Japan apologizes for past attrocities - is it enough?

[Azrael]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050815/ap_on_re_as/asia_liberation_day;_ylt=AqDe1x6cTYbHbUlEEwkZOCis0 NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-

The short of it - Japanese PM Koizumi apologized (again) for many of the Japanese attrocities committed during WWII on the anniversary of Japan's surrender. But many countries, including China and Korea, are still pretty hot about it and demand compensation.

On one hand, Japan has apologized, which is good. And the people claiming that the Yasukuni Shrine visits are a sign of Japan becoming militaristic/imperialistic again are blowing things out of proportion. I've been to that shrine, and while it is plenty ridiculous, I don't think Koizumi visiting it means "you just wait China/Korea, we're coming for you again when the time is right...".

On the other hand, what I find to still be really shitty about the whole situation is the way Japan still glosses over it all. Your average Japanese person probably has no idea about the things that happened in China and Korea. Ask them about it, and they'd probably say something like "That was the past. Why can't we just let it go?" But they'll still whine about being the first and only country to have been A-bombed, pretty liberally actually.

Thoughts?

[Iekleane]

The Chinese and Koreans are just trying to get compensation for it or extort money through the anguish that was caused to them, and the Japanese don't wish to educate people on the atrocities that they've commited but it isn't just them that gloss things over, countless other countries probably do the same including America.

[Shinigami]

You are quite right on the topic of the A-bomb. The mayor of Hiroshima and Nagisaki(I know I didn't spell those right!) was recently here in Tennessee at Oak Ridge, where they built the A-bombs that were dropped there, talking about how we are still making bombs there and that we should look at what happened there in japan and how horrible it was. I am not saying that I disagree with them... However, wasn't there a movement to revise the Japanese constitution to allow millitary action...
One more thing, I have an acquantince who was in the Thai military and faught against the Japanese, he still hates them very much... So there is obviously still anger towards japan for such things. The japanese should just accept it and apologise about what they did and move on.

[Myrsilus]

The Chinese and Koreans are just trying to get compensation for it or extort money through the anguish that was caused to them, and the Japanese don't wish to educate people on the atrocities that they've commited but it isn't just them that gloss things over, countless other countries probably do the same including America.
Indeed. I think the Japanese have apologized a lot already, and those demanding monetary compensation are just doing this out of spite. Money will not make up for this sort of pain. If anything, it may only heighten greed. I really don't know what else they can do.

Concerning the history books... pretty much all history books around the world need to speak the entire truth concerning all matters and not save face for their respective countries. America is included in this. There really is not much that can be done for the entire world, so each country, I hope, can wise up and start educating the children completely and not pushing aside the bad parts of the past.

What the Japanese have done is quite atrocious... but I really wonder what else they could do to appease those left with bitterness from their conquests.

[Intense]

Is it the current people that are in power fault's that their predecessors made some serious mistakes? no, odds are the people that are at fault are long dead by now.
The apology would most likely be on behalf of the ones who can't say it.

We have a similar problem thats not on such a grand scale occuring in australia reguarding the aboriginees and the stolen generation. The government refuses to say sorry on the (un-official) grounds that they'll have to pay compensation to the aboriginal people

[akitaka]

Tell me how the other politicians feel and you will probably be telling me how they lied. Koizumi seems like a swell guy, it's just the ones behind him that make me a tad edgy. Ishihara is a prime example.
The whole 1st world country having a third world mindset is annoying, however. The hospitals in China that refuse to give care to people who don't apologize for something they didn't do? It's just redundant. This is why I can't condone in nationalism when countries DEPEND on each other for economic balance.

You are quite right on the topic of the A-bomb. The mayor of Hiroshima and Nagisaki(I know I didn't spell those right!) was recently here in Tennessee at Oak Ridge, where they built the A-bombs that were dropped there, talking about how we are still making bombs there and that we should look at what happened there in japan and how horrible it was. I am not saying that I disagree with them... However, wasn't there a movement to revise the Japanese constitution to allow millitary action...
Oh and don't forget the numerous locations involving the A-Bomb testing; many people, in, say, Mexico, are still suffering from the after-effects, whereas Japan kind of instigated the attacks (and rebuilt the cities; they should be proud). War is still war; illogical, belligerent, lacking pragmatism. A lot of people are too busy blaming each other rather than the perps who triggered the events; if they can't be found for some reason, then make up already and do something productive.

[Iekleane]

If the world were perfect that would be true but it isn't, pride gets in the way too much. Not saying we shouldnt be proud but know what to be proud of and what we shouldn't.

[Kusoyaro]

A GOODER topic, finally.
MY OPINION:
The atrocities commited by the Japanese are far greater in magnitude than those committed by most other nations within the last hundred years. Those who have no concept at all of what it is like to be violated, and to live in a land that is the posterchild for both savagery and utter subjugation find it easy to say that all parties should move along, and learn from mistakes. Mistakes are hardly ever learned from, but that isn't een the issue. The issue at hand is the fact that Japan's desire to disarm and step away from nuclear power is apathetically looked upon by the rest of the world (while most of us may be against it, are any of the world-powers NOT nuclear-armed?), and thatKorea/China, much like France post WW2, NEED compensation (but won't get it until Japan`s economy stabalizes and gets better). After the Germans raped half the planet in their pursuit of the Krikkitean dream (sorry for the Douglas Adams refernce) of superiority, the Allies decided to give those, such as themselves, benefits which partly caused the German economic collapse, and which, TO THIS DAY, continue. The Japanese crimes were, for the most part, overlooked (for various trivial reasons), and have not fully been dealt with. Which, in succinct summation, is why the Japanese have such a fucking hard time dealing with it. To be completely honest, I find that what the nAZi camp did was way more appaling that what the japanese did. The Japanese Atrocities (as I'm sure it will be known in The Future) PALE in comparison to what, say, Hernan fucking Cortez did to Tenochtitlan.

In my opinion, the Abombing of Japanese civilians was worse than whatever the fuck the Japanese did to Nankings civilians (but I can't really say i blame the Americans - they had a new technology, they used it, it wasn't really a moral decision at all, and if it was, blame Einstein)
My two cents

[General_Admission]

This may be a dumb question, but is it safe to live/visit Hiroshima or Nagasaki> I've alwasy wondered how they could clean it up so well. Surely there are still lingering amounts of radiation?

It may be in everyone's best interest if Japan just glossed over the ordeal. I know it makes people angry, but mayhaps putting the past to rest is a good thing, no?

The only thing that scares me is their manipulation of text books. However, this may be for good. If Japan did fully write about the war they will inevitably make histroy very neutral. If megalomanic children knew of what Japan did & read about it in texbooks (which will give the Japanese version) they may become inspired by it & learn from Japans mistakes, implementing their own regime.

Right now Japan is supressing all military thoughts & ideas from it's people. It should stay that way.

[Kusoyaro]

It`s fine. Some amazing shrines and such, especially that Golden one, with the water and all that

[Citizen]

An apology should be enough. The current Japanese people commited no crimes. Maybe if this had been delt with during the WWII era things would be different, but it wasn't, and China and Korea are just being greedy. If Japan was poor, things would probably be different. An apology probably would have been enough now. I get the feeling that China and Korea are just pissed that Japan was able to build itself up so much after the browbeating it took all those years ago.

They need to take a lesson from the Jewish people. Hell, they never really even got an apology, and most of them don't bitch.

[hahaman]

sure japan made alot apoligizes but are they sincere? look at the germens their kids are taught about what the nazi's did in WWII and taught that it was bad and it was their fault. considering japan killed far more civilans then the germens did and done far worst crimes it looks like they aren't even trying to make up for it compare to the germens.

and don't give me that japan pays china crap that so much people are using as a excuse. japan has already officially cut the money flow to china last year or something and beside china is the fastest growing country in the world and i'm sure makes by far more money each year then what the japanese crap of a economie is making, so stop making it sound like china is just trying to suck money off japan.

i don't blame the modern day japanese people for what they did in my country and what they did to my people in fact i love their people and their culture (thats why i'm a forum about japan afterall)but i do hate the japanese government for not allowing its people to learn the truth and their constand brainwashing.

[General_Admission]

An apology should be enough. The current Japanese people commited no crimes. Maybe if this had been delt with during the WWII era things would be different, but it wasn't, and China and Korea are just being greedy. If Japan was poor, things would probably be different. An apology probably would have been enough now. I get the feeling that China and Korea are just pissed that Japan was able to build itself up so much after the browbeating it took all those years ago.

They need to take a lesson from the Jewish people. Hell, they never really even got an apology, and most of them don't bitch.

Exactly. Ever heard an Asian call Korea 'poor man's Japan?'

Koreans in class all hate Japan for not compensaitng enough, yet all their hatred stems from their parent's bigotry. None of it really stems from an impartial + - stand point.

Also, the Chinazis really bug me. Ever meet one of these people? They are so ignorant it makes me sick.

[Azrael]

Some of the people asking for compensation are actually victims, like the Phillipino sex-slave women. I'm a little more sympathetic to that.

But I don't think throwing money at a problem will help. Can you really honestly say "Well, I hate you for what you did to my ancestors...but if you give me money I'll like you more!" Doesn't really fly well. I also didn't like the idea of reparations to African-Americans for slavery.

I think the underlying problem is that the parties involved just don't like each other. As you can imagine, Japanese people don't really talk about China/Korea much, but from what little I've heard, Japanese people kind of think themselves to be the "superior" Asian nation. I don't know where/why the Chinese/Korean hate comes from, I can only guess it was passed down through the generations.

Until that problem is solved, no apologies or no revisions of textbooks is going to change things.

[Myrsilus]

Some of the people asking for compensation are actually victims, like the Phillipino sex-slave women. I'm a little more sympathetic to that.

But I don't think throwing money at a problem will help. Can you really honestly say "Well, I hate you for what you did to my ancestors...but if you give me money I'll like you more!" Doesn't really fly well. I also didn't like the idea of reparations to African-Americans for slavery.

I think the underlying problem is that the parties involved just don't like each other. As you can imagine, Japanese people don't really talk about China/Korea much, but from what little I've heard, Japanese people kind of think themselves to be the "superior" Asian nation. I don't know where/why the Chinese/Korean hate comes from, I can only guess it was passed down through the generations.

