Why does Japan approve of rape games?

[Silent Dob]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/technology/4611161/Rapelay-virtual-rape-game-banned-by-Amazon.html



Rape games?

"We believe there is no problem with the software, which has cleared the domestic ratings of an ethics watchdog body."

WTF? So how does Japan's "ethic watchdog body" work?




1. "Hey, we got this hot new porn out which involves scat and bukkake."

Japanes Ratings people- "Suke! Passu!"


2. "Hey, we got this awesome new tentacle rape porn game out!"

Japanese Ratings people- "Suke! Passu!"


3. "Hey, we got this awesome new gangrape game out where you get together to rape a chick.... you're not worried about the negative influence it might have on people who play it, are you?"

Japanese Ratings people- "........

........


...


..


...



...


....


.................................



Suke! Passu!"



Seriously, is there anything Japan won't show?

They censor Fallout 3 and they ban an anime from tv because a couple of Korean people signed a petition complaining about a goofy Korean character in a comedy anime but rape games are a-ok? What's wrong with Japan?

[mikem]

WTF? So how does Japan's "ethic watchdog body" work?


Ethics Body Approval Process:

[ ] Did you properly mosaic all private parts?

If you checked at least one box above then your title is approved.

It's a PC game. There is no one in charge of regulating the content itself.

[Gorlam]

The japanese didn't censor fallout 3, those changes were made by Bethesda.

[Plekto]

You have to understand that in Japan, there is no history of religious oppression and puritanical scriptures that espouse a view that the human body is bad.

Never was. Not for thousands of years. That's a *European* ideology. A Christian one as well. What religion(s) are practiced in Japan? Right... You're getting the picture why it's inane to even talk about this as if it's something that's wrong. It may be wrong to your sensibilities because of the culture you grew up in, but to them, it's no different than how the Hindus have a prohibition on killing cows. Here in the U.S., it's completely not an issue one way or another except to that specific group. In Japan, this isn't an issue either other than to a small group who tend to be rather annoying, or at least that's what the average Japanese person feels.

In fact, it was only in the last few decades that the U.S. forced Japan to have any rules at all about any of it. So there's a lot of resentment and an attitude of "well, we'll do what the Gaijin tell us to do to the letter of the law but otherwise we'll do what we've always done since time began..."

[Jetsetlemming]

Plekto you're a fucking retard, for reason see mikem's post.

[SlickWilly440]

1. No trolling/attacks on other members. Name-calling, insults, and other such activity will result in a warning/ban. Personal attacks carried out through Private Messaging can also result in administrative action.

Plekto you're a fucking retard, for reason see mikem's post.

Hmm......something seems to add up here.....but I can't quite put my finger on it.

I agree with Plekto.

In the land of no rules/laws/morals nothing is good or bad, so everything that is considered good/bad can be traced back to the rules/laws/morals the groups/people/etc uphold/believe. This is no different than a culture viewing cannibalism as wrong, where the tribes that practice cannibalism see nothing wrong with such rituals.

[PopCulturePooka]

but the question being asked isn't so much to do with nudity/sex being ok or not ok and the wests puritanical views on such.

The question is, why is rape glorified in Japan in PC games, manga, anime and some porn?

I can't see how being offended by depicitions of rape and abuse = religious oppression and puritanical scriptures that espouse a view that the human body is bad.

[farstrider]

I'm of the opinion that rape is like murder, in that it's not something you have to be TAUGHT is wrong. Sure western conceptions of sex are clouded by religious beliefs, but rape is about violence and domination; so I'm not even sure where puritanical (buzzword of the day) issues about sex come into play with regards to this game.

[Kannon]

Put it this way; there is only one other thing that I am authorized the use of deadly force to stop other than murder/serious bodily harm, and that is rape. As in yes, if I see someone raping someone else, I will kill them (on or off duty).

[Digital Masta]

but the question being asked isn't so much to do with nudity/sex being ok or not ok and the wests puritanical views on such.

The question is, why is rape glorified in Japan in PC games, manga, anime and some porn?

I can't see how being offended by depicitions of rape and abuse = religious oppression and puritanical scriptures that espouse a view that the human body is bad.

^ This.

[SlickWilly440]

The question is, why is rape glorified in Japan in PC games, manga, anime and some porn?

It's glorified because rape sells. The typical Japanese man is tired of having to do all the work while the woman just lays there and takes it like a dead fish. The men needs some excitement, a woman who's got some movement and scream in her. That's why these raped themed merchandise sell! The more the woman resists the more they guy wants her; it's like playing hard to get...some.

Plus no one is getting hurt. It's like a GTA, violent movies, etc, they all provide a safe venue for the audience to view/carry out scenarios that are deemed inappropriate and harmful to society.

[Silent Dob]

But then you hear stories about "rape clubs" where guys get together to target women. I read once about a group of wealthy college kids doing this.


And why are the women like dead fish? What is wrong with Japan that they have so many over-the-top sexual perversions?

[MNJetter]

Suke!
what?

[japanat]

But then you hear stories about "rape clubs" where guys get together to target women. I read once about a group of wealthy college kids doing this.


And why are the women like dead fish? What is wrong with Japan that they have so many over-the-top sexual perversions?Take a look at these rape clubs and other groups, as well as most of the men who buy the rape porn, etc. Many of them are spoiled mama's boys; most are unable to relate to women on a full personal level, treating them as pets or lower-level people. When I first came to Japan, many men couldn't understand when I talked about previous bosses for whom I had great respect, because they were women.

The men I know who treat their wives/lady friends as partners seem equally disgusted by it.

Oh, and the word is either "Suge!" (fantastic) or "Suki!" (I love it), depending on what you're trying to say, but men wouldn't be saying suki.

[darighaz]

@ Plekto - In what country is rape OK?

@Slick - Yea, rape is totally fine and OK as long as you're not doing it in person. We all need to let out our inner rapists now and then, ya know.

You people are morons.

[koku]

what?
i think he meant suki "we like it! pass!"

I thought that was a weird mispelling too.

[SlickWilly440]

@ Plekto - In what country is rape OK?

@Slick - Yea, rape is totally fine and OK as long as you're not doing it in person. We all need to let out our inner rapists now and then, ya know.

You people are morons.

Why can't we just all keep an open mind about this? This is just a classic case of judging the book by it's cover. Just because a person plays this game doesn't mean they are going to go out and rape women, just like if a person plays GTA they are not going to go on a shooting spree.

[Plekto]

Why can't we just all keep an open mind about this? This is just a classic case of judging the book by it's cover. Just because a person plays this game doesn't mean they are going to go out and rape women, just like if a person plays GTA they are not going to go on a shooting spree.

Exactly. They don't see it as reality. There's no "OMG!" over-reaction like we have in The West. Part of this is because there never was the connection between thought and action being equivalent like in classical Roman Catholic morality. So there literally is no perceived need to do anything about it, either, in Japan. Art is Art. Magazines or games are whatever you make of them. Real life is a whole other thing. And yes, they do take that seriously.

A more rational question might be why do we see everything in the U.S. as a potential disaster? Can't show a little skin - that might cause a riot! Can't say the wrong thing! And on and on... That was part of my original reason for commenting like I did. Exactly why do people in The West feel that they have a right to get all upset about another culture's way of doing things.

edit:
Perhaps it's because every other week someone here seems to either come on and/or have enough desire to post something that they think is wrong with Japanese society.

[SlickWilly440]

A more rational question might be why do we see everything in the U.S. as a potential disaster? Can't show a little skin - that might cause a riot! Can't say the wrong thing! And on and on... That was part of my original reason for commenting like I did. Exactly why do people in The West feel that they have a right to get all upset about another culture's way of doing things.

I guess everything is seen as a potential disaster because the U.S. contains a huge mixture of cultures/ideas/etc and is not very uniform when compared to other countries like Japan which is somewhat more uniform. So if not careful, one thing can set off and offend a specific group of people.

Or maybe it's because of the media that is constantly telling us what is wrong and what is right that we immediately condemn something that fits into the category of what the media defines as wrong; instead of looking at the situation at a different perspective.

So because of the West having a mixture of cultures, they are exposed to the many differences in cultures, resulting in a higher probability of getting upset. So maybe they feel they have this right because they have been doing it for a long time and it's just how things are.

[MNJetter]

Exactly. They don't see it as reality. There's no "OMG!" over-reaction like we have in The West. Part of this is because there never was the connection between thought and action being equivalent like in classical Roman Catholic morality. So there literally is no perceived need to do anything about it, either, in Japan. Art is Art. Magazines or games are whatever you make of them. Real life is a whole other thing. And yes, they do take that seriously.
What does thought and action being equivalent have to do with classical RC, or any other sort of specific religious, morality? I mean, if asked what the two worst countries for censorship and thought-policing are right now, I would say China and North Korea, neither of which have anything to do with western religion.

[Plekto]

Ah. This gets to the basics of the concept of sin and right and wrong. In early Catholicism, thinking something bad was seen as much a sin as actually doing it. Now, Protestantism split off and didn't believe that as much, but the ideology of thoughts and actions being nearly equal in weight has always been part of Western Societies ever since. It creates a very unique way of looking at the world. Sin isn't just what you do - it's more than that. And that's where morality and judging others comes into the picture.

This also influenced the basis for modern psychology in many ways. Most Americans find it curious and interesting that many other cultures feel little or no discomfort with their inner thoughts. Not in a sense of it being wrong or improper to think bad thoughts. Only their actions are really seen as being critical. In fact, that's also why few people in other countries and cultures use psychologists for therapy sessions.(not that they aren't useful for real psychological illnesses, of course) The idea of lamenting and venting over what you think in your own head as if it's some huge problem is foreign to most of the rest of the world. Their societies and religions are almost completely concerned with actions and deeds.

So of course it's not an issue in Japan. A good parallel would be like watching kids play cops and robbers. Of course adults don't take it seriously, because they know it's not real. And likewise in Japan, because it's just stuff in some book or magazine and nothing more to them.

edit - if you look closely, China isn't concerned with thought policing but action policing. You can think about anything you want. You can't write or email or talk with others about certain things, though. In their view of the world, that's already entered the process of action and not thoughts in your own head.

[bluestars87]

@ Plekto - In what country is rape OK?
Some parts of India if I'm not mistaken.

[Plekto]

It's obviously not okay in Japan, either. That's part of what I find offensive about the original topic, in fact. Games are just games. Porn isn't the same as visiting a brothel, obviously. And virtual rape isn't the same thing as real rape.

And if another culture doesn't have a problem with something that isn't even real, then who am I to even bother? That some people who honestly have too much time on their hands and feel that it's their job to pass judgment, that's a larger problem.

I'd like to know the original poster's reasons for starting this topic in the first place.

[darighaz]

There is a strong corrolation between what people percieve as being OK, and what they are willing to go and do.

celebrating virtual rape and rewarding for it is bad.

[Jetsetlemming]

You guys do know that America's censorship of pornography is far lighter than Japan's, and we "allow" rape porn and games, including selling those horrible evil rape PC games in America by American companies like JList and Peach Princess, right? They've outlawed "extreme pornography" in the UK, but in the states just about anything goes as long as it's not child porn or the intentional illusion of child porn (the case against Max Hardcore primarily stems from a video of his where an adult actress claims to be 15 onscreen).

I'd like to know why the hell Japan demands mosaics but allows basically everything else. It seems like such an incredibly, fundamentally retarded policy.

[SlickWilly440]

I'd like to know why the hell Japan demands mosaics but allows basically everything else. It seems like such an incredibly, fundamentally retarded policy.

Exactly, all the really good parts are blocked out. I guess they don't want the viewer to get too excited and bother the person living next door by shooting a hole through the wall.

[PopCulturePooka]

Exactly, all the really good parts are blocked out. I guess they don't want the viewer to get too excited and bother the person living next door by shooting a hole through the wall.
Jeez stereotyping much. The walls might be thing and papery, but god they aren't bad...


No, they'd more likely stain the walls and make the wet spots somewhat translucent and soggy on the neighbours side.

[Plekto]

And here I thought landlords in the U.S. have it bad when they have to replace the carpets after someone moves out. eccch.

[atomiton]

Personally... I find murder far more revolting than rape.

But it seems in America, violence is celebrated. If a movie has a sex scene, it's rated R. If it has violence... a mild warning and PG.

Shows like Grand Theft Auto which glorify not only murder, but a criminal lifestyle.

Or how about Manhunt 2:

During the course of the game, the protagonist is encouraged to use a variety of methods to eliminate characters. For example, you can push an enemy face-first into a live fuse box, use telephone cords to strangle an enemy, rip off his testicles with a pair of pliers, or you can drown an enemy in a toilet.

The BBFC commented that in certain cases, it could "consider... modifications which remove the" offensive material. This was not the case with ManHunt 2. The game "is distinguishable from recent high-end video games by its unremitting bleakness and callousness of tone... which constantly encourages visceral killing with exceptionally little alleviation or distancing. There is sustained... casual sadism in the way in which these killings are committed, and encouraged".

Now Rockstar Games is launching an appeal to the video gaming industry to battle the BBFC's decision and have it revoked (as the lack of a rating effectively bans it sale). A Rockstar executive from the UK takes the position that "we need to teach people that games are an art form - they are more artistic than film."


Seriously... if the trailer doesn't make you wretch...

It's not that you're going to go out and suddenly kill people... but to say it has no effect whatsoever on the kids who are playing it... is retarded. Of course it has an effect, if nothing else, desensitization.

It's just that it's not easy to measure...

[Jetsetlemming]

Manhunt, like GTA, was developed by Rockstar, which is actually a Scottish company. Violence gets PG-13 to R, the difference being a show of blood primarily. You can show someone get shot and fall over in a PG-13 movie but they won't have an effect of the actor getting hit- only someone pointing a gun and shooting it, and someone else falling down.

I've personally never seen the problem with the much-hyped "desensitization". It's true, it's a specific effect the army strives for in new recruits. Why? Not to kill, but to keep calm faced with blood and gore. Someone used to it won't be retching and freaking out, but ignoring the gore to hold their buddy's open wound to try and stop them from bleeding out when they're injured on the battlefield. Similarly, someone who's not blood shy could save a life in an accident or attack in public.
Desensitization saves lives.

[mikem]

I'd like to know why the hell Japan demands mosaics but allows basically everything else. It seems like such an incredibly, fundamentally retarded policy.

This was one of the many things forced on the Japanese during the occupation.

Manhunt, like GTA, was developed by Rockstar, which is actually a Scottish company.

If you mean "Rockstar North" then your statement is correct. Rockstar Games is headquartered in New York with development studios all over the world. (Although the guys who head Rockstar Games are the same guys who originally created Rockstar North.)

[Silent Dob]

Well the occupation ended decades ago. Why are the Japanese afraid to get rid of mosaics?

[koku]

Okay seriously farknuts, when there are games like Manhunt, which the point is to try to get the most BRUTAL kills and it REWARDS you for it, and it's a MAIN STREAM title (unlike this weird porn game I'm sure many people have never heard about), then can you at least have the brain power to just see this is just cultural relativity at work here?

[darighaz]

Probably because raping innocents is far worse than killing random non-entities you've never met.

[koku]

Probably because raping innocents is far worse than killing random non-entities you've never met.

lol...omg are we really gonna have this conversation?

#1 The ol' "no! this crime is worse than the other!" argument is:



a) a stupid conversation already

b) once again, is cultural relativity at work, hence proving my point.

and

#2 in GTA a 8-10 million best seller you kill loads of innocents as well - you can kill old grannies, strippers, just about anyone but babies.


I don't know the rules for deciding "who deserves it" when you make offensive games, but you seem to have that down pat, so I'll leave that alone. But all right. You have fun defending murder/theft and other crimes but laying down the law against rape! You my friend are an American hero.


*and they both suck but I'd rather personally be raped than killed. I guess you'd rather be killed there, smart guy. :watson:

[MNJetter]

*and they both suck but I'd rather personally be raped than killed. I guess you'd rather be killed there, smart guy.
Well, you do hear all sorts of stories of people who have been raped, and they comment that they wish they were dead. I have a hard time understanding that sentiment, but then again, I've never been victimized.

[whispering]

(the case against Max Hardcore primarily stems from a video of his where an adult actress claims to be 15 onscreen).

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2007/May/07_crm_393.html

I really hope hell be raped in prison every night.

[darighaz]

Yea. Cultural relativity. And in my culture, i think rape is bad. I challenge any one of you to make a case that its ok to rape someone.

A statement that games about rape are OK because there are games about killing is a bullshit argument.

Edit : I dont own GTA 4, i played GTA 3. There are loads of difference between mobsters killing mobsters, and hitting people with cars with people making silly sound effects, and a game where you go rape someone. The fact that you cant discern the difference says more about you as a person, than anything about the cultural bullshit that people like you (meaning everyone defending the shit) always manage to pull up every time you're caught with your hand down your pants in the playground.

It has nothing to do with culture, or relativity, and everything to do with people not wanting to own up to the parts of themself they dont like.

[Plekto]

The difference is that REAL rape is seen as such in Japan(and you better not do it lest you get punked 40 different ways by their barely civilized prison system).

Virtual rape is seen as not real.

Perhaps they have a better grasp on reality and don't confuse the two nearly as often?

[Roxie]

the fact that anyone would make a game out of rape to sell to people is disgusting.

[geesehoward4life]

It's obviously not okay in Japan, either. That's part of what I find offensive about the original topic, in fact. Games are just games. Porn isn't the same as visiting a brothel, obviously. And virtual rape isn't the same thing as real rape.

And if another culture doesn't have a problem with something that isn't even real, then who am I to even bother? That some people who honestly have too much time on their hands and feel that it's their job to pass judgment, that's a larger problem.

I'd like to know the original poster's reasons for starting this topic in the first place.

Why exactly are you so "offended" by the original poster, posting this?

[MNJetter]

Probably because the OP asks why Japan "approves" of rape games, as if your average Japanese person wouldn't be just as disgusted by the concept as your average westerner. Japan doesn't have that small, vocal percentage of super religious people trying to censor the entire nation's activities like America does, but it doesn't mean that general opinion is that widely stratified. I know a lot of really conservative-minded Japanese people, and a lot of really easygoing Americans. And vice versa.

Perhaps there is a group in Japan who would like to see it banned there as well, but my guess is that many of them are too embarrassed to be vocal about it. Going public with rape-related issues is definately not kosher for your average Japanese citizen. I've never even had it come up in conversation there, or seen it as a major news story (unless U.S. military personnel are involved :duh:).

A statement that games about rape are OK because there are games about killing is a bullshit argument.
Why? People who think rape games should be banned probably are also of the type who think that killing games should be banned too. Personally, I can't imagine enjoying either type, but mine is just one opinion of millions.

[darighaz]

Its a BS argument because the existance of one questionably good/bad thing, doesn't justify other questionably good/bad things.

Its like saying that sleeping on the job is OK because everyone ELSE was sleeping on the job too. Just because someone else isn't being activly persecuted for it doesn't mean its OK.

There was much hubub about manhunt 2. it was this horrible game where you brutally murdered people. It was also pretty bad, and no one much bought it (Maybe because most people aren't INSANE).

GTA doesn't let out everyones inner muderer so much as it lets out everyones urge to just go nuts and blow crap up. its non-descript destruction. Theres not exactly any takeaway from a rape game other than what.. letting out everyones urge to go rape someone?

I cant believe theres even really a debate that a game where you're a rapist is a good or bad thing.

Now, Should it be banned according to standards of personal freedoms? I dunno. depends on a ton of factors and how far you're willing to take personal freedoms. But do i think it should be banned because its horrible filth that people shouldn't be ALLOWED to make money on? Yea definatly.

There is a fine line to be drawn between whats OK and whats not. However why choose rape as the issue to get behind? Really. At least senseless violence you can get behind most of the time as the other side being the Bad Guys. this is just retarded.

[Jetsetlemming]

When they came for the rape games I remained silent
I was not a Japanese game developer

[Plekto]

Nice. :)

[atomiton]

Rape games and violent games are the same.

Desensitization is NOT a good thing. To say it saves lives is ridiculous.

The US Military does not use these tactics to desensitize people so they can hold their buddy's wound open. There are better ways to desensitize people to medical gore. Like watching open heart surgery.

Actually, the military used to use bull's eye targets for target practice. According to the book On Killing by David Grossman (Military Psychologist), military training teaches soldiers to overcome their inborn resistance to killing. They discovered that it was possible to break down this reluctance in a large percentage of people in the infantry simply by replacing the normal bull’s-eye targets with man-shaped targets during shooting practice.

