevalence of people brought up in religion abandoning their parents beliefs and joining the rationalist ranks. Historically, proliferation of religion has been based on restricting information and free thought, a form of mind control perpetuated by simply not allowing the consideration of alternative options. In a world where the internet makes proliferation of information impossible to control, religion is failing, dying a slow death as people begin to decide what is real for themselves, rather than continuing the blind faith cycle.

That said, religion will never die completely - there will always be those who want answers to the grander questions of existance, such as the meaning of life, and cannot find solace in the answers reality provides. These people will always invent an answer that they feel is more appropriate to the question - such as a mystical, all powerful "god" - to satisfy themselves.

Of course, who can say thats not a better way. Believing in heaven is probably a happier path than knowing that when you die, you become worm food and just rot away in a box 6 feet under. Sometimes I wish id been brought up in that blind faith environment :(

CNagy

10-19-2005, 11:03 PM

Atheism is not a religion. It's not a godless religion. Atheists don't have to be spiritual. Atheism is a term, and it is applied to those who deny the existence of God or Gods. Atheism has no rituals, no system of beliefs save for the belief that there is no greater power. If you fit that, you're an atheist. Sorry to pigeon-hole you, but that's what the term means. There is no church of Atheism.

a·the·ism Audio pronunciation of "atheism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-zm)
n.

1.
1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
2. Godlessness; immorality.
atheism

n 1: the doctrine or belief that there is no God [syn: godlessness] [ant: theism] 2: a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods

The belief that there is/are no God(s) is the only qualification for Atheism. If you meet that, you are in the club; whether you are spiritual or not.

As for the diagram, where things are in relation to one another does not have significance. It merely reads that the world is either religious or atheist and/or spiritual. There is no religious-atheist, the two are contradictory. Spiritualism can mingle with either, and I'm not sure if it can mingle with neither. Perhaps it can technically, but that'd be a difficult thing to describe.

co_delphi

10-20-2005, 12:51 AM

Atheism is not a religion. It's not a godless religion. Atheists don't have to be spiritual. Atheism is a term, and it is applied to those who deny the existence of God or Gods. Atheism has no rituals, no system of beliefs save for the belief that there is no greater power. If you fit that, you're an atheist. Sorry to pigeon-hole you, but that's what the term means. There is no church of Atheism.

Although I agree with you I must point out a technical error. By definition:

re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
3. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
4. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

If taken in the context of 3 of the definitions of the word religion, atheism would qualify as a religion. Your typical atheist tends to be rather feverent about it, will gladly tell you why they belive what they do and there are people who agree with them. Although this does not constitute a congregation as one would normally think, it is a place where they will discuss their beliefs and be satisfied in others holding such truths to be true. So by way of technicallity it could be considered a religion of sorts.

CNagy

10-20-2005, 01:25 AM

Yeah, it's not technically perfect, but we aren't able to differentiate between definitions and popular usage that has become an official definition over the years. Go back far enough, for example, and I doubt Definition 5 would still be around.

Definition 2 is referencing definition 1, as it uses the phrase "such belief and worship."

Definition 4 is a slight possibility, though I have yet to meet a spiritual atheist, I am sure that they could exist.

spir·i·tu·al·ism Audio pronunciation of "spiritualism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spr-ch--lzm)
n.
1.
1. The belief that the dead communicate with the living, as through a medium.
2. The practices or doctrines of those holding such a belief.
2. A philosophy, doctrine, or religion emphasizing the spiritual aspect of being.
spir·i·tu·al Audio pronunciation of "spiritual" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spr-ch-l)
adj.

1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. See Synonyms at immaterial.
2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
3. Of, from, or relating to God; deific.
4. Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
5. Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.
I'm just trying to point out here that the important terms in definition 4 are steering it away from atheism. Possible in theory? Yeah. In reality? Who knows.