Until that problem is solved, no apologies or no revisions of textbooks is going to change things.
Exactly. It's not that no sympathy should go to the victims, but money isn't going to solve anything. That's bull. Greed at its worst.

The textbook deal, I expect, would not be to dissolve the bitterness existing between these countries. It would just be the ethical thing to do... but that is hoping for a lot. x.x

And the children should not be taught to hate. Unfortunately, that's an internal problem that is up to themselves to solve.

[Iekleane]

Not many countries can honestly say that all their issues with racial superiority are gone, in fact I don't think any can. Every country has their little quirks I agree that what happaned was attrocius but very little can be done to fix it because no matter what some people say their views will still be clouded.

[Myrsilus]

Not many countries can honestly say that all their issues with racial superiority are gone, in fact I don't think any can. Every country has their little quirks I agree that what happaned was attrocius but very little can be done to fix it because no matter what some people say their views will still be clouded.
Yep. In the end it'll be up to them to figure this thing out themselves. I seriously don't know what the hell the Japanese could do besides initiating genocide upon themselves to make up for this. They've apologized, and now the other countries must learn to accept it. Like it was stated before, do like the Jewish. They experienced similar atrocities, if not more vile.

It's a cold fact, but damn... mourn and learn to move to the next step.

[Kusoyaro]

sure japan made alot apoligizes but are they sincere? look at the germens their kids are taught about what the nazi's did in WWII and taught that it was bad and it was their fault. considering japan killed far more civilans then the germens did and done far worst crimes it looks like they aren't even trying to make up for it compare to the germens

Have you ever been to Germany? Maybe you live there, i don't know. But it is ....different. The regular people are CONSTANTLY bombarded with references to their past, with ignorant tourists who want to interogate random people and with filmmakers who ar trying to delve into the psyche of a modern german, etc., let alone the fact that the UN has them under a fucking microscope at all times. they can't even go to the bathroom without a guide (an allegory). It's fucking terrible, i feel genuine pity for them. The fact that the japanese are not taught at all is tragic, something must be done, but not in the sense where one goes around telling them how many bad things they did. Trust me, japanese schoolkids there are...different. They seem stoic and stone and shit, but they are unbelievable emotional and are as fluttery as butterflies in the sense that their whole reality can be shaken pretty fucking fast. it's only in hs that they become rooted in their culture and history and such, which leads to willful ignorance. It isn't the current Japanese children's fault, neither is it the current Germans who are responsible. The problem lies in the way the Japanese approach their history. it is personal and close to them, and they revel in it, but if they accept what they did on a broad scale, then they will have to accept that they are also brutal murderers and rapists and have the potential for unbelievable violence. Compare that with the image of japan that makes cutesy commericals and has morning masume and all that crap.

[Iekleane]

They can revel in their history but every country at some point in time has to face the fact that they aren't a perfect place, no matter where you live your country has probably done some horrible stuff in the past you just have to suck it up and move on and to make sure it never happens again. Not educating their youth isn't going to keep change the fact that they did something but if they let their children know about it they can easily stop anything like it from happaning again.

[Kusoyaro]

Ya, ur right, but i would say that it would damage them pretty bad, most won't even believe it. would you? 60 years after it supposedly happened, and you heard nothing from it? no way, jose.

[Iekleane]

I would do research on it, the internet is full of porn but everyonce in awhile there is actual info about events on it.

[Myrsilus]

Ya, ur right, but i would say that it would damage them pretty bad, most won't even believe it. would you? 60 years after it supposedly happened, and you heard nothing from it? no way, jose.
<sigh> That is a possibility. It may have been too much time for them to accept that now. Still I am a firm believer they should not hide such a truth. I mean damn... they have entire countries wishing they would go to hell.

[gizmaluke]

I do a Japanese/Chinese double major at uni and so i have alot of friends from both countries and since I have an interest in history it comes up a bit. Its strange hearing the difference in what history is taught in Australian, China and Japan. I think a major point to bring up is that the emperor has not apologized. Many Chinese and Japanese still see him as the head of the Japanese state so the Japanese prime minister apologizing doesnt have any real authority for those people. The Chinese people I have talked to have said that they and their friends don't have anything against the Japanese and its just a political thing. Granted these people either study or teach in another country so have been exposed to more ideas and aren't closed minded people that will never leave their country in body or in ideas, but I think that they most likely do speak for a large part of the population. History is a strange thing because it is almost always twisted in some way. At least there is hope, who in the middle ages in England would have seen themselves becoming allies with the French. Thankfully predjudices change with time, the trick is trying to get rid of them.
On a side note, the reason Nagasaki was cleaned of nuclear waste post explosion so quickly was that there was a storm just after it that washed alot of the radioactive materials out to sea. A nice thought for someone who spends a large amount of time surfing. Im sure ill live :D .

[Saitou Hajime]

I'd say apologies SHOULD be enough, but many people from those countries don't accept it as enough. Honestly, Koizumi didn't commit any of the atrocities that took place, nor did most of Japan's current population, yet he still apologizes for sins that are not his own. He doesn't need to grovel and give them money; they should accept an apology that he honestly doesn't need to even give them.

[Mr.Babalo]

sorry i haven't kept up with the posts in this thread.

But i have a few questions about Japan today:

1. Do they still think koreans are inferior to them? and systematically segregate them as they did in the past?

my friend was there in the 1980s. He is a rich, filipino real estate saleman and on one of his business trips to japan he was caught talking to a korean. The japanese around him told him not to talk to him because they are korean.


2. Are Koreans garlic eaters?

is anyone familiar with Eric Van Lustbader and Marc olden(both of whom are acclaimed authors of oriental thrillers)? Both these authors stated clearly in at least 3 of there novels that Koreans are garlic eaters, out of all the characteristics one could say about koreans how come they only emphasize on the garlic-eating part?. In one book it clearly stated that "Koreans were the garlic eaters," and another one "the korean soldier reaked of garlic." etc.

One day I approached a korean in one of my classes and asked him bluntly if he liked garlic, he said no, but it's a big thing in korean, alot of people in his family like garlic. interesting.

[decswxaqz]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4151680.stm

I'm angry at the other Asian countries. Protesting that Japan hasn't faced up to it's passed crimes. It's said sorry countless times.
But across the region, many still feel that Japan has yet to fully face up to, and atone for, its wartime actions.
How do they want Japan to do that exactly, hmmm? If they really want money in compensation, they I say to Japan, give it them. If they want money to stop them berating Japan like that, and to be that shallow, let them have money.

"Only with an honest attitude towards history can a nation win reconciliation and then integrate into the global community," the China Daily said.
Protesters in Hong Kong marched to the Japanese consulate on Monday, chanting that "Japan's hands are full of fresh blood". A similar march took place in Taiwan.
This is one of "WTF?!!11?" moments IMHO. China has done some terrible things in it's past, and I'm pretty sure that they've promptly glossed over it.

I feel that there is no country that can put it's hand on it's heart and say "We've done things wrong, we are sorry AND we have given our citizens the full impartial story of what happened". I'm English, and I have no idea of what we did during Colonial times, or of slavery. Does that make England a bad country? I'm sure we said sorry at some point just like Japan has done.

As for Japan's ego trip, that's a seperate matter surely?

[Azrael]

I'm English, and I have no idea of what we did during Colonial times, or of slavery.
Kinda off topic, but...

It's funny, I was talking about this with some friends not too long ago, including one girl from the UK.

I was saying how every country puts their own spin on history. I said something like "In America, we look at the American Revolution as this great, heroic, and patriotic thing, but in the UK it's probably regarded as those uppity ungrateful snots starting shit."

The girl from the UK turned to me and said "Actually, we don't really talk about it in history studies."

When Japan glosses over the attrocities committed in Korea/China, are they doing anything different from what every other country does? I dunno...maybe we don't go into great detail about it, but in America we do learn at least that the original colonists took the land away from the Native Americans...it's not like we landed on a completely deserted continent and was like "Hey cool! Let's make states here!"

[decswxaqz]

I don't think that England committed atrocities in America during the Revolution (after all it was a tea party in Boston (or something...) :P). But yes, we don't learn anything about it.

I guess it depends on what happened as to wether an apology is good enough. I'm pretty sure that it won't happen again, they've learnt their mistakes, said sorry. What more do they want them to do? My main gripe is with China. They say Japan is hiding things, yet they block anything (internet firewall) that 'isn't for the greater good of the people'. Yes people might get around it, but you still have to go out of your way to find the information. Isn't that what Japan is doing in a sense?

[Myrsilus]

I don't think that England committed atrocities in America during the Revolution (after all it was a tea party in Boston (or something...) :P). But yes, we don't learn anything about it.
It was more the taxation without representation for us. The Boston Tea Party was an act of rebellion to the ridiculous taxes Britain made Americans pay.

[CopraSanctum]

Somehow the mutual hatred between the chinese and the japanese has been exceptionally strong. During japan's invasion of Asia, large scale massacres - by this, I refer to those with death toll totalling millions - only took place in China. Even elsewhere in Asia, eg Indonesia, they mostly hunted down the chinese. This is even more interesting considering China and Japan share many similarities in cultures; Japan has adopted stuffs like Kanji and chopsticks from China. I like to think of Japan and China as rival brothers, each trying to outdo the other. Unfortunately, what started off as sibling rivalry over time develop into animosity.

Over their recent feuds, I think both parties are culpable.
Until Japan has sincerely admitted their past atrocities, like human experimentation (unit 731) and the rape of Nanking, there is no way the chinese is going to forgive them.

On the other hand, I have noticed unhealthily high nationalism bordering on chauvinism among chinese youths. Perhaps they are the products of years of state propaganda and indoctrination, and the rapid growth of China that boosted their egos doesn't really help either. I have been unfortunate witness to instance of their nationalism going out of hand - I was threatened with knife by one after I laughed at their national soccer team (?) being thrashed by Real Madrid (?).
There is no doubt that this nationalistic fervour fuels negative sentiments towards Japan.

In addition, the chinese has to accept that though there are ultra-nationalist elements among the japanese, they are minority, like the neo-Nazis in Germany, and therefore should be ignored.