In a similar fashion, claims Grossman, violent games teach children “the skill and the will to kill.”

To say what we take into our minds via the eyes has NO effect on us, is foolish.

Whether that's a raping game or a killing game. They're both wrong, plain and simple. Culturally accepted or not. There are certain human values that we are born with.

If you wouldn't do these things in real life, why would you even WANT to practice them in the virtual world.

[mikem]

If you wouldn't do these things in real life, why would you even WANT to practice them in the virtual world.

Wow, that's such an easy question to answer.

It's in man's* nature to want to kill and subjugate. Yet we all generally recognize that it's a pretty good idea to keep these particular things in check. However in modern society we don't have great outlets for them.

Maybe creating video games to fulfill that need is not a good idea, but to pretend we have somehow eradicated this from the species is silly.

(*I'm not talking about human-kind here either. While it doesn't exclude women per-say these are very masculine traits regardless of gender.)

[stsparky]

I'm betting the game play sucks. In the bad way. I've been given "dating sims" to test and the boredom can make one violent. I can see the purpose of violence in a game, but cruelty and rape don't seem to add much.

[PopCulturePooka]

I think this goes far beyond the anime style rape games in Japan to why is rape fantasy and fetish so prevalent in many media and what does it say then about perceptions of women and their roles.

Why are there many many porn movies made about rape/molestation? To the degree where some AV shops have an entire section devoted to rap style movies (anime or live action).

Why is being groped/molested on public transport an almost 'expected' event for most women in Japan?

Why do Japanese rape laws and investigations treat the victims like criminals with some rather bizzare investigation procedures and questioning lines?

This is more than just 'the west likes violent games, japan likes rape games' and is really 'Why is rape as a sexual fetish so marketable and 'popular' amongst Japanese men?'

[D-pad]

Like all of Japan's problems, I blame...

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u4/fireyfox_01/inuyasha.jpg

[darighaz]

pretend we have somehow eradicated this from the species is silly.

(*I'm not talking about human-kind here either. While it doesn't exclude women per-say these are very masculine traits regardless of gender.)

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't stop trying.

[Ichisan]

You have to understand that in Japan, there is no history of religious oppression and puritanical scriptures that espouse a view that the human body is bad.

Never was. Not for thousands of years. That's a *European* ideology. A Christian one as well. What religion(s) are practiced in Japan? Right... You're getting the picture why it's inane to even talk about this as if it's something that's wrong. It may be wrong to your sensibilities because of the culture you grew up in, but to them, it's no different than how the Hindus have a prohibition on killing cows. Here in the U.S., it's completely not an issue one way or another except to that specific group. In Japan, this isn't an issue either other than to a small group who tend to be rather annoying, or at least that's what the average Japanese person feels.

In fact, it was only in the last few decades that the U.S. forced Japan to have any rules at all about any of it. So there's a lot of resentment and an attitude of "well, we'll do what the Gaijin tell us to do to the letter of the law but otherwise we'll do what we've always done since time began..."

Ok, yes, Christianity opposes Man to Nature, Nature to God, and God to Man and animism does none of these things. But that doesn't mean there are no morals or no rules. Rape is illegal in Japan after all.

And...if they're so blase about sex, why do they mosaic out private parts?

[Jetsetlemming]

Rape games and violent games are the same.

Desensitization is NOT a good thing. To say it saves lives is ridiculous.

The US Military does not use these tactics to desensitize people so they can hold their buddy's wound open. There are better ways to desensitize people to medical gore. Like watching open heart surgery.

Actually, the military used to use bull's eye targets for target practice. According to the book On Killing by David Grossman (Military Psychologist), military training teaches soldiers to overcome their inborn resistance to killing. They discovered that it was possible to break down this reluctance in a large percentage of people in the infantry simply by replacing the normal bull’s-eye targets with man-shaped targets during shooting practice.

In a similar fashion, claims Grossman, violent games teach children “the skill and the will to kill.”

To say what we take into our minds via the eyes has NO effect on us, is foolish.

Whether that's a raping game or a killing game. They're both wrong, plain and simple. Culturally accepted or not. There are certain human values that we are born with.

If you wouldn't do these things in real life, why would you even WANT to practice them in the virtual world.
Please cite your qualifications to speak on military tactics and the effectiveness of desensitization in emergency situations, otherwise you're talking out your ass.
The standard US military desensitization tactics for field first aid is shooting a live fucking pig and having the troops try to patch it up.
Another fun fact: The Military also uses games and virtual simulations to train soldiers.

Also, Jesus. Do you apply that retard logic to everything? "If you wouldn't do these things in real life, why would you even WANT to view them in a movie." "If you wouldn't do these things in real life, why would you even WANT to read about them in a book."
It's called an escapist fantasy.

[Roxie]

You know what I don't like viewing in a movie? Rape.
Seriously, "Blindness" made me have a panic attack.

[koku]

Hope you realize the Manhunt series probably sold tenfold times the amount this ranodm rape game did. I'm not defending this rape game. I'm laughing at the fact you are defending violent games and thrashing this one. I think the only difference between MNjetter and me and your side is we are at least trying to be mature enough to NOT jump to conclusions. Maybe it is cultural relativity at work..maybe not, but I am not the saint of morality so I guess I will leave the absolute hand of judgment to you.

Reading the last few posts I am now more convinced that games like gTA are less on the "bad" scale than the rape things, and I also find it weird that Japan has a rape fetish. At the same time, look how anti-violent they are.


At the same time,

which country is safer?

So rape fetish or not, they seem to be kicking our ass when it comes to actual results. We have phsycos here shoot up schools on a yearly basis, plenty of deaths on the news 24/7, and they have.... some pervish guy that gets off to these games, and a woman groped now and then on the trains.


Yep. We are so much smarter than Japan when it comes to what to expose our people to. They should start taking notes.

[Jetsetlemming]

Contents of our entertainment have absolutely no effect on how safe or violent we are. Violent, realistic games have been on the rise for the last 15 years, as have the number of gamers. Last time I saw a poll, more than 2/3 of Americans play videogames. Over that same period of time figures for crime, especially violent crime, have been plummeting.

[MNJetter]

And yet the crime rate in Japan, where they allow violent games and rape games, has been shooting up by leaps and bounds. Maybe they should be a little more concerned about what sorts of things they allow amazon to sell in their country. :watson:

(Just kidding, I know there are tons of factors involved there, for both countries)

[PopCulturePooka]

And worry about what is growing evidence of the HUGE amount of unreported sex crimes.

My gf back in 04 wasn't just 'groped' on a train. She was digitally penetrated. Never reported t cause she said the police would do nothing and wouldn't care.

[qwert]

I tend to think that video games allowed by a country doesn't cause crime, but rather the allowance of the video games is more a reflection of the society in general. An indictator rather than a spark in lame terms.

[D-pad]

And worry about what is growing evidence of the HUGE amount of unreported sex crimes.

My gf back in 04 wasn't just 'groped' on a train. She was digitally penetrated. Never reported t cause she said the police would do nothing and wouldn't care.

Yea, sorry bout that, man...

[japanat]

Please cite your qualifications to speak on military tactics and the effectiveness of desensitization in emergency situations, otherwise you're talking out your ass.
The standard US military desensitization tactics for field first aid is shooting a live fucking pig and having the troops try to patch it up.
Another fun fact: The Military also uses games and virtual simulations to train soldiers.

Also, Jesus. Do you apply that retard logic to everything? "If you wouldn't do these things in real life, why would you even WANT to view them in a movie." "If you wouldn't do these things in real life, why would you even WANT to read about them in a book."
It's called an escapist fantasy.Not even the military uses games and virtual simulations of rape... Don't forget why the military uses these methods - because they are attempting to desensitize their soldiers to situations which they would normally be shocked to be in.

I tend to agree with Orange. The popularity of certain games are more reflections of the culture than the games affecting the culture.

And Koku, just how safe do you think Japan is? While it is not on a par with the US for violence, there have been 4 murders that I know in the last 18 months in my area, including a taxi driver who was given an assassin's grin from ear to ear, for 10K yen. And when I asked 2 years ago, more than 3/4 of my female students aged 12 and over said they had been groped on public transportation. About 40 out of 50.

[h2orowe]

I'm kind of of the opinion of people equating Japan's rape games to America's killing games.

I highly doubt that these games about rape are as cruel or violent as real rape is. I mean, I could be wrong. However, I don't see much market for a game where you punch the shit out of a woman, grab her by the hair and then stick your penis in her while insulting her/continuously beating on her. However, I know some people who like to do the whole submissive/dominant thing and maybe these rape games are an outlet for the Japanese shut ins to vent that out. If the games in question are anything like the few hentai games I've played (Oh, shut up. I'm a horny teenage virgin.) then the rape is more or less the girl doing that whole "zomg, don't do it. I don't want my first time to be so sudden." at first thing then eventually going "I enjoy the shit out of this but it is so wrong." I've seen ones like that that show a bit of blood, which, tbh is pretty damned sick and I don't know why one would be turned on by blood, but it's not as cruel as actual rape.

In Western culture, however, you have games like... well, to use the previous example: Manhunt. I play video games a lot and when I was 15 or so, I played Manhunt. I'm a pretty passive guy, I must say. In real life, I'm loud and talkative but when it comes to violence, I do my best to avoid it in nearly all forms except for the occasional friendly rough housing (and oiling down to sensually bond with some bros.) Manhunt was pretty fun because I was in a pretty shitty home situation at the time and it let me get my aggression out. I definitely knew the difference between Manhunt's enemies (God, I don't even remember the set up for the story but they deserved to be killed in game, I think) and me being pissed at my Stepdad. I wouldn't take a plastic bag and suffocate my stepdad, however, I'd do that to the 3D character model in Manhunt.

If video games or any other form of media desensitizes anyone to anything, the parents should be blamed. By the age of 18, the average person who WANTS to shoot up hookers in GTA or force sex on some MOEMOE Blob in an anime dating sim should know that there are definitely lines between REALITY and VIRTUAL REALITY. However, not everyone knows that. Especially those who are still learning what's wrong and what's right. When you're just beginning to get peach fuzz by your willy and your dad lets you buy GTA, I wouldn't be surprised if you ended up becoming a little more violent than the kid whose dad got him Banjo and Kazooie instead. You're still forming your morals at that age when you're transitioning from picking up your native tongue, learning how to do basic human functions and the like, into learning what sort of responses are appropriate for what situations: no longer crying when you can't buy your action figure, no longer screaming at your friend for beating you at Diddy Kong Racing, etc.

This is why the ESRB in America is a very fair system. Especially as of late because thanks to really lame organizations and people like Thompson or whatever his name was, there was stricter enforcement of ESRB sales. You have to show ID if you look too young to be playing GTA, employees will warn you of the content for games if it looks like you're buying a game for a young child and it's got a higher rating on it, etc.

In Japan, if a responsible adult was playing a rape game (which I honestly don't see why you'd want to when you could have sex with a real girl who wants to have sex with you or at least masturbate to pictures of anime girls whose text bubble says they're enjoying it with you) I doubt they'd be more inclined to rape anymore than they'd be inclined to swing from vines, eat bananas, and ride Rhinos because they were playing Donkey Kong Country or shoot fireballs from their hands because they were playing Street Fighter 4 and getting their ass handed to them by me.

[geesehoward4life]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfyVByyltEI

You know I stumbled across this same thread on Yellowworld too, but this time I decided to actually click the link and read the article, at least the one on their site. The minute I read the article and then skipped back over to here? On OP9 this topic has reached 3 pages, on Yellowworld...? It couldn't even get past 1 page. So I took note of that first, aside from the loli-train image that player 0 posted over there which was... disturbing.

My point is this, the article within itself says a number of interesting things that actually point to very real and very serious problems in Japan, which so far I have had the misfortune to stumble across directly, as well as some members on here have posted on it and about it as well. Here is the actual article with NO LINK, but posted plainly for anyone and everybody to see. I found it more odd that anyone could hope to find a redeemable or justifiable quality to this when I finally read the article itself.

Amazon Halts Sales of Japanese 'Rape' Video Game
Friday, February 13, 2009

A Japanese computer game that lets players simulate raping girls has had its sales blocked by Amazon.

The 'RapeLay' videogame was available to buy on the web store via a third-party seller specialising in Hentai - sexually explicit Japanese animation products.

"We determined that we did not want to be selling this particular item," an Amazon spokeswoman said.

Rapelay was reportedly created exclusively for the Japanese market but a couple of "like new" copies were being offered on Amazon.

The game was released in 2006 by Illusion studio, based in Japan.

Other titles from the studio include 'Battle Raper' and 'Artificial Girl'.

According to game review site Giant Bomb, RapeLay is a "molestation simulation that allows you to terrorise a woman and her two teenage daughters, with events ranging from groping on a train to gang rape and forced abortions".

The Belfast Telegraph reported that Labour MP Keith Vaz said he was shocked by the Amazon listing and planned to raise the issue in Parliament.

Mr Vaz told the paper: "It's intolerable that anyone would purchase a game that simulates the criminal offence of rape.

"To know that this is widely available through a major online retailer is utterly shocking. I do not see how this can be allowed.

"I will be raising this matter in Parliament and hope that action is taken to prevent the game from being sold."

Now that is the link to the article as posted on FOXNews.com, the one on HERE is actually much more detailed about what goes on in this game
Rapelay virtual rape game banned by Amazon
A PC game that allows players to gang rape virtual women – and then force them to have an abortion – has been banned from Amazon.

By Matthew Moore
Last Updated: 1:42PM GMT 13 Feb 2009

Withdrawn from sale: Amazon.com has stopped selling RapeLay, in which players have to stalk and rape a family of women
In Rapelay, gamers direct a character to sexually assault a mother and her two young daughters at an underground station, before raping any of a selection female characters.

The game was intended for release just in Japan, but was on offer to British buyers through Amazon Marketplace, the section of the online store's website open to third-party sellers.

But Amazon has now withdrawn the game after complaints from users, deeming it to be inappropriate. "We determined that we did not want to be selling this particular item," a spokeswoman said.

Rapelay was developed by the Japanese production house Illusion, which makes a number of sexually violent games for the domestic market. Their other titles include "Battle Raper" and "Artificial Girl".

A spokesman for the company said: "We believe there is no problem with the software, which has cleared the domestic ratings of an ethics watchdog body."

Keith Vaz, the Labour MP for Leicester East who has previously spoken out against computer games that promote violence, condemned the game.

"It is intolerable that anyone would purchase a game that simulates the criminal offence of rape," he told the Belfast Telegraph.

Rapelay, which was released in 2006, encourages players to force the virtual woman they rape to have an abortion. If they are allowed to give birth the woman throws the player's character under a train, according to reviews of the game. It also has a feature allowing several players to team up against individual women.

So there are both articles, relatively the same except one actually has a response directly from the company, as far as the second article, but notice the spokesman's name is NOT mentioned. Yeah, I know, we've seen faceless frauds put in print and quoted, but it is more than a little ironic that due to the nature of this "game", the spokesman just happens to be anonymous. Please note that in the first article in which Amazon also had a nameless/faceless spokesperson... notice how it happens to be a nameless and faceless spokeswoman. While the nameless/faceless spokesperson for Illusion in the second article is a predictable nameless/faceless spokesman. Ahhhh, this is the part where Jack Palace would say "Believe it... or not...." And it is at this point that we can begin to actually look closely at how this game is fine in Japan and they even have a ratings board, which approved it by the way, but the further West it attempts to travel the more one has to be... careful, about attempting to obtain it.

This has nothing to do with Catholic religion and its influence or the West versus the East. It has everything to do with the status and expectations of women, and men, in the comparable socities as well as their ability to participate within their own socities. So let's look at the fact that Japanese women didn't even gain the right to vote until their country lost WW II. In 1920 or was it 1921, they gained the right to be able to sit in or attend, political party rallies and conventions. Please excuse my rust in these matters but I do know that they still had no right to vote and they could not actually influence the political system or its policies or proceedures. When one looks at the fact that some of the worlds first dildoes are actually found in Japan and then you begin to do some research in regards to whether or not women were ever meant to be pleased by the act of sex during Japanese history? Then you start to see a pattern all too easy on why this game and others like it are acceptable, but "reviewed". You also begin to see another reason why the Japanese birthrate has gone backwards.

When you look at the second article it even includes the fact that if the player allows the women to carry to term and not force the abortion, then it is the women themselves that kill the male character. I don't know about you but that within itself is one of the reasons why I asked when I first got here; Is psychology practiced in Japan and if so, to what extent?

Well? This one topic alone was one of the reasons why I asked because Japanese society is based on the whole, the entirety, being greater and more important than the sum of its parts. It is also another reason why I have always stated elsewhere that Japan losing WW II was far more of a disaster for it than people realize. So in this game you stalk a family of women? "Interesting"... and oh-soh-manly, huh? Stalking a family of women? Sigh, pathetic and oh-soh-dickless, but if that's what gets you off... fine, I guess. What is interesting is that I would love to conduct a survey, if I could? To see how many ACTUAL Japanese couples would roleplay through a submissive/dominate scenario where the man is a rapist and the woman is his unsuspecting and innocent victim. How many of you reading this believe that an actual Japanese couple would be able or interested in actually playing out this scene alone, in private, NOT being paid by some Japanese porn company. NO financial gain for it, nothing more than to satisfy whatever sexual fantasies or fetishes that either or them has.

With that question out on the table I also have to ask this one; Where exactly is the father at while this is going on? Okay, finnnnne, it's a game. But like all things, even this post, there is a method and a message to the madness. So I'd ask you to wonder about the role of the Japanese father and the Japanese male in particular, as a part of modern day society, for starters. Tell me, how much "power and control" does the average Japanese man have in his life? When you start to think about that and if you bother to look up any information on it, then you quickly see how something like this could be or can be cleared as "ok". But let's simply say based on pure-D gameplay terms, the player, male of course... wait? Wait just a moment, what would be the reaction...? If the player had the choice of choosing to be male... or female? Think about that for a second... Yes I know, that wouldn't make any sense now would it? Of course not.

And stop looking at me like that. Yes, I saw all of this and thought about all of this the first time that I saw this thread. I then gave a simple one word question and departed at best possible speed to something more important, till my own interactions with Japanese people over the last four years got the better of me. Disclaimer done or at least, disclaimer one, done. This "game" has some interesting pieces of information on the state of Japanese society, much like the overabbundance of Crap Rap and the subject matter within it also says some things about Black American society. This game allows one to rape a mother and then attack and rape her daughters, whom I presume are, underage? I already revealed however long ago that Japan's laws on age of consent only came about because they were so eager to win the Winter Olympics and that they forgot that most of the world was going to come to their country. Well... the gaijin weren't too happy about all the pedo behavior they saw from the door and they started reporting it back home. This is what caused Japan to change its child porn laws and to instill an age of consent. Both of which are not actually enforced now that all of the gaijin have left, but you don't have to do too much speculating to see how this ties heavily into why Japan is so fearful about a massive wave of gaijin, becoming citizens, especially Westerners.

Far as I'm concerned they'd probably fair better against the Borg, at least they're a bit more predictable. All that aside the game brings up issues that are very serious in Japan and are NOT being addressed. If you look up Japan's abortion rate you will find that it has been used more as a measure of birth control than the actual fact that the pill was at one point banned in Japan and only became available due to pressure, yet another reason for the low birthrate, using abortions as a means of birth control. We won't get into the fact that like many things in Japan, abortions are under-reported, so the claims of how safe Japan is varies on how much longer can the old established society continue to contain the ever-increasing desire by more and more Japanese to be seen as individuals and not cogs in the machine. But in this game... You not only get to stalk and attack and rape a woman, but then she expects you to "clean it up" or "clean her up" by making sure she gets an abortion or else she kills you. That's pretty much the gist of what the game is telling you, that women are also totally dependent on men even when wronged by them. Yet... as extreme as this "example" is, I should look confused when non-Japanese still think that Japanese women are docile and obedient when Japanese society still attempts to sell its women in that manner. The second article also states that you can gang up on one woman, several players. So tell me, why isn't this sold in Western countries, particularly in America? Answer...?

