infinity?

[baslisks]

Is the universe boundless or just big enough to hold humanity? This choice also defines your religon.

I belive in infinity. I'm also agnostic. I believe in a rule set your part of the universe governs if there is or isn't a god. So I don't deny that there might be a god but theres an equal chance of there not being one. We live in structurerd chaos.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Which infinity? Big infinity or little infinity? The set of decimals? Or the set of fractions?

[Nekesu]

I believe the universe is just extremely large. If its infinite who cares, we will never be able to go beyond our own galaxy it being 100,000 light years across. If we ever make it to Mars that would be a large step. Is there a God, my family being mostly christian sure they believe so, I go along with it, though I don't like being asked to pray to the Lord when at funerals and stuff. "Did you ask Jesus to be your Lord and savior?" "If not I suggest you do today before you leave." Well the universe had to be made by something / someone. My astronomy teacher is religious so believes God did, his scientific side goes with that too, that the universe started with light, since light is pure energy and life begins from energy, so God may be a being of light, or made of pure energy, but who made this being of pure energy? I leave that to Family Guy: "Maybe God made himself" "Or HERSELF"

[keitaidensha]

fuck you guys, i believe in omega :cool:

[Varia]

Who's to say he (God) didn't create several (or x amount of) planets like this (or different)? There is a lot space out there.
________
IOLITE PORTABLE VAPORIZER (http://vaporizers.net/iolite-vaporizer)

[NERD]

We cannot even send people to the Mars yet. Not to mention do much about the astronomical affairs on the whole. For now, humanity is held in check within Earth. It's wee bit too early to discussing about the vastness of the universe. Build lunar colonies before that, natch.

[Idlethought]

Hey...how about this idea. Why dont we work on fixing what we messed up on THIS planet before we expand and fuck up OTHER planets? eh? what about that one?

[ruaidhri]

Didn’t you know? God is really the 11th Dimension, the home of parallel universes, which many scientists of the cosmos now suspect initiated the big bang that started our universe.

[Zonehunter1]

But wouldn't that mean that something had to create that parallel universe?
Therefore there is no finite value on our term "universe", it is just a part of what may be an even bigger universe and so on, the possiblities are infinite.

[Idlethought]

Personally, I see it as an extreme fallacy of logic when someone says something like that.

What if it's too late to "fix" this planet?

I believe that we should immediately search for life on Europa, and then we should try colonizing the Moon and Mars. The Moon and Mars are our safest bets. Any further, and we would be reaching asteroids. Even further, and we'd be on Titan and Europa. And before we leave this solar system, we should try colonizing Pluto. Then, if anything happens to Earth, like a nuclear war or whatever, then we might actually have a chance elsewhere. A nuclear war would occur so fast that we wouldn't have the time to think and plan whether we should abandon Earth or not.

Now, I'm sure some of you are thinking, "all that stuff about nuclear war and global warming is just nonsense made to scare us into paying for stuff we don't need." To which I say: how can you really be sure? If the world were destroyed right now, we would be wiped from the face of the Universe. You probably wouldn't even know if destruction were a few seconds away.

And for those of you thinking, "God will save us." I say: I am an atheist, and I bring forth Solipsism. You cannot prove that God exists just as much as atheists cannot prove that God doesn't exist. Even though I have already proven to myself that God doesn't exist, I cannot prove it to anybody else. Therefore, you cannot take the risk of waiting for God to save us.

Got that? We can't afford to be proven wrong.

As for infinity? Try dividing 1 by 3.

Where do you come with all this god will/will not save us shit? Whats with all this colonizing other planets bizness, I'm saying why dont we stop increasing the problem while we're still alive and try to make best of what we already have instead of spreading our influence to the rest of the universe and essentially not really learning from our mistakes. and yes genius, lets colonize pluto which is so cold it almost reaches absolute fucking zero. nice job smartass. and lets colonize the moon which has no resources. *sigh* people.

[Idlethought]

Not defensive just very tired. very very tired.

[Idlethought]

I also noticed that some people mentioned colonizing other worlds. Shortly after one of those posts, you appeared to be slightly offensive when you said something that I've read many times before like, "we should try finding intelligent life on this planet before we go finding it on other planets" or "we have enough problems on this planet, why should we make more by going to others?" or "we are the plague of the Universe. We will just screw up all the other planets like we screwed up this one. We're better off going down with this planet" or "we will blow up the Moon which will fall unto Earth thus killing us" or "we will piss off an alien race" or "we are going too far with technology enough" or "God doesn't want us to leave this planet."