Just as additional information, the above is merely the perspective of a third-generation chinese immigrant living in Indonesia.

[Panhandle Martinez]

Let's bear in mind that until 150 years ago, Japan was a land of people who bore the following two qualities:

1. They were war-like and incredibly fierce, perhaps to a greater extent than any culture on the planet at the time
2. They permitted themselves to pretend that the rest of us didn't exist.

In Japan, there has been very little precedent for international relations. Granted my knowledge of the Edo period is spotty, but I have the basic understanding that the Japanese people were brought from a pseudo-medieval era straight into WWII within the course of 80 or so years. That interval approximates one average lifespan in the modern world.

Does it come as a surprise that their global perspective is immature?

So when the Japanese broke on to the international scene they headed straight into the war within a generation or two. They did inexcusable things, and they got A-bombed the fuck out because of it. That was all a long time ago, before any of us here at OP9 were even alive. Our responsibility now is to understand why it happened and to see that it does not happen again.

Understanding is the easy part. We know why; the reasons have been analyzed into oblivion. Now we need to be clear on where we go from here. One thing I can't stand is when someone says something to the effect of "Japan needs to apologize". This kind of a statement is lexically incoherent, and breeds misunderstanding. Japan is an idea in someone's head, or it is an archipelago in the western Pacific. Or are we referring to all the Japanese people including foreign nationals? Or maybe just the government officials who represent those people.

Chinese and Korean people who feel that "Japan needs to apologize" need to get real clear about what they specifically mean, otherwise they are just bullshitting themselves and everyone else. I've seen photos of rooms in Korea (North or South I don't honestly know) where the walls are lined with anti-Japanese propaganda drawn by grade schoolers. War atrocities from 70 years ago which are hardly relevant to anyone left alive today, except possibly the Japanese for whom the atom bomb has defined many aspects of modern life, can be forgiven. What cannot be forgiven is prolonging this kind of continued stupidity.

To speak specifically, I think Japanese people need to get over themselves, and I think Chinese and Koreans who weren't even born yet need to get over what Japanese people did to their ancestors 70 years ago. The ground of every modern nation is soiled with blood, and theirs are not fucking special in any way. I further believe that the Japanese need to get with the program, so to speak, and drop the fucking racism act.

I don't really have the solutions to these problems. You can't legislate tolerance and free thinking. But denying your citizens free access to informational resources like the internet or unbiased history books isn't exactly the right place to start. Having your schoolchildren draw hate propaganda isn't exactly the right place to start.

[ChronoSphere]

Just think of Chinese nationalism like in Command and Conquer: Generals.

If you research Nationalism and get 5 or more chinese togethr, each one gets a +5 bonus in combat.

Now, imagine the bonus you get with 1.5 billion of them!

"Nationalism will bring us Victory!"

[Kaziel]

The vast majority of the people in Japan weren't even alive during World War II, and I am almost sure the people who were making the decisions during that time are dead. Asking for reparations now, is like giving the death sentence to the grandson of famous serial killer. To me, it's just the governments of the nations in question looking for a source of money that they don't have to give anything for.

But they'll still whine about being the first and only country to have been A-bombed, pretty liberally actually.But what do they gain by doing that? By my understanding, they aren't asking for money for it. Merely using it as grounds for worldwide disarment, which is a whole 'nother conversation.

[TheLostProphet]

On that UK thing, yeah, he's right, we never learn anything about America. I'm not too sure whether it's a question of pride, but our history is mainly focused on 'important' things, such as Egypt and the Roman Empire in primary school, Britain through 1066-1900 in the first half of high school, then a very detalied examination of the 20th Century. Sure, I would've preferred to go over US history briefly, but that's what I've got you guys for ;)

I heard that America only ever does US History in their classes? How can you make it last for an entire education period? And wouldn't it be better to diversify a little? That's if I'm right at all...

So can someone explain briefly how British people colonised and then eventually revolted against England? A friend in Virginia did once, but she just made it worse for the rebels :p

My understanding is that colonists invaded and killed many Native Americans through weapons of war and funky new diseases. Then after a while they decided they could do one better and thought against their brothers and stuff in the Old Country.

I'm smart enough to know this isn't the full story, but as Az once said, it does seem like "those ungrateful little punks startin shit" XDDDD

===

Back on topic, I think Japan should start by teaching their kids an impartial view of what happened. Like other have said, if only this could be done in all parts of the world, but I know we're taught to always look at the source and criticise it. At least then when the children have grown up there would be a greater feeling of reconciliation and whatnot.

I also don't think Koi-RichardGere-zumi should continue to visit the Yasukuni shrine. I understand the importance of commemorating those who gave their lives for their country, but those who revelled in bloodshed and the misery of less 'superior' nationalities? Hmm, perhaps not.

I've also always wondered why isn't Germany hated by France and surrounding countries? Apart from their acknowledgement of the Nazi's war crimes, apparently the EU helped a lot. It made the countries rely on one another and slowly become friends, so war would now be unthinkable. Perhaps Asia needs a similar economic partnership?

[General_Admission]

On that UK thing, yeah, he's right, we never learn anything about America. I'm not too sure whether it's a question of pride, but our history is mainly focused on 'important' things, such as Egypt and the Roman Empire in primary school, Britain through 1066-1900 in the first half of high school, then a very detalied examination of the 20th Century. Sure, I would've preferred to go over US history briefly, but that's what I've got you guys for ;)

I heard that America only ever does US History in their classes? How can you make it last for an entire education period? And wouldn't it be better to diversify a little? That's if I'm right at all...

So can someone explain briefly how British people colonised and then eventually revolted against England? A friend in Virginia did once, but she just made it worse for the rebels :p

My understanding is that colonists invaded and killed many Native Americans through weapons of war and funky new diseases. Then after a while they decided they could do one better and thought against their brothers and stuff in the Old Country.

I'm smart enough to know this isn't the full story, but as Az once said, it does seem like "those ungrateful little punks startin shit" XDDDD

===

Back on topic, I think Japan should start by teaching their kids an impartial view of what happened. Like other have said, if only this could be done in all parts of the world, but I know we're taught to always look at the source and criticise it. At least then when the children have grown up there would be a greater feeling of reconciliation and whatnot.

I also don't think Koi-RichardGere-zumi should continue to visit the Yasukuni shrine. I understand the importance of commemorating those who gave their lives for their country, but those who revelled in bloodshed and the misery of less 'superior' nationalities? Hmm, perhaps not.

I've also always wondered why isn't Germany hated by France and surrounding countries? Apart from their acknowledgement of the Nazi's war crimes, apparently the EU helped a lot. It made the countries rely on one another and slowly become friends, so war would now be unthinkable. Perhaps Asia needs a similar economic partnership?

Don't ask people here about US histroy. They prob know crap about US history besides basic info, which does not give the true story.

Buy this:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0878913327/qid=1124122603/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-8923167-2440133?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Summarizes US history very well. I used it for my APUSH class.

If you can find one w/o software buy it & save a few bucks. The software is just test questions that they already have in the book.

[General_Admission]

^ god...just looking at that book makes me sick...remembering how hard those timed tests & DBQ's were.

[Kustom]

Right now Japan is supressing all military thoughts & ideas from it's people. It should stay that way.

I've read the entire topic and feel like saying many things, but at least I can't let that go...

You gotta be joking.

All that Japan has been doing since the conservative upsurge in the 80s-90s is push for the return of its military power. There are good and bad reasons for this but it's a fact. Koizumi wants exactly that and it's no mystery. The so-called self-defense force keep expanding, buying more and more offensive weapons, pushing to be part of international conflicts (Irak is to mark their comeback in non-UN conflicts). Sooner or later they'll get a permanent seat on the UN council and then nothing will stop them from getting back their army.

Many nationalist people born after the war think this is only normal (before you agree with that, they're the same guys that stubornly deny that Japan was involved in war crimes, or that recently pushed for the birthday of Hirohito to replace "green day" as a holiday... Surprisingly the WW2 veterans I met were all much more honest and sensitive about those issues). You can feel the nationalist push in Koizumi's crowd pretty easily and every week some piece of news comes to confirm that course...

I once read an Asahi Shinbun article about an initiative to promote the SDF in primary schools... Instead of showing friendly grunts doing push ups on a sand beach, it was actually a roleplay... A nice, peaceful island called "Sakura" or crap like that was under attack by a bad rogue state called, I forgot, (maybe Kimchi ?) with nuclear weapons... Giant robots were also thrown in for good measure (hey, this is Japan). Then, the kids were made to brainstorm for an adequate preventive measure against the big bad rogue state... And of course always came up with the idea of a powerful Self-Defense-Force to go and kick the bad guys ass... Now propaganda exists everywhere but I doubt Marines come to primary schools to advertise for their corps (perhaps they will soon, though, if recruiting problems continue :p ...)

I'm a political science and hitory major, so I'm really interested into the issue of memory and how it's dealt with in Japan (or more aptly put, not dealt with). If anybody is at all interested in that topic, I advise you to read "The wages of guilt" by Ian Buruma (findable in Japan)... A damn good book that compares the situation in Germany and in Japan and makes for a very good reading. It actually challenges the common idea that the German are dealing so well with memory (but certainly better than Japan).

It doesn't concern me that China and Korea are always asking for more (China is not a democracy and shouldn't be a model for anyone - Korea is not actually asking for more money, which it actually already received, but for more recognition of Japan's crimes in Japan and less diplomatic faux-pas). Japan aspires to become a full-scale world power, given its history it should demonstrate some exceptionnal sense of responsibility that Korea might lack (no one can stop China from being a superpower now...).

The textbook issue is not an issue really, since it's only a couple of textbooks that have been portraying Japan in a positive light in the Asian war, and they are only used in very few super-conservative schools. It is merely of symbol of something else ; the average Japanese born after WW2 has no sense that Japan did something wrong... Read it again, it is true, I see it every day and you're welcome to conduct your own surveys... You just can't compare that to the average British or French who is aware since school about crimes commited in the colonies (not talking about American colonies, of course. That was 200 years ago so unlike WW2 it doesn't impact the world much now), or American about crimes like slavery and massacres of Native Americans, for instance.