Because the women here by themselves would be out in the streets every single day with the names of every last person who is/was involved in this games development. And design AND approval, because they know and understand that the horrors of rape are not something that should ever be made into something that is socially acceptable. Like a conversion of it... into a video game, which is after all a form of everyday, accessible, entertainment. Tell me, how many women in Japan, do you think, have protested and demanded that this game and other games like it, be taken off the market? Or am I to believe that Japanese women are "okay" with being depicted in this manner? Maybe, maybe it just isn't a big deal to them, maybe, or? The reason why the game was approved and will continue to be approved is because Japanese women do not have any actual power in Japanese society and that this is the reality and is a very real part of their culture. The sad irony is that many Japanese men are just as powerless pending on what position and where they are in the Japanese socio-political and economic flow chart of the food chain, heh-heh, flow chart of the food chain, that is Japanese life. AZ has posted more than enough blogs about this and other things that he has seen in Japan where maintaining the status quo is more important than adapting and doing a self-diagnostic, some introspection, on what needs to go the way of the dinosaur, what needs to be modified and what needs to be added-on or created, to better pursue the advancement of Japanese society.

Let's remember that we just had an article about a lack of doctors in Japan and people dying because they can't get into a hospital. In that same article it talked about the fact that elderly Japanese are using hospitals as places to hangout at. I have read articles about elderly Japanese living under bridges and overpasses and we should all remember that the instance of Japanese people starving to death in their own homes, is also "more common" than reported. But yet that same article had an interview with a neighbor who said, and I'm paraphrasing "Why didn't he ask me for some food? I would have given him some." as if mysteriously this man being interviewed in regards to his neighbors death, suddenly can't remember why on earth a fellow Japanese citizen would literally sit quietly and starve himself to death out of shame that he had to ask for help... from a non-family member. Never mind that the same exact article talked about how "County Assistance", welfare offices in Japan, are REWARDED AND PRAISED for keeping people OFF of welfare... while taxes are collected for something that is actually ENCOURAGED NOT to be used. Too many people on welfare is definitely NOT what you want, but then encouraging people to turn AWAY those in need, when no one is on it as it is? To turn away THE ELDERLY?

I'll make the obligatory point of the fact that I am well aware that my own country has its share of problems, but even in the more paralyzing issues that we grapple with here we still make some sort of attempt to bring them to a national level of attention no matter how piss-poor it may be, but in Japan? We've read articles on OP9 of people being forced to resign if they say the wrong thing, whether it is true or not. It simply isn't up for discussion, at all, and those who dare to do so will be reminded of the nail that stands up and the fact that it simply must be hammered down. We have seen two Prime Ministers resign without warning and they are almost immediately burned out from stress as soon as they even start to tackle the issues that they are faced with. The Empress was pressured forever and a day to produce a male heir, where ironically, because of the fact that she had not, they had finally consented to making it possible for there to be an Empress to inherit the throne. Sadly, she produced a male heir, but if even in this, it takes an inordinate amount of circumstances to cause change? I don't care what anybody says, it is unhealthy to be that stubborn and inflexible, regardless of race or nationality. Worse than this and on the personal level, I have had to see my own favorite J-idol actress get destroyed for buying into the hype that modern day Japan... is "different" for women now. This game is just one sign that it is okay to find SOME OTHER MEANS of talking about what is bothering you, in Japan, as a Japanese. Because frankly you've probably got more of a chance of getting yourself into trouble if your choice of topic is something that the mainstream of Japan can't even deal with in honest and open conversation, never mind whenever real results will be reached on the issue you just brought up. It reminds me of something that Fumiko kept pointing out to me, the same way that Masahiro and Miko did, each in their own way, but always with the same theme and ending "Japanese people...? Don't adapt or adjust very well. We like things to stay in the boxes they are in, even if we were not even around when the boxes were created. You or it, are in your box, please stay there."

[Silent Dob]

Very interesting post! One of the best I've seen on OP9.


So basically.... what you're trying to say is, that these Japanese men are trying to compensate for their lack of power by dominating women, and that women do not fuss because they don't wish to disturb the so-called "box" they're trapped in.

Still, a rape fantasy is a very extreme one to have- but of course, I've read that a lot of Japanese porn centers around rape.

What is it about rape that excites Japanese men so much? I know they raped like crazy during WW2. Their soldiers were absolutely brutal to the poor Chinese and any other woman they could get their hands (and bullets, and bayonets, and anything else) on.


Still, this is the country which faps over to tentacle monsters violating women- damn, even their tentacle porn is rape porn. Of course, I don't watch any tentacle porn but I'd assume there aren't any tentacle porn where the tentacle monster is a fine, upstanding gentleman who romances a young lady and makes her fall in love with him before engaging in consensual orifice-violating.

Japan has one seriously messed-up rape fetish. I'd still like to know more about why on earth Japanese men are so obsessed with rape as a fantasy. Is living in Japan so fucking miserable for Japanese men that a rape fantasy against women is the only way many of them are able to feel as if they have any power at all?


(also, this thread is now officially incomplete without a link to that robot chicken sketch about the tentacle monster calling up the girl he dated.... can't find it on youtube though. This link will have to suffice for now.


http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/HowTo:Avoid_tentacle_rape#Avoiding_tentacle_rape_. 28for_the_rest_of_us.29)

[Silent Dob]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6530197.stm

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Japanese_Military%27s_%22Comfort_Women%22_System

+

Nothing quite says lovin' in the oven like repeatedly raping a girl over and over and letting your friends hit it.


http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-11/03/content_490666.htm

"BANGKOK, Thailand -- A kamikaze suicide pilot fell in love with imprisoned "comfort woman" Lee Yong Soo, but that did nothing to stop the atrocity of her being raped by hundreds of Japanese soldiers during World War II.

Up to 200,000 females -- mostly teenagers -- were enslaved for rape by Japan's military in China, Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Singapore, according to London-based Amnesty International.

The human rights organization recently brought Ms. Lee and another so-called "comfort woman" to Bangkok, to emphasize the launch of Amnesty International's new report titled, "Still Waiting After 60 Years: Justice for Survivors of Japan's Military Sexual Slavery System".

Ms. Lee's one-and-a-half years as a sex slave is merely a haunting slice of Japan's various war crimes.

But Tokyo continues to shrug off international demands for official compensation to its rape victims.

"I was 15, in my home in southern Korea, when a Japanese man came behind me at night, put his hand over my mouth and kidnapped me," said Ms. Lee, now a 70-year-old South Korean, recalling her ordeal in an interview.

In the autumn of 1944, the innocent girl was taken to Pyongyang, now in North Korea, and put on a ship where she was tortured, threatened, and forced to submit.

"There were five of us girls, with 300 soldiers, on the ship and we were repeatedly raped on the journey which took maybe two months from North Korea to Taiwan," she said, speaking in Korean language.

"There was a 'comfort station' in Taiwan where I then received pilots who belonged to the kamikaze, a special suicide brigade."

One of Japanese kamikaze pilots, who repeatedly raped her in Taiwan, told Ms. Lee that she was his first love.

"That Japanese soldier gave me a Japanese nick-name, 'Toshiko'. And the kamikaze pilot taught me a song. He made up a song, because he was afraid he would die when he finally had to fly.

"It's in Japanese," Ms. Lee said, and then she softly sang the lilting tune which she never forgot.

"The song goes like this," she added, translating the Japanese into Korean, which was then rendered into English by a translator during the interview:

"The fighting planes are taking off / Taiwan is disappearing far below / Clouds appear / Nobody is saying goodbye to me / One person who can cry for me is Toshiko / We will fight in Okinawa / If I die, I will guide you to your mother / So please don't cry, because you will go back to your mother."

That shred of hope, amid their mutual doom and suffering, at least allowed Ms. Lee to believe she might survive.

"I think he is my savior. I still thank him," she said, clarifying that she felt no romance for him.

"He came to me many times. That soldier told me I was his first love."

Occasionally weeping while telling her tale, Ms. Lee said the kamikaze pilot "gave me all his soap, and other things for taking care of myself, because he said he was leaving tomorrow to die."

Ms. Lee never married.

"I returned home to Korea in May 1946, after more than one-and-a-half years" of sexual abuse.

Today, she continues to demand justice from Tokyo, despite Japan's official dismissal of any current legal responsibility for its military abusing "comfort women" during the war.

Ms. Lee and other victims of sexual slavery under the Japanese during World War II are demanding "a full package of reparations that requires rehabilitation, compensation for the victims, restoration of lost homes, property, and livelihood, and guarantee of non-repetition," said Dr. Purna Sen, Amnesty International's director for the Asia-Pacific Program.

"Before and during World War II, up to 200,000 women were sexually enslaved by the Japanese Imperial army, [some] as young as 12. They were held by the army in so-called 'comfort stations' for months, and some for many years," said Dr. Sen, who accompanied Ms. Lee in Bangkok.

"Some were shackled together for long periods of time. They were forced to have sex with 40 to 50 men a day. The women and girls came from China, Taiwan, Korea, the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Holland, East Timor and Japan.

"The 'comfort stations' were set up by the army in China, Taiwan, Borneo, the Philippines, the Pacific islands, Singapore, Malaya, Burma and Indonesia," Dr. Sen said.

"For 60 years, these women have waited for justice." "



:japan:

[geesehoward4life]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJTi7KJPx_E

The women make a fuss, but what can they do when the lionshare of power is held by men? Again, the low birthrate is part of their expression, collectively or not, against the limited amount of roles and opportunities that they have in Japanese society. When things are fine, then they can interact, but when times are tough then they are the first ones to be let go of. They constitute the majority of Japan's part-time workers, last time I bothered to check. So who can they complain to when they are still fighting to even get positions of power in the first place. Let's also remember that this is also the land that brought us Battle Royale, where the government within itself, attacked its own youth over failures by the adults, and that's whether you go by the book version or the movie. The reality is that it was adults that messed up, but instead of cleaning up the mess, they then shifted the blame to the kids because they were just that, kids. If a society whose guardrails are based more on the concepts of the society moreso the parental responsibilities and guidance BY the parents?

Well if society falls down then frankly those muthaluva's are shit outta luck! They don't know how to actually parent moreso than parrot what they were taught and told! Here is an old post I made on another site on 08/30/2005, for a forum member named Keikofan...

Keikofan, here you go;

The Wasted Asset
Japanese women are smart and entrepreneurial, so why is so little effort made to harness their talents?

By Hannah Beech

Posted Monday, August 22, 2005; 20:00 HKT
Yuka Tanimoto knows how to serve tea. She can do far more than that, of course, but the 33-year-old newscaster says her Japanese male bosses and they were all male weren't overly interested in her non-tea-pouring skills. At the Yamaichi Securities firm, which Tanimoto joined in 1997 as an in-house newscaster, she was chided for daring to voice her opinions on news content and for cropping her uniform skirt from mid-calf to a scandalous length just below the knee. "The company was looking for cute, non-ambitious girls," says Tanimoto. "We were supposed to make copies quietly, not think." In 2000, Tanimoto moved to the electronics giant Matsushita, but things weren't much different. Only 2% of the women she worked with were on a career track; the rest were so-called office ladies who rarely graduated from tea and copy duty, even after years of service. After getting her M.B.A. in the U.S. last year, Tanimoto couldn't face working for another Japanese company. So in March, she took a job with CNBC as their Tokyo markets reporter. "As a woman, I can rise much higher at a foreign company than at a Japanese one," says Tanimoto. "The Japanese business culture is not changing quickly enough for people like me."

As Japan prepares for an election widely thought likely to define its future, it might contemplate why half of its population is still preserved in the amber of a tradition-bound past. During the country's bubble years, when jobs were plentiful and hopes were high, women began to expect both a greater role in the workplace and a lesser role in the home. In 1985, Japan's parliament passed a law ensuring gender equality at work, and men's magazines ran serious articles on the joys of cleaning a toilet. But then the golden apple was snatched away. Once the bubble economy burst in 1992, women were the first to be laid off. Although more women work now than a decade ago, they are still the last to be rehired to full-time jobs and must often eke out a living on part-time work. In May, a gender-gap survey by the World Economic Forum found that, in terms of economic opportunity and political empowerment, Japanese women ranked 52nd and 54th respectively out of 58 developed and emerging economies. And even though women were named as heads of two major Japanese companies earlier this yearat supermarket chain Daiei and electronics maker Sanyoonly 7.7% of departmental and section managers in the world's second-largest economy are female. Of those women who do manage to cultivate careers, just 30% continue working after childbirth because the rest cannot juggle both home and a job, according to the Ministry of Health, Labour, and Welfare. "This is a critical period in Japanese history," says Hiroko Hara, a member of the Advisory Committee for the Prime Minister's Office on Gender Equality. "We have to figure out whether to keep fighting for our dream of equality or just give up on having it all."

(Geese says; so here is the answer to this old article, the Japanese women have decided to put off having children, put off having husbands and they've simply, SILENTLY, decided to go for SELF! AND MOFO'S AIN'T TOO HAPPY ABOUT THAT! HAHAHAHAHA, AHEM! Sorry.)

In one way, there's nothing special about Japan. Women in the developed world have played out variations on the work vs. home theme for decades. But the stark career-or-kids choice in Japan has created a demographic nightmare. Because Japanese women are expected to quit their jobs when they have children, a record number are foregoing marriage altogether. Today, one in four Japanese women in their early 30s is single, up from 14% a decade ago. As a consequence, Japan's fertility rate fell to a record low of 1.29 in 2004 compared to 2.13 in the U.S., giving it one of the lowest birth rates in the world. Demographers predict that the country's population will actually start declining in 2007. If present trends continue, Japan will shrink from a nation of 127 million today to 64 million by the end of this century and from 2010 onward, the declining population will adversely affect the economy. Yet compared to other developed economies, Japan, under the leadership of the Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) has been notoriously slow in implementing policies like flexible hours for working mothers, enhanced day-care options and financial incentives for bearing more children.

That means that Japan is not getting anything like the most out of its workforce. Indeed, even though Japan will soon face a shortage of workers, a Cabinet Office survey released in July found that 63% of Japanese companies had no plans to try to hire more women. Tomoyo Nonaka, who took over as chairman of Sanyo in June, remembers her first attempts to get a job as a photojournalist. Nonaka had an advanced degree in the field but was told she was unqualified because she wasn't male. "That was my start in Japan," she says. "A very clear 'No thank you.'" And those who get "Yes" for an answer know they are fortunate. Yukari Yamashita-Yui, who develops satellites for the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, works for an open-minded government agency, so her hours are regular. "I'm very lucky, because I couldn't do this at a private company," she says. "Half of my female friends from university have quit their jobs as astronomers. They wanted to continue working, but they had no choice. The working environment is almost impossible for mothers." Only 11.6% of Japan's scientific researchers are women, compared to one-third in the U.S.

You'd think the government might want to do something about that. On the contrary, allege critics: "There is no sense of crisis within the LDP, and no interest either," says former House of Representatives member Seiko Noda, who is often mentioned as a future leader of the party. "Why? Because the main opinion is that [the falling birthrate] is the women's fault and the men do not need to do anything." If anything, many LDP politicians would prefer to see women return to the role of okusan which means "person in the back of the house" as wives are commonly called in Japan.

(Geese says; It gets better!)

Last year, an LDP panel on constitutional reform issued a report recommending that Article 24 of the constitution, which guarantees equality between the sexes, should be revised because it has promoted "egoism in postwar Japan, leading to the collapse of family and community." Similarly, former Prime Minister Yoshiro Mori has argued that childless women should not receive pension benefits: "It is truly strange to say that we have to use tax money to take care of women who don't even give birth once, who grow old living their lives selfishly."

(Geese says; HOW DARE YOU SELFISH BITCHES NOT POP OUT SOME KIDS ON COMMAND! BAD JAPANESE WOMAN! BAD AND SELFISH! WAAAAAHHHHHHHH! HAHAHAHHA! All of my inserted stupidity aside, you look at that last part and think about even this "rape game" and look at the fact that the game was designed where the man must then take the raped woman or girl to get an abortion... Meanwhile in the reality of Japanese society the birthrate is now going backwards. So its just a bizarre and twisted up line of logic that leaves nothing good as an outcome. The game is/was approved, the problems in society are steadily getting worse and everybody is aware but no one wants to actively and actually address it.)

In the run-up to next month's lower house elections, Japan's tabloids have sensationalized the fact that Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi has approached several prominent women to stand for office against the 37 LDP party members who voted against his postal reform bill. So far, however, only four women have committed to run as so-called LDP "assassins." While postal reform is the election's key issue, the party has included a few family-friendly planks in its latest manifesto, including tax breaks for households with kids and proposals to improve childcare at smaller companies. But critics like Noda have charged that the party leadership panders to women only in times of crisis. And, according to the latest tally, the LDP still has the lowest number of female election candidates just 17, compared to 23 for the Democratic Party of Japan and 68 for the Japanese Communist Party.

Certainly, less-than-progressive attitudes remain surprisingly common among the LDP lite. This summer, a faction of ruling-party members, including acting LDP secretary-general Shinzo Abe (Geese says; anyone remember this man?), often tipped as a likely future Prime Minister, publicly criticized a governmental draft report on how to achieve gender equality. "A [gender-free] concept which ignores the value of marriage and the family is linked to the destruction of culture," said Abe during a party conference. Minoru Nakamura, a popular assemblyman from the Tokyo suburb of Funabashi, was even more blunt about those who advocate equality between the sexes. "Pitiable women who direct their dissatisfaction at being ignored by men toward society ... are truly laughable," Nakamura said. He then added: "It's also strange how these women, compared to their peers, are uglier."

(Geese says; Wow... guess who else plays the rape simulator game? I'm thinking Nakamura needs his diaper changed. Because his comments were not only childish, but also laughable. So only "the ugly women" complain? Wonder when a Japanese Barack Obama will come about? No, he doesn't need to be a Japanese minority, but actually be able, never mind. Just, never mind. Let's move on!)

In theory, younger Japanese men are far more open to equality than their fathers. They have to be: two incomes are often the only way that a family can maintain a comfortable lifestyle in Japan's big cities. Still, the pressures of a workaholic culture dissuade men from cutting out early and doing a little dusting. Work in Japan can extend to late-night drinking sessions with the bosses, and men who don't guzzle beer with their peers may find career prospects stunted. Only 0.4% of men take paternity leave, while 73% of women take maternity leave. Wives also shoulder most of the burden of caring for the country's rapidly aging population. "Women must work twice as hard as men to advance their careers because of prejudices within Japanese companies," says women's rights activist Hara. "And then they have to go home and work three times as hard there." Hara's housework estimate, in fact, may be too low: a survey by the Japanese Broadcasting Corporation found that women spend a daily average of 3 hours and 49 minutes on household duties. Men? They spent just 32 minutes a day on the chores.

The post you just made Silent Dob about the comfort women is what would actually compel me more, IF I were Japanese, which I am not. To do away with any of the rape-themed anything, solely so people don't think I am thumbing my nose at history and my own people's past transgressions. But from the very first time that I found out and read about Comfort Women during my junior high days, I'd had some experience with Japanese culture and people, and needless to say it wasn't exactly a fun time. So when I learned about the Comfort Women it was not shocking at all.

Fast forward to today and this is one of the primary reasons why one would think that Japan would put a lockdown on rape based anything, due to the fact that during WW II they were absolutely brutal to women of foreign or enemy occupied countries, but? This is why I wrote what I wrote in the first reply, the country within itself was never good towards its own women, so what do you expect in a situation of being the victorious army against an opposing force or nation? Just like they say a child cannot learn manners if the parents have none or a child cannot have manners if the parents TEACH NONE, then you get what you pay for. The article you posted Silent Dob is a prime example where that Japanese soldier, in his mind, may TRULY have loved that Korean woman, but anyone who is anyone knows the boundaries of human dignity and decency. And when one loves someone, they do not allow harm to come to that person. Yet he did nothing to protect her and that ends that. So light-years later, and not reallllly light-years later, but Japanese society is still finding ways to indulge itself in things that quite frankly have NOT tarnished Japan anywhere near where it should have... And they have the United States to thank for that.

But that's another story within itself....

[Roxie]

I can't believe he made the "women who want equality only complain b/c they are ugly {and therefor, can't find a husband and failures as women}" argument

[Silent Dob]

No wonder Az had so much luck with the ladies in Japan! As a foreigner who doesn't act like a supreme God simply because he's a man and as someone who actually treats women like they're not lower life forms, I'm sure that must have been a big turn-on for a lot of Japanese women.

[MNJetter]

f anything, many LDP politicians would prefer to see women return to the role of okusan which means "person in the back of the house" as wives are commonly called in Japan.
Oh, it does not. People need to research their kanji before they start talking like they know the culture inside and out. Not that the article is inaccurate overall. But it does bring into question how accurately they portrayed their other statistics.

