nihongo wa jouzu desu ne

[umeboshidame]

So it's pretty much guaranteed that anyone who has ever been to Japan and tried to speak the language has heard this cursed phrase at least, oh, about 800 times. My question is mainly for Az, since it seems that your quite better at Japanese than I am (it was tough but I've learned to accept this); do you ever pass, like, a certain threshold where your good enough at Japanese that people feel they don't need to tell you this? I've always felt that it was kinda an insult hidden within the codes of tatamae, especially when I know I'm speaking like shit yet still get "complimented". No matter how much I show them that I can read, write, and speak, I still get heaps of hollow praise like a baby taking his first steps. And when I manage to say something complicated, it's like the whole room wants to pat me on the back, like they figure my four years of study in this language was nothing more than a few simple words and greetings. Of course I've only been here for about a month and a half, which is just enough time to let it really get on my nerves. Anyways, I'm sure this subject has been beaten to death already, but I was just wondering if anyone thinks it's possible to get good enough in Japanese to make these ign'ant country folk out here actually believe a foreigner can speak their language fluently?

[Chinpokomon]

Me after 1 year of Japanese:

Me: Hajimemashite
Conversation Partner: Nihongo ga umai desu ne
Me: Nan desu ka?
Conversation Partner: Nihongo ga jouzu desu ne
Me: Gomennasai. Wakarimasen.
Conversation Partner: You're really good at Japanese
Me: Uhh, thanks.

As to getting complimented all the time, I know what you mean, but I wouldn't let it get to you. Just take it as the compliment that it's meant to be. For every person like you who has spent years learning the language, there's 5 tourists to Japan that don't speak a word of it. I'm sure they're happy that you're speaking their language, and are just trying to encourage you.

PS. It's "Nihongo ga jouzu desu ne" ;)

[Pierrot le Fou]

I speak comparably to Az, and I still get it on occasion. I've just learned to shrug it off. There are ignorant folk in every country. So some ignorant pissant doesn't think that foreigners can have the slightest concept of Japanese. Ah well. No skin off my back. Just don't take it as a serious comment, because it isn't most of the time (while it actually is sometimes nowadays).

[Henjin]

Whatever you do, don't accidently say 'arigatou' after that. lol Big laughs there. :p

[Dana]

I get it at odd times. My Japanese is relatively good, not awesome but I can defintely carry on a conversation quite easily. So I can sit there and talk to someone for a solid half hour without remark, but then I might say something completely common (like arigatou gozaimasu) and I get the "nihongo jouzu!" Maybe they are complimenting the pronunciation in a case like this, I dunno...

::shrug::

[captain murph]

So how are you supposed to politely deny the compliment?

[Invictus]

"Iie." Quite simple.

[Pierrot le Fou]

It's usually intonation that gets you a honne comment. If you come in with the right exclamation, with the right timing, and Japanese intonation, you may get real compliments.

The correct way to decline the compliment would be, 'いいえ、いいえ、まだまだです。' or somesuch (iie, iie, mada mada desu). It means 'no, no, I'm still learning.'

[Scott]

You could also say something like "iie, tondemonai." with a vertical wave of the hand.

Clarification: Hand is vertical, waving direction is horizontal. My friend just mentioned that it looks like you're waving away a bad smell or a fly, but not that pronounced.

[koku]

can't mada mada desu just imply not yet/my japanese isn't good yet?

or does it really imply learning?? I always wondered if mada desu was being cocky (saying, "oh not now, but I'll be perfect later!").

[Scott]

It just means "No, not yet."

[Bissrok]

is it rude to just say "ie, ie"?

[Invictus]

As far as I know, saying "iie, iie" is not an impolite way to decline a comment, particularly if you're male.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I'm pretty sure 'iie, tondemonai' is more like 'no problem' and should be used to politely respond to thanks for help you've given.

For instance, 'Thank you for letting me use your computer!' -> 'No problem.'

[Scott]

No, 'tondemonai' is more of a 'heavens no' kind of comment. So something like 'no, no way' is probably a better translation.

To ground it in the real world, I've told Japanese people that they're good with English, and they respond with 'iie, iie, tondemonai'.

[Moccona]

Pierrot is right.

I've never heard a Japanese person reply 'iie, iie, tondemonai' when complimenting their English (or whatever).

Also, I hardly ever hear something negated with 'iie, iie' in the way English speakers say 'no, no'. It is usually only said once.

[Scott]

Well, there's really no way to counterargue that since it's something I've experienced and you haven't, and that's just a statement of fact.

I guess the only corollary I could add is that it may also depend on the age of the speaker. Older people are more likely to say tondemonai from what I've experienced.

[Jess]

Also, I hardly ever hear something negated with 'iie, iie' in the way English speakers say 'no, no'. It is usually only said once.

Really? It could be regional, since I lived in Kagawa and Sanuki-ben comes through strong, but I heard "ieie" all the time - a polite way to respond to a compliment humbly. I often used it in response to the "Nihongo ga jouzu" compliments I got, in a soft tone with a smile. I never got any weird reactions to it, though I have been told on multiple occasions in Japanese that I was "like a man", so it may have masculine overtones that I missed. :)

[hanacker]

Why wouldn't people tell you that you speak good Japanese if you speak good Japanese? If I meet someone from a foreign country who speaks good English, sometimes I tell them so. Is that rude? If the person is sincere, how is that anything other than a compliment? I didn't like the fake compliments about my Japanese skills, but the sincere ones were nice.

[atomiton]

PS. It's "Nihongo ga jouzu desu ne" ;)

Oohhhhh!!! and I thought it was Japanese that has skills.

[Varia]

Yeah, your mom was pretty jouzu desu ne
________
VAPORIZORS (http://vaporizer.org/)

[Frankey-eh]

hmm... wait, what's the problem with "nihonga ga jyouzu desu ne" comment? I mean, if someone said my French was really good, I'll be happy... I don't see the problem in complimenting people this way... :confused:

[Ketay]

hmm... wait, what's the problem with "nihonga ga jyouzu desu ne" comment? I mean, if someone said my French was really good, I'll be happy... I don't see the problem in complimenting people this way... :confused:

They don't really say it because you are good at Japanese... It's more of them trying to be nice and complimenting you no matter how sucky your Japanese is (I mean, especially since you'll say a phrase or two and they happen you know you're good at Japanese? xD I'm really good at Korean and Chinese then too! ^_^)

[Chinpokomon]

I guess in the US, people aren't so free with compliments, so it can come off as fake (especially if you know your Japanese is bad)

If your English sucks, I'm not going to say it sucks, but I'm probably not going to compliment it either.