What makes me think it is different? Well, for one, a lot of people are still pushing for Japan to get back its military power and change the constitution to unban war, even though few people actually know what they'd do after that. A few hardliners I came across even want Japan to get the H-bomb (which would be quite easy).

Now, I don't know about you, but I'd much rather trust the German with an army (or the bomb) now than the Japanese. For several reasons:

- The Germans actually reflected on their mistakes, and A LOT... Good luck finding a Japanese scholar who did reseaarch about Japanese crimes during WW2. The rape of Nanking was published by a Chinese American and denied for years by Japanese scholars and officials. As a matter of fact it still sometimes is, and on national TV...
- The Germans have become a pacifist nation which hold war in contempt, while Japan retains an unhealthy fascination for the warrior spirit, if not for (atomic) war itself
- Germany is a true democracy with responsible leaders on the international stage, not discarding treaties when they don't suit them and using kindergarten logic when dealing with rivals (Koizumi initially refused to give up on Yasukuni, because "the Chinese want me to, I won't let them bully Japan")
- The crowd that led Japan into WW2 was pretty much left in power afterwards to prevent Japan from becoming red... They pretty much shaped the ideology of modern politicians and grew up to become more nationalistic than their fathers, having never lived through the horrors of war
- Germany is not located on a geopolitical minefield

I'm finished... Once again sorry for the looong post...

[Ichisan]

I think China and Korea, other Asian countries, and perhaps certain people in the West too, would like to see expressions of sincere remorse from the Japanese Prime Minister and Japan in general along the lines of the soul-searching and agonising the Germans have gone and even continue to go through. Would it be unthinkable for Japanese to go on their knees and weep for no matter what reason?


Well it will probably never happen.

[General_Admission]

*snip*

wow. Great post. Next time I go to a book store I'll look for that book & pirate it to see if I want to buy it.

About the marines bugging kids. I'm a senior in highschool. I got a packet in the mail about the marines last year in which they would give you a free jacket and a really nice beanie just for signing up for 'more information.' Boy was I dumb. I do not come from a poor family, heck my family is upper middle class, yet these marine guys are after me. They actually come to my high school and pull me out of class to see them so they can be 'my buddy' and give me slews of propaganda. They call me about every week. I have told them repeatedly that I

1) have college expenses taken care of
2) Do not want to die for oil
3) that the recruiter should just quit (you see, he has to make a certain quota or else he himself is shipped out).

Finally after telling this one guy off (he hangs around my school, I shit you not!) very strongly he has stopped bugging me. Haven't heard from him in like 2 months! :D

General Admission: 1
US Marines: 0

(and yes, I have adapted Az's style somewhat :cool: )

[KujiInRetsu]

Unit 731- The Japanese Bio-Warfare Division of World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731), who were further responsible for, in conjuction with Unit 1644, the Nanking Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre).

Tell me that's not sick and inhuman. The Japanese got it all blown back in their faces with the explosions at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, called by some, "blinding lights of vengeance, returning some of the pestilence brought on China". Kinda makes some perverse sense, describing the Atomic Bombs that way.

I believe the Japanese haven't apologized enough, but the time for those apologies has passed already. They should've paid reparations as soon as their economy hit that record high-- after all, they had the money to. Now, it's just too late. They can apologize all they want, but it's not likely that China and Korea will forgive them easily. In turn, it's been 60 years since the end of the war, and if we hang on to issues like these, it simply leads to ill will between parties.

[Iekleane]

Yeah it is just so nice that the high schools in America have become recruiting grounds. My old school would have recruiters from the different branches of the army show up every few weeks.

[Kusoyaro]

Tangent: I'm from ther UK, originally, and was taught British historyto about where the Celts came into the euros, so thats pretty far back. blah, i foudn it difficult to endure the tedium that was an eternal presence during canadian history, i swear that class should have taken a month at most to master.

[TheLostProphet]

wow. Great post. Next time I go to a book store I'll look for that book & pirate it to see if I want to buy it.

Yeah, it was truly enlightening. Not to sound like a suck up, but Kustom would do well as a political advisor :)

Oh, and GA, glad to hear you can see propaganda for what it is. I knew I was doing the right thing allying our two users :D

Yes, we're allies now

[Dead Sexy Vocab]

China and Korea (North) are whining, 'cause they can't let go of the past.

And, because they're commies.

[Marblehead]

Insta-cure for chronic-recruiter inflamation:

The military is filled with homophobics. Tell them your gay and you think they're cute (if they're the same sex).

[Pierrot le Fou]

The problem with the apologies by Prime Ministers and the like in Japan is that they come infrequently, and are surrounded by outbursts by people like Ishihara (governor of Tokyo) speaking about how God-awful foreigners are, as well as Nationalists who speak about how important an independent Japan with an army is.

And the Prime Ministers don't shout down those comments when they're made.

When people in the US say something stupid and bigoted (and it happens a lot), there will be 40 politicians jumping up and down screaming it down and talking about how it's this God-awful thing. In Japan, someone states that if there's an earthquake in Tokyo, that the Koreans may be looting and lighting fires, and nobody says, "You're a cock-sucker Mr. Ishihara" for some reason.

So we have apologies, surrounded by things that make tensions WORSE, but nobody apologizes or even comments on those things. And that makes it hard to take the apologies, considering the environment that those apologies are given in.

I don't blame Koizumi, and I can't believe that there are people who are trying to blame him. He's just called a general election because members of his own party (LDP - Liberal Democratic Party) didn't vote the party line on Post Office Privatization (which has a chance to really reform the Japanese economy). Those who didn't vote with him have been kicked out of the party.

That takes balls.

Koizumi is a reformer in a country where reform is a function of necessity alone. He is reforming for no other reason than that Japan sucks royal arse right now, and he knows it, and the world knows it, but nobody else is willing to do anything about it. I can forgive a visit to Yasukuni or two, for the sake of economic reforms, but I hope that with his reforms come more changes with international relations in the Pacific Rim.

[hanacker]

I was talking to my girlfriend (who's from Japan) about this at lunch today and she said some interesting things. They weren't taught about anything specificaly bad Japan did in WW2 (raping civilians, etc.) in high school. I told her that it wasn't unusual for Japanese soldiers to capture women to use as sex slaves and she hadn't heard of that. She did say that her teacher had told her class (although it wasn't in the textbook) that American soldiers would rape Japanese citizens after the war, during the occupation so it wasn't surprising to her that Japanese soldiers would do the same.

She also said that politicians probably didn't want to talk about the bad things Japan did because it would make people respect Japan less and not feel national pride. I definitely agree with that but don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

Anyway, I do think that Japan needs to do a better job of admitting internally what they did during WW2, but I think they've apologized to other countries enough. It's difficult to admit when your country does wrong, though, and America has only begun doing so relatively recently. And even so, you have a backlash from citizens who say that America has become a nation that tries to put too much blame on itself and doesn't focus enough on the good the country's done (I don't agree with that personally, but it's not a fringe opinion, especially among conservatives).

[Pierrot le Fou]

No offense, but your girlfriend sounds like an idiot...

I haven't met a single Japanese person who didn't know about the rape of Nanking in SOME form, either through outright denying it happened (which suggests that they know that people are stating Japan did something bad), to arguing over how many people died, and as to the reason. But never anyone who said, "Nanking? What's that?" and had total ignorance of the 'incident.'

The Japanese are really good, in general, at entirely ignoring one half of an issue in favour of focusing on the stuff that they feel is a stronger point for the Japanese.

Take this issue. The Japanese feel like they've apologized 60,000 times while ignoring the fact that they also did some really crappy stuff, and continue to do some pretty crappy stuff towards other Asians. The apologizes also tend to be pretty vague, rather than directly acknowledging the specific wrongs that people take issue with, and that tends to make them less palatable to the rest of Asia.

If you think the US has only relatively recently owned up to its wrongs, then you have a pretty warped opinion of what the status quo is on this issue across the globe...

[our_soviet_love]

I, for one, am still waiting for the Turks to apologize to Aremenia.

Or at least admit that they fucking did it and that the Armenians weren't fucking agressors, like they've fucking said EVERY TIME someone has confronted them.)

(Sorry, I'm just REALLY pissed about that bit of history no one ever fucking mentions.)

[hanacker]

No offense, but your girlfriend sounds like an idiot...

I don't know how you can say that without meaning offense, but it's certainly possible. Either that or she had a really bad history teacher. Or skipped class that day.

If you think the US has only relatively recently owned up to its wrongs, then you have a pretty warped opinion of what the status quo is on this issue across the globe...

Relatively meaning within the last fifty years. Or were text books back then not as jingoistic as I've been lead to believe?

[Nachosamurai]

I don't know what you guys think, but the people demanding money for compensation are *right on*. For one thing, when someone gives out money from their own pocket to recompensate for wrong-doing, it is a visual declaration of pennance. An apology costs nothing, and only the person apologizing knows if its sincere or not. Giving away money, while still not guaranteeing sincerity, still has a certain "putting forth effort to make things right" quality.

Secondly, I don't know what its like in other countries, but in America, if you get fucked by someone, you get financially recompensated. If you get injured on a job due to negligence, you get money. If a pizza delivery guy runs over your daughter and she has to have a leg amputated, she gets money. People pay for what they do wrong, its called justice.

Lastly, when you have to give out money, its in essence "hurting" you. Money that could otherwise be used for needs or wants is instead being given for someone else to use for their own needs or wants. This is in a small way compensating for the wrong-doing that was originally committed, and in my opinion Japan is long overdue for some payouts. Especially to those poor "comfort girls" who can't even get a Japanese court to recognize their grievance.

I admire and respect a lot of Japanese culture, but their inability to come to terms with past wrong-doings is not one of them.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Textbooks have always been, are currently, and will most likely always be jingoistic so long as the state tends to be in charge of education. I am talking about general attitudes. Pushing of suffrage for women, equal rights regardless of sex, pushes towards equality of the races, etc. The textbooks may have been gung-ho US, but that doesn't mean that the Americans weren't actually making substantive changes to the fundamentals of our treatment of citizens at the same time.

The Japanese on the other hand apologize for comfort women, while still discriminating against their descendents at home. They apologize to the Koreans while the governor of Tokyo makes laws targetting foreigners more strict.

Worlds of difference, and it has little to do with what's written in a textbook.