Definition 5 would make a religion out of many, many things. Environmentalism would be a religion to Green Peace. Pro-life would be a religion to the Pro-lifer zealots, war would be a religion for army nuts, and so on. It kinda dilutes the meaning of religion.

co_delphi

10-20-2005, 01:54 AM

Definition 4 is a slight possibility, though I have yet to meet a spiritual atheist, I am sure that they could exist.

The closest to a spiritual athiest I can think of is one of the scientology nuts.

Definition 5 would make a religion out of many, many things. Environmentalism would be a religion to Green Peace. Pro-life would be a religion to the Pro-lifer zealots, war would be a religion for army nuts, and so on. It kinda dilutes the meaning of religion.

Yeah I didn't care for definition 5 either.

CNagy

10-20-2005, 02:08 AM

Damnit, you did find the exception. Scientology does fit the spiritual atheist mold.

Jai

10-20-2005, 06:36 AM

Funny you mention enviromentalism being a religion for greenies. For alot of green activists, it is exactly that - blind faith in an idea with no basis in fact, even more, an idea that flies in the face of documentable proof.

CNagy

10-20-2005, 09:03 AM

Actually, could you expand on that? I don't agree with the radical actions that the more extreme members of greenpeace take, but the organization supports its position with facts and studies pertaining to the change in climate across the world and damage or change to ecosystems.

Ardo Zubairu

10-20-2005, 10:30 AM

please read my debate with zakalwe at the old forum on issue of God or Allah.
Zakalwe,this is insincerity attitude
and lack of understanding and
inclination to follow your desire.

Let me explain
If you see a castle made of sand along the seashore,
You are certain that someone has made it.
Then why is doubtingGod designed human being?
Everything exist in the universe has evident design.
Moreover, this design apparent in every detail of created things is incomparably more perfect, superior and complex than that of a sand castle.
Therefore, the universe is created by superior creator,
That creator, create human being, the creator is Allah, the lord of the entire world.

Please,
Consider your body.
The very one you doubting to have been created by God.
The human body is a structure abounding with amazing wonders.
The perfect function of human brain is beyond comparison
To the computer you are using. The advance product of modern technology.

Therefore, each organ fulfils its specific task perfectly, and works in complete harmony with other organs. For example in order for you to take a single breath your mouth, nose, trachea, lungs, heart and blood vessels, must function simultaneously.
None of these ceases for a single instant or become exhausted. They are all obedient and submissive for their creator, and dutifully comply with what is ordained for them.

Air, purified and warmed as it passes through the nose, is then carried to the lungs through trachea. This oxygen will be used by our hearts and blood vessels, by every single cell in our bodies. The organs involved in this process skillfully carry out many processes without confusion, error or delay in anyway.

Zakalwe!
Should there be any flaw in this harmony, there would be neither respiration, nor life.
The same also holds true for the process of sight. The eyes is one the clearest signs of creation. Both human and animals eyes are remarkable examples of perfect design.
This is awesome organ provides quality vision still unmatched by twenty-first century technology

Zakalwe!
Never forget that an eye only functions with all its components intact. For instance,
If all components of the eye, such as cornea, conjunctiva, iris, pupil, retina, choroids, musles and the lachrymal glands were intact but missing only a single eyelid,the eye would become damaged and unable to see.

By the same token, merely the failure of tears production would cause the drying of the eye, and, ultimately, blindness. This fact raises a vital question: who created the eye and its ability to perceive from nothing? Mr Zakalwe. Certainly, it is not the possession of eye himself who decides to create his own eye. Because, it is indeed illogical to assume that a being, unaware of even the concept of “sight” could decide up its necessity and for the creation of an eye in its own body.

This being the case, the reality is that there is a being with superior wisdom, who created human being with faculties of sight, hearing, and so on. Some people like you who cannot measure God with his true measures claim that unconscious cells acquired sight and hearing, faculties that demand consciousness, by their own will and skill. However, it is clearly evident that it cannot possibly be so.

Avoid using imagination .for imagination destroy people.

Jay

10-20-2005, 10:41 AM

Let me explain
If you see a castle made of sand along the seashore,
You are certain that someone has made it.
Then why is doubtingGod designed human being?