I firmly believe that we should fix what we got before aquiring something new. And yes in respect to everything else human beings *coughwhitepeoplecough* have been the plague of the world since we came out of caves. Ready for another "I've heard it a million times" saying? The surest sign that there's intelligent life in the universe is that it hasnt tried to contact us.

[Monkey]

Firstly, I think we should get back on topic.

Secondly, I believe the latest astronomical data showed that the universe is a closed system (not infinite). I won't bore you with the maths so I'll just leave it there.

[Balain]

Firstly, I think we should get back on topic.

Secondly, I believe the latest astronomical data showed that the universe is a closed system (not infinite). I won't bore you with the maths so I'll just leave it there.

The last I heard They just don't know if it's a closed sytem or infinite

[Monkey]

Nah I think they found the curve a couple of years ago. Of course as with everything to do with astronomy it's still debatable. So maybe someone else couldn't find the curve and we're back to stage one. My astronomy professor seems to believe that it's most likely to be closed though.

[Idlethought]

what if it's closed but rapidly expanding?

[Macaba]

You must be aware that the most basic particle is the Atom because it is the smallest thing that has its own distinctive property.

Meh, I'm in a pedantic mood, so I'll just give you this tidbit-
What about Quarks and Leptons?

[Scott]

Two pieces of flamebait.

1. How does your stance on infinity define your religious stance?
2. Atoms are not particles.

[baslisks]

1.in a closed system I don't see how an infinte being can exist and it would form a paradox in the universe probably making infinte. Even if its energy you can't store infinite energy in something limited.
2.Possible it could just very condesnsed energy. Thats actually my belief. Everything is energy it just depends on how compressed it is defines what shape it takes on.

[Zaysho]

I remember we had some discussion about this in Government class. Someone brought up something along the lines of "There are more stars than there are grains sand". Well, you know, no shit right? The universe is a big place. Beyond our current comprehension, and possibly just beyond our understanding ever. Who gives a damn? I know I'm not gonna live to find out where the universe ends. If it's finite, alrighty, it's not quite as big as we thought. If it's infinite, well, damn, none of us are gonna live to find out everything. I just wanna be happy with my family/friends, with art and, hell, just plain living.

[Ybbor]

just to play devil's advocate...

once you believe the universe is infinite, you have to believe in just about everything. Because there is an infinite amount of space, an infinite amount of possibilities exist with an infinite amount of matter. somewhere trillions upon trillions of light-years away- if the universe is infinite- there would be a pile of matter sitting just like earth, exactly the same, only my pencil is pointing slightly different way. because if the universe is infinite somewhere it has to exist.

so...

Somewhere in the universe there is an assembly of particles resembling something we would call heaven...with assemblies of creatures resembling angels...

if the universe is infinite...

[baslisks]

I remember we had some discussion about this in Government class. Someone brought up something along the lines of "There are more stars than there are grains sand". Well, you know, no shit right? The universe is a big place. Beyond our current comprehension, and possibly just beyond our understanding ever. Who gives a damn? I know I'm not gonna live to find out where the universe ends. If it's finite, alrighty, it's not quite as big as we thought. If it's infinite, well, damn, none of us are gonna live to find out everything. I just wanna be happy with my family/friends, with art and, hell, just plain living.
Well what happens if there are sand on those planets? Thats a lot of freaking sand.

[Zaysho]

Well what happens if there are sand on those planets? Thats a lot of freaking sand.

Yeah, I was gonna point out in that whole little discussion in Gov. class that Earth isn't the only solid planet in the Universe, but no one ever pays attention to me...

I thought I'd quote something from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by saying:

"Infinity itself looks flat and uninteresting. Looking up into the night sky is looking into infinity -- distance is incomprehensible and therefore
meaningless."

We may as well shut up and stop worrying about it.

[Chinpokomon]

just to play devil's advocate...

once you believe the universe is infinite, you have to believe in just about everything. Because there is an infinite amount of space, an infinite amount of possibilities exist with an infinite amount of matter. somewhere trillions upon trillions of light-years away- if the universe is infinite- there would be a pile of matter sitting just like earth, exactly the same, only my pencil is pointing slightly different way. because if the universe is infinite somewhere it has to exist.

so...