In Japan, if your Japanese sucks, you will still most likely get complimented, because after all, you are better at Japanese than 95% of the people in the world.

[Scott]

hmm... wait, what's the problem with "nihonga ga jyouzu desu ne" comment? I mean, if someone said my French was really good, I'll be happy... I don't see the problem in complimenting people this way... :confused:

You don't use 'ga', you use 'wa'.

[Kyoushu]

Except not. >.>

[Frankey-eh]

I guess in the US, people aren't so free with compliments, so it can come off as fake (especially if you know your Japanese is bad)

If your English sucks, I'm not going to say it sucks, but I'm probably not going to compliment it either.

In Japan, if your Japanese sucks, you will still most likely get complimented, because after all, you are better at Japanese than 95% of the people in the world.

....oh, so it's an empty compliment? like, you only say so to be polite and doesn't really mean it? That makes sense. *nod nod*

scott: was that... sarcasm?

[TS-]

Random commment:

I've only heard Tondemonai used as "you're welcome," but in a "please, don't bother thanking me" sort of way. IIRC I looked it up in an online dictionary (http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/dict), and it lterally means "how dare you," or something like that.

Modesty sort of thing...if someone thanks you, you, of course, have to say that it was no problem.

[Scott]

I guess I do need to use faces. >.>

[Frankey-eh]

Random commment:

I've only heard Tondemonai used as "you're welcome," but in a "please, don't bother thanking me" sort of way. IIRC I looked it up in an online dictionary (http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/dict), and it lterally means "how dare you," or something like that.

Modesty sort of thing...if someone thanks you, you, of course, have to say that it was no problem.

doesn't tondemonai literally come from 飛んでも無い? Like, something is so absurd you won't find it even if you fly, similar to the English saying "I can't find it even if I stand up-side down on my head"....?

[Scott]

Yeah... the best translation I've found in terms of strength and meaning is 'heavens no'.

[EIJI]

【とんでもない！】 means a lot. It all depends on situation and way of speaking..
EIJIROU/Internet DIC. (http://www2.alc.co.jp/ejr/index.php?word_in=%82%C6%82%F1%82%C5%82%E0%82%C8%8 2%A2&word_in2=%82%A9%82%AB%82%AD%82%AF%82%B1&word_in3=PVawEWi72JXCKoa0Je)

[koku]

It just means "No, not yet."


yeah that's why I got confused when Pierro put learn in the translation.

It could imply that, but not neccesarily.

Anywho, for people who do make the comments, do you now question how the other person feels when you do?

Example: today I was talking with a Japanese foreign exchange student. Her english wasn't perfect. It contain some of the common Japanese to english pronuncation mistakes, but It was still pretty good and controlled, but I chose not to say "wow your english is good" to her.

Why?

Even it was sincere, I'd think the person might think I'm coming across as cheap and just saying it. Also, when in a foreign country and speaking that language, I'm sure you hear the comment all the time (like some people here In Japan complain about), so I'm pretty sure wether it's honest or not, you just might get sick of hearing it alltogether.

Do you guys ever tell japanese people they're 'jouzu' at english? I think the person knows if they're good or not. There's no need to risk their impression of you by making a comment that they either get annoyed at hearing, or might interpret as fake.

[Frankey-eh]

yeah that's why I got confused when Pierro put learn in the translation.

It could imply that, but not neccesarily.

Anywho, for people who do make the comments, do you now question how the other person feels when you do?

Example: today I was talking with a Japanese foreign exchange student. Her english wasn't perfect. It contain some of the common Japanese to english pronuncation mistakes, but It was still pretty good and controlled, but I chose not to say "wow your english is good" to her.

Why?

Even it was sincere, I'd think the person might think I'm coming across as cheap and just saying it. Also, when in a foreign country and speaking that language, I'm sure you hear the comment all the time (like some people here In Japan complain about), so I'm pretty sure wether it's honest or not, you just might get sick of hearing it alltogether.

Do you guys ever tell japanese people they're 'jouzu' at english? I think the person knows if they're good or not. There's no need to risk their impression of you by making a comment that they either get annoyed at hearing, or might interpret as fake.

I disagree. Going back to my french example... I'm not a native French speaker. I'm not a native Western-language speaker. How do I know if I'm good or bad? I always have a feeling I have this terrible Asian accent on my French, just like how English-speakers have a terrible Japanese accent that they aren't aware of. If someone says my French is really good, it'll boost my self-confidence.

Yes, I won't mind if people say that to me. And I don't hesitate to give out compliments like this if I truly mean it.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I am constantly telling people when they say something well in English here. My bartender doesn't speak good English, but his pronunciation is really good when he tries, so I compliment him on that. And it's a good thing, because it is positive reinforcement. I tell my kids when they get it right, because they are doing a good job. I tell people who speak English to me and do it well that their English is good. I tell my homeroom teachers that do well at English that their English is good.

There's nothing wrong with that.

And I've never heard 'tondemonai' in any context except in response to someone thanking them. I've never heard it in the context of a compliment.

[koku]

I am constantly telling people when they say something well in English here. My bartender doesn't speak good English, but his pronunciation is really good when he tries, so I compliment him on that. And it's a good thing, because it is positive reinforcement. I tell my kids when they get it right, because they are doing a good job. I tell people who speak English to me and do it well that their English is good. I tell my homeroom teachers that do well at English that their English is good.

There's nothing wrong with that.

And I've never heard 'tondemonai' in any context except in response to someone thanking them. I've never heard it in the context of a compliment.

Now do YOU feel insulted when someone says "nihongo ga jouzu desu ne" to you? Do you question if they're just cradling you vs. really meaning it?

Wouldn't you rather not here it or what?

[Scott]

And I've never heard 'tondemonai' in any context except in response to someone thanking them. I've never heard it in the context of a compliment.

I didn't say it was a compliment... I said it was a response to 'nihongo wa jouzu desu nee'.