Because all the evidence points toward evolution from lesser developed mammals into what we are today, but some ranting zealot decided that he had to spout a bunch of bullshit about walking on water or something, for reasons best known to himself?

(No offense to any believers out there, this is just my opinion. But, if you feel the need, flame away!)

I like how you turned this into a post directed toward Zakalwe as well. Nice work.

Urban~Ninja

10-20-2005, 11:40 AM

I would do nothing, because either way i win.

Jynx_lucky_j

10-20-2005, 07:08 PM

Arguments over fine defenition always bug me. We have a fluid language and deffenitions and usage change all the time. But what i would like to see some day is for people to say "We'll beleive what we want to belive, and you can belive what you want to belive. We won't try to change your beliefs, and you won't try to change our beliefs. If one is interested in other beliefs then they will discuss it in a civilised manner." Since i'm a chistian i'll use them as an example. The bible says to spread gods word, and the share the gosipel. It doesn't say to force it down their throats. You can't "save" someone that doesn't want to be saved. I'll be the first to admit that their are a lot of hypocritical christains out there. They profess belief, but they don't live it. Christians are supposed to be followers of Christ, they are supposed to live by his teachings. And he never taught us to hate others. He said that we should love one another, and when i look at many other chistains, im not feeling the love. I belive that many people who say they are christains are not really christains. They just say they are because thats what they were taught. If all christians actually lived according the Jesus' teachings i don't think we would have the reputaion that we do.

As for the evolution debate, evolution has a nuber of holes that can not be explained. But it does have some scientific evedance to back it up, thus it is a theory. It is the best scientific explaination for the deversity of life on the planet. However there is a better thread for discussing evolution right here http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=879 Where alot of the issues with the validity of evolution have already been discussed.

more cheerios

10-20-2005, 07:13 PM

Because all the evidence points toward evolution from lesser developed mammals into what we are today, but some ranting zealot decided that he had to spout a bunch of bullshit about walking on water or something, for reasons best known to himself?

(No offense to any believers out there, this is just my opinion. But, if you feel the need, flame away!)

I like how you turned this into a post directed toward Zakalwe as well. Nice work.
Don't turn this into a heated religious debate, it will go nowhere. :(
And by the way, if anything, someone else 'spouted a bunch of bullshit' that Jesus walked on water. Not him. He didn't write the Bible, his followers did. If you're going to make a heated attack on Christianity, you might want to know the basics first. And if you phrased that a certian way and I didn't understand it, sorry. :P

And the whole Darwin theory is nothing but a 'theory'. It's a theory, not a fact. In all truth, the human race has no idea where they came from. No matter how many scientific facts are spat out at humanity, there is never going to be conclusive evidence. Not in our lifetime, at least.

co_delphi

10-20-2005, 10:09 PM

the problem with proving the theory of human evolution is because of lack of fossils showing the clear evolution between ape to cro-magnun and from cro-magnun to our current evolution. The reason for the lack of fossils is mainly due to our ancestors being intelligent enough to stay out of tar pits, bogs , tree sap, and other things less intelligent seemed to like to get preserved in.The only reason we have the cro-magnun fossils is because they literally got caught with their pants down by a really nasty winter.

Monkey

10-20-2005, 11:00 PM

Please remember that there are no scientific facts as such.

There are only scientific theories that look most likely to be true at the moment.

Famous example is Newtonian Mechanics which was accepted as doctrine for hundreds of years until Relativistic mechanics came along. Then of course Quantum mechanics came soon after. All scientists ever do is accept the most probable theory that we have at the time (as it is kinda stupid to accept the theory with the least evidence to back it up, over the one with the most evidence).

That is the basis of my beliefs as well. I'm what you would call a weak atheist. Strong atheists believe that there is no god whatsoever. Agnostics believe that it's about 50/50 and you can't prove it either way. A weak atheist does not believe in a god but does not deny the possibility (in my case it's a less than 1% possibility).