[hanacker]

I don't know what you guys think, but the people demanding money for compensation are *right on*. For one thing, when someone gives out money from their own pocket to recompensate for wrong-doing, it is a visual declaration of pennance. An apology costs nothing, and only the person apologizing knows if its sincere or not. Giving away money, while still not guaranteeing sincerity, still has a certain "putting forth effort to make things right" quality.


Japan paid out reparations in the 1950s to the countries it had occupied. In theory, any individual who was damaged by Japan should have gotten money from their own government at the time. Money has been paid in an amount that was satisfactory to the international community.

[Kustom]

Yes, I don't think money or textbooks or apologies is the big issue here... The problem is the inability to use self-restraint in Japan concerning those events. Tomorrow on national TV, any self-proclaimed expert can come and boast about how Japan brought the light of civilisation to Asia or how the Americans were really responsible for WW2 and the Japanese were only the victims. Those attempts to whitewash history are left unchallenged, and it happens on a weekly basis...

What bothers me is that no matter what a country hides, usually as time pass people get a better understanding of what happened and learn more and more about those events. If the American administration is doing a lot of fucked-up things, you might not know it all now, but you can rest assured that 10 or 20 years from now, everyone, including the American, will know about it. Same goes for genocides, wars, colonial crimes... The more time passes, the more those issues are researched and the more we know about what our forefathers did.

Same thing is simply happenin in reverse in Japan: the more time passes, the stronger the attempts to bury the past get and the more ignorant people seem to become. If anything, after the war much more was known and could have been known about Japanese war crimes than now. My gut feeling, as well as many Chinese and Korean I assume, is that Japanese apologies are not sincere (the new ones, not the original apologies in the 90s which took a lot of guts to make), only one more attempt to divert attention until everyone (or everyone in Japan) has buried the facts deep and forgotten about what they mean.

I think your girlfriend's idea that acknowledging mistakes would give a bad image of Japan is quite typical here... But what do you think of a country that refuses to acknowledge mistakes for fear of loosing some of its already sky-high self-esteem?

PS: Yeah, the genocide in Armenia is another issue of concern... But Turkey has a long way to go before it becomes as powerful as Japan now is, and I don't judge those countries by the same standards.

[kiev33]

Is it just me? I feel that the atomic bomb was jsut that, a bomb. Yes, it caused many more deaths all at once than a regular bomb would, but it was still a bomb, not in and of itself morally evil.

We dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to force Japan to end a war which had killed million sall over the world, and promised to continue to kill thousands, possibly millions, more.

Keep in mind this is a war that Japan started. Along with Germany and Italy.

Keep in mind, that while we were fighting against an enemy, the Japanese were busy usign our soldiers and civilians that they captured as human subjects in medical and scientific experiments and subjecting other prisoners to cruelty and depravity.

Putting aside the differences in culture, which readily explain their complete disregard for other human life, especially those captured in battle, doesn't this seem more "horrible" than droppping an atomic bomb on an enemy?

I mean, we can talk all day long about the horror and how bad it was to do certain things, but, I understand that in war, bad things happen. I think the degree to which bad things happen though, contributes to how people percieve your nation. See that many nations and people all over the world still respect the USA, and are protesting against Japan for past atrocities, and you might understand this.

Kevin

[kiev33]

2. Are Koreans garlic eaters?

is anyone familiar with Eric Van Lustbader and Marc olden(both of whom are acclaimed authors of oriental thrillers)? Both these authors stated clearly in at least 3 of there novels that Koreans are garlic eaters, out of all the characteristics one could say about koreans how come they only emphasize on the garlic-eating part?. In one book it clearly stated that "Koreans were the garlic eaters," and another one "the korean soldier reaked of garlic." etc.

One day I approached a korean in one of my classes and asked him bluntly if he liked garlic, he said no, but it's a big thing in korean, alot of people in his family like garlic. interesting.

What they were talking about is kimchi, which every soldier I served with hates with a passion. It is one of the worst smelling (to us) foods, ever made, and the Koreans eat it with everything. Just a cultural thing, but it has garlic in it.

Kevin

[kiev33]

Oh, and please don't misconstrue my remarks as Japan bashing. I have a healthy respect for any culture that can do what they have done since WWII.

Kevin

[Pierrot le Fou]

Kimchi is the nectar of the Gods. Unrelated to Japanese apologies, but related to Korean contributions to the palette of the world.

[tm23]

Sorry for the long post...

During the massive anti-Japan demonstrations in China (which many analysts saw as an internal Chinese political fight, with one side using Japan as bait), many Japanese started openly asking why they were still providing ODA (Overseas Development Aid) to China, considering the direction that the Chinese economy is heading and how much Japanese investment (public and private) was involved in China's growth. Is this ODA money a form of reparations that Japan is continuing to pay to China? At any rate, the rumors were that Japanese officials communicated to their Chinese counterparts that they were considering getting rid of the ODA to China if the protests didn't stop. The large scale protests stopped.

In Japan, August 15 (V-J day for us) is referred to as the day the war ended. Not, say, "the day we lost the war" although those of my grandmother's generation certainly understood they had definitely lost. My wife asked me if the end of the Vietnam war was referred to in that fashion here in the US, but I replied that the "Fall of Saigon" doesn't have any positive connotations to it. It clearly indicates we lost Vietnam.

My parents, who were children when the war ended, learned nothing about WW2 in school, except that Japan had been nuked twice. My wife learned a bit more, but nothing of the atrocities committed in China and Korea (which she learned when she went to college in the US). I think that this is what is most galling, that the curriculum crafted by right-wing nuts continues to paint Japan as the victim in the war. The Japanese people certainly suffered once we cut off their trade routes and started bombing their cities back to the stone age. But that suffering is being parlayed into being a victim in the war. It's completely wrong, as anyone who has been educated outside of Japan understands. However, sadly, the strategy of the nationalistic morons who run the Ministry of Education is working: Other right wingers can go on national TV or are interviewed in major magazines and make statements like, "Nanking is fiction" (Shintaro Ishihara), and the Japanese people don't object or question it since they've been taught some skewed version of that era. "History is written by the victors"? Not in this case, not for Japan.

But why are the history textbooks like this? Why do politicians (not just Koizumi) flock to Yasukuni Shrine? Because the LDP, the ruling party in Japan, has many nationalistic factions made up of folks who make Ishihara seem contrite by comparison. They are people who still believe that the only thing Japan did wrong in the war was to surrender. These people hold the LDP by the balls, since they are a sizeable part of the party's conservative base. (This is somewhat our (USA) fault since we wanted to ensure that Japan would be a strong anti-communist state during the Cold War)

From what I hear (from a friend who visited Hiroshima's A-bomb museum), the version of events of how WW2 unfolded is the standard party line whether you are at Yasukuni or Hiroshima. Near my grandmother's house in Kawasaki there's a little permanent exhibit in a "peace park" that attempts to simulate what it's like to be bombed (conventionally, not nuclearly). It seems to be an example of how Japan on one hand attempts to portray itself has a nation that only wants peace (indeed, this is one of the major promises that the LDP has campaigned on in the past), but on the other, attempts to reinforce the wrong idea that the suffering of the people during the war is equivalent to being the victim in that war. In a somewhat similar manner, things we take for granted as being part and parcel of American life, such as flying the flag, or singing the national anthem are verboten in Japan, since for many, they have too much of a nationalistic connotation (my wife was forbidden to play the national anthem on the piano by her parents for that reason). Yet at the same time, the presence of black vans with the old imperial navy flag and loudspeakers playing the Japanese national anthem are tolerated.

I know there are a lot of comparisons between Japan and Germany and how each has approached reconciliation and contrition. Germany certainly has done far, far more, although it still took lawsuits to force German companies to pay reparations to slave workers. Germany's efforts are still light years ahead of what Japan has done, especially in regards to what they did educating Germans on the terrible atrocities they had committed. That said, for all that Germany has done, there are many Jews who will never forgive Germany.

[Jay]

I say it's more than enough. Mine not to commit the descendants of the people who commited those atrocities to the sword.

[kiev33]

Kimchi is the nectar of the Gods. Unrelated to Japanese apologies, but related to Korean contributions to the palette of the world.

I wish I could agree with such a lofty sentiment, but, alas, I cannot. Maybe my unrefined Western palate simply can't enjoy the aromatic flavor of kimchi. :)

Kevin

[Bruti]

Hi folks,

I think that it is false to assume that any of the countries concerned is absolutely right on the matter.

Japan most probably has a facet that the Japanese administration would not like outsiders to see. I don't have a reason to doubt those who described the differences between the 'idolised' image and the real face of Japan. I might as well believe the statement that Japan would try to omit the less pleasing details of its internal politics from the 'great picture'. Alright, let's admit it: every country has its own share of political pedophiles they are a bit ashamed to introduce on an international level. (Hungary seems to have a fair share of this kind of beasts-in-suit.) I just don't know how many of these aforementioned ultra-conservatives are. Are they an important factor in interior politics, or something to be snickered at and monitored just in case?

The facts I know about Japan concerning this topic contradict: on the one hand, my Japanese penpal is well aware of the crimes the Japanese army committed. (Meanwhile, she hinted that she wouldn't mind if the Japanese government adopted a policy of reciprocity towards PRC.) On the other hand, a history/culture reference book which was half English, half Japanese (guess which part I got to read :D ) had an interesting gap in the timeline, the kind of gap that gobbles up unaware starship captains and, if left alone, chews a hole into the Universe. As far as I remember, in this alternative timeline, the 2nd World War started, ended, but somehow failed to happen. (The two nukes happened to fall, of course, illustrated with contemporary photographs.)

But, let's not forget that nothing unites a nation as well as a single external enemy whom it is reasonably safe to hate with all passion. And those who tend to bring up this whole topic on an international level are top dogs in People's Republic of China, AFAIK. Is there a benefit for Chinese leadership to avert people's eyes from internal problems and vent out some frustration? Hell yeah.

So I guess it's none of the concerned governments' real interest to inform people about the comprehensive facts.

To be frank, this clash of official statements -- and the ones before -- looks like a fight between blindfolded sumo wrestlers to me. On meth.

My elongated two cents.

Bye,
Bruti

[Dead Sexy Vocab]

Kimchi's the shit.