[Plekto]

No wonder Az had so much luck with the ladies in Japan! As a foreigner who doesn't act like a supreme God simply because he's a man and as someone who actually treats women like they're not lower life forms, I'm sure that must have been a big turn-on for a lot of Japanese women.

Absolutely. Men in the U.S. are taught almost from birth to give women due respect even if they personally might not agree with it. There might not be equality in the workplace(yet), but you don't dare open your mouth and say anything against women unless you want to look like a cretin. Men are taught to respect women(just check out the typical wedding - it's HER day) and give them huge latitude at home.(this is the rule, of course - not everyone follows it - and this is with or without kids)

Add in the fact that people who find work overseas are almost always more liberal, and you get pretty close to an optimal scenario for many Japanese women - they are treated as equals, or closer to it than possible in their own society, and there's always the prospect of moving to the U.S., where it's a dozen times better in this area.

[geesehoward4life]

Oh, it does not. People need to research their kanji before they start talking like they know the culture inside and out. Not that the article is inaccurate overall. But it does bring into question how accurately they portrayed their other statistics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7KkFcyOklg&feature=related (You will get in thine kitchen... And cook mine meals. Because I find your lack of faith... disturbing. NOW SILENCE ALL YOU UGLY WOMEN!)

Okusan means wife, your wife, at least as far as I know, however... I wouldn't be so sure that this article is incorrect... this first piece of information I'm literally going to cobble down word-for-word because the source of it is from a book called Womansword by Kittridge Cherry. In her book alone it is actually about Japanese words concerning women and what they reveal about the actual status of women in Japan. Okusan comes up easily on the google search and this book with its entry is THIRD if one enters this search phrase like I just did;
Did okusan mean person at the back of the house

So far I have found that YES, it did mean a woman kept at the back of the house or the bowels of the house.

The entry in Kittredge's book has the kanji for Okusan and goes into the history of the word and the fact that no matter how much work a man does he will never be spoken to... lemme just type it down;

Whether they are at home, at work, or outdoors, married women in Japan are addressed as "Mrs. Interior" (okusan or more formally, okusama). Okusan is the most common word for talking to or about other men's spouses---one of many situations with its own specialized wife vocabulary in Japanese. Oku means not just interior, but the depths far within a building. The suffixes san and sama are not gender specific, but broad enough to mean Mr, Mrs., or even Ms. However, okusan can never be used to denote a Mr. Interior, no matter how much time he spends in the deepest recesses of his home. As the language makes clear, that is traditionally the woman's place.

The term is rooted in pre-industrial Japan, where the wives of lords were exhalted as okusama. While most feudal women labored with their families to wring a living from farmland, the aristocratic okusama enjoyed homes big enough to have an oku, and leisure enough to spend time there. The original okusama were not only cloistered in the house, but kept hostage in the feudal capital of Edo (present-day Tokyo) as part of an elaborate system of social control...

I STOPPED! Because as I was reading down the page and typing it onto here I ran into something that I'd stumbled into during the version TWO Pimsleur Japanese audio lessons I'd rented from the local library, regarding the word "goshujin". I'll post the link to the book
http://books.google.com/books?id=-2-6dEG4W4kC&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=Did+okusan+mean+person+at+the+back+of+the+house &source=web&ots=UqV_zCwGAt&sig=g3pTO6pyfIfEwsVvS_KRtnCNUlI&hl=en&ei=rfSeSbvcGeHAtgeNtL2XDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA66,M1

But I'm siding with the article as accurate, especially after typing from this book Womansword by Kittredge because on the 2nd Edition Japanese audio lessons when you reach the word goshujin, "your husband". In the 2nd edition it tells you that this word was the equivalent of master or honorable master when speaking of one's own husband TO other people. Even when I was using the library copies I loved how it made the instructor for the lesson squemish to talk about the actual history of certain words. AND, if memory serves he was very clear that many of the old meanings of certain Japanese words still carry their weight whether acknowledged or not. BUT!? In the 3rd edition audio lessons that I bought it does NOT have this or many of the other actual meanings behind Japanese words in the lessons. It just gives the lessons and moves on.

Wow... where is your master? HAHAHAHAHAHAH! I mean... AHEM, your husband.

[D-pad]

I can't believe he made the "women who want equality only complain b/c they are ugly {and therefor, can't find a husband and failures as women}" argument

It's not that only unattractive women want equality, but that attractive women usually are content unless they're extreme bitches. Ugly hoes have less too be happy about in general. (As seen in the situation on this very website)

[geesehoward4life]

I can't believe he made the "women who want equality only complain b/c they are ugly {and therefor, can't find a husband and failures as women}" argument

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCc0tmkvnBc

In all honesty, what else could he do? He certainly isn't interested in holding a real conversation about it, nor does he like the fact that he's even spending his time talking about it, which shouldn't be so obvious from such a small clipped conversation. As far as he is concerned, by the way he came off, they might as well be a rogue "program" or unrecognized mob simply disrupting the fabric of Japanese society. I'm sure that some of them do see it that way.

But here is a better question, Roxie;
Imagine having a relationship with a man who sees the world this way? Even with that you start to see why rape-sims and such are so readily approved when the women are in one way, shape, or form, making it clear that they'll just do without then if they can't be listened to and taken seriously. They're going to go for self as best as possible, just like anyone else, ANYWHERE ELSE does, when they see they certainly will get a bunch of lip-service but no real results. Nakamura's comments arbitrarily dismiss one-half of his own countries population, solely because they are women. So now if you multiply his attitude and his outlook on the issue, regarding women having more rights to participate where it is NOT just empty-and-hollow words that don't appear to be enforced at all. But if you try to imagine how many men potentially share his view and then you are talking about a country where communication was never its strongest aspect whether internally or externally, then like I said. We have no reason to question how the rape simulator can go through an "approval process" and land on the market, while we read AZ's instances of being asked "How many women have you raped?"

It also ties nicely into why they DON'T want a mass intrusion of foreigners, especially men. It certainly doesn't mean that Japanese women will go racing after any and every foreign man solely because they are foreign, but what it does do? Is it forces the male half of Japanese society to change in some way or another, due to the arrival of another option outside of itself. Even from the prospects of Japanese men wanting to be involved with a foreign woman, some foreign women will go for them setting the pace and going about things as if she were a Japanese woman, but I'm sorry. In a mass migration, especially of Western women? I can't possibly believe that a mass migration of say American women, to Japan? I honestly don't believe they would go for many of the things that are a part of Japanese culture, especially the parts that intersect with the relationship aspects of it. Being at work till ungodly hours of the night. The drinking parties after work that are mandatory, but NOT mandatory. Never mind the potential "celebration" of going out and visiting the local whore house.

Mmmmm, whore house...

This pendulum isn't just something where a mass of foreign men will affect Japanese women only, but what about the mass introduction of foreign women to Japanese society? To me, much of this will depend on where the masses are coming from AND the particular strength and relationship of the homeland that the immigrants are coming from. But without any kind of external force, Japanese women are finding their way the same way that too many women from all over the world have at some point or another, had to do. Good luck to them and the Japanese men that support them....

[geesehoward4life]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR2v62mfdX4

Here is some more direct information where an LDP member Seiichi Ota, got turned around during an interview and... well? You can read for yourself. Again, this is an old article where you can see the progression of events that lead up to and land at where everything is today.

Fury over Japan rape gaffe

Mr Ota said he had meant to add that rape was a serious crime
A senior Japanese politician has been forced to apologise after sparking outrage by appearing to condone rape.
Seiichi Ota, a lawmaker with the ruling Liberal Democratic Party (LDP), said at a debate on Japan's declining birth rate that at least gang rapists had a healthy appetite for sex.

"Gang rape shows the people who do it are still vigorous, and that is OK. I think that might make them close to normal," the former cabinet minister told a symposium.

Female legislators issued a joint statement on Friday condemning the remarks as an insult to all women.

One legal official said he thought the comments showed that Japanese society was too accepting of rape.

Mr Ota told reporters on Friday that he deeply regretted the "inappropriate, exaggerated expression" after he was reprimanded by LDP secretary-general Taku Yamasaki.

The remarks came as the veteran politician attributed the country's declining population to a lack of courage among Japanese men to enter into married life, the Mainichi Shimbun reported.

Asked by the debate's moderator whether this explained the behaviour of five college students who were arrested earlier this month for gang raping a peer, Mr Ota said that rape showed a healthy attitude.

"I know I'll get in trouble for saying that, though," he reportedly added.

Later he told the paper that his comments needed to be considered in context.

"If you only took what I said, well of course it would be regarded as extremely careless remark. I wanted to add that rape is a serious crime that should be punished severely, but the topic had changed and I wasn't given the chance to speak any further."

"I think the fact that such comments were reported made victims... and many women feel unpleasant, so I want to reconsider and express my apologies," he told reporters.

PM censure

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said the remarks were inexcusable.

"He deserves to be criticised. Rape is an atrocious act of cowardice and has nothing to do with virile qualities," the leader told reporters.

"I don't understand why he should make such a comment," he added.

Yasuyuki Takai, vice chairman of the Japan Federation of Bar Association's committee on victim support, said Mr Ota's remarks were indicative of Japanese society's passive attitude to rape, which often goes unreported.

"It shows that in Japan, rape is not thought of enough as an awful act... Japan's social views against incidents of rape need to be made more strict," Mr Takai told the French news agency AFP.

Prison sentences for rape in Japan range from two to 15 years, but it is unusual for a sentence to be more than five years.

[ミュー]

You don't understand Japanese social roles.

The woman may be "relegated to the house", but housewives often have the final say in decisions about children and finances. This might not sound like a lot, but it is not uncommon for the husband to only receive a portion of his paycheck that has been rationed by his wife.

In America finances and decision-making is usually relegated to the father, no? This power is going to the stay-at-home mother in many (if not most) cases.

The business world is undeniably sexist. However, many women enjoy taking advantage of this. Many OL-type women are not very serious about their job and would rather let male coworkers deal with the workload while they make coffee and do menial tasks.

I know I am going to get a double helping of shit for this, but I know OLs and salarymen in Tokyo in a variety of situations, and this is the message I get.

[geesehoward4life]

You don't understand Japanese social roles.

The woman may be "relegated to the house", but housewives often have the final say in decisions about children and finances. This might not sound like a lot, but it is not uncommon for the husband to only receive a portion of his paycheck that has been rationed by his wife.

In America finances and decision-making is usually relegated to the father, no? This power is going to the stay-at-home mother in many (if not most) cases.

The business world is undeniably sexist. However, many women enjoy taking advantage of this. Many OL-type women are not very serious about their job and would rather let male coworkers deal with the workload while they make coffee and do menial tasks.

I know I am going to get a double helping of shit for this, but I know OLs and salarymen in Tokyo in a variety of situations, and this is the message I get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe8UHxVzO9M&feature=related

What is it that I don't understand about Japanese social roles? And you'll get no shit from me for being honest, but I am curious about some of what you have typed. I just want to be sure of what you are saying and whether or not the above quote sums your point up. And I am aware that Japanese women historically controlled the household....

[geesehoward4life]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-je6hkGoL0

This piece brought to you by Inside-Japan.com....
The Myth of Submissive Japanese Women
Often is it said that Japanese women are submissive or passive when compared to women from other developed countries. Over many years, this stereotype has transformed from myth to reality in the minds of many--but it's simply not true. Japanese women today are independent, confident, outgoing, and very much empowered.

For example, the majority of Japanese housewives handle almost all household chores--cooking Japanese meals, taking care of the kids, and doing the housework--while the men go to work. On the surface this may appear rigid, traditional, or even sexist. But is it?

Since Japanese men are expected by society and their families to work extremely long hours, they have very little time to sleep or eat, let alone pick up after the kids or fix a meal. And being a sengyo shufu (housewife) is a far more appealing choice to many women compared to the demands of working in corporate Japan.

And since most Japanese women control the household finances and allocate an allowance to their husbands, it could be argued--and has been--that it is Japanese women who are the heads of Japanese households.

Outside of the home, many people point to examples of Japanese traditions that seem to discriminate against women and keep them somewhat powerless in Japanese society. For example, Japanese women are often expected to quit their jobs when they marry or become pregnant, although it's illegal to require them to do so.

But what isn't always known is that many companies and regional governments offer a form of early retirement pay for women who choose to leave the workforce to marry or raise a family. This options isn't even available to men.

Perhaps more telling, the prospect of leaving a job to become either a housewife or mother still appeals to the vast majority of Japanese women--and is widely regarded as a far more worthwhile pursuit than the corporate grind (although the low Japanese birthrate doesn't seem to reflect this attitude).

Culture in Japan changes rapidly, yet somehow stays very much the same--on the surface at least. And the surface of culture Japan is what most see. But if we peel back the layers of culture in Japan, a very different picture emerges, especially when it comes to the roles of Japanese women.

Like most stereotypes, the image of the Japanese woman as submissive and passive isn't really based on reality--or rather, it's only based on one thin layer of it. Regardless of what books, movies and collective beliefs have told us, and what Japanese culture shows us at a glance, Japanese women may be among the most confident, capable, and empowered women on Earth.

HAHAHAHAHA! WAIT-WAIT! That part, this part here!?!?
Perhaps more telling, the prospect of leaving a job to become either a housewife or mother still appeals to the vast majority of Japanese women--and is widely regarded as a far more worthwhile pursuit than the corporate grind (although the low Japanese birthrate doesn't seem to reflect this attitude).
I DID NOT put the part in brackets in there! That is what THEY HAVE on the Inside-Japan site! LOL! It's kinda like, everything is fine, although my house may be on fire... But at least...? I am not in it. Now please? Move along... move along... LOL!

[Silent Dob]

What's an OL?

[mikem]

I know I am going to get a double helping of shit for this, but [...] this is the message I get.

I don't know why you would get shit for this. A lot of Japanese people of both genders are quite happy with the way things are. The number of girls that want to get married and become housewives is extraordinarily high. The whole point of going to college, for most girls, is to have access to best pool of husbands and to also be able to get jobs at companies that offer a "second chance" pool of husbands.

Very few girls have any interest in slaving away at an office. This seems to be extra true for those that have had a taste of the working world.

A Japanese girl that can marry a reasonably successful husband is in for a pretty damn good life honestly. It's just too bad there's not enough of those to go around.

Also, geesehoward4life, you keep quoting articles in English about life in Japan. That is an almost unmistakable sign that it was written by someone who doesn't know jack or shit.

[mikem]

What's an OL?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=OL

[darighaz]

And yet that turned up nothing.

[geesehoward4life]

I don't know why you would get shit for this. A lot of Japanese people of both genders are quite happy with the way things are. The number of girls that want to get married and become housewives is extraordinarily high. The whole point of going to college, for most girls, is to have access to best pool of husbands and to also be able to get jobs at companies that offer a "second chance" pool of husbands.

Very few girls have any interest in slaving away at an office. This seems to be extra true for those that have had a taste of the working world.

A Japanese girl that can marry a reasonably successful husband is in for a pretty damn good life honestly. It's just too bad there's not enough of those to go around.

Also, geesehoward4life, you keep quoting articles in English about life in Japan. That is an almost unmistakable sign that it was written by someone who doesn't know jack or shit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVELhUyLZGk&feature=related
You can now tell AZ to stop posting his life experiences because they are in English which means he doesn't know jack or shit either. As a matter of fact you responded in English, so you also can cease and desist to. But I do like the fact that you did include the words an almost, unmistakable sign. And yes it is too bad that these "girls" go to school at all if all they are doing it for is to troll for potential husbands. Japan could divert the tax dollars that they waste on women and their education to help restore their economy, if I am to go by your quote. But they would be too much like coming straight out the gate and being completely open and honest about what they expect from their own women.

So this was why I said, people buy into the stereotypes about Japanese women because Japan itself spits it out. Don't blame me because I actually take you for your word or for your actions. If all they are meant for is baby-making then you also get your answer on why they potentially turn into shrew-like nags, they don't have any other purpose in life, so of course when they finally find the ONLY PLACE that they matter in, they probably will be or become overbearing or bitchy about it. Not like they had any say prior to this point and since they had to wait so long, might as well make sure that the person who has made sure that THIS is the only place I can speak at, or the only time or way that he will listen. Better make sure to put it across loud and clear that I am in charge and he will do as I say, finally!

It creates its own problems mikem and of course one wouldn't want to be someplace where they are NOT-WANTED, nor valued. I don't need to be Japanese or a woman to know that. But we can just chalk up the nosedive in marriage and in the birthrate backstroking, we can attribute that to people writing articles in English and posting them on an English language based site about a man in Japan whose native language... is also... English....

Silent Dob; An OL is an office lady. For whatever reason you must not have had a high enough security clearance to simply be told straight-up what OL is.

One last thing Mikem? Your post has either justified, added to, or perhaps raised the question of, in regards to another stereotype that I've come across alot about Japanese women. It is the stereotype that they are lazy, materialistic fools, who can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Let alone hold an actual conversation. When I read your quote?

Ahhh, rich corinthian leather....
The youtube link above explains the weirdness in the last sentence... And although it may not appear to be the case, I honestly do thank you for posting what you have posted. It continues to show why rape games and such are A-okay in Japan. I mean, why worry about the feelings or thoughts of those held with such low expectations? Yet somehow...? They are expected to rear and raise the children of the nation? Fascinating....

[mikem]

You can now tell AZ to stop posting his life experiences because they are in English which means he doesn't know jack or shit either.

There are things in Az's posts that are factually inaccurate. He's not trying to make some profound commentary on life in Japan, he's just trying to be funny.


As a matter of fact you responded in English, so you also can cease and desist to.

You are really a grade A moron huh? I wasn't writing an expert opinion on Japanese society. I was just throwing out a few personal observations. You are trying to quote people as if their opinion means something.

The rest of your post is complete drivel and impossible to respond too.

If you are trying to make some sort of intelligent point quote actual Japanese sources and not stupid asshats who don't know anything about Japan that they didn't read in a book written by another asshat.

[archdukezeb]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=OL

Retarded. OL stands for office lady, basically women who fetch coffee and do other intern level type of work.

[darighaz]

Thanks

[stsparky]

WTF? Let's agree the game concept is especially retarded and move on. It isn't as if being sexist and insensitive is solely a Japanese thing. I can see how someone might want to relate this to equally dimwitted revenge games from America and Europe. The non-gamer world is just not going to get it. It's not as if women's tushies in France and Italy are safer than those in Japan.

I married an OL. Ask Plekto if Asian ladies are submissive. My experience says no. You'd better ask the JET teacher ladies if their Japanese dates expected them to be dainty and not combative when it came to the sexy fun part.

[ミュー]

First of all, OLs are not all on coffee duty. Some OLs contribute to their company, others just fuck around.

My personal experience backs these claims:
OL #1: Receptionist for a major bank. Contract employee.
OL #2: Application Processor for credit card company. Contract.
OL #3: Adjuster for insurance company. Regular employee.
OL #4: Client manager for recruitment agency. Regular.

Do you notice the lack of "coffee" or "tea" in any of those positions? These are real jobs that my friends hold, not an example. And out of those four, not a one complaint of sexism at the workplace. This "mass oppression" you speak of is a farce being purveyed by the all-English sources you read.

News articles are not woven of threads of undeniable truth. Media loves to get people like you all worked up, and the picture they paint is often very black and white. However, this does not make the articles true!

English news media about Japan is written by a host of bitter gaijin whom complain about Japan but would never leave, westernized Japanese women disillusioned with their homeland, and other such colorful folk. Do you think these people are unbiased?!

Keep reading all you want about how bad and evil Japanese society is, from the frothing mouths of those bitter columnists, but it's not going to teach you anything about reality. Come here with all of your outspokenness and righteous desire to shake those dirty old men from power, and fight the good fight for those Japanese OL hotties! I'm sure you can orchestrate bra-burnings in Shibuya, mass demonstrations in Marunouchi, and the smashing of office coffee pots all around Tokyo.

Have you ever even been to Japan?

There is some office discrimination and sexual harassment occurring in Japan, I am not trying to deny this. But you cannot hold Japan to your or anyone else's Western standards. Modern society finds a natural point of gender equality that reflects local culture and values. Japan will eventually shift into this equilibrium.

Furthermore, the LDP quotes about women and childbirth are being taken out of context. Japan's birthrate is at an alarmingly low rate and politicians are scrambling to find a way to push citizens to have more children. The real reason for the low birthrate is contract workers, astronomical social and economic costs, and a lack of daycare facilities.

I research this problem, in depth, as part of my field of study. There are many problems and few viable solutions, but sexism does not play a role as large as those articles let on. It's less social and more socioeconomic.