Somewhere in the universe there is an assembly of particles resembling something we would call heaven...with assemblies of creatures resembling angels...

if the universe is infinite...

I'd have to disagree.
Infinity does not necessarily mean infinite possibilities.

1/3 = 0.333333333... etc.

Somewhere, 100 trillion 3's down the line, there is not a 5.

Similarly, just because one believes that the universe is infinite, does not mean that they have to believe there are angels or heaven at the other side.
There's just more empty space (3's)

[decswxaqz]

The universe is finite, space is infinite. Since the universe (by current theories) is expanding or has expanded at least, it must be expanding into something. So the space around the universe is either infinite, or just a little big larger than needed at any given time so it expands into it =/.

I'd like to believe the universe is infinite, because then every possible combination exists. Because it can exist as someone else said, in infinite time and space.
Take the chance of a planet being like Earth. Trillions to one or something large. (someone calculated it but I'm too lazy to find it). Trillions is nothing to infinity, so it can exist. So with his pencil analogy, it could very well exist.

But since the universe expanded and might very well contract, it's finite and as such, only a few planets are inhabitable and not likely to be a direct copy of our own.

The Guide has a nice little proof that we don't exist. Something like
The universe is infinite
Not all planets are inhabitable = finite
Infinite number of planets / Finite number of habitable ones ~ 0 population :)
It's better in the book ^_^

[Monkey]

^^ That's what I meant to say. I just assumed that we were talking about space rather than the universe. Almost all scientists accepted that the universe (the amount of matter/energy there is) is finite decades ago.

Whether space is infinite is a different matter (ie. whether the universe will carry on expanding or eventually contract). That is what I meant by the universe being a closed in system. Anyone who believes that the actual Universe (sum of all matter/energy) is infinite probably needs to go back to school.


The idea of an infinite universe is pretty cool though a tad unlikely. It would mean, as was said above, that anything that can exist, does exist, somewhere. Therefore there would be no more atheists or arguments about religion as God really could be proven to exist by definition. Of course so would Allah and all the others so you'd still get arguments about which religion is right :p


EDIT: However, when you choose your hypothesis and conclusion based on what you would like to see, it is generally called bad science. Therefore hoping that the universe is infinite just because it solves a few (non-scientific) issues for you despite all evidence to the contrary is just silly.

[Idlethought]

Why cant the universe be infinite inside of a finite boundary? and dont tell me thats impossible. heres how I see it.

you have the number 1. you have the number 2. Thats a finite boundary. But theres an infinite amount of numbers inside that boundary. Somehow between one and two theres 1.1, 1.11, 1.111, 1.1111, 1.11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111, etc. why cant the universe be the same way

[Balain]

The Guide has a nice little proof that we don't exist. Something like
The universe is infinite
Not all planets are inhabitable = finite
Infinite number of planets / Finite number of habitable ones ~ 0 population :)
It's better in the book ^_^

Infinity divided by any number is infinity, except for zero of course. It should be the other way around...

"It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that the population of the whole Universe is also zero, and that any people you may meet from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination."

[Ybbor]

It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds.

no, if one out of every x planets is inhabitable, and there are infinite planets x, tha there are infinite inhabited planets

[Marie]

I think I'm more afraid of the universe being closed than I am of it being infinite. It's just like people who were afraid way back when they thought the world was flat; there was an end, if they crossed the line, they would fall off.

Didn't I hear somewhere about the universe actually being a particular shape? Maybe it's in the shape of a katamari. <3

[Balain]

no, if one out of every x planets is inhabitable, and there are infinite planets x, tha there are infinite inhabited planets

I was just quoting the book

[Radiance]

While i've always enjoyed a conversation of theory, I think i'm going to opt with the "I'm not going to live long enough for it to matter." answer on this one. Hell, i'd die of shock if we colonized somewhere other than a "space station" before my death.

[decswxaqz]

I knew it was something like that ^_^ I didn't have the book to hand. Thanks for correcting me

Why cant the universe be infinite inside of a finite boundary? and dont tell me thats impossible. heres how I see it.
Fractals are the easiest thing to compare it with in this instance. But fractals are a special case. The same can not be applied to the universe because we are talking about life. The term life would stop at atom size I'd imagine :).

[Monkey]

Why cant the universe be infinite inside of a finite boundary?