Sorry for going off topic.

[TygressVirgo]

Okay, Here's my two cents,

I agree with many of you that say that there needs to be a change in the way that history is taught in Japan and that their most recent apologies are not enough. I lived on Guam for the past four years. FOr those of you who do not know about Guam, it is a US territory that is three hours away from Japan by plane. It is very much like Hawaii, but with a little more island style. Because its so close to Japan, we recieve a lot of tourists over the years.

Anyways, on the island we just recently celebrated our libertaion day which is the day that we were liberated from Japanese occupation. I know that the things that happened in Guam, don't compare to those that happened in China and Korea, but they still happened and the feelings do linger. What's sad for me is that most people don't realise that this was American soil that was occupied by the Japanese. The Japanese people, towards the end of the war committed horrible acts that are still remembered today. The reason why I feel that a change needs to be made as to the teaching of history in Japan is because they don't want to be reminded about it. They don't want to know about it. There was an article that interviewed the Japanese tourists that visited the island during the liberation celebrations, their comments were very enlightening. They said that when they visisted the island, they didn't want to be reminded or even know about what happened during the war. This kinda implies that a change needs to be made.

In addition, the posts that talk of how nationlistic Japan is makes me worry about the future of that country. Nationlism is only good in moderation. IMHO.

On the subject of history in general, I firmly believe that we as Americans know more about what horrors occured in our history. Just recently there was a six-part series on how the west was founded. It did not make light of the actrocties at all, and was quite moving. In our nation, there are many sources that one can find to take a look into the wrongs that this country has committed.

For those who would like to find books that given a more accurate account of American history, check these out:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=vi5exoDBLA&isbn=0684818868&itm=1
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=vi5exoDBLA&isbn=0895260476&itm=9
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?userid=vi5exoDBLA&pwb=1&ean=9780060528379

Thanks for reading my rather confused thoughts.

p.s. - I don't really care for kimchi myself, but I do like to use the base in salads.

[hanacker]

I read an interesting article on the emperor's visit to Saipan when I was in Guam. It said that the local residents were generally happy to have him visit and had mostly fond memories of the Japanese occupation. On the other hand, the Japanese residents who had lived there during WW2 were angry at Japan and the emperor because Japanese troops had lied to them about how horrible the American soldiers were and forced some of the citizens to commit suicide. The Korean residents were also still angry.

Edit: And I loves me some kimchi. The cucumber kind is also very good.

[Jancen]

I personally believe an appology is not enough. Don't get me wrong I do not think Japan owes either China or Korea any monitary token. Does money really easy the pain or are you just trying to line your pockets? Just as I felt that the US should never have made compensation for using nuclear weapons to end a long and bloody war. I know in Japanese culture saving face is everything. Even taking this into account Japan should not teach its revisionist history. They should learn to accept that yes durning this one period of time Japan was wrong and learn from it. It is so offencive to find that they are teaching their people that the invasion of China and Korea were to bring peace and order not to mention their claim that the US forced them to war. How the hell so? By what, not selling you recources to furthor you campaigne of terror against your neigbors? The appology is nice but without teaching the truth, then its really meaningless.

[TygressVirgo]

Hanacker,
Okay, Guam and Saipan are on to VERY opposite ends of the field when it came to occupation. Guam strongly supports the US, even back then. Saipan welcomed the Japanese. Very different feelings. And I've read that same article. Must of been back there at the same time. Interesting.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Hiroshima is not apologist about Japan's -- or more specifically Hiroshima's -- role in the war effort. There is a discussion, in the very first room, about all the roles that Hiroshima has played in the Asian theatre as a staging and launching ground, it discusses Nanking (though not in immense depth, it does mention it), and doesn't try to paint Hiroshima as a city of innocents.

A Japanese survivor was discussing things, in both English and Japanese, with the people who were going through that room, and when I was looking at the uniforms the Japanese were forced to wear, he said that life in Japan during that period was God-awful for the people. They were forced to eat this, wear that, and they had no freedom and couldn't speak out for fear of death. He said that he didn't blame the US for bombing Hiroshima as much as he blamed the Japanese government at the time.

There are plenty of decent right-minded individuals in Japan. It is not a vast right-wing conspiracy though it may resemble one at times...

[Y.T.]

Secondly, I don't know what its like in other countries, but in America, if you get fucked by someone, you get financially recompensated. If you get injured on a job due to negligence, you get money. If a pizza delivery guy runs over your daughter and she has to have a leg amputated, she gets money. People pay for what they do wrong, its called justice.
Well.. in our country.. we have lots of people whose chief thoughts
are about how to get something from nothing..
Scammers... and.. very ingenious...
In short, most people think that scamming is our
national sport. Someone has to pay.. and no one wants to.
You know how ingenious schemes people create to obtain money..
And we have Gypsies. Who, by all means, love to scam....
(though, maybe a third at max is ok)

I think what Japan needs is knowledge about their history.
Actually reading about what their troops did, why they did it,
how many people were snuffed, how much the Imperial Army
and Navy sucked at times, how they got owned by the US
on the cryptographic front.. the whole bit. Deny nothing.
Also the bits about women who were in Japanese
Army whorehouses.... and about how civilized were Japanese
soldiers at places like Nanjiing.
Yeah.. and the stuff about Banzai charges not working..
(they still are in the dark. All the people that found out are
at Yasukuni.. and somewhat incommunicado)
Especially that bit. War is not about dying... war is about killing.
En masse preferably. And that modern war is not about bravery,
but about being clever and creatively nasty assholes..
That modern war is about honor... it's about winning..
and that is not accomplished by ignoring the obvious
(something the Nips apparently love to do).
That's why Jews are the best fighters in the world...
(supposedly, the Jewish religion is about questioning
authority also. Not doing what you are told, but using
your brain...)
Also the bits about racism and hate in the Imperial Army..
and Navy.. also the bits that other people kind of object to
being beheaded because of some quaint idea of honor..
Also the thing about honesty.. and victory disease..
* and, that it's not a good idea to underestimate your
enemy. Especially the bit about natural resources...

Well.. they should also point out that the Japanese troops
shined during the Russo-Japanese war..
Reallly. Supposedly they commited no rape, fought bravely,
despite being seriously retarded in the height department.
(150-160 in height)

Some Hungarians still don't get it, that SLovakia is no longer
their province. They insist on calling it 'Felvídek' which is on
par with Brits refering to the US as 'the thirteen colonies'.
Well, they tried to destroy Slovaks as an ethnic and wanted
to destroy the language also in 1880-1910.. would have succeeded
given additional twenty-thirty years.

Nationalism is so boring...................... I mean.. how they always claim
to speak for all Slovaks/Hungarians.. Fuck them. And dragging
ancient history and pointless idiocies from the history books.
As they say.. patriotism is the first refuge of the scoundrel.

I kind of hope that all those nationalists sentiments are going to
dissolve, once people can study where they damn well please,
travel around the EU... I mean,,, they still make a fuss, even
though we are under the same state now.

I don't get it why they still prattle about Greater Hungary and so on..

[Kustom]

Great post, Tm23!

Bruti, of course all countries have nationalistic attitudes but you can't leave it at that and say Amercia and Japan are the same, for instance... Exceptions in America tend to be the norm in Japan...

As Pierrot mentionned before, even though America or any other country has crazy far right politicians who like to make revisionist statements, the rest of the politicians and the mass media immediately fall on them like a ton of bricks when they do... Now in Japan, this doesn't happen, and those far-right people are really not far from the center stage of Japanese politics either... The governor of Tokyo is one of them, and many an adviser of Koizumi... The LDP is full of righteous people born after the war who, even though they sometimes pay lip service to the victims of Japan imperialism, adamantly maintain that Japan wasn't responsible for the war and that the emperor had nothing to do with it.

Sure, this is not a large scale conspiracy, but I believe that because so few people in Japan dare challenge authority, a few politicians with an agenda can still do a lot more harm than elsewhere... Granted, I'd worry much more about the nationalists if I was living in China or North Korea, but who wants to use them as a benchmark?

I'll quote from that book I mentionned before, to illustrate how uncomfortable Japan still was about telling the truth about WW2:

"Nagasaki, Dec. 7, 1988
47th anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor
A communist party representative asked Mayor Motoshima Hitoshi a straightforward question: what about the emperor's war guilt?
Motoshima answered: "43 years have passed since the end of the war, and I think we have had enought chance to reflect on the nature of the war.From reading various accounts from abroad and having been a soldier myself, involved in military education, I do believe that the emperor bore responsibility for the war... I am not saying that the emperor alone was responsible. Many people were, myself included. But I do feel the present state of politics is abnormal. Any statement about the emperor becomes an emotional issue. Freedom of speech should not be limited by time or place. In a democracy we respect even those with opinions we don't share."

Dec. 8, 1988
Nagasaki city legislators and the LDP demand apologies from the Mayor and a retraction of his words.

Dec. 12, 1988
Mayor Motoshima says that having come this far, he cannot "betray his own heart"
He resigns from the LDP. His resignation is not accepted, he is dismissed instead.

Dec. 19, 1988
24 extreme right wing groups ride through Nagasaki on 30 loudspeaker trucks, screaming for Motoshima's death "as divine retribution". The LDP asks the prefectural governor to refuse any political cooperation with the Mayor. The governer agrees.

Dec. 21, 1988
62 right wing groups demonstrate in Nagasaki on 82 loudspeaker trucks, demanding the mayor's death

Dec. 24, 1988
13684 signatures in favor of the mayor are collected. In the meantime, Representatives of various conservative groups, including the office for Shinto shrines, call for an impeachment.

Jan 7, 1989
The showa emperor dies.

Jan 18, 1990
Mayor Motoshima is shot in the back by a right-wing extremist. Right wingers boast in the Japanese press that he received "divine punishment". He was without police protection despite numerous death threats, because LDP assemblymen had complained about the expense.

[Kustom]

And Kimchi ROCKS! (maybe it should have its own thread)

I don't know, maybe in Korea it gets boring but consider the case of Japan, where Kimchi is just about the only spicy food you can find in most supermarkets! If you love spicy food like I do and live in Japan, you gotta love kimchi!!! I like Japanese food, but sometimes I long for stuff with more taste...