[archdukezeb]

Sorry for speaking off the top of my head I have a limited knowledge of japan and I was just speaking the sterotypical job duties that I've heard for a quick definition of the word because silent bob asked what OL stood for. Didn't mean to downplay the work of female office workers.

[geesehoward4life]

There are things in Az's posts that are factually inaccurate. He's not trying to make some profound commentary on life in Japan, he's just trying to be funny.

You are really a grade A moron huh? I wasn't writing an expert opinion on Japanese society. I was just throwing out a few personal observations. You are trying to quote people as if their opinion means something.

Geese says; If that's the attitude you're taking...? Why exactly are you bothering to reply? Per your own words, your own opinion doesn't mean anything either, so what is your point? Aside from calling me a moron and an... "asshat?" LOL! Wait! Oh you've made your point... You were tossing out conversational observations... Ahhhh, so you wanted to add to the conversation, okay. And... something I said, something I said a while back offended you? Let me take a closer look, please excuse me while I take off my... "asshat", you said? Moron? I understand that one, but... asshat? I don't think that will go over too well if I said that one as an insult on the street. Let me try it here on the internet... "HEY YOU.... Yeah I'm talkin ta YOU! You... ASSHAT!" HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You're joking right? What are you, 10 years old?

The rest of your post is complete drivel and impossible to respond too.

Sorry Mikem, but speaking asshat looses something in the translation. It must be all of that soft corinthian leather...

If you are trying to make some sort of intelligent point quote actual Japanese sources and not stupid asshats who don't know anything about Japan that they didn't read in a book written by another asshat.

Is this some sort of gay invitation or something? And how can a man who says his own opinion isn't worth anything then demand or set the rules for what is, or isn't, an intelligent point? And you like the word asshat a little too much for my taste. Sorry, but you want the Black men that have been to prison... repeatedly, and see nothing wrong with being surrounded by jail cell bars... and other men. They'll probably be able to decipher your whole asshat, congressman in a bathroom stall, jargon. But I'm not interested, so please stop.


Grade A moron, huh? I don't know what's more insulting, the piss-poor insults themselves or the fact that your beef comes from something you made sure not to talk about in your temper tantrum. According to you and your "personal observations" which you then disqualify by the end of your own post. And lets get that out of the way too. Did you bother to pay attention to the fact that most of the articles are English speaking people, talking to or interviewing Japanese people. So according to you, Mikem, the Japanese people interviewed in the articles have mysteriously been replaced by, English Speaking Asshats? So when a Japanese assemblyman blurts out the fact that it is the ugly women in Japan who complain about lack of opportunity, then he must have been replaced by an English Speaking Asshat at that precise moment. Seiichi Oda too was replaced by more ESA when he was in front of a symposium and forgot that he was in front of an audience of press and people and stated that gang rape shows a healthy sex drive?

I don't know what's creepier, the rape simulator or the fact that in your own way you appear to be condoning the simulator by trying to dismiss the fact that to put out such a game? In the other articles I posted women spoke out about rape and its wrong, as have men, yet it is okay for Illusion to make a profit off of turning the act of rape into a recreational hobby like a video game? I know, I know, that's not what you said, but all of the articles I posted involved Japanese people talking about Japan or English Speaking Asshats who've had to study and learn to be able to become a foreign correspondent where in the blink of an eye, Mikem uses his all powerful sparkly-sparkly magic wand and now... POOF! They don't matter anymore? Even when the people they talked to or interviewed, are Japanese. I guess you could do that, I guess you could say that... I guess. So when or should I say, IF, I bothered to post Japanese experts lamenting the same thing, will it be more valid then, oh Great and Powerful Mikem? Is that the kind of game we're playing here? I can see why you are so interested in Japan though, or is it that you are Japanese?

That's the only problem with the internet, you can't see who you're talking to.

As for AZ? Many of his posts are profound statements on himself and on how he interacts with and observes Japanese society. Even on how Japanese society has affected him, I'd say that qualifies as profound. He even admitted to being a Japanophile early on, but what exactly is it that he says, paraphrasing of course, but it has to do with him being a Black man in Japan. They are reflections of what he has seen as it relates to his interactions with the Japanese society itself. So I'm starting to wonder what exactly you've been reading and getting from AZ's blog or the purpose of it, when you say that he's not trying to make some profound statement. The fact that he's keeping the blog public when he could have made it private and kept it to himself, says that he wants people to read his experiences. That within itself already stops your point about him not trying to make a point. He's also made a number of posts which have questioned and caused conversations that have turned into flame-wars, debates or WTF moments, so that qualifies as profound.

Originally Posted by mikem
A lot of Japanese people of both genders are quite happy with the way things are. The number of girls that want to get married and become housewives is extraordinarily high. The whole point of going to college, for most girls, is to have access to best pool of husbands and to also be able to get jobs at companies that offer a "second chance" pool of husbands.

Very few girls have any interest in slaving away at an office. This seems to be extra true for those that have had a taste of the working world.

A Japanese girl that can marry a reasonably successful husband is in for a pretty damn good life honestly. It's just too bad there's not enough of those to go around.

Also, geesehoward4life, you keep quoting articles in English about life in Japan. That is an almost unmistakable sign that it was written by someone who doesn't know jack or shit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRJ4kgO4jic

Well, within the context of your own post you make it crystal clear that the women have no desires but to be baby-making, gold diggers. And unfortunately, per you, there aren't enough semi-successful sugar daddies to sustain these "girls". Again, if these are the expectations for Japanese women in Japanese society, then why get angry when a spade is called a spade? And are you even Japanese, because by your own definitions I should not pay you or your experiences any mind. And that is what is at the heart of your problem. Your first post and reply, are YOUR OWN WORDS, not mine. But it is within the context of your own words that anyone with eyes to read begins to understand why a rape simulator is okay. Per your words the women don't go to school or college to actually learn anything, they go there to waste their parents money, their own time, and even the taxpayers money, solely to troll for husbands. Why are you angry at me for clarifying your own words?

In all honesty one would have to wonder how the hell this particular country has even made it to its position as second largest economy in the world, if the workplace is actually a set-aside where the female population is there solely to get a second chance at finding a husband. At least if I am to question your personal observations or even if I am to accept them, it doesn't change the fact that if Japanese women veer away from this traditional set-aside area for them, then what would happen to Japan itself? Well we are seeing that something has gone wrong somewhere within the machine, but we don't see a big rush to fix it, plenty of finger-pointing and blaming, but solutions are few and far between. Maybe if we re-write the history books then that will fix the current situation?

Mikem, I'm sorry if I have ruined your day, but I would have thought you'd have been proud of the fact that I agreed with you and even solidified your point even better. Japanese women do not have any value in Japanese society unless or until they get married. What's so wrong with that? And tell me, if I mentioned Ayako Uchiyama would that allow me to post some more articles or would you dismiss her because she did a comparison study with a Westerner? Or are conversations with Japanese women allowed or should I call, email and text back to those women I have spoken to over the years. And tell them that their words are not valid, because someone named Mikem can't possibly believe that someone Japanese, especially a commoner, if I'm to take the tone of English Speaking Asshats that Mikem sets. But these women with broken English or not, good English or not, exchange students or not, non-exchange students or not. They don't matter. Meanwhile we should all ignore the known fact that Japanese people themselves don't talk about certain issues even when they are speaking amongst themselves. Your take on this is very interesting. You want me to give you answers from people who don't like to ask questions and have been known to flub or fix the answers until they can't hide the situation anymore? Eh, I guess I could do that.

Tell me, have you ever read the interviews from the author of Battle Royale? In it he reveals some of the "inner workings" of Japanese journalism, something that AZ has already pointed out about being given tasks... given duties... that he has no idea or qualifications for. Interesting read, you should look it up sometime. Or... will you ignore it because he's questioning his own society too?

WTF? Let's agree the game concept is especially retarded and move on. It isn't as if being sexist and insensitive is solely a Japanese thing. I can see how someone might want to relate this to equally dimwitted revenge games from America and Europe. The non-gamer world is just not going to get it. It's not as if women's tushies in France and Italy are safer than those in Japan.

I married an OL. Ask Plekto if Asian ladies are submissive. My experience says no. You'd better ask the JET teacher ladies if their Japanese dates expected them to be dainty and not combative when it came to the sexy fun part.

We can all agree that it is retarded, but that doesn't answer Silent Dob's question on why it exits in the first place. This is what actually matters, why does it exist in the first place? We are aware that women are raped in non-Japanese societies, no one is questioning that and I already know by having read your other posts that you know that to, St. Sparky. We also know that Japanese women, not Asian ladies, are not submissive, but why does the stereotype persist? My point is that it is the Japanese themselves who create the stereotype and then deny it, especially when one finds out the reality of what happens when a Japanese couple gets married. I already knew that Japanese women run the household finances, because some members of my family and a few friends of my family, are married to Japanese women. What I have done, even when the posts may have been impossible to read or understand, even when it was "drivel". Is point out that, why wouldn't you have rape simulators in a society where women have no say or are just now finding their footing, let alone obtaining a voice that matters. Even if the majority of Japanese women like things the way that they are, they have no other options regardless.

So why wouldn't they withdraw to being housewives only when they go into work and it is made clear that this is now, phase two of find a husband so you can take your ass back to the house where you will finally have a purpose. Why would they wish to slave away when more than enough articles by Japanese and non-Japanese talk about the fact that, they are lauded with attention and praise as high school girls and younger, but then they have an expiration date of 25 in regards to being "marriable material". More importantly their desirablility falls off the older they get, which will quickly alienate a woman or spur her to haul ass as quickly as possible to find a man to become her husband. Why wouldn't it breed shrew like behavior, resentment, etc, as they are hearded along to hurry-up and find a mate at the pace of the male dominated society, the very same one that won't even adjust so that they will want to carry out their traditional Japanese roles as a housewife, willingly.

The rape simulator is okay because women in Japan haven't reached a point of being able to say that it is not okay with a company like Illusion making profit off of video games that, essentially walks the player through HOW to violate a woman and then okay it, by having her then be the one to expect him to force her to have an abortion. I don't believe what I just stated was murky or impossible to understand...

And I'm not gonna touch the "sexy fun part"... I'll let that statement stand on its own merits.

[Silent Dob]

First of all, OLs are not all on coffee duty. Some OLs contribute to their company, others just fuck around.

My personal experience backs these claims:
OL #1: Receptionist for a major bank. Contract employee.
OL #2: Application Processor for credit card company. Contract.
OL #3: Adjuster for insurance company. Regular employee.
OL #4: Client manager for recruitment agency. Regular.

Do you notice the lack of "coffee" or "tea" in any of those positions? These are real jobs that my friends hold, not an example. And out of those four, not a one complaint of sexism at the workplace. This "mass oppression" you speak of is a farce being purveyed by the all-English sources you read.

News articles are not woven of threads of undeniable truth. Media loves to get people like you all worked up, and the picture they paint is often very black and white. However, this does not make the articles true!

English news media about Japan is written by a host of bitter gaijin whom complain about Japan but would never leave, westernized Japanese women disillusioned with their homeland, and other such colorful folk. Do you think these people are unbiased?!

Keep reading all you want about how bad and evil Japanese society is, from the frothing mouths of those bitter columnists, but it's not going to teach you anything about reality. Come here with all of your outspokenness and righteous desire to shake those dirty old men from power, and fight the good fight for those Japanese OL hotties! I'm sure you can orchestrate bra-burnings in Shibuya, mass demonstrations in Marunouchi, and the smashing of office coffee pots all around Tokyo.

Have you ever even been to Japan?

There is some office discrimination and sexual harassment occurring in Japan, I am not trying to deny this. But you cannot hold Japan to your or anyone else's Western standards. Modern society finds a natural point of gender equality that reflects local culture and values. Japan will eventually shift into this equilibrium.

Furthermore, the LDP quotes about women and childbirth are being taken out of context. Japan's birthrate is at an alarmingly low rate and politicians are scrambling to find a way to push citizens to have more children. The real reason for the low birthrate is contract workers, astronomical social and economic costs, and a lack of daycare facilities.

I research this problem, in depth, as part of my field of study. There are many problems and few viable solutions, but sexism does not play a role as large as those articles let on. It's less social and more socioeconomic.



Tell me, are you Japanese? If so then I'm sure you may have certain reasons for being so defensive- Japan makes a very big point of self-honor and protecting the system- just look at their coverups of World War 2. Jesus, you guys were brutal- not Nazi-brutal (that's not saying much since Nazi's are tops in that field) but still pretty fucking horrible. Most of your country denies the rape of Nanjing fanatically so how trusted can you be to tell foreigners of how supposedly wonderful things are for women?

You see us lowly, prejudiced, buffoonish gaijin daring to criticize the ultra-wonderful country of Nippon and naturally you take it upon yourself to set us brainwashed foreigners all straight.


If Japan's that great for women then what's up with the "women only" train cars because women get fondled up and harassed way too much by their own countrymen?

You seem to have a hive mentality of automatically being defensive and in utter denial. Like all (or at least the vast majority of) Japanese, you wish to sweep things under the rug. This is why things will likely never change in Japan.

Thus, I take what you say with a grain of salt, and a bit of rice and sushi and maybe some Wasabi.

Yeah, I'm such a rude gaijin calling you out like this- how dare I forget your centuries-old manners of being utterly indirect and afraid of stirring up controversy- but so what? It's only through behavior like this that things can get changed rather then being permanently underneath a rug.

Although you don't realize it, you're a part of the problem in your country. Not because you engage in rape or approve of rape, which you certainly do not, but because you're so shocked at this discussion that you're trying to quell and neutralize it to avoid a stir- your defensive "don't make a fuss, honor, honor" hive mentality blinds you to the bad parts of the society you inhabit, but then again you and most of your country have been taught to be like that most of your lives and you will likely teach your kids (or mostly single kid- note that if you want more babies in Japan, BE NICE TO THE LADIES DON'T TREAT THEM LIKE SLAVES!) to be like that too.

It's too bad your country pressured the poor Emperor's wife into nearly going insane giving you a baby boy- a female Empress could have made things a lot better. But you guys just couldn't bear having a woman be number one in the country.




(on that note, what are our thoughts on the rape, opps I mean the "peaceful occupation" of Nanjing?)

[Silent Dob]

The Elite Rape Club.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTxZXKsJdGU

....

for God's sake, TWO YEARS AND TEN MONTHS IN JAIL? Why didn't you guys just hire a geisha to giggle at him and slap him lightly with a silk fan for a few minutes? Less than three years of prison time basically amounts to jackshit, given how many women he set up to be gangraped. What is wrong with your "justice" system?


"Forcibly Raped for sexual pleasure of Japanese soldiers" woman (aka "Comfort Woman" speak out


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxKyeLOTA4E



More on the unbelievable treatment of women in Japan.








Also, remember discussion on Japanese men visiting prostitutes in Thailand?


Also, what are the statistics for the number of Japanese men married to foreign women vs. the number of Japanese women married to foreign men?

I'd be amazed if it wasn't astronomically tilted in the direction of the second group.

[japanat]

Silent Dob, have you ever looked at Myu's photo? He's blonde! Traditional Japan as epitomized by the Imperial Household Agency and the majority of Upper House politicians is not everyday Japan for most people. The blanket statements you guys are coming out with are way too general to be of any good at all in describing the reality of life in Japan for women.

There is no doubt that there is sexism in the workplace, especially in larger, more traditional corporations like Sony, Sanyo, etc. If a woman wants to go the career management route, they will find numerous obstacles, including the expectation that pregnant women and new mothers will need to take much more time off to care for their families and thus be unavailable when needed. My sister ran into the same problem in Colorado, btw, with an asshole boss.

And no, not every woman is stuck in or satisfied with the OL and marriage route. I've had OLs (as students!) who were in charge of their division's foreign sales, others who set up the entire English website for international corporations. It offers no intellectual challenge if they are on the "tea and clean" OL stage, but I'd guesstimate that number to be about 50% of OLs. Child-rearing and housecleaning too leave many women unhappy.

Remember, though, that most workers are not corporate clones. They are shopkeepers, factory staff, restaurant workers, teachers and homehelpers.

But in 20 years here, I have to agree with Mikem and Myu about one thing. Whatever you may have heard, read, or seen on TV, Japanese women run their homes. Husbands used to bring home the cash, which gave them the chance to hide some out for play or girlfriends, etc. But with the advent of direct deposit, even that chance disappeared.

In most families, the wife gives her husband an allowance (which could be as little as 10K/month), and takes care of the bills. Really, if a husband is working the typical 2-4hrs overtime per day, exactly when would he be able to go to the bank, take care of bills, etc? So, she runs the finances. She gets the kids off to school, does the laundry, cleaning, etc for the day, and is finished by, say, 11am. Hmmm.

If she isn't content in her marriage, that leaves her with a fair amount of time to play. Lunch with friends, language lessons, health club, other. My friend, teaching at a children's English juku, had a different MILF for each weekday.

[Silent Dob]

My apologies if Myu isn't Japanese- I made that judgement based on his name being written in Japanese characters and on his homepage linking to a Japanese website.

As for the picture he has of the guy next to the chick- that guy looks like a male model or a famous movie star. I don't really know if that's him or not but if it was he would need a more conclusive picture (like with a note, "hey this is Myu") to convince me.


Regardless, my post still sums up my feelings on how rape is treated in Japan. And just look at this-


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGkvlLKT9ig


to them it's like one big giant joke! They made a best-selling manga and anime off the concept of a "hero" who rapes women, who all happen to fall in love with him whenever he does. God help us if Dattebayo finds out about this.

[geesehoward4life]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvJbqhHGv_k&feature=related
Originally posted by ミュー
First of all, OLs are not all on coffee duty. Some OLs contribute to their company, others just fuck around.(Okay, I'm with you!)

My personal experience backs these claims:
OL #1: Receptionist for a major bank. Contract employee.
OL #2: Application Processor for credit card company. Contract.
OL #3: Adjuster for insurance company. Regular employee.
OL #4: Client manager for recruitment agency. Regular.

Do you notice the lack of "coffee" or "tea" in any of those positions? (Geese says; Now...? We're headed in two different directions. Either you think I'm dumb or you are dumb, but wouldn't it be a violation of the, never mind. I'll just say that I AM DUMB if I buy into your "notice of a lack of coffee or tea positions in their title". Hmmm, I didn't know that they DECLARED that coffee and tea positions were what they were hiring for? Can you please post the positions that clearly state that you, as an OL will be hired solely for the purpose of being the coffee or tea lady. If only everything was so blatant and easy to spot, life would be oh-soh-simple. Notice you also put this word down from the door...SOME OLs contribute to their company. And why would one keep women on the job who just fuck-around? Eventually they would need to be fired, right? Unless... they're not expected to ultimately work? Yes, yes, I know that everywhere has people who loaf at the job and swipe a paycheck, but just like last time. I didn't force you to type what you typed, you simply did. And your first choice of words as far as whether they contribute was, SOME. Certainly not MOST or MANY. It cuts both ways and I'm aware of that.)

These are real jobs that my friends hold, not an example.
(You sound like you want a cookie because women at your job have real jobs. You're coming off like you're desperate to convince me that women work in Japan and have real jobs, but even in the words you typed and the way you typed it? It's hollow... and unconvincing.)


And out of those four, not a one complaint of sexism at the workplace. This "mass oppression" you speak of is a farce being purveyed by the all-English sources you read. (Just like those comfort women too, right? Just like the attempts to re-write Japanese textbooks to edit out certain parts of Japanese history? And Comfort women, I might add, that were then used by American GI's during the initial occupation of Japan as soon as the War ended. OHHHH, my friend I don't spare anyone if I decide to speak on a subject and I know that in a few moments you will be telling me about bias and holding my tiny little hand to show me how people can be biased, bitter, and prejudiced... as well as woefully PREDICTABLE, in the words they speak, type and write. BUT AGAIN, they are talking to JAPANESE PEOPLE, and I read your response at the bottom about, it was taken out of context! IT WAS TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT! Sure, of course, no one can possibly fathom the true depths of how complex Japanese society is, right? That's why it has done so well outside of itself in matters of social interaction, right? And when did FOUR Office Ladies become the mass majority of Office Ladies? Unless they're like, the Legion of Doom and they've banded together from the remote regions of the Office! MAJOR BANK! PROCESSOR! AJUSTOR! And their evil ring leader... CLIEEEENNNNNT MANAGERRRRRRR! I think I'm onto a good manga with this one!)