[Faumdano]

rika, by english speakers having a terrible accent in japanese do you mean that alot of speakers don't take the time to learn how to properly say, for instance,

ら・り・る・れ・ろ
ふ
つ
XっX
(き・し・ち...）ゃ・ゅ・ょ (most notable, りゃ・りゅ・りょ)

Or, are you talking about having the correct tone?

[Frankey-eh]

Now do YOU feel insulted when someone says "nihongo ga jouzu desu ne" to you? Do you question if they're just cradling you vs. really meaning it?

Wouldn't you rather not here it or what?

You are too pessimistic. Just accept the compliment as it is.

In my Japanese class, there is a Chinese and a white student. The Chinese girl doesn't have too bad of an accent, but the white girl's is...painful sometimes. I try really hard to correct hers. So then, once in a while it sounds PERFECT. And when that happens, I don't hesitate to compliment her. I sure hope she doesn't think like you do...>.>

Maybe the difference between your interpretation and mine is the fact that I compliment AND criticize. Maybe for you, people has just been complimenting and no criticism. In that case, then yeah, maybe you've got some unsupportive friends. Maybe they just got tired of you speaking without improvement, so by saying this, they can shut you up for good.

[Frankey-eh]

rika, by english speakers having a terrible accent in japanese do you mean that alot of speakers don't take the time to learn how to properly say, for instance,

ら・り・る・れ・ろ
ふ
つ
XっX
(き・し・ち...）ゃ・ゅ・ょ (most notable, りゃ・りゅ・りょ)

Or, are you talking about having the correct tone?

Like putting accents on the wrong syllable. A typical westerner pronouncing Japanese words... inuYAsha... kaGOme... etc.

Also, you know, sometimes you feel like they're read romaji rather than hiragana? in さしすせそ I hear 'sh-' rather than 's-' a lot. I think it's a mistake that results from teaching them romaji BEFORE hiragana. I learned hiragana in first grade, and I didn't start romaji until fourth grade!

[Faumdano]

:eek: You mean you run into people that say sha shi shu she sho for さしすせす? Wow, just wow. I mean even し isn't *quite* the same as the word she in english.

[h2orowe]

Ok.... quick question regarding the language...


When you read something... are you supposed to say it like... each character/romaji piece the same speed or no.... cuz like Rika said sometime they say inuYAsha... or kaGOme.... I'm always like KO NIchiwa.... and I think I do it wrong... sometimes I can hear it well in my head and say it well, but than I don't know and just go back to saying it the wrong way...

[koku]

You are too pessimistic. Just accept the compliment as it is.

In my Japanese class, there is a Chinese and a white student. The Chinese girl doesn't have too bad of an accent, but the white girl's is...painful sometimes. I try really hard to correct hers. So then, once in a while it sounds PERFECT. And when that happens, I don't hesitate to compliment her. I sure hope she doesn't think like you do...>.>

Maybe the difference between your interpretation and mine is the fact that I compliment AND criticize. Maybe for you, people has just been complimenting and no criticism. In that case, then yeah, maybe you've got some unsupportive friends. Maybe they just got tired of you speaking without improvement, so by saying this, they can shut you up for good.

lol I never said it happened to me, but I see so many people complain about it I wouldn't want to put someone else in that situation.

I'm not pessemistic, I'm just going through an extra step of thought so If I dealth with someone who might think so, I won't offend them.


Truth of the matter is, some people think you're babying them, or really don't mean it when you say this. Also, say a person really is good, don't you think they'd get tired of hearing it with 1 out of every 3 new people they meet?

Just trying to think ahead, that's all.


H20r0we: there's intonation just like their is with any other language. You'll just have to learn and practice the right way :). Luckily, like with most langauges, it follows a pattern and if you're around it long enough you can sort of guess what sounds right. Use the wonderful recourses of the internet and find some everyday Japanese speech media, and just let it soak in. :)

[Pierrot le Fou]

And alternatively, by learning Hiragana first, you are making it far more difficult to understand that it's BLACK not ブラック and whatnot. Which is far more frustrating to me.

Foreigners don't know how to use the right intonation on words a lot of the time. It's pretty important in Japanese. In English, while there are accepted intonations for a lot of words, they can be changed to imply a different nuance.

I like sex. (factual statement)
I like sex. (I don't dislike sex -- I like it)
I like sex. (Not talking about my girlfriend -- I like it)
I like sex. (Not talking about castration -- I like sex)

In Japanese, however, words have accepted intonations which differ by area. In Kanto, for instance, it's aRIgato, in Kansai it's more arigaTO, with the emphasis on different syallables. Not to be offensive to Az, but this is the part of his speaking that he could really improve on. He knows more vocab and grammar than me, and gets his point across, but because of the lack of intonation (or more specifically he emphasizes words and syllables a lot like his English speaking) he doesn't sound as good.

[Faumdano]

Ok.... quick question regarding the language...


When you read something... are you supposed to say it like... each character/romaji piece the same speed or no.... cuz like Rika said sometime they say inuYAsha... or kaGOme.... I'm always like KO NIchiwa.... and I think I do it wrong... sometimes I can hear it well in my head and say it well, but than I don't know and just go back to saying it the wrong way...

Yes, each kana gets an equal duration, japanese is metranomic sort of. There is no stress like in english on 'syllables' (mora) in japanese, rather, your pitch rises and falls in certain places depending on the word.

[Invictus]

When you read something... are you supposed to say it like... each character/romaji piece the same speed or no.... cuz like Rika said sometime they say inuYAsha... or kaGOme.... I'm always like KO NIchiwa.... and I think I do it wrong... sometimes I can hear it well in my head and say it well, but than I don't know and just go back to saying it the wrong way...

99% of Americans have horribly accented Japanese. Mine is better than most because Spanish is my first language, but I can still hear the gaps painfully well. h2o, if you really want to hear how the Japanese speak, you should... well... listen to 'em carefully. You watch Bleach, right? Pay careful attention to how the characters pronounce their words.

[Scott]

Ok.... quick question regarding the language...


When you read something... are you supposed to say it like... each character/romaji piece the same speed or no.... cuz like Rika said sometime they say inuYAsha... or kaGOme.... I'm always like KO NIchiwa.... and I think I do it wrong... sometimes I can hear it well in my head and say it well, but than I don't know and just go back to saying it the wrong way...

