Japanese v. Korean v. Chinese (multi-voting enabled) [Archive]

Frankey-eh

10-08-2005, 09:30 PM

Chinese, because it's economy is growing exponentially. They have the human resource, the geographic resource, and now, they're working towards an efficient system...

followed by Japanese, I guess. Japan has the technologies, and technology is growing too.

But... an Indian language might be up there somewhere... since India will also grow in human power and science. I know it will. All the smart people at my school are Indians... they're smarter than Chinese. And we are already one of THE smartest school in california.

Kustom

10-08-2005, 09:34 PM

Chinese is definitely going to become the language of business in no time; but it's hellishly hard to learn (prononciation, lack of kanas), and Chinese is not even one language anyway... Go for English, I'm sure the Chinese will pick it up much faster than the Japanese did (I mean didn't).

Oosutorariajin

10-08-2005, 09:46 PM

Ahh but there is always the desire to communicate with someone in there own language...

I started learning Mandarin 2 years ago and grammatically it is far easier than Japanese but pronunciation is harder it is almost like you need to detach everything you do to speak... all because you make a certain tone in what english would feel uncomfortable.

Japanese is good and what i am studying at uni. To be honest i enjoy both very much... the only difficulty is the characters
1 kanji is sometimes slightly different in meaning
2 I am learning simplified chinese so the characters are very different in some cases. less attractive more practical

Korean i have no idea about

Digression: isn't ironic that people pronounce pronunciation incorrect...

hanacker

10-08-2005, 10:03 PM

Depends what you mean by "future" and what you mean by "business". China is still quite a few years from having an economy anywhere near Japan's. For now business in China would focus mainly on mass market manufacturing and agriculture, while Japan would be more high-tech. China is hoping to diversify, though.

koku

10-08-2005, 10:08 PM

I have a bias in support of Japanese (and even moreso since I'm taking it for the same reason), but I think you'd have far less competition in the Chinese market. Since most people percieve it as harder (this is arguable but some would argue it's fairly simple once you get past the kanji and pronuncation), not many native english speakers will be fluent/near fluent in Mandarin or Cantonese.

With a language, I'd rather take the language that's adjacent to the culture I like and the environment I'd want to be in. That's one of the reasons I probably will not take Mandarin. I'd have to first convince myself I'm infatuated with China and it's culture before I can put away 4+years of my life to become fluent in the language(s).

Either way, with Chinese or Japanese you can make plenty of money if combined with business. As for Korean, I don't want to assume anything and I really don't know.

General_Admission

10-08-2005, 10:39 PM

It might help if I limit the type of business to international law. One of the reasons I'm not worried about learning a South Asian language is because the Indians are already educated by American, company owned universities rendering the need for South Asian skills useless. There is huge competition to get into these schools in India and only the best of the best get in. These are the people I will be doing business with and they will all speak near native English and get paid pennies to the dollar for what someone in America will do the same job for.

This leaves Japanese, Korean, and Chinese. I am not so sure about Chinese because companies have found that it is easier to teach the Chinese English and Western business customs than it is to teach Americans Chinese and Chinese business customs. However, if I am going to be doing international business law (maybe start a private firm that helps small businesses do business globally with Asia or the US) isn't it mandatory that I be able to read documents in their language or communicate at business meetings or try to get my name out to the average businessman who may have less than average English skills?

Invictus

10-09-2005, 12:20 AM

Most of the global analysts I read (Sovereign Society, Oxford Club, et. al.) believe that either Japan or China will be the next great power after the United States. I'm putting my money on Japan because China's Communism is an untenable system, and their economy all but dependent on the United States. (Not that Japan's economy isn't rather inextricably tied to the U.S. as well...)

Frankey-eh

10-09-2005, 12:42 AM

China isn't communist anymore though. (That's why you see so much corruption...>.>)

Japan just leech off others...most of the things they are famous for now originated somewhere else... like cars.