News articles are not woven of threads of undeniable truth. Media loves to get people like you all worked up, (Oh crap, people like me? Damn it I wanted to be a person like you!) and the picture they paint is often very black and white. However, this does not make the articles true!(Is now when I am supposed to speak in a small... tiny little voice, and say "Thank you, thank you soooo much for deciding to SHOW ME, at such a late age in life too. How to understand life and the shades of gray that can complicate it... For that... I give you this song... enjoy.")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDsbcIWPENs&feature=related

English news media about Japan is written by a host of bitter gaijin whom complain about Japan but would never leave, westernized Japanese women disillusioned with their homeland, and other such colorful folk. (FUMIKO! Dude is calling you out woman! LOL!) Do you think these people are unbiased?!

(Have I given you the opinion that I think they are unbiased? Perhaps you've confused me with you? Thanks for telling me that people have bias in the world, perhaps you are talking to me like this because you think I'm a woman and don't understand the ways of the world? Perhaps you honestly believe that your tone can't be understood because it lacks any verbal cues here in cyberspace, but a false sense of concern is as easy to pick up as the fact that I have been unusually interested in this issue. But I have become more and more flippant about it as I have progressed. I've even laughed at it a number of times, because I've enjoyed watching this place for years and seeing that certain subjects and the reactions that they generate, are like predictable patterns in a poorly put together puzzle. And this subject? I've been waiting for someone like you and everyone else like you, because I actually want you to answer the question regarding the original poster.

Like I said before, anyone can pull sarcasm and stupidity out of the air. I know that people exist that have a bias or an axe-to-grind, but thanks for using your clearly objective position which is based on the "I'm tired of the fuckin foreigners talking shit about my country!"-stance. The bad part is that you may not even be Japanese. Regardless, it is... odd? You'd think since the United States and Japan are so close, we'd hear more good information instead of bad? But wait, it's the so-called good information that tends to cause blind Japanophilia and Yellow Fever, the virulent, Japanese strain! I had no idea that Japan didn't fail its students in high school. I still can't believe that one.

Is it the fact that... I've bothered to get this indepth about HOW CAN YOU CLAIM RAPE IS WRONG, BUT ALLOW PROFIT TO BE MADE OFF OF IT AS ENTERTAINMENT!? We can all sit around and have a pissin contest about the information, but the information was posted solely to show how on earth a country that claims rape is wrong, but puts together video games that walk a person through how to do it. And nowhere in anything that you wrote, did you even ATTEMPT to tie one, discrediting my information, with the other, these are NOT the things that lead to Japanese approval of rape games. But what I have posted, no matter how crap-tastic it is claimed to be, never mind your own response which gives life lessons and swears that no one else can possibly be right about Japan except for you and your approved, accredited sources. And... Forward me a PM with approved sources for information on Japan, I'd like that very much, seriously. I'd like to see what sources you quote and use. It's no different than Fumiko's forwarding of information or Miho's or anyone elses.

But what I have posted shows pretty quick that you can do such a thing to anyone who has no real power, and no real voice. You can also APPEASE by having people say publically, "It's wrong." While all of your behaviors CO-SIGN AND APPROVE. Now until you answer THAT and then EXPLAIN IT!? Since you are indeed the expert that I have actually been waiting for all this time, since I started replying to this thread. Until you speak up for your own culture, if you are even Japanese in the first place, and speak up for your own people and explain this? Then you can rave about ESA's (English Speaking Asshats) till the cows come home. You can talk about socio-economics which I've already set up in my posts as yet another reason why Japanese women can't get anywhere. Because the country itself isn't doing well as far as its economic status, which is why, just so you can see that I am NOT saying this because you offered me "your take on socio-economic insights".

But I did say early on that if these are the low expectations or the actual expectations for women!? Then STOP WASTING taxpayer money that could be shifted to the economy. I'm aware of the socioeconomics, thank you very much, but it still doesn't change my point. Solutions are NOT a strong suit in Japan, my proof? How long has this recession been going on in Japan and when EXACTLY, will it end? How many Prime Ministers have gone down in a flaming ball of fire because of how deep the problems are in Japan? So if they can't solve THAT problem THERE and its been how long? And are the EVIL WESTERNERS responsible for the current Prime Ministers low approval ratings too!? Perhaps it was Westerners that kept the Minister of Finance up all night so that he slurred and nodded off in front of hundreds of camera's? How exactly am I supposed to believe that a shift in the ideals, wants or desires, by Japanese women, is/was/will be or are going to be! Correctly and accurately, ADDRESSED. When you can't even get out of a recession that happened how long ago?)

Keep reading all you want about how bad and evil Japanese society is, from the frothing mouths of those bitter columnists, but it's not going to teach you anything about reality. (You've just taught me what exactly? With your A&W Root Beer FROTHY-MOUTH OF FROTHY-NESS! Bitter Japanese person claiming nothing is wrong, MOVE ALONG! It cuts both ways. But I do like how you try to cover any and all bases to discredit anyone and anybody who could potentially have something negative to say about Japan or the situation that it is in. It only lends to my point and certainly doesn't help yours. Then you say this next tidbit.)

Come here with all of your outspokenness and righteous desire to shake those dirty old men from power, and fight the good fight for those Japanese OL hotties! I'm sure you can orchestrate bra-burnings in Shibuya, mass demonstrations in Marunouchi, and the smashing of office coffee pots all around Tokyo.(You mistake concern and compassion for wanting to solve YOUR PROBLEMS. And note how your dismissive attitude MIRRORS that of Nakamura. It's actually funny, but sad. When I read your whole attempt at being sarcastic and funny, I said "Just reading this part is exactly the kind of disdain that the assemblyman had for even talking about the issue." Don't get carried away I don't live in Japan and I am aware of Westerners that run to Japan because they actually can't cut it where they were born at, however? YOU should be the one solving and addressing these issues if, like I said, these issues about Japan even actually apply to you. I'm aware and active in my own society and community so you needn't trouble yourself with more fake concern and sentimentality. My interest is in answering the original poster, nothing more. And the minute I posted I realized that at some point, at some time, I would encounter someone like you, so I made sure to set the table, to get your attention. Bad enough your late, worse than that you came through the door, DEMANDED PROOF FROM OTHER SOURCES!? BUT YOU'RE TOO TRIFFLING AND LAZY TO BRING YOUR OWN! SO WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT YOU THEN!?

Don't take the cowards way out and try to close down conversation because you don't like the light being cast on your country, if it is even actually your country. Post your information and stand-up for your culture and stop trying to dissuade me to talk about this issue. Post your facts to refute what I say, but don't try the party-line with me about whether or not I've been to Japan or haven't when you just said at the top of the post! That even those who have or have been to Japan or are Japanese. They are automatically seen as bitter or whatever for opening their mouths. Save your weak attempts to defend your culture or the culture you've embraced, but then while you were so angry the best you could come back with are accusations while you YOURSELF HAD NO PROOF TO EVEN BEGIN TO BACK UP YOUR STANCE...except for your own frothy-mouthed bitter bias.

You honestly believe that simply because YOU SAY, that's supposed to be enough to HALT the conversation. Well? Then you need to go to a Japanese only board then. Otherwise you come back on here and you post YOUR ARTICLES, YOUR EXPERTS, YOUR FACT-FINDINGS! And I will tell you right now... I would be MOST GRATEFUL FOR IT...! But this tired, retreaded style of evasion? Only makes you look like you have something to hide and REMEMBER... My points were made in regards to WHY WOULD JAPAN APPROVE A RAPE GAME. These posts were put up on here to explain that if women can't make the kind of headway they want in this aspect, then it shouldn't surprise you that it leads to legalized rape games and such. I'd also like to point out that I find it interesting that American media or Western media is supposedly sooooh biased, at least according to what I have read here, meanwhile the country in question has a history of trying to hide the truth or "conceal it" behind culture. Tell us and explain to us why Japanese society contradicts itself in this manner, but wonders why it is falling down. Otherwise...? Otherwise you're no better than the person you're accusing and telling to sit-down and shut-up.

[stsparky]

...We can all agree that it is retarded, but that doesn't answer Silent Dob's question on why it exits in the first place. This is what actually matters, why does it exist in the first place? We are aware that women are raped in non-Japanese societies, no one is questioning that and I already know by having read your other posts that you know that to, Sparky. We also know that Japanese women, not Asian ladies, are not submissive, but why does the stereotype persist? My point is that it is the Japanese themselves who create the stereotype and then deny it, especially when one finds out the reality of what happens when a Japanese couple gets married. I already knew that Japanese women run the household finances, because some members of my family and a few friends of my family, are married to Japanese women. What I have done, even when the posts may have been impossible to read or understand, even when it was "drivel". Is point out that, why wouldn't you have rape simulators in a society where women have no say or are just now finding their footing, let alone obtaining a voice that matters. Even if the majority of Japanese women like things the way that they are, they have no other options regardless.The hardest ballbreaker I ever met was Chinese. But she played the perceived stereotype to her advantage. My OL wife was a bookkeeper. She's very competent. A rape simulator is a bad thing, even as a fantasy cathartic release. Has anyone brought up Rapeman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rapeman) yet?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b1/Rapemancollage.jpg
For the sake of the argument for which I personally can't buy, assume the victim wants/needs/deserves it for a reason with a cultural context to it. This translates across many countries. You have heard the phrase "she was asking for it" or variants in our society. Evil bastards use rape and mutilation as tools of war and oppression. Can we agree it's bad and move past this?
So why wouldn't they withdraw to being housewives only when they go into work and it is made clear that this is now, phase two of find a husband so you can take your ass back to the house where you will finally have a purpose. Why would they wish to slave away when more than enough articles by Japanese and non-Japanese talk about the fact that, they are lauded with attention and praise as high school girls and younger, but then they have an expiration date of 25 in regards to being "marriable material". More importantly their desirablility falls off the older they get, which will quickly alienate a woman or spur her to haul ass as quickly as possible to find a man to become her husband. Why wouldn't it breed shrew like behavior, resentment, etc, as they are hearded along to hurry-up and find a mate at the pace of the male dominated society, the very same one that won't even adjust so that they will want to carry out their traditional Japanese roles as a housewife, willingly."Christmas cake" is a weird thing, it isn't akin to rape. And many women head to other countries to beat the concept to death. I'd say it is a pan-asian thing.
The rape simulator is okay because women in Japan haven't reached a point of being able to say that it is not okay with a company like Illusion making profit off of video games that, essentially walks the player through HOW to violate a woman and then okay it, by having her then be the one to expect him to force her to have an abortion. I don't believe what I just stated was murky or impossible to understand...No one here is saying the game is okay. It's horribly ill meant and sick.
And I'm not gonna touch the "sexy fun part"... I'll let that statement stand on its own merits.Heh - I'm one who would advocate approaching your dream lady and expressing your feelings. Best of luck with that. I'm boring and married now.

I - for one - would be happy if we closed the debate on the game and moved onto the different topics this question generated.

[mikem]

Also, what are the statistics for the number of Japanese men married to foreign women vs. the number of Japanese women married to foreign men?


Japanese men marrying foreign women is much higher. The government publishes statistics on this, but they are only counting couples living in Japan. (In case it might not be obvious almost all of these marriages are with asian wives.)

Edit: I found some old stats for ya. Check out this summary in English. (http://whatjapanthinks.com/2005/11/29/international-marriage-still-means-japanese-man-and-asian-woman/) In 2003 it was 27,881 Japanese men vs 8,158 Japanese women who were married to foreigners.

No one here is saying the game is okay. It's horribly ill meant and sick.

I think a few of us were suggesting that the violence of rape and the violence of murder are similar and that whitey should worry about cleaning up his own house before worrying about what the yellows are doing.

(I'm a nice white violence loving American myself and I don't get the rape thing, but there are plenty of Japanese that don't get the love of violence thing. We all just have our favorites I guess. 十人十色)

[ミュー]

I am not Japanese, but that does not change the reality that you (Silent Dob, Geese, etc.) have no perspective on this issue. Therefore your opinion can only be based upon English news sources. That makes you under-informed on the issue, automatically. I'm sorry but some of the things you say are tinged with anti-establishment rebel rousing and misinformation.

[geesehoward4life]

Don't be sorry, just move along at this point. You clearly have nothing to add.

[koku]

wow page 4 of this thread just got crazy. you three love birds have fun.

[Silent Dob]

Rapeman the Anime!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGkvlLKT9ig&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njBdLFt5H1I
----------------





Anyway, to sum it....

1. Japan is very sexist- just look at the "women only" train cars to keep them from getting fondled up.

2. Japan has a lot of sexual perversions- it's the land that invented (or at least popularized) bukkake, and even gave a name to it.

3. Rape or simulated rape is common in live-action pornos. Thus, this translates into animes and mangas and, of course, rape simulator videogames.

4. Japanese often make positive portrayals of the rape of rape victims and rapists themselves. (like women all falling in love with "Rape Man", other women falling in love in other mangas or the politician's comment about rapists having healthy sex drives) Also there's a demonization of rape victims, ie, "she totally deserved it" or "that slut was practically begging for it."

5. There's a market for it.

6. It gives Japanese men a sense of power, control and dominance.

7. Widespread availability and acceptance of it as a sexual fetish helps popularize it in Japan.

8. Rape still isn't treated as seriously as it should be Japan, given the 3-year sentencing given to a mass serial-rapist, and the lack of rape clinics.

9. People in Japan often cast blame on the victim, ie, "she deserved it."


So all of this basically explains the popularity and acceptance of rape games and positive portrayals of rape in other genres. Not all Japanese approve of this stuff (particularly women) but it's a problem that thankfully some Japanese are trying to address.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucie_Blackman#Background


Anyway the topic did get a little heated but I enjoyed the discussion and I feel like I have a much better understanding of why rape is such a big fetish in Japan.

Oh, and apologies to anyone I was rude to or insulted. Rape's really not something I approve of at all so talking about this subject kind of just set me off.

[Plekto]

Furthermore, the LDP quotes about women and childbirth are being taken out of context. Japan's birthrate is at an alarmingly low rate and politicians are scrambling to find a way to push citizens to have more children. The real reason for the low birthrate is contract workers, astronomical social and economic costs, and a lack of daycare facilities.


First off, cry me a river - look - a nation that actually is reducing its population! The planet is almost 3 billion people over its long-term carrying capacity if we're talking about any level of industrial activity. Less people is a GOOD thing.

Also, if they really were so concerned, they would have classes, courses, and support for any woman who gives birth. Like they do in the U.S., most of Europe, Australia, and so on. Yes, it's a financial burden, but it at least is consistent with their views. But to complain about it being low and then doing nothing about it other than continue to whine about it...

The real problem with their5 low birth rates are that they give no support for the potential new mothers. They don't even pay for the birth itself most of the time. Of course young people chose to eat and survive over having a child.

And the guy's comments weren't taken out of context. He's a tool, plain and simple. And the outrage by pretty much everyone in Japan with a conscience (let alone virtually every woman) pretty much settles it.

[ミュー]

1. Japan is very sexist- just look at the "women only" train cars to keep them from getting fondled up.

2. Japan has a lot of sexual perversions- it's the land that invented (or at least popularized) bukkake, and even gave a name to it.

4. Japanese often make positive portrayals of the rape of rape victims and rapists themselves.

6. It gives Japanese men a sense of power, control and dominance.
Japan is very sexist, has a lot of sexual perversions, makes rape sound okay, and its males all have an inferiority complex? These are some of the most hateful and racist statements I have ever read on this site. It is obviously your opinion, and yet you write it in a numbered list as if it were fact.

First off, cry me a river - look - a nation that actually is reducing its population!
No one is crying or whining. And:
Fertility rates are declining around in Europe, too! (http://migration.ucc.ie/images/chart4.gif)
This is not a Japan-specific phenomenon. The concern, as in the EU and many Asian nations, is that a declining birthrate will have negative consequences in terms of the labor force and social security. Politicians are trying to combat this, however Japanese politicians are only good for scandals as well as insensitive and disturbing remarks.

The real problem with their low birth rates are that they give no support for the potential new mothers. They don't even pay for the birth itself most of the time. Of course young people chose to eat and survive over having a child.
Free prenatal classes (http://www.city.shibuya.tokyo.jp/eng/prenatal.html)
50,000JPY for having a child (http://www.city.shibuya.tokyo.jp/eng/living/ehappy.html)

I am not trying to advocate rape here, but this circle jerk of "ooh look at how disgusting, racist, and sexist Japan is" needs to stop. If you're going to give your opinion, then fine. But all of this "this is this and that is that" nonsense is unbased, unfair, and a waste of time. It's obvious that there are some wannabe Gaijin knights in shining armor thinking they can save those poor Japanese damsels in distress from the evil, beady-eyed menfolk. All of this free-for-all bitching about Japan is coming from people that don't even live here! MNJetter, mikem, japanat, and myself live or lived here, and it shows in the distribution of opinions.

Rape this is a problem all over the world. Japan does not have a unique and special heritage of rape. The cases get publicized because of Japan's abnormally low crime rate.

Don't be sorry, just move along at this point. You clearly have nothing to add.
Here's the data:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#UN_Statistics
UN Crime Data Statistics/Rapes per 100,000 inhabitants in 2002
United States: 32.99
United Kingdom: 22.62
Canada: 77.64
Italy: 4.41
South Africa: 115.61
Japan: 1.85

http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_artcls/pornography/prngrphy_rape_jp.html

In sum, the concern that countries allowing pornography would show increased sex crime rates due to modeling or that adolescents in particular would be negatively vulnerable to and receptive to such models or the society would be otherwise adversely effected has not been vindicated. It is certainly clear from our data and analysis that a massive increase in available pornography in Japan has been correlated with a dramatic decrease in sexual crimes and most so among youngsters as perpetrators or victims. We have mentioned some possible influential factors.
You mentioned Ayako Uchiyama. The last paragraph in this study confirms that the high availability of pornography in Japan has coincided with a decreasing trend in rape and violent crime against women.

Question: Why does Japan approve of rape games?
Answer: Harm Reduction.

[Plekto]

This is not a Japan-specific phenomenon. The concern, as in the EU and many Asian nations, is that a declining birthrate will have negative consequences in terms of the labor force and social security. Politicians are trying to combat this, however Japanese politicians are only good for scandals as well as insensitive and disturbing remarks.

Big deal - in other words, the politicians are worried that their socialistic stack of cards which requires ever-increasing population until the end of TIME to keep working might actually collapse in upon itself. And as for labor, most companies are all too willing to outsource any jobs that they can't fill for a low enough price. Often there are plenty of unemployed in most nations that actually WANT work - but there's not enough. Less people would mean less unemployment.

The consequences of overpopulation are far more severe. Potentially game-ending for humanity, in fact. Everyone talks about global warming and yet the real danger is having so many people that the entire ecosystem collapses under the weight of their pollution and activity.


50,000JPY for having a child (http://www.city.shibuya.tokyo.jp/eng/living/ehappy.html)


Awesome! $500!
Um, how about free child care? Free food(WIC plus food stamps)? Free post-natal education? Free health care for the child until age 6 or 7? Large tax rebates? There are tons of services in the U.S. alone for new mothers. And that's not counting the 4-5 YEARS she gets to claim welfare(exception to the normal length is given to new mothers) as well as potential child support.

And that's not counting all the other support services for new mothers and parents. Of course, Europe from what I hear is even better.

Japan's not really trying. They lament their declining population and don't even try to make it a social stigma to have an abortion. Amazing, really, given how much Japanese society is ruled by such things.

[Silent Dob]

First off, Wikipedia can be wildly inaccurate and it's wrong a lot of the time.

Secondly, a large number of rapes in Japan go unreported due to shame and social stigmas- consider the "Super" group and how they went a serial-raping for over a decade, and that the vast majority of their victims never came forward.

Also, it's not like the Japanese sit around saying, "I do say, why, if we allow porno videogames which allow you to play as a rapist who rapes women we shall reduce crime, what, what." They're approved because people don't care about them (like the comic/movie "Rapeman") and cause people like to get off on them.

And even if Japan does have a lower rape rate then some nations that does not automatically mean that rape videogames causes that. It's like saying Karl Marx had a beard, therefore people with beards are Communists. A doesn't always equal B. There are many factors involved, the same which gives Japan such a high suicide rate. Japan's not the peaceful, wonder utopia you make it out to be, where rape pornos magically solve all of society's problems.