When in doubt, pronounce each one the same - no accented syllables (mora).

Rule of thumb... the 'u' in 'su' and the 'h' in 'hi' are usually subdued. The 'f' in 'fu' is not the English 'f' - 'fu' sounds more like a tight 'hu' sound, with you blowing through sort of pursed lips. 'shi' is not 'she' in English, but more like a hissing 'si', with your tongue flat near the top of the mouth.

When there are double consonants in romaji, that means that there is a little 'tsu' in Japanese, which means that there is a slight pause. If you consider each mora to have a beat, 'nagoya' is three beats, and so is 'chotto'. 'chotto' having 'cho' + pause + 'to'. It's not super-exaggerated or anything.

Just a few rules of thumb.

[Frankey-eh]

:eek: You mean you run into people that say sha shi shu she sho for さしすせす? Wow, just wow. I mean even し isn't *quite* the same as the word she in english.

Yes, unbelievable right? I don't RUN into them either... they are EVERYWHERE. When I'm sitting in Japanese, I hear all these pronounciation mistakes all the time. And these kids have been studying Japanese for 3 years already!

[h2orowe]

All right, cool thanks for the help.
I always thought Shi was like a SH sound though
Like in tommorow Ashita (I think X3 been forever since I practiced Japanese. (Just when I was starting to learn some real language too! Kore wa Empitsu desu ka? ( I DONT EVEN KNOW IF THAT'S RIGHT ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!)

I'm starting to notice, like they say how you learn languages best 12 and under, that I'm not able to pick up the differences between sounds anymore, but if I focus I can....
I wish my district had a Japanese class. I'm thinking about talking to the principal for one.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Language at a young age (even if not the language you're studying now) has a huge impact on the ability to pick up languages later. The sooner you start, the further you can get.

[Frankey-eh]

All right, cool thanks for the help.
I always thought Shi was like a SH sound though
No. The strict romaji is si. like spanish, si.

I'm starting to notice, like they say how you learn languages best 12 and under, that I'm not able to pick up the differences between sounds anymore, but if I focus I can....
I know what you mean. I learned English at age 9, and I still notice myself having an Asian accent when I speak for a long periods of time. Or say a long word.

[h2orowe]

Asian accents (on girls) are cute. Asian accents on certain asian boys is cool. (Vietnamese male accent is .... hideous)

If I'm learning at age 15.... would I have a chance at becoming *NEAR* fluent?

And from now on, I'll use si instead of shi... but why is it written shi if it's a si?

[Chinpokomon]

99% of Americans have horribly accented Japanese.

Unfortunately, judging from people bragging on teh Internets, only 10% are aware of it :)

Not to say I'm any different.

I think my accent is pretty good.
Why do I think so?
Because my Japanese friends tell me so.
How do I know it's not just tatemae?
Because when I ask them, they tell me 'hontou ni'.
How do I know their 'hontou ni' statement is not tatemae?
uhhhh, I don't.

Because non-native speakers are always complimented on their Japanese, the line between "good" and just "thinks they are good" is blurred.

[Frankey-eh]

And from now on, I'll use si instead of shi... but why is it written shi if it's a si?

It was the Japanese's attempt to help American pronounce their names better. It wasn't meant to work backwords too.

[Faumdano]

Asian accents (on girls) are cute. Asian accents on certain asian boys is cool. (Vietnamese male accent is .... hideous)

If I'm learning at age 15.... would I have a chance at becoming *NEAR* fluent?

And from now on, I'll use si instead of shi... but why is it written shi if it's a si?

It's written shi because it is NOT the same as "see" in english; it it sounds like a light 'she'. The difference between japanese shi and english she is the position your tongue is when you make the sound. The japanese she your tongue is further forward than an english she.

[h2orowe]

Ugh! I'll just have Kokujin show me on skype! >.<; this is so damn confusing!
White people... or at least people who only know English.... cannot learn another language as easily as other people.
My friend Matt, he's white though, he speaks spanish (well is learning, he's pretty good and can hold a full convo, he's in Spanish 3 I think, but is advanced) He can speak Japanese (cept some of the little things) pretty well, since it's pronounciation for most of the things is like Spanish.


Edit: I'm jealous.

[Invictus]

And from now on, I'll use si instead of shi... but why is it written shi if it's a si?

Uh, don't listen to rika unless you can pronounce "si" like a native Spanish speaker. Trust me on this one. Spanish was my first language, I speak perfect English, and I'm studying Japanese. For the average gringo, "shi" is closest. Just like たちつてと--ta, ti, tu, te, to, if you want to be TECHNICAL, but for all practical and pronunciation purposes ta, chi, tsu, te, to. Also ぢ and じ--technically di and zi, but both sound a heck of a lot like ji to the average Westerner.

I, for one, am all for romanizing based on the sound of the kana in question.

EDIT: That'd be:

a i u e o
ka ki ku ke ko/ga gi gu ge go
ha hi fu he ho/ba bi bu be bo/pa pi pu pe po
sa shi su se so/za ji zu ze zo
ta chi tsu te to/da ji zu de do
ma mi mu me mo
na ni nu ne no
ra ri ru re ro
ya yu yo
wa wo n

[h2orowe]

I can tell the difference between Zi and Ji most of the time, yay!
If I listen to it close enough I can, but sometimes I just get lazy and speak gringo.
Sometimes, I can speak spanish in an ok accent, but most of the time I forget what I do and speak in a gringo accent.

This pisses me off so much, I have to take a language next year and the year after. I have no other choices between
Spanish.
Latin.
and French.
I hate French, I don't care for Latin, and Spanish I'm apathetic towards; I really want to learn Japanese, but there's nowhere near here that teaches it, and I need to take a language class for college.

[Invictus]

Given a choice between those three, take Spanish. The benefits for your Japanese pronunciation will be tremendous.

[Scott]

Uh, zi and ji are the same thing, different romaji systems. If there's a difference, you're imagining it.

Latin's useful. Good basic grammar there.

I think I have a fairly good grasp of speaking Japanese without much of an accent since people mistook me for being Japanese.

My professor is super fluent - she learned Japanese in college. Like they say - where there's a will, there's a way.

Edit: What everyone said about Spanish, if you're interested in taking Japanese after that, still. Spanish vowels are virtually identical.