Invictus

10-09-2005, 12:48 AM

charrick

10-09-2005, 12:56 AM

China is growing by leaps and bounds and Japan has stagnated ever since 1990. Chinese is the language to learn if you are just looking at how much more the economies can grow. Also, China and Taiwan and some other countries all use at least some form of a Chinese language, with well over a billion speakers and growing while Japan has about 125 million speakers (10% of the population of Chinese areas) and the population is not growing.

However, I wonder if people choose between learning German or French just looking at possible future economic growth of those countries. I'd say that instead of merely looking at the economic potential (and Japan's probably maxed out while China has far to go), you should decide which culture you have more of an affinity to. You should be able to find a job to take advantage of your language abilities, no matter if you know Spanish, Chinese, Japanese, French, or German. So I'd advise you not just to look at the economic growth but also at what you yourself would prefer to learn. Find something you like and work from there. That should bring you more happiness in the long run.

Frankey-eh

10-09-2005, 01:06 AM

Maybe they do leech off of others, but they do it quite well, and improve on the original design.

Japan didn't invent the laptop, but I'm typing this message on a Toshiba Satellite...

Japan didn't invent the automobile, but the car I drive in the United States is an Isuzu...

Japan didn't invent animation, but look how far they've taken it...

Japan didn't invent the console, but Sony and Nintendo have been immensely successful with theirs...

Get the idea? They may not be *original,* but that doesn't mean they're not *creative.*

I know, I know... they take upon other's ideas and improve upon it. That's why the quality of Japanese products top-notch. Because they don't have to worry about taking chances with products that might fail.

But in the long-run, it's countries with originality that's going to last. Japan's dependent on other countries. China is independent. Heck, it's so independent it's gotten US on the edge of its seat. China is the long-awaited force that US can't suppress, to make it submit to its wills.

Think about it. What are the ways to bring down US? By sheer force, or by intellect. US is lacking in both. And China has both advantages. It has a quarter of the world population, and intellectually... well, you can just take a look at a typical American high school. Asian>US education-wise, no objections.

But Japan has neither. It's population is smaller than US's, and we all say water can only flow as high as its source. Japan's intellect will only go high as its source... or, not very high compare to China and US.

Frankey-eh

10-09-2005, 01:11 AM

However, I wonder if people choose between learning German or French just looking at possible future economic growth of those countries.

Not I. At my school, it was either French or Spanish, and I chose French simply because it sounded beautiful. Like water. It turned out the right choice too, because it's challenging. If I had taken Spanish, I wouldn't have gained much because Spanish pronounciation is similar to Japanese's. By taking French, I got extra training in speaking a range of accents. I went from Cantonese which is somewhat choppy and very slow, to Japanese, which is VERY choppy and a little faster, to English which is little smoother and very fast, to French which is VERY smooth and extremely fast.

NERD

10-09-2005, 02:20 AM

Though I'm taking Japanese right now, and am fluent in Korean/English, I'm not one of those people who take a certain language course just because such and such company will become big in economical terms. It's rather sad if a motivation on learning a language is to get a job imo.

Though I think a lot of people on this board took Japanese because they are japanophiles to start with. That would be me.

Kustom

10-09-2005, 10:51 AM

Kaji

10-09-2005, 10:58 AM

...and intellectually... well, you can just take a look at a typical American high school. Asian>US education-wise, no objections.

Depends on which part of Asia you're comparing to which part of America. Japanese schools through secondary education are fine, to be sure, but they have a reputation for one of the worst college systems out there because of the cultural view that a college student is in the one free period of his life, and everyone else owes it to the college students to let them enjoy that time, hence it's more about slacking off for four years as a break from high school studies before going into the workforce. A bit of an oversimplification, perhaps, but I've never encountered a case of a professor failing someone in a Japanese university. Hell, I know people who skipped all their classes and got Bs.