And I don't buy that porn stops people from acting out sexually in Japan- again, look at the seperate train cars for women to keep them from getting fondled porn. No amount of porn stopped countless Japanese men from fondling up women on the trains

[mikem]

Secondly, a large number of rapes in Japan go unreported due to shame and social stigmas- consider the "Super" group and how they went a serial-raping for over a decade, and that the vast majority of their victims never came forward.


A large number of rapes in America so unreported for the same reasons. Even if can come up with some magical number to represent the unreported rapes for both countries you aren't going to find Japan to be off the chart.

I also love how you guys think this is a one-sided problem. Guys are not the only people on the planet having rape-like fantasies. Of course women aren't promoting rape, but a lot of them promote the status quo of men dominating women sexually.


No amount of porn stopped countless Japanese men from fondling up women on the trains

It also doesn't prevent foreigners from doing it. On the other hand it also doesn't prevent a small minority from enjoying it. (And I still don't entirely understand what prevents someone from creating the phrase "Stopping touch me asshole!" in Japanese.)

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

I am not trying to advocate rape here, but this circle jerk of "ooh look at how disgusting, racist, and sexist Japan is" needs to stop. If you're going to give your opinion, then fine. But all of this "this is this and that is that" nonsense is unbased, unfair, and a waste of time. It's obvious that there are some wannabe Gaijin knights in shining armor thinking they can save those poor Japanese damsels in distress from the evil, beady-eyed menfolk. All of this free-for-all bitching about Japan is coming from people that don't even live here! MNJetter, mikem, japanat, and myself live or lived here, and it shows in the distribution of opinions.

Well said! But as far as the numbers of rapes reported in Japan, I do agree that is probably a lot higher than reported.


(And I still don't entirely understand what prevents someone from creating the phrase "Stopping touch me asshole!" in Japanese.)

Honestly, I think the reason you hear about gropings being such a problem in Japan is because a lot of women do just put up with it. In the U.S., a man grabbed my ass as I walked by him on a street in the late evening on the weekend. He was with his friends, and they were all obviously drunk. I turned around, walked right up to him and yelled at him. I told his friends to tell me his name so I could call the police and press charges, because that was not in anyway cool. They yelled at him too, and made a big enough scene where he apologized to me and I let him off the hook.

I have never seen a Japanese girl do anything of the sort. It's kind of a chicken-or-the-egg argument, do the men grope because the women don't say anything or do the women not say anything because the men grope all the time?

As a woman living in Japan, I can admit that I've had my fair share of bad experiences. But honestly, it's not any worse than when I lived in a big city in the U.S. I get more attention here because I'm foreigner, but other than that it's the same.

Oh, and for the record, my Japanese husband is a kind, gentle and very generous lover.

[ミュー]

Often there are plenty of unemployed in most nations that actually WANT work - but there's not enough. Less people would mean less unemployment.
This is incorrect. There's many different kinds of unemployment; frictional, structural, seasonal, and cyclical. The natural rate of unemployment exists because there are many reasons why some people can't/won't find work. In Japan, for instance, there are a massive amount of vacant positions in the caregiving industry for obvious reasons. Hello Work, a government-funded job matching agency that is free to use, offers the unemployed a vast database of potential jobs. The government also requires those who receive unemployment benefits to use this service.

I've been to Hello Work and scanned through the database. The highest paying and most numerous positions are in caregiving. These are jobs with no qualifications and a wage 1.5x other options. Still, by and large, the unemployed avoid selecting this kind of work. As in the USA and other developed nations, the unemployed would rather have the government support them than actually work for a living.

In effect, Japan and other developed nations need a larger workforce combined with immigration from developing countries.
1. Japan must accept 60,900 immigrants per year to keep the size of 1995-level workforce
2. 10 million immigrants per year to keep the 1995 level of dependency ratio (48 persons: 1 retiree)
Therefore: by 2050, 18% of Japanese population will be an immigrant or descendants
The consequences of overpopulation are far more severe. Potentially game-ending for humanity, in fact. Everyone talks about global warming and yet the real danger is having so many people that the entire ecosystem collapses under the weight of their pollution and activity.
Unless my professor lied about that Ph.D. from Harvard or those years working for the International Labor Organization (ILO) then your doomsday theory is plain wrong.

---

The $500 was just an example. The Japanese government pays for 70% of medical costs incurred during pregnancy. Japan has a National Health Plan, while the United States does not.

And that's not counting all the other support services for new mothers and parents. Of course, Europe from what I hear is even better.

Japan's not really trying. They lament their declining population and don't even try to make it a social stigma to have an abortion. Amazing, really, given how much Japanese society is ruled by such things.
And what do all of those European social welfare benefits do for the birth rate?
Birth Rate Map of the World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_net_birth_rate_2007.png)
(Source Data) (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2054.html)
Let's compare Japan with Sweden, the most famous example of a comprehensive social welfare state in the EU. Sweden's birth rate in 2008 was 10.15 births per 100,000 population, compared with Japan's 7.87. Looks like being the #1 social welfare state in the world just isn't trying hard enough either to support those mothers.

Before the spread of social welfare systems, which started with the New Deal, the only benefit of childbirth was the resultant child. The declining birthrate in Japan and the rest of the developed world is not sexism, but rather wealth and education. White collar families do not benefit directly from childbirth, it might as well be seen as a luxury to 'be able' to have children. Because middle class families no longer directly benefit from the assistance of their children as the agricultural families of previous centuries did, there is no longer a necessity to have many. Childbirth is a cost to these families that increases exponentially with each newly born.

Developing countries have higher birthrates because agricultural and blue collar families benefit from having more children they can put to work. That's also why there are child labor problems in that same group of countries.

Those are the facts. Japan has a fertility problem and it's trying to combat this like all of the other developed nations. It can be said that not enough is being done, but there is no precedent that such measures would come to fruition. Feel free to try and discredit me, but I study this subject very seriously and have my opinions as a result of constant immersion and researching information.

[blank slate]

I just thought I would chime in about the birth rate, something I remember from my Environmental Science class. I know that societies go through certain stages, from agricultural all the way to industrial.

One of the substages of the industrial stage is where children are seen as a hindrance, something that will get in the way of people's careers and cost a lot of money. Seems to me as if Japan and other EU nation are in this substage. I can't remember the name of the cycle, though.

[MNJetter]

Honestly, I think the reason you hear about gropings being such a problem in Japan is because a lot of women do just put up with it. In the U.S., a man grabbed my ass as I walked by him on a street in the late evening on the weekend. He was with his friends, and they were all obviously drunk. I turned around, walked right up to him and yelled at him. I told his friends to tell me his name so I could call the police and press charges, because that was not in anyway cool. They yelled at him too, and made a big enough scene where he apologized to me and I let him off the hook.
I have to agree with this one. I've actually been groped as many times in the United States as I have in Japan (once each). And in Japan, all it took was me turning around and glaring at the guy to get him to slink off.

Also, groping on trains is a problem in New York, too. Japan's not the only place with this phenomenon.

[Plekto]

This is incorrect. There's many different kinds of unemployment; frictional, structural, seasonal, and cyclical. The natural rate of unemployment exists because there are many reasons why some people can't/won't find work. In Japan, for instance, there are a massive amount of vacant positions in the caregiving industry for obvious reasons. Hello Work, a government-funded job matching agency that is free to use, offers the unemployed a vast database of potential jobs. The government also requires those who receive unemployment benefits to use this service.

I've been to Hello Work and scanned through the database. The highest paying and most numerous positions are in care giving. These are jobs with no qualifications and a wage 1.5x other options. Still, by and large, the unemployed avoid selecting this kind of work. As in the USA and other developed nations, the unemployed would rather have the government support them than actually work for a living.

In effect, Japan and other developed nations need a larger workforce combined with immigration from developing countries.


No, they need to cut the slackers lose and force them to work. The problem with the current economic theories that appear to literally be unraveling if you haven't noticed, is that they requite an ever-larger new generation to fleece/soak for money to pay for the care of the current one.

It's a vicious cycle where as soon as they stop growing, the entire economy implodes. That's a really bad way to run things in the long run. They don't need more workers, they need less hand holding and less slackers.

And as for the comparison to Sweden, it's not really valid because Japan is currently what spot in the world's economy? Sweden is? Japan is a massive industrialized nation and is doing the bare minimum to make its goal of an ever-increasing workforce(bad or not, they want this) happen. If you decreased Japan's abortion rate to the rate in the U.S., that would solve their problem right there.

[atomiton]

I'm not going to read all the replies, so forgive me in advance for talking about something that may have been talked about before.

But on the topic of mothers working... what exactly is wrong with the profession of child-rearing, especially, if it's your OWN child?

Some may call me traditional, but I prefer the term, rational.

Using a daycare to raise children is irresponsible.

What children need, more than more toys and games, is time, love and attention from their parents. A generation of kids raised by the local daycare is NOT an optimal solution. Sure, there are unfortunately single parents families, which, necessitate this arrangement, but when you have two middle-income wage earners working for their child[ren]'s future, and paying a daycare to raise the kids, something is wrong.

Parents these days seem to think that what their kids need are all the things they want to project onto their kids. So they work to have the money to send their kids to camp, music lessons, soccer practice, etc. instead of spending time with them.

Of course, if you actually ask parents if they would give up their career or their children first... they'll ALWAYS say they'll keep their children... however, every morning they drop their kids off at daycare, by their actions, they're consciously making that decision, in my opinion.

It's not that I blame parents completely for this one. For the most part, society rewards double-income families who pay others to raise their kids. Tax benefits for child-care, work-benefits for child-care. You never see a "stay-at-home-and-raise-you-kids-properly-yourself" tax credit.

If it costs significantly more to fight against this. If everyone around you has gone to a double income lifestyle... it's difficult to go against.

For this reason, I applaud Japan for promoting mothers to not work while raising children. At LEAST for the first 5 years of a child's development, one parent should stay at home.

Note, whether it's the father or mother staying at home, it doesn't matter, though in almost every culture, you can safely say more women would prefer the man be the breadwinner, if there is to be one a single-income family.

Note, I can't speak to gay couples, as that's an edge case and does not represent the norm... and the family unit would have a totally different dynamic anyhow. In any case, they can't procreate without outside assistance.

As a sidenote. A co-worker once said to me that her children were begging her to work part-time. For a while she was working from home and her children enjoyed it. She told them they couldn't afford to send them to toys/camp/soccer/etc. if she did so. They said they'd rather spend time with her and have less stuff. I'm not saying children should dictate what's best for themselves. But oftentimes, well-meaning parents are pressured into thinking that what their children need are things that can be bought... as opposed to something that can only be spent. Time.

[MNJetter]

Atomiton, you seem to be working under the assumption that sending your child to daycare will yield a negative result. Or at least, will be more likely to yield a negative result than having a parent at home to keep the child there. That's a pretty big assumption. The fear that childcare might be damaging to children began in the 1960s with a boom of women in the workplace, and after nearly 50 years, still has yet to be scientifically substantiated.

[Jetsetlemming]

Studies have shown that level of parental involvement is a very poor indicator of how a kid'll turn out. We're more a product of our environments at large that just our parent's teachings. Being at day care may be a less "loving" environment, but it's a far more social one. Different benefits for a learning child, not a direct loss.

[Jetsetlemming]

First off, cry me a river - look - a nation that actually is reducing its population! The planet is almost 3 billion people over its long-term carrying capacity if we're talking about any level of industrial activity.
No it's not. Almost a third of the world's population (six billion and change, so around two billion people) would be unsustainable if it weren't for modern developments in agriculture and farming. These people are coincidentally in India, South America, and Africa- not fucking Japan. We're over the sustainable capacity of organic farming. We're nowhere near the limit if we don't ignore priceless advancements in human technology made in the last 50 years.

[Plekto]

But non-organic farming, even with the best technology leads to eventual pollution and damage that can't be easily undone. It just builds up and then one day we find that the oceans just went dead.(for instance). Oops - sucks to be any large life form...

[MNJetter]

I think it's interesting how all the arguments against overpopulation are based on saving our species, but the arguments against underpopulation are all based on saving the economy. No economy will last forever, but they'll last a lot longer if we're there to keep it going.

[Roxie]

Why the fuck are we talking about Sweden?

[MNJetter]

Because rape is related to childcare....somehow :P

The discussion just went off on a series of loosely related tangents, as threads often do when the main topic falls prey to a flame war, or people just run out of new things to say about it. In this case, I think a bit of both.

[SlickWilly440]

Getting back to the original topic, have any of you actually played this game called "Rapelay"? Normally, the description and complaints of games like these don't actually equal the extremity in which the product is criticized. Meaning, this game probably isn't as horrible as it's described to be. So instead of judging this book (pc game) by it's cover, why not take an unbiased view and give this game a try.

[mikem]

Getting back to the original topic, have any of you actually played this game called "Rapelay"?

I played another game by the same company. The quality is so poor I quickly deleted it.

My guess is that if you don't read the Japanese it'll just seem silly and unimpressive. On the other hand I'm guessing the dialog is pretty disturbing.

[stsparky]

Why the fuck are we talking about Sweden?
Better porn and health care.

[Roxie]

Because rape is related to childcare....somehow :P

The discussion just went off on a series of loosely related tangents, as threads often do when the main topic falls prey to a flame war, or people just run out of new things to say about it. In this case, I think a bit of both.
I know :)

It was just so odd, I had to point it out.

[h2orowe]

Why the fuck are we talking about Sweden?
Sweden (and Swede) are always relevant.

[Roxie]

Swede.
relevant to your interests, huh?

Yeah, baby.

[ミュー]

No, they need to cut the slackers lose and force them to work. The problem with the current economic theories that appear to literally be unraveling if you haven't noticed, is that they requite an ever-larger new generation to fleece/soak for money to pay for the care of the current one.
The current financial crisis didn't really unravel any economic theories. It only unraveled the financial insiders' premonition that their gross data inflation and manipulation would continue to artificially maximize profits. If there were no major corporations to "fleece the masses" then America wouldn't be an economic power. Funds backing welfare services for the elderly and newborns come from the same taxpayers. Governments need an expanding tax base to sustain these welfare services. A call to the end of population growth is calling for the end of economic and social welfare.

And as for the comparison to Sweden, it's not really valid because Japan is currently what spot in the world's economy? Sweden is? Japan is a massive industrialized nation and is doing the bare minimum to make its goal of an ever-increasing workforce(bad or not, they want this) happen. If you decreased Japan's abortion rate to the rate in the U.S., that would solve their problem right there.
By doing what, criminalizing it? A grand moment in women's and civil rights that would be. Abortion is necessary to prevent pregnancy among those who don't want/can't sustain having children. There would be an instant welfare crisis in nine months.

I find high rates of hypocrisy among those who condemn rape yet think victims should father the perpetrator's child. Simply considering the psychological implications is troubling. Even in non-rape cases, women are oftentimes put into compromising situations involving unwanted pregnancy. Even as developed nations want an increased birth rate, it should occur because of an increase in willing families. Children should not be born into such adverse situations.

[Jetsetlemming]

But non-organic farming, even with the best technology leads to eventual pollution and damage that can't be easily undone. It just builds up and then one day we find that the oceans just went dead.(for instance). Oops - sucks to be any large life form...
Organic farming takes up far more land to create less food slower, resulting in razing of forests in the third world, is non-sustainable in poor countries that can't afford the farming techniques to replenish soil quality like growing soy, resulting in abandoned farms, less food, and even more wasted land, and it uses boatloads of "organic" far less efficient pesticides and fertilizers which you're kidding yourself if you think are any better for the environment. It pollutes more and feeds less, and impacts the environment in a bigger way.
There's widespread razing of rain forest and wildlife in South America and Africa to make room for organic low tech farms, because old farm land is unsustainable and current working organic farms can't provide the required amount of food. You have to be fucking retarded to ignore the environmental effects of that.

[Plekto]

Yes, they are doing damage to the rain forests, but you paint a false choice here. It's not use hazardous chemicals and techniques or kill all the rain forests. In fact, the people in the areas in question can't even afford the chemicals and fancy crops. They're doing it whether it's natural or industrial farming that's involved. It's a completely separate problem that is not about what type of farming is involved but instead, the lack of ethics and responsibility of the people doing it.

[archdukezeb]

From rape games to rain forests. Hmmm....

[mikem]

The problem with the current economic theories that appear to literally be unraveling if you haven't noticed.

No, actually economic theories that are 100 years old are model the current situation quite nicely. Politicians are the ones making bad decision after bad decision.

A good example is all of these bail out packages. Bush makes a huge mistake and signs a massive economic bail-out. Obama then turns around and does the exact same thing. Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot.

(For all those that have never taken economics or didn't understand the basics ... when the government spends money it doesn't leave any for private investment which is precisely what drives economies. This is the whole Y = (C + I + G + NX) for those who need a refresher.)

[Jetsetlemming]

Yes, they are doing damage to the rain forests, but you paint a false choice here. It's not use hazardous chemicals and techniques or kill all the rain forests. In fact, the people in the areas in question can't even afford the chemicals and fancy crops. They're doing it whether it's natural or industrial farming that's involved. It's a completely separate problem that is not about what type of farming is involved but instead, the lack of ethics and responsibility of the people doing it.
It's called the Green Revolution, these techniques and the product of them are being spread across the Third world by First world goodwill, with plenty of protestation of ignorant fuckers like you.
There is nothing hazardous or harmful about non-organic farming that isn't the same as organic farming. Just because you call something "organic" does not mean it's "safe". Ever heard of poison ivy? Mercury? Lead? Asbestos? Plague? Smallpox? "Organic" is a bullshit buzzword that means nothing at best and at worst archaic farming and ranching techniques resulting in inferior product, greater pollution, wasted space, increased starvation, and animal abuse (You can't give a sick cow medicine and still be "Organic").

[MNJetter]

Hey, call organic farming whatever you want, but leave "inferior product" out of it. I find myself gravitating towards the organic section all the time, not because of any environmental qualms specifically, but because the fruits and vegetables sold there have tons more flavor during the off-season. Non-organic farming allows for techniques such as using lamps and chemicals to make a product look ripe on the outside before it's actually ripe on the inside. Even in the summer, non-organic peaches are tasteless and mushy, while the organic ones (at the same store) have tons of flavor and a nice texture.

Organic and non-organic farming may be about the same when it comes to environmental harm, but at least organic farming precludes a lot of the measures that big corporate farms can take to sacrifice quality for quantity.

[Jetsetlemming]

Organic farms ARE big corporate farms. The same food companies run both- non-organic for sensible people and organic for the deceived hippie niche.
Your anecdotes are just that. I've never ran into any problems with normally grown fruit or veggies.

[akitaka]

From rape games to rain forests. Hmmm....

Sorry for not checking this section earlier, but yeah, if we're derailing either we start a new topic or dare I say continue with the thread topic. It's very mind-bending when you read 'rape' only to see a debate about organic products on the end-page.

Plekto, you're very informative, but don't get too excited. The last few pages were good reads, though, I'm liking myuu's input on this.

[MNJetter]

Sorry, didn't mean to say that organic farms weren't big corporate farms. Just that organic farming techniques prevent the big corporations from taking the shortcuts they want.

It could be something regional. But I refuse to believe that my anecdotes are indicitive of some sort of freak incidence limited to my own experience. Four out of five grocery stores in my area are the same way. Organic foods taste like they do at the farmer's markets. Non-organic foods sometimes (not always) taste bland and have poor texture, like they've been partially cooked. Especially during the off-season. And the one grocery store that doesn't taste like that is a high-end grocer that caters to a wealthier crowd, and all their stuff is better quality.

You may have had different experiences from me, but you're no more of an expert than I am. Are you a farmer? Did you major in agricultural studies? No? I don't appreciate being called "decieved" or talked down to. You have no idea the extent of my experiences, and unless you live in Minnesota, I doubt you've even been to the same grocery stores I have. And making assumptions with no information is just as dangerous as being given false information.

[SlickWilly440]

Trying to get back on topic again. If more people knew the correct methods and ways to communicate with the opposite sex and how to get what they were after in a non forceful manner, then less rape would occur.

With that said, people could be divided into three groups. The first group knows the proper channels to go through to get what they want from the opposite sex without force, but through consent. The second group tries or don't try different approaches to get what they want, so they end up just satisfying their own needs, instead of harming an individual. The third group will result to force/rape to get what they want.

What needs to happen is for the third group to become part of the second group. The best case scenario would be if the second and third group could join the ranks of the first group. In the worst case, the second group will join the ranks of the third group because the second group can go either way.

[MNJetter]

...what?

[SlickWilly440]

^
Yeah, I'm not quite sure what I'm trying to say either; something along the lines of knowing how to have a healthy relationship can reduce rape.