Edit 2: There are two systems generally accepted - Hepburn and Jorden. Hepburn's system is what we all know and love... 'shounen', 'chikara', etc. Jorden is 'syoonen' and 'tikara'. Vowels are elongated by doubling them and romanization is strictly by table in Jorden's system - something that really messes with people when they try to spell things properly in kana (Example, 'ookii' versus 'kinou' versus 'sensei').

[Faumdano]

Don't many native speakers also pronouce ず・づ and じ・ぢ EXACTLY the same? That is, as the first kana in each pair.

[Ketay]

When in doubt, pronounce each one the same - no accented syllables (mora).

Rule of thumb... the 'u' in 'su' and the 'h' in 'hi' are usually subdued. The 'f' in 'fu' is not the English 'f' - 'fu' sounds more like a tight 'hu' sound, with you blowing through sort of pursed lips. 'shi' is not 'she' in English, but more like a hissing 'si', with your tongue flat near the top of the mouth.

When there are double consonants in romaji, that means that there is a little 'tsu' in Japanese, which means that there is a slight pause. If you consider each mora to have a beat, 'nagoya' is three beats, and so is 'chotto'. 'chotto' having 'cho' + pause + 'to'. It's not super-exaggerated or anything.

Just a few rules of thumb.

I have a quite about the ひ　in 人 and 一人... Is it really pronounced like a 'shi' so it would be 'shito'? I mean, that's how my teacher says it... But I've heard it both ways... Although when I hear a Japanese person say it, it sounds more like: hsto/hstori (instead of shto/shitori like he says it)... But I could just be imagining things... x_x

[h2orowe]

Wow, now I look like an idiot with the Zi/ji thing X3 I guess I did imagine it. I was thinking like a Gee thing and a Jee thing.... my bad, haha (How do you say my bad in Japanese? XD I wanna use that instead....)
I'll probably learn Spanish... I know first semester stuff pretty much already.

If I try and learn Japanese, too, would someone from this forum please help me? Like maybe through skype or just general help through PMs? If you would, that'd be really really cool.

[Pierrot le Fou]

My bad - ああ、しまった (aa, shimatta)

That's more like, "Dammit, I screwed up" but works anywhere you'd say 'my bad' pretty-much.

And there are so few words that use ぢ or づ that it's not really an issue.

[Scott]

And there are so few words that use ぢ or づ that it's not really an issue.

Yeah. The only thing I've ever really encountered is the name 'Tezuka'.

I have a quite about the ひ　in 人 and 一人... Is it really pronounced like a 'shi' so it would be 'shito'? I mean, that's how my teacher says it... But I've heard it both ways... Although when I hear a Japanese person say it, it sounds more like: hsto/hstori (instead of shto/shitori like he says it)... But I could just be imagining things... x_x

It's not pronounced like 'shi' at all... It sounds like 'hito', with the emphasis on the 'to' and the 'hi' sounding more like a hissed 'i', sort of. It's hard to describe.

[h2orowe]

All right cool, thanks Pierrot, you of all people I thought would be like
"No! Don't teach the wapanese kid a phrase! -.- here's another one to add to the list along with kawaii"

I barely use Japanese in person, haha, I just use an engrish accent alot.
I fucking hate the word Kawaii, though..... everytime I'm in Japanese club if I hear "THATS SO KAWAII" I tell them to please not use that... if they say it again I say shut up..... than after that I'm like fuck it, and they lose any respect I had for them.

[Ketay]

My bad - ああ、しまった (aa, shimatta)

That's more like, "Dammit, I screwed up" but works anywhere you'd say 'my bad' pretty-much.

And there are so few words that use ぢ or づ that it's not really an issue.

What is a word that uses ぢ？ I can't think of any... I mean, I know つづる and つづく (which is at the end of so many anime episodes o_o) off the top of my head... But I don't think I've ever even heard a word with ぢ (that I noticed).

[Chinpokomon]

My bad - ああ、しまった (aa, shimatta)


My bad - 俺/僕/私のミス
(ore/boku/watashi no misu - my mistake)
A more literal (but not necessarily better) translation


And there are so few words that use ぢ or づ that it's not really an issue.


気付いたら、シャツはもう縮んでた。 :D
Those are the only words I can think of off the top of my head.

[Faumdano]

For ひ, it's almost identical to the german ich. With an english 'he' your tongue is in a fairly neutral central position in your mouth, whereas the japanese 'hi' your tongue is very close to the roof of your mouth and is more tense than an english 'he'.

[h2orowe]

I'll just use Shimatta, cuz it's spelled the coolest!
I'll use Boku no misu in person though.


Two questions again, how is the Su pronounced? Is it considered bad grammar to pronounce the u? I've heard people pronounce the u in desu before, but my grammar book says not to.
Also, how often is Watakushi wa used in place of watashi wa? It's in my grammar book too.....
but than again, my book is old, and I got it used, and it came with a vinyl.....

[Scott]

In casual speech, it generally is not pronounced as much as an American would do it. It's still there, though - it's not just an 's'. In slow, polite speech, I have heard the 'u' pronounced. Especially in extreme cases of keigo.

If you want another phrase, here's one for presenting a present to someone in Japan: "tsumaranai mono desu kedo..." - "It's an uninteresting thing, but..."

[Invictus]

Two questions again, how is the Su pronounced? Is it considered bad grammar to pronounce the u? I've heard people pronounce the u in desu before, but my grammar book says not to.

The U is still there, but it's subtle. Best I can describe it is an 's' sound with the feeling of a u, maybe like you wanted to say u afterwards but changed your mind at the last second.

Also, how often is Watakushi wa used in place of watashi wa? It's in my grammar book too.....

Not often, unless you're being really polite. People will look at you funny if you use わたくし in regular conversation.

[Pierrot le Fou]

いちぢく (fig or prune or something)

[EIJI]

What is a word that uses ぢ？ I can't think of any... I mean, I know つづる and つづく (which is at the end of so many anime episodes o_o) off the top of my head... But I don't think I've ever even heard a word with ぢ (that I noticed).

【ちりぢり】 散り散り
【てぢか】 手近
【はなぢ】 鼻血
【わるぢえ】 悪知恵

and　【ぢ】　痔 :D

[Chinpokomon]

【ぢ】　痔 :D
:eek:
爆笑！ :p

[Dana]

I have only ever heard "watakushi" when kids are joking around... o.O But then I haven't ever really been somewhere where ultra polite speech is the way to go.