And even back in France, I still stuff myself on kimchi whenever I get the chance...

[Pierrot le Fou]

Kimi ga yo wa / Chiyo ni yachiyo ni / Sazare ishi no / Iwao to nari te / Koke no musu made.

May the reign of the Emperor continue for a thousand, nay, eight thousand generations and for the eternity that it takes for small pebbles to grow into a great rock and become covered with moss.

This is the national anthem of Japan.

Teachers have been suspended, demoted, and docked pay because they refused to stand and sing the national anthem at graduation and entrance ceremonies in Tokyo. They cited freedom of speech. The government stated that they had an obligation to set a good example for their students.

Sound trucks regularly blare such things as, "Japan is for the Japanese, kick out all foreigners."

Japan has blatantly disregard the UN treaties for equal treatment regardless of race that they have signed, and the UN recently released a report on the blaring failures of Japan in that respect. The Japanese laws do not protect foreigners, referring only to 国民【こくみん】 kokumin or countrymen, which refers to Japanese nationals, not by passport, but by birth.

There are a whole lot of things that need to change in Japan, but aren't, and quite likely won't for a long long time. The apologies that are made are made in the context of those failings, and while the Koreans and Chinese aren't all exactly saints in this, they do have some valid grounds for complaints.

There have been several prime ministers who have apologized to Korea and China, specifically citing comfort women and the like, but they don't seem to be consistent with decrying the black trucks and ultra-nationalists at home when they make a statement. It's a sad state of affairs.

[Bruti]

Hi,

Zakalwe,

"Bah" and double "Bah".

The last part about the bravest and finest of Hungarian political idiocy was absolutely and inevitably necessary for this topic, right? :mad: (Anyway, what are we talking about here? Hungarians in the Slovak Republic, or Hungarians in the Republic or Hungary?)

Go ahead and tell me that the Slovak Republic has not got its share of this kind of bastard and I am really willing to ridicule you. ;)

The vast majority knows that mentioning Greater Hungary is badly outdated, has no reality, the only thing it's good for to make our neighbours watch us warily. I wonder though what kind of idiot it takes to put that damn Greater Hungary sticker on a car's trunk. Yeah, yeah. Trianon was a real sucker for us, and it happened to screw up Hungary's economy and transport big time (you gotta admit that), but hey, it's such a good excuse when a need for a good whining arises, even if it's getting a wee old.

Anyway. Back to the topic. Official history books will always be biased. To an extent. They will omit 'minor' or 'inappropriate' facts and will emphasise others. They will do this to instill a level of patriotism. (Without a selection of facts, one would need an unwieldy library building for history lessons.) Whether this is subtle or blatant, controlled or unchecked, is another question.

Scammers. Yeah, that is a common problem in ex-Communist states, I guess. (Recompensation? Mwuhahaha.) But they are everywhere and being lying, cheap scum has no connection to ethnicity. I watch my purse with everyone I don't know. Our greatest players on this field happen to have skin as fair as freshly fallen snow. So I would take care with statements like And we have Gypsies. Who, by all means, love to scam....

There are people out there who just love to misinterpret things...

Bye,
Bruti

[Arilou]

Some Hungarians still don't get it, that SLovakia is no longer

Hungarians have a SERIOUS chip on their shoulder, I guess being reduced to 1/3 your historical size tends to do that to a country... In the west people complained about Versailles, but that was nothing compared to Trianon. That said it *was* 85 years ago. Though when I think about it the poles are still whining about the 1600's....

Granted, I'd worry much more about the nationalists if I was living in China or North Korea, but who wants to use them as a benchmark?

Hehe, absolutely true :p I love when people (no matter where) excuse something by saying "Err... At least we're not as bad as China!"

That's about equivalent to say "At least it's not as wet as the ocean" or "at least it's not as hot as the sun."

The vast majority knows that mentioning Greater Hungary is badly outdated, has no reality, the only thing it's good for to make our neighbours watch us warily. I wonder though what kind of idiot it takes to put that damn Greater Hungary sticker on a car's trunk. Yeah, yeah. Trianon was a real sucker for us, and it happened to screw up Hungary's economy and transport big time (you gotta admit that), but hey, it's such a good excuse when a need for a good whining arises, even if it's getting a wee old.

Seriously, it's called "Eastern Europe". As someone put it, east of the Alps, what matters is how you've suffered: The more your nation suffered the more pride you have in it. Other people celebrate their victories, in the balkans you celebrate your defeats :p

[Ichisan]

Lastly, when you have to give out money, its in essence "hurting" you. Money that could otherwise be used for needs or wants is instead being given for someone else to use for their own needs or wants. This is in a small way compensating for the wrong-doing that was originally committed, and in my opinion Japan is long overdue for some payouts. Especially to those poor "comfort girls" who can't even get a Japanese court to recognize their grievance.


I don't know how much, if anything, Japan paid to China. And have they paid anything at all to all the POWs whose health they ruined? There was a lot of bitter feeling by British POWs back when the Queen visited the Japanese emperor.

The Japanese did pay reparations to Korea back during the Park Chung Hee dictatorship days (the 60s and 70s) so in a legal sense they cleared their obligations. However, it's only recently come out how much they actually paid and it turns out they drove quite a hard bargain, taking advantage of Korea's economic dire straits. The Korean government needed hard currency so badly they agreed to accept a comparatively small amount in return for waiving any future reparation claims *and* waiving the claims of comfort women on their behalf. They knew the Korean public would be outraged so it was kept secret until recently. It seems to me that, given the circumstances, the Japanese are still under a moral obligation especially to comfort women. But at least they recognised the Korean right to reparations in principle.

[Y.T.]

Anyway. Back to the topic. Official history books will always be biased. To an extent. They will omit 'minor' or 'inappropriate' facts and will emphasise others. They will do this to instill a level of patriotism. (Without a selection of facts, one would need an unwieldy library building for history lessons.) Whether this is subtle or blatant, controlled or unchecked, is another question.


Well, if the pupils had PDA history books, and large
, I mean huge history textbooks.. the people who would
want to dig in and check the background would be able
to do so, without needing a library building..
Consider that you can have 1gb of memory in
a PDA. That's a huge amount of text...

Besides, it's not out of the question that some kind of
external memory device might become a reality in the not
so distant future. Being able to process information
more efficiently would increase the ability to understand history.

[dibabear]

On the other hand, what I find to still be really shitty about the whole situation is the way Japan still glosses over it all. Your average Japanese person probably has no idea about the things that happened in China and Korea. Ask them about it, and they'd probably say something like "That was the past. Why can't we just let it go?" But they'll still whine about being the first and only country to have been A-bombed, pretty liberally actually.

Thoughts?

Germany has done much the same. A good friend of mine says that the period from 1933 until 1945 was pretty much passed over when he was in school. He's amazed when History Channel shows some war documentary. That said, there has been much more of it on TV here of late and that's a good thing if you ask me.

I think Japan needs to make certain it's citizens know the full story, same as Germany, lest history be repeated. As for China and Korea, some of that is IMHO just a quest for retribution rather than true compensation to the victims. I believe Japan should've settled the comfort women thing directly with the victims instead of glossing it over. Paying China and Korea off in general? Not so much.

[dibabear]

In my opinion, the Abombing of Japanese civilians was worse than whatever the fuck the Japanese did to Nankings civilians (but I can't really say i blame the Americans - they had a new technology, they used it, it wasn't really a moral decision at all, and if it was, blame Einstein)
My two cents

Making such comparisons is disingenuous to the innocent who died at Nanking, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and the German death camps. It's not like money or a penis where largest rules.

[dibabear]

I think the underlying problem is that the parties involved just don't like each other. As you can imagine, Japanese people don't really talk about China/Korea much, but from what little I've heard, Japanese people kind of think themselves to be the "superior" Asian nation. I don't know where/why the Chinese/Korean hate comes from, I can only guess it was passed down through the generations.

Until that problem is solved, no apologies or no revisions of textbooks is going to change things.

I agree. About the only thing Asians can agree on is that Japan sucks because of WWII which I find wholly unfair. Other than that, ask a Korean and they'll tell you that Korea is the "superior" nation. Same with China. Same with the Philippines.

The China/Korea/Japan thing goes back ages. Korea, in particular, has been the north Asian party bitch over the last 1500 years as the Hans invaded, then the Japanese, then the Chinese again, then the Japanese, then Korea reared up and with China invaded Japan and so on.

[dibabear]

Forgot to add...when I was in Korea the biggest insult (so I'm told) was for a man to tell another man that his mother had a bald pussy. And that this was a reference to having a Japanese somewhere in the Chosun woodpile. Whether that's true or not (the insult I mean) I don't know.

As for my personal tastes...nevermind. :p

[dibabear]

That's if I'm right at all...[/SIZE]


:D As I recall, and your mileage will vary as I'm a geezer and this was in the glacial period, out of 6 years of junior/senior high school I had 2.5 years of U.S. history. .5 years of civics, 1 year of world history, 1 year of world culture (China, Russia, Latin America, Europe) which was sort of a modern history. And last year we had social science (sociology, psychology and some other -ologies). Different schools and states have different programs.

[dibabear]

Snipped

Sorry to spam (at least that's what it looks like to me. Good thread though.)

I think your assessment of the Germans is pretty good. Though I'm American I've lived in Germany for years. They're hugely pacifist largely the result of having their asses handed to them in the European ground war. I've heard some rattling about Dresden and what an attrocity that was but mostly it's been "we brought it on ourselves".

One possible fallout of dropping A-bombs on Japan was that they didn't get the beating they would have had an invasion of the home islands occurred. I'm reasonably certain with the Soviets entering the game, based on what I've heard about the Soviet Army here during those days, Japan would have been much more humilated and defeated than it was.

As for Germans recognizing their crimes, yes and no. As a culture Germans tend more towards inflicting pain on themselves and so they're more easily convinced of the evilness of the Hitler era. Like Japan many of the post-war leaders/administrators were ex-Nazis and I think that lead to it not being taught in schools. Being naturally inquisitive, kids asked their grandparents questions and so the stories were passed on. Officially Germany has been much better at admitting it's guilt and not glossing over what happened the way Japan seems to.