I can't understand why people would choose the option with the least evidence to back it up. It almost fits my definition of insanity. I wouldn't go so far as to call all religious people insane, but I would say that the extreme ones who deny all possibility of the non-existence of god are insane.

co_delphi

10-20-2005, 11:14 PM

One of my favorite comparrisons to use on people trying to convert me was that if I was to suddenly use J.R.R Tolkiens Similacrium as a bible and say that all the events that happened in it actually happened I'd probably get lock in a insane asylum. Yet people who do the same with the bible (which by all rational means is just a really nice story) they are considered completely sane and respected. Nothing like the power of group concensus to determine sanity.

Thespis

10-20-2005, 11:56 PM

I'd be amused by the debate regardless, as I always am. It never ceases to amaze me how many people take macro-Evolution as a fact of science. To believe a cosmic explosion with no driving creative force behind it caused the kickstart to organized life as we know it is beyond fantastic. Absolutely nothing remotely believable in macro-Evolution really contradicts the existence of God.

Perhaps, as some say, God "ignited" things and let nature take its course from there. Possible, but also a bit of a stretch. Regardless, it takes faith to believe either extreme or anything in the middle. Faith is not blind belief in the face of contradictory evidence. "Faith is the belief in things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen." You can't "see" the wind, but you can see the effects of its existence. We can't "see" God, but there is an awful lot of "evidence" for His existence. Make your own choices based on your own experience. People will make up their own minds regardless of what "arguments" there are.

Darkblade

10-21-2005, 08:47 AM

Thou shalt not kill

more murders have been carried out in the name of god than for any other reason.
I find it amusing that most who so frivolently follow his orders directly disobey them.

If you want to believe in god, do that.
If you dont want to believe in god, do that.
As long as you dont try to force your beliefs on me, we will have a good mutual understanding of each other.

Jynx_lucky_j

10-21-2005, 03:23 PM

That is pretty much what i said in my last post, anyone can claim to be a christian. But if they turn against their teaching then they aren't really christians. Just because you belive in god and jesus doesn't make you a christian. Even the devil belives in god and jesus. Even Jesus went around calling such people hypocrites.

Also as i've said before. You don't have to choose between science and religion. I belive that the world is millions of year old, and i belive that god created the universe. Even if the big bang therory is correct and that the entire universe was once a point of mass that exploded to create our univers that still doesn't expalin where that point of mass came from or what existed with it. Something can't come from nothing. That is also a sceintific fact. I belive that god created life, and i also belive in some form of evolution (not nessasarily how it is described right now, but i do belive in some form). People say that i can't belive both, but i ask them how do you think the creation in Genesis was writen? Do you think that here just happened to be some guy writing this down before he was even created? It was presented to Moses by god as a dream or a vision. And oft times visions and dreams don't spell out things exactly as they happen. They tend to use alot of symbology, and what exacty everything sybolises is open to interpetation.

skate_mate

10-21-2005, 11:14 PM

[more murders have been carried out in the name of god than for any other reason.
I find it amusing that most who so frivolently follow his orders directly disobey them
Fair enough point, but I'd rather you give precise examples ^_~.

Also as i've said before. You don't have to choose between science and religion.
I agree.

belive that the world is millions of year old, and i belive that god created the universe. ... But if they turn against their teaching then they aren't really christians.
What is your basis for belief in the millions of years?

Do you think that here just happened to be some guy writing this down before he was even created? It was presented to Moses by god as a dream or a vision. And oft times visions and dreams don't spell out things exactly as they happen. They tend to use alot of symbology, and what exacty everything sybolises is open to interpetation.

There are plenty of reasons (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/compromise.asp) to take the Genesis account literally. In fact, there is actually no exogetical evidence (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/creation-matters.asp) that it should be read otherwise, especially considering the fact that there is so much (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/young.asp) evidence for a young earth anyway. Nevertheless, I'll be the first to admit that you don't need to embrace Genesis to be saved, however it is actuallyfundemental (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/creation-matters.asp) to Christianity.