[Scott]

Watakushi is keigo.

Watakushi -> watashi -> boku/atashi -> ore, if you want a hierarchy.

[Chinpokomon]

Yokohama-san uses watakushi

[alansmithee]

Like putting accents on the wrong syllable. A typical westerner pronouncing Japanese words... inuYAsha... kaGOme... etc.

Also, you know, sometimes you feel like they're read romaji rather than hiragana? in さしすせそ I hear 'sh-' rather than 's-' a lot. I think it's a mistake that results from teaching them romaji BEFORE hiragana. I learned hiragana in first grade, and I didn't start romaji until fourth grade!

Hmm, this makes me think my current Japanese textbook. In there, it teaches hiragana alongside romanji and doesn't focus on romanji, but in the pronunciation it has し being "shi" instead of "si".

edit-didn't read the rest of the discussion before posting.

So is general consensus to attempt "si" or "shi"?

[EIJI]

I can’t talk about difficulties of Japanese pronunciation, because I’m Japanese.
But I can talk about a sad story of my bad English pronunciation.

About 10 years ago, I visited to Geneva for Exhibition or something.
After looking around Exhibit hall, I stopped by a coffee stand,
at the time I can’t speak a single English sentence properly,
but I thought I could speak single word, “coffee”.

Me: kohii Puriize.

Clark: ?

Me: KOhii

Clark: ??
…..Why can’t she understand A SINGLE ENGLISH WORD? One more try, change the intonation.

Me: koHIii

…No reaction.
So, I just pointed out the coffee cup holding by someone near me.

Clark: COFFEE!

English pronunciation is difficult too.
.
.
.

[Faumdano]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_phonology

[hanacker]

It's not pronounced like 'shi' at all... It sounds like 'hito', with the emphasis on the 'to' and the 'hi' sounding more like a hissed 'i', sort of. It's hard to describe.

The "hito" in "anohito" definitely sounds like it has an "s" in it sometimes.

[Scott]

I've never heard an 's' sound in 'ano hito'... you might just be interpreting the breathiness of the 'hi' as an 's'.

[Jess]

Never forget the prevalence of crazy dialects. :)

In Sanuki-ben, shichi is "hichi". Took a little getting used to.

[Pierrot le Fou]

And in Tokyo, the 'hi' sound is VERY close to the 'shi' sound to the untrained ear. They really aren't that different as far as mouth shape and tongue placement are concerned, so it'd be easy to mistake them at times.

[h2orowe]

I'll just have to get a Japanese girl to teach me the tongue placement... ehh ehh?

Hahaha, I think I'll just rent some Japanese tapes from my library... or should I saaaaaaay Raibureri....... no............................

Is guitar "Gita" or "Gitaa"?


How would I ask someone their name in Japanese?
I know
Wata(ku)shi wa Joii desu

Isn't it
Anata wa desu ka?

[Pierrot le Fou]

You don't. After introducing yourself, they should do the same.

If you need to ask, do not use anata. 'Namae wa?' should do the trick.

[h2orowe]

Namae? Is that taken from English?

In my book it says:
Anata wa donata desu ka? for Who are you?

[hanacker]

I've never heard an 's' sound in 'ano hito'... you might just be interpreting the breathiness of the 'hi' as an 's'.

So you think the "hi" in "hito ga iru" and "anohito ga iru" sound the same?(crappy sentences, i know)

[atomiton]

anata wa dare? also works... it's like saying... So Yeah, and who are you?

donata is polite dare.

namae is not from english.

[atomiton]

You don't. After introducing yourself, they should do the same.

If you need to ask, do not use anata. 'Namae wa?' should do the trick.

"o namae wa" is more polite but not overly from.

[h2orowe]

Wow, that's crazy that asking for a name uses Namae.... unless namae is something completely different.


I found out the book I have is EXTREME POLITE.... it uses everything mega polite, like "Watakushi wa" and it says only use Watashi wa if you're sure you're familiar with the person....

[Pierrot le Fou]

Using 'anata' is not polite. And you should NEVER say 'anata wa dare?' unless you want to piss someone off. Really, it's about as polite as coming up to someone and saying, "And who the fuck are you, anyway?"

So yeah, 'namae wa?' or 'o-namae wa?' is fine, the latter being more polite, but neither being offensive. 'anata wa dare' is out.

[h2orowe]

I'm never trusting Atomiton again :\

I could imagine myself going to Japan finally, and thinking I'm gonna be so polite!
"Komban wa! Watakushi wa Joii desu! Anata wa dare?"
"STRANGE JAPANESE YELLING!"
"Yoru Faiurudu!"
"Oy vey."


I think I'm gonna learn grammar and words from my book, than learn the kana systems, would this be OK?

[Justin Ellis]

I think I'm gonna learn grammar and words from my book, than learn the kana systems, would this be OK?

Do you mean "and then learn kana"?

If so, I'd say no, and I imagine most others would agree with me. You should disassociate yourself from romanji as soon as possible. Really, you can learn all of hiragana and katana each in a week if you try. Use this (http://www.msu.edu/~lakejess/kanjigame.html) website linked from my Japanese class page. Set the "kanji game" to hiragana and get started. Run through each level five or six times (or as many as you need) one new level everyday and you should do fine.

[h2orowe]

Oh ok, cool, thanks for the site.
I was learning Kana, but than I started getting lazy again -.- and stopped.
I'm gonna get into full gear now though.

[Pierrot le Fou]

It's not 'romanji,' it's ro-maji, as in ro-ma, as in rome. ローマ字.

And download slime forest h2o. It's an RPG'ish game that teaches you kana and some basic Kanji.

http://lrnj.com/

[h2orowe]

All right cool. Thanks everyone for the help. That Kanji game was fun, and the kana game thing was cool X3 I got perfect on level 1 but completely bombed on 2, and the kanji is pretty easy with multiple choice, because most look like what they say.

I'll try that RPG now.

And thanks again everyone. Arigatou Gozaimashita.

[TS-]

Library is "toshokan," and guitar is "gitaa," IIRC. Basic introduction would go something like:

"Hajimemashite. __(your name here)__ desu. Douzo yoroshiku."