There is an undercurrent of nationalism here still. Like a German once told me at a cocktail party some years ago: "I think it's good that the Americans are leaving. It's time for Germany to take it's rightful place on the world stage!" My reply was: "I couldn't agree more. I'm tired of paying to defend a healthy and wealthy Germany. And if Germany ever decides that it should once again lead that world stage we can very easily come back and kick your asses for a third time in 100 years. Hell we could even do it by remote control." Yeah well nobody ever said I was a diplomat.
:eek:

[Arilou]

As for Germans recognizing their crimes, yes and no. As a culture Germans tend more towards inflicting pain on themselves and so they're more easily convinced of the evilness of the Hitler era. Like Japan many of the post-war leaders/administrators were ex-Nazis and I think that lead to it not being taught in schools. Being naturally inquisitive, kids asked their grandparents questions and so the stories were passed on. Officially Germany has been much better at admitting it's guilt and not glossing over what happened the way Japan seems to.

Germany *do* teach their children about the war, trust me. (At least the Holocaust is given a pretty thorough examination, IIRC) Germans are very vigilant (some might say paranoid) about any far-right extremism.

[dibabear]

Germany *do* teach their children about the war, trust me. (At least the Holocaust is given a pretty thorough examination, IIRC) Germans are very vigilant (some might say paranoid) about any far-right extremism.

Not the Germany I live in. The nitty gritty details of the 1933 to 1945 period were/are avoided. Far-right extremism exists though it is not mainstream to the degree that it is in Japan. I recall hearing as recently as the 90's that Dachau was simply a training camp for staff sent to other KZ camps. No Jews died there, blah, blah, blah. They may have changed the tune since, not sure.

I wouldn't say they're paranoid since the right wing nuts are alive and well in the NPD and the Republikaner. Germany is a nation of laws and are more aware of the past than is Japan as a whole. The sad part for Japan is that the war generation are now mostly dead and those were the folks to learn the history from.

[Nachosamurai]

Is it just me? I feel that the atomic bomb was jsut that, a bomb. Yes, it caused many more deaths all at once than a regular bomb would, but it was still a bomb, not in and of itself morally evil.

We dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to force Japan to end a war which had killed million sall over the world, and promised to continue to kill thousands, possibly millions, more.

Keep in mind this is a war that Japan started. Along with Germany and Italy.

Keep in mind, that while we were fighting against an enemy, the Japanese were busy usign our soldiers and civilians that they captured as human subjects in medical and scientific experiments and subjecting other prisoners to cruelty and depravity.
Kevin

I snipped a bit at the end so as to try and make it a slightly less bulky quote, I don't think that it changed the gist of what the original poster was expressing. My response to this is, you're right about one thing, the A-Bomb was just a really really powerful bomb. As another poster said, there wasn't any moral decision that people had to make to use the bomb, it was a no-brainer to the people in charge that they should use it. And that's where I have a problem...

America and Britain made it their *written policy* to target civilians in this war. They made it policy to fire-bomb completely civilian-populated areas with no significance to the war effort; i.e. not industrial or military areas, purely residential areas. It was a strategic decision to leave Dresden almost completely untouched while they bombed the fuck out of other German cities, so that refugees would flee to Dresden. Once there was a sufficient concentration of civilians in Dresden, they went ahead and launched the largest civilian-targetted military operation in history, and the massacre that followed killed more innocents than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

Whatever a government is doing to prisoners, be it extermination or poor treatment or medical experiments, that is not a reason to target a country's civilian population. That is wholesale murder, and even if its for a "good cause" (which I believe there is no such thing as mass murder for a good cause, but for the sake of arguement), it should not be condoned. The enemy mistreated prisoners on a large scale. The enemy performed fucked up medical experiments on prisoners. The enemy engaged in the whole-sale slaughter of civilians. What sets apart the good guys from the bad guys, when the free-world democracies start doing equally atrocious acts against innocent civilians?

When the Western world started targetting civilians for mass-murder, I believe that we lost that moral edge that made WWII more than just a war of equally flawed ideologies.

[Arilou]

Not the Germany I live in. The nitty gritty details of the 1933 to 1945 period were/are avoided. Far-right extremism exists though it is not mainstream to the degree that it is in Japan. I recall hearing as recently as the 90's that Dachau was simply a training camp for staff sent to other KZ camps. No Jews died there, blah, blah, blah. They may have changed the tune since, not sure.

I wouldn't say they're paranoid since the right wing nuts are alive and well in the NPD and the Republikaner. Germany is a nation of laws and are more aware of the past than is Japan as a whole. The sad part for Japan is that the war generation are now mostly dead and those were the folks to learn the history from.

Germany has the piddly % of people who vote for the far-right extremists (the same number, roughly, who votes for the far-left extremists btw.) They do not have anywhere near the same problem as the french and italians do, or even the US (though the US flavour of extremism is slightly different and mitigated somewhat by the two-party system) Germany has some rather excessive laws prohibiting undemocratic activities (people belonging to "undemocratic" organizations are for example not allowed to hold government jobs), symbols, hate-speech etc. etc. (even moreso than other european countries) Of the germans I've met and spoken with none was particularly ignorant about WWII (though admittedly most were fuzzy on the actual details of the war itself, but most could do a reasonable outline of Hitler's rise to power and the Holocaust) What there *might* be however is a cetain fed-upness (new word!) by the younger germans with the connection between Germany and the war (it *is* rather obscene, in most situations where a german appears there will be some comment, usually off-handed, alluding to the war) At least younger people who had nothing to do with the actual events want to... not forget precisely, but just recall that there *are* other things to Germany than the period between 1914-1945.

The nitty gritty details of the 1933 to 1945 period were/are avoided.

To be fair that is only to be expected: Can you name the nitty-gritty details of the american genocide of the natives? Most people can't name the nitty-gritty details because, surprise, they're not that interested in history. Most germans has a pretty good *general* view of the situation though, and that's all that can be asked, realistically. It's up to us specialists to care about the details :p

I recall hearing as recently as the 90's that Dachau was simply a training camp for staff sent to other KZ camps. No Jews died there, blah, blah, blah. They may have changed the tune since, not sure.

Given that they, IIRC; have made the place a museum I sincerely doubt that.

[Marblehead]

Just a little side story I'd like to share.

Back in October of last year. I was in Frankfurt for a few days with some friends of mine. We were drinking( around 11am) in some bar in a fairly well to do area. We started talking to this old businessman. He was pretty well dressed and seem pretty normal and was about as drunk as we were.
About an hour passed an we made to leave. The businessman followed us outside to continue talking with us. One of the guys( not a friend of mine) was this pretty aryan looking guy with an Iron Eagle tattoo an his forearm. He showed it to the business. The buisiness looked at it, told the guy he was "one of the choosen ones" and proceeded to give us a "Heil Hitler" salute right in the middle of about a hundred people. :eek:

You could see the steam rising off the people that saw this happen. I could only tell my friends, "we need to get the hell out of here."

[Arilou]

Just a little side story I'd like to share.

Back in October of last year. I was in Frankfurt for a few days with some friends of mine. We were drinking( around 11am) in some bar in a fairly well to do area. We started talking to this old businessman. He was pretty well dressed and seem pretty normal and was about as drunk as we were.
About an hour passed an we made to leave. The businessman followed us outside to continue talking with us. One of the guys( not a friend of mine) was this pretty aryan looking guy with an Iron Eagle tattoo an his forearm. He showed it to the business. The buisiness looked at it, told the guy he was "one of the choosen ones" and proceeded to give us a "Heil Hitler" salute right in the middle of about a hundred people. :eek:

You could see the steam rising off the people that saw this happen. I could only tell my friends, "we need to get the hell out of here."

I have no idea about the situation/tone etc, but it could be that he was taking a piss at you :p

[Marblehead]

It could be; but it was in broad daylight, outside with dozens of people around. I'd think it would be more embarrassing( dangerous?) for him than us.

[Arilou]

Sorry, it seems I misread the situation. But damn, that's... weird as hell.

[Marblehead]

You're telling me. Normally I'd think he was just some crazy except that the place we were drinking at wasn't cheap. He was even buying us drinks. Also I tend to notice little things like his watch, shoes, tie, tie-clip, fingernails, belt. All of them were fairly nice. He wasn't just some loon in a cheap suit. He had money to be sure. He gave me his buisness card, but I lost it. I think he sold copiers or something. :confused:

[dibabear]

Given that they, IIRC; have made the place a museum I sincerely doubt that.

It used to be on the English tour. Or at least the tour guide would say that when asked. It was also on a documentary once. Yes it's a museum but the denial that mass murder happened on German soil is/was there.

I've run into various random weirdness as Marblehead has. And to be absolutely fair, this isn't the majority. Most of the folks I know who have survived those times and talk about it, talk quite bluntly about it. Still, there's that uneasy undercurrent. Again, not the same as Japan's post-war journey along de Nile but it's there.

[Arilou]

You're telling me. Normally I'd think he was just some crazy except that the place we were drinking at wasn't cheap. He was even buying us drinks. Also I tend to notice little things like his watch, shoes, tie, tie-clip, fingernails, belt. All of them were fairly nice. He wasn't just some loon in a cheap suit. He had money to be sure. He gave me his buisness card, but I lost it. I think he sold copiers or something. :confused:

As said, my first reaction would be that he was drunk and trying to be sarcastic/something like that with the guy with the eagle-tatoo. But yeah, sounds odd for a well-dressed businessman to do that.

Still, there's that uneasy undercurrent.

Oh, of course there is an uneasy undercurrent, it shows that they acknowledge they did something bad after all. Being uneasy about such things isn't really a problem: It's when you start to flat-out deny it (or even not know about it) things are getting problematic. Germans do not want to talk about the war, understandably, they lost, they did some terrible things and it was 50 years ago, those who rule today were kids when it happened, those who are young not even born, but they have all been dealing with the fact that Germany is now (thanks to Hollywood I guess...) linked to the War, no matter what. Most germans I've spoken with are more "*Sigh* we know we did bad, okay, can we please talk about something else?" than the outright denial and blank stares you get from many japanese.

[Y.T.]

Neonazi party are getting more and more important in the former
German Democratic Republic... unemployment is high there and
some people receptive for blaming their problems on foreigners....