Regarding the Chinese, while I don't know anything about their universities in particular, I do find it quite fascinating that a full half of my school I'm taking my grad courses at is Chinese. The US attracts foreign students from all over the world, especially at its top institutions, because of the superior facilities and available instruction. There may be a number of stupid people in high school, but that doesn't guarantee that those who slacked off there will do poorly in college. Furthermore, as you said yourself, the quality and potential is based on the high water mark. Judging the high water mark based on the high schools is like marking a high tide at noon. It doesn't work.

Kaji

10-09-2005, 11:06 AM

International law, you said? Err, I really don't think Japanese or Chinese is suitable for that. Way too imprecise.

Up until recently, the language of international law was actually French. Why not English? Because English has some gramatical imprecisions that can be extremely damaging to clarity.

Take this example:
"Israel shall withdraw from occupied territories"

Now, does that mean "all occupied territories", or "some occupied territories"?
It is still debated to this day.

In French or German, it wouldn't be a problem, because grammar is very strict and the article would tell you the precise meaning.

But in Japanese, and as far as I know Chinese, there is no plural or singular, definite or indefinite, plenty of words/kanjis with double, triple meanings and a lot of things depending on the context/implications the writer makes. Much more confusing than English. It doesn't seem suited to resolve international disputes in an effective and precise manner

As you demonstrated with your English example, a language can be as precise or imprecise as you choose, you just have to take enough care to make sure of it, regardless of what language you're using.

Let's extend this discussion to address some of your points about Japanese. Plurals can be achieved by adding -tachi to inanimate objects (watashi-tachi), or adding -ra to the end of a noun (omae-ra, hon-ra), even if the latter is rarely used. Counters can serve this function as well if you want to name a specific amount (juu go hiki). The indefinite is default in Japanese ("Hon wa suki desu ka?"), but can easily be made definite with the use of a KoSoA word and a particle change ("Kono hon ga suki desu ka?"). Just because a culture relies on ambiguity does not by any means mean that the language is incapable of crystal clarity if used appropriately to achieve that end.

Kustom

10-09-2005, 11:17 AM

No it doesn't, but because it's not automatic it's very easy to let small details slip when writing hundred of pages of agreements (which is why the UN resolution quoted earlier was so badly worded, people should have paid attention but they didn't)

Of course any language is quite capable or expressing anything, but it takes a lot of fine-tuning before you can get a contract in Chinese that is not vague.

Kaji

10-09-2005, 11:23 AM

Seems we've pretty well come to a point of agreement here then, in that it's possible to reach that degree of clarity in any language, with due effort put into the process.

Antinomia

10-09-2005, 11:32 AM

Kustom, where are you from anyway? Since you Wrote that "In French or German, it wouldn't be a problem, because grammar is very strict and the article would tell you the precise meaning", i am curious if you know one of these languages, because i think the same kind of mistakes can also happen in German and French. (i am Dutch by the way, know German well enough and learned french at school as well)

Kustom

10-09-2005, 12:26 PM

Oh yeah, I'm not saying those are perfect (I speak French and studied German for 8 years, still hopeless). I happen to know how it works because international law was my field of study. What I'm saying is that as far as writing international law (the OP's point) and contracts is concerned, common practice is to choose a complex language grammar/vocabulary wise, because otherwise it complicates writing a great deal. IMO, this is one of the source of different practices regarding common and civil law in Europe.

The best and most complicated way to go is to actually write the law in several languages with approved translation (it doesn;t happen often). This is why the EU or the UN have several working languages (currently in the EU, English, German and French) and one way of solving disputes is to refer to all approved versions of one text.

In some languages, grammar obliges you to be very precise. It usually is a hindrance but comes in handy when wording contracts and laws, in which forcing you to be precise does help.

Take the following example. I leave home and I tell my girlfriend:
"Tomodachi ni aimasu"
In English, I am structurally obliged to give more info:
"I'm meeting a friend" (only one)
In French, I am again forced to give more info:
"Je rencontre une amie" (only one friend and she's a girl)

Guess which language I'd rather use to stay out of trouble?