Because infinite is larger than finite by definition.

Can you fit 20 litres of beer into a 10 litre jug? Of course not. Therefore you can't fit an infinite universe into a finite space. A simple analogy, but true nonetheless.

[Marie]

What if the universe just loops back around into itself? Like if you reach the end, you arrive back at the beginning?

[Chuplayer]

I just love it how we started working with infinity in calculus, and they don't even explain what it is or how it's used. Then they expect us to understand the complexities of what infinity is.

Fucking teachers.

[baslisks]

What if the universe just loops back around into itself? Like if you reach the end, you arrive back at the beginning?
are you saying its like we are on the outside of a sphere with however many dimensions there are? If you started walking around the moon you would sooner or later end up in the same place you started.

[decswxaqz]

Can you fit 20 litres of beer into a 10 litre jug? Of course not. Therefore you can't fit an infinite universe into a finite space. A simple analogy, but true nonetheless.
I guess you didn't read my fractal analogy. You can keep zooming in on a part of a fractal forever and it can be contained in a circle or other finite region. It is possible, but not for practical uses me thinks *-)

[Monkey]

I guess you didn't read my fractal analogy. You can keep zooming in on a part of a fractal forever and it can be contained in a circle or other finite region. It is possible, but not for practical uses me thinks *-)

I might have read it, I'd just got back from the pub however (thus the 20 litres of beer part) :p

I'm no mathematician (I'm a physicist) so I don't know a huge amount about pure maths like fractals. But wouldn't a fractal be a vanishing infinity rather than a large infinity? So it's not that great an analogy because of course you can fit something infinitely small into a finite space. Whereas I thought we were talking about the universe being infinately large. I prefer the beer analogy myself (or just beer itself)... ;)

[Flock]

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_curve) is what decswxaqz meant. The main point of this example being "The area of the Koch snowflake is 8/5 that of the initial triangle, so an infinite perimeter encloses a finite area."

[baslisks]

I guess you didn't read my fractal analogy. You can keep zooming in on a part of a fractal forever and it can be contained in a circle or other finite region. It is possible, but not for practical uses me thinks *-)
but in the real world there are only so many times you can do a fractal. Theoretically its injfinite but in the real world it falls apart.

[Trump]

The boundary for the universe is completely imaginary. Who is to say it ends with that star or that empty space or... you get the idea. So to say that imaginary boundaries like those found in fractals don't apply is hypocritical in this conversation.

[Monkey]

Btw, hands up who is an actual physicist?

[baslisks]

Btw, hands up who is an actual physicist?
bah who needs fancy degrees when you have fancful ideas that annoy people?

[Kuhool]

one of the things i've read is the universe will expand so large, that eventually it's only choice will be to shrink again, and the bing bang'll happen again. supposedly we're a part of one of these cycles.

[Idlethought]

I might have read it, I'd just got back from the pub however (thus the 20 litres of beer part) :p

I'm no mathematician (I'm a physicist) so I don't know a huge amount about pure maths like fractals. But wouldn't a fractal be a vanishing infinity rather than a large infinity? So it's not that great an analogy because of course you can fit something infinitely small into a finite space. Whereas I thought we were talking about the universe being infinately large. I prefer the beer analogy myself (or just beer itself)... ;)

why does it have to be infinitely large? why cant the universe be infinitely vanishing instead? stick THAT in ya pipe and smoke it!

[Flock]

An expanding universe does not mean that it will eventually shrink. In fact, current evidence shows that the expansion is accelerating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy).

[Monkey]

why does it have to be infinitely large? why cant the universe be infinitely vanishing instead? stick THAT in ya pipe and smoke it!

Because infinitely small would be non-existence. At the very least it would be some very complicated maths and I hate re-normalising infinites...

[Praetorian]

An astrophysicist I know said this;

What if the universe just loops back around into itself? Like if you reach the end, you arrive back at the beginning?

Is his and many of his collegues' preferred theory.

[Scott]

klein bottle.

[Monkey]

An astrophysicist I know said this;

What if the universe just loops back around into itself? Like if you reach the end, you arrive back at the beginning?

Is his and many of his collegues' preferred theory.

My preferred one as well. It means that there is no such thing as space outside the "universe bubble". In fact, there is no outside. It is quite a nice theory. No idea whether it's backed up by evidence though.