Meaning: Hello, I'm ___________. Nice to meet you.

Good luck with the Japanese. I'm getting back into it after too long of a break...I saw a sentence in my old textbook that went like "watashi wa eiga o miru no ga ski desu" and it blew my freaking MIND because of how the "no" was used, so that's a bad sign.... hahaha.

[RoseJeide]

I see what you're saying Rika but there's a difference between being complimented by a classmate or a friend and being told you're awesome at Japanese when you've only said two sentences to a person you've just met. The latter is what most non-native speakers get when they speak Japanese in Japan...



You are too pessimistic. Just accept the compliment as it is.

In my Japanese class, there is a Chinese and a white student. The Chinese girl doesn't have too bad of an accent, but the white girl's is...painful sometimes. I try really hard to correct hers. So then, once in a while it sounds PERFECT. And when that happens, I don't hesitate to compliment her. I sure hope she doesn't think like you do...>.>

Maybe the difference between your interpretation and mine is the fact that I compliment AND criticize. Maybe for you, people has just been complimenting and no criticism. In that case, then yeah, maybe you've got some unsupportive friends. Maybe they just got tired of you speaking without improvement, so by saying this, they can shut you up for good.

[Puchu]

I still get the "ojouzu!" from strangers, but people I usually see don't say it too much. My friends sometimes say that I'm getting better lately... whereupon my english teacher says "no, it's getting worse, cause you guys won't use proper japanese! She's even started to remember stupid words like "bimyou" and "kimoi"!"
..it's pretty funny. XD and the nurse at the school is amazed that she's never yet had to explain what a word means to me.

...people are also, for some weird reason, very surprised when I know words like "lolicon" or "tamagochi"....

...but my japanese is getting better. it showed on my english test the other day. I went up.... 10-20 points from the test I had before the summer holiday! And I can now read certain amounts of no-furigana manga, which I couldn't when I first came, so it is getting better.

...but the answer to "nihongo jouzu desu nee!" is still "iee, sonna koto nai desu! mada mada desu yo!"

[Ketay]

Using 'anata' is not polite. And you should NEVER say 'anata wa dare?' unless you want to piss someone off. Really, it's about as polite as coming up to someone and saying, "And who the fuck are you, anyway?"

So yeah, 'namae wa?' or 'o-namae wa?' is fine, the latter being more polite, but neither being offensive. 'anata wa dare' is out.

Hmm... Textbooks really need to take a trip to Japan then. ^^ (I remember our 1st-3rd year books were written by a company in Australia). I mean, they all teach you to ALWAYS use あなた/わたし... I mean, after reading through other Japanese books you learn when to use each one... But yeah... Kind of annoying... Probably moreso for beginning students.

A: 私はキイテです。　私は十七才です。　私はおかしが好きです。　はじめまして～！　あなたの名前は何ですか ？
B: 今日は！　私の名前はボブです。　私は十六才です。　私はテレビが好きです。　どうぞよろしく ！

I remember the days of that. -_-

[Chinpokomon]

I still get the "ojouzu!" from strangers, but people I usually see don't say it too much. My friends sometimes say that I'm getting better lately... whereupon my english teacher says "no, it's getting worse, cause you guys won't use proper japanese! She's even started to remember stupid words like "bimyou" and "kimoi"!"

Why do you have an English teacher? Do you mean like the English teacher you're the assistant for??


...but my japanese is getting better. it showed on my english test the other day. I went up.... 10-20 points from the test I had before the summer holiday! And I can now read certain amounts of no-furigana manga, which I couldn't when I first came, so it is getting better.

Why would an English test tell you that your Japanese is getting better? I'm assuming that's just a mistake.

[seta-san]

this phrase is used all the time to be polite. The better your japanese gets the less you hear this and the more they look at you strange, like a horse that can do math.

[BluZytrix]

I've been here in Tokyo for a month now and have gotten this comment about a hundred times now. It's usually from older people or people that have little contact with foreigners. The first time I heard this, I forgot the whole denial thing, thought in English, translated to Japanese and said thanks. The next 99 times have been the good old denial. I will also get complimented on writing in kanji too. Heaven forbid if I had to write my acutal address down for paperwork or something. It still makes me laugh, but I have made an effort to return the favor to English learners over here. What this compliment really made me think about is how how America works. There are so many people from different backgrounds living there that everyone assumes you speak English which makes it easy to see why we don't hand out cookies for good English skills. On the other hand, if you are foriegn here in Japan, you probably came from a non-Japanese speaking place so your effort is much more easily noticed. I like the phrase because it actually means the people where paying attention to you and makes me feel better on days where Japanese refuses to come out of my mouth.

[seta-san]

i always just got the feeling they were just being polite. Like when you fart and everyone knows your shit stinks but politely pretend it wasn't there.

I've been here in Tokyo for a month now and have gotten this comment about a hundred times now. It's usually from older people or people that have little contact with foreigners. The first time I heard this, I forgot the whole denial thing, thought in English, translated to Japanese and said thanks. The next 99 times have been the good old denial. I will also get complimented on writing in kanji too. Heaven forbid if I had to write my acutal address down for paperwork or something. It still makes me laugh, but I have made an effort to return the favor to English learners over here. What this compliment really made me think about is how how America works. There are so many people from different backgrounds living there that everyone assumes you speak English which makes it easy to see why we don't hand out cookies for good English skills. On the other hand, if you are foriegn here in Japan, you probably came from a non-Japanese speaking place so your effort is much more easily noticed. I like the phrase because it actually means the people where paying attention to you and makes me feel better on days where Japanese refuses to come out of my mouth.

[Frankey-eh]

What this compliment really made me think about is how how America works. There are so many people from different backgrounds living there that everyone assumes you speak English which makes it easy to see why we don't hand out cookies for good English skills.

Now that you made the connection to English...
I disagree... when I was learning English, people DID tell me I spoke it well, and people DID tell me my handwriting was neat. But it didn't really dampen my spirit or made me feel like I was being "babied". Quite the contrary, it gave me the necessary encouragement to keep learning and improve. In fact, I think it's because people made me believe I had a talent in English that I pushed myself to take advanced English course work now.

[Chinpokomon]

I've noticed the compliments I get change forms.