Antinomia

10-09-2005, 01:47 PM

Not so difficult in Japanese or in English either, just add 1 or 2 words here and there and whatever sentence is understood perfectly:

"i'm meeting a female friend"

By the way, the point that the EU also use German and French is more because those countries still believe their language should have been the world language. I have been on vacation to France recently, and on the biggest trainstation where i needed to buy a ticket, only 2 of the 30 employees knew a little English (and i was thinking MY english sucks hard) In the south of France it's even worse... From the 8 hotels i have visited, only 2 they said things back in English.

theunraveler

10-09-2005, 02:13 PM

study chinese is the best

1) if ur into business, then u should know there is advantage being able to speak chinese when u conduct business with the next big economic player on the globe.

2) makes ur life easier if u learn japanese

3) its cool

Kustom

10-09-2005, 08:07 PM

By the way, the point that the EU also use German and French is more because those countries still believe their language should have been the world language.

Believe it or not it's not the whole truth there is to it, and it's especially unfair to the Germans who do not have such ambitions for their language... In fact most languages coming from Latin have such grammar rules and can be useful to write laws in. Now the Japanese use the Japanese language to write their laws in and do fine. The generally accepted practice in international law, however, has been to use other languages and I don't see how Chinese would become the language of international law any time soon, even in Asia.

Besides, I obviously chose this example because it demonstrated the superiority of Japanese in other contexts. How would I be so stupid as to tell my girlfriend I'm meeting a girl if I could avoid it? :D

General_Admission

10-10-2005, 03:05 AM

Thanks everyone for your input. Even though Chinese may be more useful business wise I have decided to go by what I would enjoy & since I don't like Chinese culture, lore, or myth and would never want to visit the country, I have decided to learn Japanese. I have dowloaded Pimsleur's Japanese 1 via a torrent. It's pretty fun, even if I do have to repeat lessons to make sure I get 100% of everything! ^^; I hope to purchase a college text book soon so I can study during lunch and after school in the library.

Oh and Kustom, I have also taken 3 years of Latin, which has helped me immensely on my SAT, AP English class, and science/medical high school classes.

General_Admission

10-10-2005, 03:40 AM

Also, reading back what yahoodood told me some time ago, later I will learn how to at least read Korean, because I would really like to visit Korea some day.

theunraveler

10-10-2005, 02:01 PM

I don't like Chinese culture, lore, or myth and would never want to visit the country, I have decided to learn Japanese.
i think u shld know that alot of the japanese culture, lore and myths are derived from chinese culture, lore and myth.

seijihuzz01

10-10-2005, 03:49 PM

1) Japanese is spoken in 1 country & not really anywhere else, but is an excellent choice for business, and is also relatively easy to learn if you can memorize vocab & grammatical patterns - no need to relearn how to talk.

2) Korean is spoken in 2 countries & not really anywhere else, and although business is ok there, it's corrupt & not going very far, esp once/if NK collapses & the South gets stuck w/the bill. Harder pronunciation than Japanese.

3) Chinese is spoken by 1 billion+ people in China, Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore, and the San Francisco Bay area :) Taking just a basic course will help w/learning Japanese Kanji if nothing else, and going further will help you communicate with 1/6 of the world's population. Generally accepted that China's headed for bigger things one way or another.

I'd recommend starting Chinese & Japanese at the same time if possible and figure out which one you like better. Even if you decide you hate Chinese, it'll help you learn Japanese. And if you like it, great, you're already started!

Nancy

10-10-2005, 06:18 PM

No asian languages would be best in business. The ONLY international languages are English and French.

Those would really help you.

Xenotrauma

10-10-2005, 06:44 PM

Based on what Nancy said, and a few days of thinking, I'm still glad I voted Chinese... basically for one major reason. I know a lot of native Japanese, and a lot of native Chinese, and from what I've studied about both countries it seems like you are -more- likely to run into a Chinese businessmen who doesn't speak English well than you are a Japanese businessman. This isn't some broad sweeping generalization... I'm -sure- there are plenty of Japanese businessmen whose English probably sucks, and I'm sure that there are tons of Chinese whose English is -great-, but Japan has a massive industrial AND cultural focus on English, while in China it seems like much more of the focus for English is on business use.

But yeah... to try to clarify the rambling: English is what you -need- for business. If you already have English, you are absolutely set on learning an East Asian language, and you want to choose the one to target the largest audience who -tend- to speak less English, Chinese ftw.

Pierrot le Fou

10-11-2005, 12:04 AM

Chinese by a mile. The Japanese economy is in the crapper, and will remain as such for at least another decade until this postal reform finally gets fully enacted. The Chinese economy is using the Japanese model, but seems to have seen the limitations and dangers of an under-valued currency and is making changes because of what happened to Japan in the 80's.

China is going to be in for the long-haul. Who cares if they're communist? Free trade will bring freedom with it, and the communists can't fight against 1.5 billion people who want a higher standard of living.

atomiton

10-11-2005, 05:28 PM

And when you Chinese, it means Mandarin.

Cantonese and other dialects are dying.

There is a Chinatown in every major city.
China is not "Tied" to the states.

Lots of Japanese and Koreans are learning it.

1.5 billion people.

Faumdano

10-11-2005, 06:09 PM

Cantonese seems to be alive and well in Canada from what I've seen. The mojority of the chinese speakers I know on campus (keep in mind that at my University a large portion of the students are of chinese ancestry) speak Cantonese, not Mandarin.

atomiton

10-11-2005, 06:20 PM

true enough... it is.. however, lots in hong kong are getting schooled in mandarin and many adults are learning mandarin too. in that sense it is quickly losing its signifigance as the "most" important chinese language... to the least important.

saying that most Chinatowns are Cantonese... but quickly accepting an influx of Mandarin.

kind of like how eventually the punjabi language will lose its importance as hindi speakers emigrate from india.

alansmithee

10-11-2005, 10:50 PM

I wouldn't be so quick to rush on the Chinese bandwagon. People have been saying how they will be the new economic power for the last 200 years. Despite their population and seeming growth at this time, it is just not sustainable. Much of the growth comes at the expense of the people, and not for their benefit. A lot of companies move their not because of innovation, but because of low costs of labor and lax pollution laws. And the Chinese gov't is more than happy to let them, because it enriches them. If and when the gov't falls, it will be horrible for business (assuming some sort of democracy takes over) because people will want higher living standards, which will raise labour costs and in turn cause many of the businesses that established there to leave in search of either cheaper labour, or return to their home countries to cut down shipping costs.

Chinese would be good to learn simply on the basis that not as many people in the west are studying it now, so you would have a skill that less people have. Also, I don't think English is as prevalent in China as it is in Japan, so there's another plus. But if you are worried about business communication, the best bet is still to make sure your English is top-notch.

Pierrot le Fou

10-12-2005, 01:29 AM

All Chinese citizens need to learn Mandarin. It's what they teach in the schools. While kids in Taiwan may have parents who speak Taiwanese at home, they learn Mandarin in the schools (though that has changed recently, for the most part it's true). Same with Hong Kong. Same for Tibet. Mandarin is the language that's going to turn into the business language of China, because every citizen can speak it (or has at least studied it).

And their economy is booming right now alan. We're not talking about hypotheticals, we're talking about the present day. Their economy is growing, daily, and assuming no Japan-type bubble popping (which there is no indication of and there are actually measures being taken to prevent), they will become a big time economic power in the next decade or two.

alansmithee

10-12-2005, 01:40 AM

I didn't say that their overall economy wasn't booming, but it isn't sustainable. For the growth of their economy, there should be better living standards, but there isn't. One of the problems is because they are communist, and nearly all economic gains are funneled into the gov't and don't translate into improved quality of living. They are already a big economic force, but it isn't a position they can easily sustain.