When I really sucked at Japanese:
日本語が上手ですね。
(Your Japanese is good)

After a couple years:
日本語の２年生にしては、日本語が上手ですね。
(Your Japanese is good, for only studying it for 2 years)


Now that I can hold a decent conversation：
どうしてこんなに日本語ができるんですか？
(How did you get to be so good at Japanese?)

I'd *LIKE* to believe that there is more honne, less tatemae further down the list, but what do I know?

[kitsunepixie]

My bad - 俺/僕/私のミス
(ore/boku/watashi no misu - my mistake)
A more literal (but not necessarily better) translation



気付いたら、シャツはもう縮んでた。 :D
Those are the only words I can think of off the top of my head.

悪かった！　is also used like "my bad."

In general, when Japanese people compliment you on your Japanese ability, they say it not to be tatemae (and certainly not to be sarcastic); they say it because they truly are impressed that a foreigner has taken the time to use their language, especially since Japanese people often feel that although they study English very hard, they still lack the confidence to use it and feel that they aren't "jouzu" at it at all. You could be a total beginner or flawlessly fluent in Japanese and still get the same comments, which is probably very frustrating for someone who has studied the language for many years and sees someone who cannot even pronounce "Tokyo" correctly receive the same comments as him. You may even be told that you're perfect (完璧じゃん！), which you could probably ponder over for the rest of your life trying to figure out whether it is true or not. Learning a language, whether it is a second language or your native tongue, is a lifelong learning process. Use those compliments to stoke yourself to keep on studying. ;)

[silentplummet]

In the past day or two I have introduced myself to about 15 Japanese girls. They have all said to me, with no exception or variation:

ああ、日本語が上手ですね。

The reason they use GA instead of WA here is as follows. In a sentence where WA marks the topic, one uses GA to indicate a relative subordinate clause. However the structure is different here.

GA is also used with 可能形 - the potential form of verbs. Example:

漢字が読めます。 I can read Kanji.
日本酒が飲めます。 I can drink Japanese liquor.

Kanji and Sake are not direct objects in these sentences and so they take the particle GA rather than WO. In the sentence "Nihongo ga jyozu desu ne", the potential form of suru-- dekiru-- is implied. "Japanese" is not the topic of this sentence. What is at hand is the fact that you can speak it skillfully. Alternatively, you might hear:

日本語が上手にできますね。

This is more explicitly saying "You can do Japanese skillfully, can't you" rather than "Such skillful Japanese", but the use of WA and GA are the same in both cases.

Incidentally, I did indeed get 15 keitais.

[Chinpokomon]

What do you need with 15 phones? :p

[hanacker]

In the past day or two I have introduced myself to about 15 Japanese girls. They have all said to me, with no exception or variation:

ああ、日本語が上手ですね。

The reason they use GA instead of WA here is as follows. In a sentence where WA marks the topic, one uses GA to indicate a relative subordinate clause. However the structure is different here.

GA is also used with 可能形 - the potential form of verbs. Example:

漢字が読めます。 I can read Kanji.
日本酒が飲めます。 I can drink Japanese liquor.

Kanji and Sake are not direct objects in these sentences and so they take the particle GA rather than WO. In the sentence "Nihongo ga jyozu desu ne", the potential form of suru-- dekiru-- is implied. "Japanese" is not the topic of this sentence. What is at hand is the fact that you can speak it skillfully. Alternatively, you might hear:

日本語が上手にできますね。

This is more explicitly saying "You can do Japanese skillfully, can't you" rather than "Such skillful Japanese", but the use of WA and GA are the same in both cases.


We just learned that jouzu always takes ga.

[hapacheese]

You have to understand several things.

1) Japan is an extremely homogenous culture, and has been for many, many years. It wasn't until recently that the number of gaijin began to grow, so they're still not used to foreigners speaking half-decent to good Japanese.

2) The Japanese language is exclusive to the islands of Japan. There really isn't much reason to speak it if you don't plan to go there or work for a Japanese country.

3) They spend half their lives learning English, but never really get around to really speaking it. Is it any wonder if they're surprised that you learned *their* language?

Is it ignorant for some Japanese to be surprised that you speak the language? Sure. Is it insulting? It's not meant to be. That being the case, I never take it as such. I use it as an ice breaker and a means to get to know someone. Do they ever stop saying it? Of course. Once you become friends with someone and speak normally with them, they'll either forget you speak English to begin with, or will get used to your accent.

I still have people that I work with (albeit in different countries) that comment on how good my Japanese with. But I've known them for years. The thing is that I don't really hang out with them outside of meetings and whatnot, so they never really get acclimated to me speaking Japanese. My actual friends at work? When they use a difficult word that I don't understand, and I ask them what it means, they actually get confused for a second, and then laugh, saying they forgot that I'm not Japanese (despite my overtly gaijin appearance).

It's all a matter of how you handle it and whether or not you understand their intentions.

[kitsunepixie]

If you feel frustrated when Japanese people comment on your Japanese ability, just think of my friend from Chicago, whose situation is far more irksome. She has a Korean mother and is also the great-great (lots of greats) granddaugther of a very famous Confederate general on her father's side, which leads to very interesting family reunions, as you can probably imagine. She is as American as any Ford-lover in the Windy City, yet still gets asked, "Can you speak English?" or receives the compliment, "Wow, you speak English so well!" :eek:

[Jess]

I always forced myself to remember that their compliments should not go to my head. While they often came from ignorance, they were never unkindly meant, and I generally took them that way.

The best compliment I ever got was when my freind Yumi and I took a vacation in Kyoto together. We were walking down the street, and I bumped into somebody. I bowed and murmured "Suimasen". Yumi suddenly spun around and stared up at me, her eyes wide. "I thought you were Japanese!" she exclaimed. I don't know if my Japanese was always that bad before, but that was a great moment. One stupid little word. It's a small thing to be proud of, but I was. :)

[hoffa55]

I was always told when complimented on Japanese speaking ability, to respond,

tondemonaidesu. Which I was told meant, "I'd like to think so".

I always liked the introduction:

Hajimemashite.

________ to moushimasu. (I am called)

Yoroshiku onegai shimasu. (has several meanings, but means something to the effect of, "Let's be nice to each other".

Yesjapan.com it's helped me with pronunciation. They have thousands of audio files to listen to, plus they have Japanese topics shows that have helped me tremendously as well.

Just extra input :)