Someone else should try getting back on the original topic

[Silent Dob]

Please make a separate topic on other stuff if you want.


I really am curious about what the deal is with rape games in Japan and I'm still not entirely satisfied with the responses and I think there's more that could be learned. A part of me wishes Az would post here, though maybe he's afraid of alienating his Japanese fans by getting into a touchy subject like this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58a0pcI6bYo


"The Rape Signal"


Lol, the Japanese are completely fucking crazy....

[ミュー]

Organic farms ARE big corporate farms. The same food companies run both- non-organic for sensible people and organic for the deceived hippie niche.
Your anecdotes are just that. I've never ran into any problems with normally grown fruit or veggies.
I know where you're coming from, but this is not the case.

There is a difference between organic and non-organic products. Organic products are a high-end take on consumer oriented food and produce. Whether it's "110% organic sprinkled with all-natural fairy dust" is irrelevant to me, but I can notice a difference in the products' taste. People who buy organic choose to do so. Therefore, in order to make a lucrative business out of it, the product has to be of superior quality. Free-range chicken eggs have a nice color to them and have a fuller taste than regular eggs.
Ultimately, the quality control expected by a proclaimed superior product becomes the deciding factor. I'm sure that some misinformed people buy organic products out of paranoia, that they will get ebola if their chicken wasn't given a daily jog and powerbar. That does not make the product they purchase bad. The market economy allows for people to purchase as they please, and businesses will continue to offer whatever is in demand. I, for one, will continue to purchase organic eggs and occasionally other such items because I like to eat tasty food.

---

Trying to get back on topic again. If more people knew the correct methods and ways to communicate with the opposite sex and how to get what they were after in a non forceful manner, then less rape would occur.
So basically what you want to say is:
(1) Can find consensual sex partner
(2) May have problems finding a partner, but don't resort to violence
(3) Think no partner is possible, and are prone to prostitution, chikan, and rape

This would make it a topic in psychology. Japanese are prone to self-categorization, so this theory could hold true on some levels. For one, this does not take into consideration those who have a partner but still have such desires. Most accused of chikan have wives but still want to feel up younger women. I do not know if this is the case with rape.

From my own research on the uberlist of Japanese crime data (2007 data, Japanese-only (http://www.npa.go.jp/toukei/keiji36/h19hanzai.htm)), it looks like there were 1,281 reported rape cases (949 offenders), and 1,180 of those cases were committed by single offenders. 81 of those arrested were minors, 69 were the sole offenders.

Compare with this (http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_artcls/pornography/prngrphy_rape_jp.html) study:
The incidence of rape has progressively declined from 4677 reported cases with 5464 offenders in 1972 to the 1995 incidence of 1500 cases with 1,160 offenders; a dramatic reduction in incidence of some two-thirds. The character of the rape also changed markedly. Early in our period of observation many of the rapes were gang (more than a single attacker) rapes thus accounting for the number of offenders exceeding the number of rapes reported. This has now become increasingly rare. The number of rapes committed by juveniles has also markedly decreased. Juveniles committed 33% of the rapes in 1972 but only 18% of the rapes committed in 1995.

Seeing as how the majority of rape simulation games have likely come into production in the 1995-2007 period, I find this data to confirm that the fantasy of rape games has played a role in reducing actual rape. Also note the popularity of gang rape and train rape among themes in rape pornography (Google it if you must). 92% of rape cases in 2007 were committed by single offenders, and there were 0 reported cases by the train police force.

[Jetsetlemming]

Sorry, didn't mean to say that organic farms weren't big corporate farms. Just that organic farming techniques prevent the big corporations from taking the shortcuts they want.

It could be something regional. But I refuse to believe that my anecdotes are indicitive of some sort of freak incidence limited to my own experience. Four out of five grocery stores in my area are the same way. Organic foods taste like they do at the farmer's markets. Non-organic foods sometimes (not always) taste bland and have poor texture, like they've been partially cooked. Especially during the off-season. And the one grocery store that doesn't taste like that is a high-end grocer that caters to a wealthier crowd, and all their stuff is better quality.

You may have had different experiences from me, but you're no more of an expert than I am. Are you a farmer? Did you major in agricultural studies? No? I don't appreciate being called "decieved" or talked down to. You have no idea the extent of my experiences, and unless you live in Minnesota, I doubt you've even been to the same grocery stores I have. And making assumptions with no information is just as dangerous as being given false information.
I actually did take agricultural studies, horticulture, and animal science in highschool. I was a member of the FFA, too. I'd never actually make a career out of it, but it's a hobby and a topic of interest, I have a garden in my yard and grow peppers and some other small things. Norman Borlaug is kinda my personal hero, dude's saved over a billion lives with non-organic and GMO farming.
I wasn't trying to claim my anecdotes were better or more plausible than yours, though your mention of getting the fruit in the off-season is probably a better explanation of why it was crap than it being non-organic.
I don't really have a problem with organic fruits and veggies grown locally for people who have the choice and want one thing or another. Whatever, its your money. I have a huge problem with trying to push that crap on the third world, or arguing that non-organic is somehow toxic, dangerous, more pollutant, or will somehow ruin the earth, and I have a big problem with non-organic animal products like meat and milk because it means basically abusing the farm animals and refusing to give them any sort of medicine or aid when they're sick or injured.

[akitaka]

One more and I'll just start deleting posts. Start it in GD quoting where you and whoever you are responding to left off, and please feel free to keep the ball rolling, just not here. I will add that in a way this is like the current topic of vaccination paranoia spread through unreliable, syndicated info rather than facts unhinged by crude guesswork and hype. But what do I know, I really haven't looked into the matter enough to say much more.

==
I think there's more that could be learned
If you have any specific questions that haven't been addressed just toss them out instead of pretending to be indecisive. All that I've read from your posts so far isn't really an interest in the sociopathic issues of rape/misogyny (of which are generally more pertinent to the subject matter) but the pop-culture associated with this, i.e. things that you find quirky and interesting but with no genuine concern over its existence. I don't think that Az could add anymore than he's already mentioned in the past about men and women in Japan; aside from this your evident bias of the things about Japan that 'sickens' you (past post about porking your pork, however silly as it sounds) makes me wonder why you even gander at the country's dark spots in the first place. In a country where it's normal to turn the other way instead of get flustered enough to rally against certain material, you're bound to have many strange and ugly things published openly enough to reach people even if they're aren't quite looking for it.

[ミュー]

If you have any specific questions that haven't been addressed just toss them out instead of pretending to be indecisive. All that I've read from your posts so far isn't really an interest in the sociopathic issues of rape/misogyny (of which are generally more pertinent to the subject matter) but the pop-culture associated with this, i.e. things that you find quirky and interesting but with no genuine concern over its existence. I don't think that Az could add anymore than he's already mentioned in the past about men and women in Japan; aside from this your evident bias of the things about Japan that 'sickens' you (past post about porking your pork, however silly as it sounds) makes me wonder why you even gander at the country's dark spots in the first place. In a country where it's normal to turn the other way instead of get flustered enough to rally against certain material, you're bound to have many strange and ugly things published openly enough to reach people even if they're aren't quite looking for it.
Isn't it apparent that the OP is only satisfied by replies to the tune of "ololol japanese people are all rapists!!1"

Honestly, some of the posts in this topic reek of bullshit. The facts prove that rape simulation games can be seen as a form of harm reduction. I'm sure the publishing companies were not thinking about helping rape victims in releasing this media, but it has obviously had that effect. The Japanese Police Agency take yearly data and analyze the statistics religiously. I have posted the results above, and it concludes that rape offenses are decreasing.

With this information, making it a crime to publish and/or sell media depicting acts of rape would simply lead to more cases of it in real life. Therefore it remains legal, and those who would be potential criminals otherwise can enjoy their fantasies, however sick, safely and legally.

That is why Japan approves of rape games. I've said it before, and I'll say it a million damn times. The Japanese government is not concerned with your puritanical morals, absolutist way of thinking, or best intentions.

[Silent Dob]

"All that I've read from your posts so far isn't really an interest in the sociopathic issues of rape/misogyny (of which are generally more pertinent to the subject matter) but the pop-culture associated with this, i.e. things that you find quirky and interesting but with no genuine concern over its existence."

Actually, I am concerned and it does bother me that the Japanese produce so much porn which glorifies and fetishizes rape.



"I don't think that Az could add anymore than he's already mentioned in the past about men and women in Japan; aside from this your evident bias of the things about Japan that 'sickens' you (past post about porking your pork, however silly as it sounds)"

Porking your pork? I never said that.


In any case I'm Taiwanese-American. (Taiwanese technically being ethnically Chinese) Japan has some nice things but there are some very dark things to it too. I am really disgusted by how venomously they behaved during World War 2- notably the rape of Nanjing- and their arrogant and condescending refusal to acknowledge their sins and apologize for them.

Yes, that was long ago, but why the fuck is Japan to far stuck up it's own ass to confess and apologize?

Now years later, what do I find out? That Japan sells and produces rape porn which fetishizes and glorifies it. Gee, maybe that explains the mass-rapings by the Japanese armies and their exploitation of sex slave "comfort women"? For all I know Japan's possibly had massive rape porn for decades or centuries.

Of course I'm mad about that, and considering what they did in Nanjing, that is something that makes me wonder the relation between the two.

Some of my posts have been silly or rude to Japan but it's because of what they did to China- not just that, but the fact that decades later they still cover up what they did.

I know some people here think rape porn is awesome and tie it to stopping rape, but I don't. It reinforces sexist and perverted thoughts in Japan, of which there already far too many. And again, A doesn't necessarily equal B, there could be other factors involved in rape reduction.

Also, it's been proven via Super Free and how long they were able to operate that many, many, MANY female rape victims do not come forward for a number of reasons, something to be considered when looking at rape statistics in Japan.

And by the logic of the poster above me, countries should produce pornos where children get raped in the hopes that it'll stop child molestors.




"Isn't it apparent that the OP is only satisfied by replies to the tune of "ololol japanese people are all rapists!!1"

Ah, the old typing like JeffK to mock people, that was really cute.... like 6 years ago. Now it's stupid and annoying and used by obnoxious people.


And what you say may not be true today, but for the hundreds of thousands or millions of Japanese men who served Imperial Japan during WW2- it was very true. Even women they "loved" they allowed to be raped. Literally, the vast majority of them all engaged in rape. American soldiers did not all do that and yet, our country doesn't have loads of porn glorifying rape. Perhaps we'd be a better society if we did, as some here believe.


And to the poster above, you're right- rape porn wasn't created as public service. It was created to fulfill a fetish market, one which has proven more than profitable enough in Japan for it to keep continuing.



"makes me wonder why you even gander at the country's dark spots in the first place."

Again, the rape of Nanjing and their conduct during WW2, and their coverup and denial of their conduct is what made me wonder.


Apologies to anyone I may have offended, I've never had trouble on this board or anyone here before but rape and Japan are just two topics which when combined really, really set me off.

[Jetsetlemming]

I don't think Japan's any more or less tolerant of rape porn than the US is. We just don't make and sell videogame versions, but we're far behind on making videogame versions of things. I hear Japan has a very successful series of super accurate train conductor sims with accurate recreation of Japanese train stations and rail lines, not to mention stuff like Steel Battalion and Seaman.

[Plekto]

Actually, I am concerned and it does bother me that the Japanese produce so much porn which glorifies and fetishizes rape.


Then don't move to Japan.

[Knife-Fingered Sue Sanderson]

In any case I'm Taiwanese-American. (Taiwanese technically being ethnically Chinese) Japan has some nice things but there are some very dark things to it too. I am really disgusted by how venomously they behaved during World War 2- notably the rape of Nanjing- and their arrogant and condescending refusal to acknowledge their sins and apologize for them.

Yes, that was long ago, but why the fuck is Japan to far stuck up it's own ass to confess and apologize?


...
Some of my posts have been silly or rude to Japan but it's because of what they did to China- not just that, but the fact that decades later they still cover up what they did.



Ok, time for history lessons! I wrote my undergrad thesis on Sino-Japanese relations after WWII, so I think most people are confused by the whole "apology" issue.

When Japan surrendered and America began it's occupation, the U.S. decided that in order to re-build the country there needed to be some serious re-programing of the people. A lot of the Japanese people were depressed about the war, and poor and hungry. The U.S. started feeding them the idea that they were the victims of war-mongering generals. This image of the victim helped the Japanese people overcome what happened. The U.S. tried really hard to make Japan strong (not in a military sense, of course) because they needed an ally/port for the rest of Asia, particularly to watch over China and Korea.

The U.S., and subsequently Japan, stopped all formal relations with China. Japan focused the first 20-some years after the war on re-building their country, and were basically not allowed to talk to China. Then, both the U.S. and Japan started relations again in the 1970's, a full generation after the war. Many people honestly forgot or were never taught what really happened because they were told that everything wasn't their fault.

Anyway, you can look up more information on all this yourself, but I just want to let you know there's way more going on than just Japan being "too far stuck up it's own ass to confess and apologize"

Besides, what country doesn't revise their history and sweep the bad things under the rug? Being an American, I'm sure you were taught ALL about what we did to the Native Americans, and our imperialism in the Philippines during the 18th century.

[SlickWilly440]

Being an American, I'm sure you were taught ALL about what we did to the Native Americans, and our imperialism in the Philippines during the 18th century.

Now only if we were not taught about slavery, the slate would be wipped clean.

[blank slate]

Besides, what country doesn't revise their history and sweep the bad things under the rug? Being an American, I'm sure you were taught ALL about what we did to the Native Americans, and our imperialism in the Philippines during the 18th century.Actually, yes, I did learn about this in school. A LOT. Go ahead and throw Hawaii in there, too.

[Jetsetlemming]

I've actually never heard any details about the Philippines besides that it was a US territory of some sort.

[akitaka]

Actually, I am concerned and it does bother me that the Japanese produce so much porn which glorifies and fetishizes rape.
You've already mentioned this, but what I was getting at is that you're not addressing what's been answered for your or clarifying what you want out of the thread.

Porking your pork? I never said that.
You made post a while ago about some other Japanese oddities, one of them being an article on people doing animals before eating them. Whether the article was for real or not is debatable, but you can search your own posts and find it somewhere. I'm just too lazy to link to it.

In any case I'm Taiwanese-American. (Taiwanese technically being ethnically Chinese) Japan has some nice things but there are some very dark things to it too. I am really disgusted by how venomously they behaved during World War 2- notably the rape of Nanjing- and their arrogant and condescending refusal to acknowledge their sins and apologize for them.
See, the thing that pervades these sort of statements is a lack of actual association with the generation that had to deal with war times. You being the descendant, in my view, should concentrate more on making better what is happening now without holding a victim complex to an event of which you yourself weren't apart of. Being a second gen Japanese born in the USA, I could feel the same way as you, if not worse, knowing that someone in my bloodline could have very well been involved in fucking up neighboring countries, but that's just the thing; if my grandfathers were criminals, does that make me one? Covering up that stuff in education is never cool, but neither is bringing it up to people who are already aware of it just to come off as an angry kid with a misconceived martyr complex.

Yes, that was long ago, but why the fuck is Japan to far stuck up it's own ass to confess and apologize?
http://www.google.com/search?q=japan+apology+war&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
There are many angles on how one should apologize, but being a bitch about it and saying that it's never good enough is like asking for sorries without considering how and when to forgive.


Now years later, what do I find out? That Japan sells and produces rape porn which fetishizes and glorifies it. Gee, maybe that explains the mass-rapings by the Japanese armies and their exploitation of sex slave "comfort women"? For all I know Japan's possibly had massive rape porn for decades or centuries.
have you read the contents of your thread so far? again, myuu's given you a lot of answers...


I know some people here think rape porn is awesome and tie it to stopping rape, but I don't. It reinforces sexist and perverted thoughts in Japan, of which there already far too many. And again, A doesn't necessarily equal B, there could be other factors involved in rape reduction.
Who? Why the hostility?


And by the logic of the poster above me, countries should produce pornos where children get raped in the hopes that it'll stop child molestors.[quote]
"should" and "does" aren't to be taken in the same context. He was merely stating that in countries that already have it, the risk of sexual assault is low or has been lowered. It's hard to say that doing the same would change much for a country like, I don't know, the USA, simply because the social mindset is that much different. Aside from this, children can get taken advantage of anywhere.


[quote]
And what you say may not be true today, but for the hundreds of thousands or millions of Japanese men who served Imperial Japan during WW2- it was very true. Even women they "loved" they allowed to be raped. Literally, the vast majority of them all engaged in rape. American soldiers did not all do that and yet, our country doesn't have loads of porn glorifying rape. Perhaps we'd be a better society if we did, as some here believe.
Perhaps we can take a stroll through a society with an even higher prevalence of male supremacy and cultural instability, like, I don't know, parts of Africa and the middle-east. People can be sick regardless of ethnicity, and again, you seem to pervade with the race card out of hype and tension between forefathers rather than directly towards your immediate friends and family.


Apologies to anyone I may have offended, I've never had trouble on this board or anyone here before but rape and Japan are just two topics which when combined really, really set me off.
I don't think that you're offending anyone nor need to apologize. Just don't flood your arguments with bias and acknowledge other's information before asking inconsistent questions. Think of this is as personal research, not as a verbal protest.


==
Myuu: Yeah, it was apparent since I've already been familiar with his posts in general, but at least I was trying to spark some insight from him other than the aforementioned "this is bad, lets poke it with a stick" mentality.

Claire: Thanks for the extra history references. The Vietnamese can say the same about the French, and the Indians of the British, but I'd say that most countries now are at least a little better off then decades past. Of course, my knowledge of history in general isn't very good.

JSL: steel batallion was intense :0

[Silent Dob]

Well.... what ten or so reasons would you guys personally cite for the availability of rape games/porn in Japan and their popularity?

I'll admit to some personal bias, (sorry about that) so I'm wondering what reasons a more unbiased person would cite.

[MNJetter]

Well.... what ten or so reasons would you guys personally cite for the availability of rape games/porn in Japan and their popularity?
Are they popular?

I was under the general impression that, while most people in Japan know they exist, people who actually play them are still considered to be pervs by the rest of the Japanese population.

[SlickWilly440]

Hey, all people are perverts; it just that not everyone will openly admit it.

[stsparky]

OP? Would you accept Video Strip Poker as a precursor? Sex at the end of a successful game was implied.

That was an American original ...

[MNJetter]

I don't think that's very analogous. Strip poker is, generally, a mutually voluntary activity. Sure, sex is implied afterwards, but it's consensual.

[SlickWilly440]

I don't think that's very analogous. Strip poker is, generally, a mutually voluntary activity. Sure, sex is implied afterwards, but it's consensual.

It's implied, I thought the game was just about stripping.

[stsparky]

I don't think that's very analogous. Strip poker is, generally, a mutually voluntary activity. Sure, sex is implied afterwards, but it's consensual.
The reason I mentioned it is I remember the wacky humor of the Softporn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leisure_Suit_Larry) Line back in the Apple II days. The founder of Datamost - where I worked - was responsible for some horrifically poor and unredeemable software akin to "Custer's Revenge". I think one was called "Drench the Wench!" - and I suspect it was more akin to a one-sided affair.

[Jetsetlemming]

Leisure Suit Larry was a very classy game, and was made by Sierra.

[mikem]

Well.... what ten or so reasons would you guys personally cite for the availability of rape games/porn in Japan and their popularity?

I can't wait until the day when you find out that you can get rape fantasy delivery health. :clap:

[SlickWilly440]

Leisure Suit Larry was a very classy game, and was made by Sierra.

Yeah, but all those scenes/events were consensual.

[japanat]

I can't wait until the day when you find out that you can get rape fantasy delivery health. :clap:By a pre-pubescent-appearing young lady in a sailor school uniform, at that!

[stsparky]

I can't wait until the day when you find out that you can get rape fantasy delivery health. :clap:
One can now though. But the fantasy rape is actual consensual ... Custer's Revenge was an out and out rape game - though with crude graphics ...

I can't condemn Japan for going down the same path we did.

[Silent Dob]

Ah, Custer's Revenge. To be fair though that was a one-time rape game here in the States by an obscure video game company, and it only sold as much as it did because of vast media attention. I believe AVGN once reviewed it.

One obscure game in the 80's /= (unequal) an entire vast genre and collection of rape-themed games.

[stsparky]

Do you think the "Rape Fantasy" thing is cathartic? Saying you're a undersexed salaryman whose cold-hearted spouse takes the paycheck and gives no support for one's needs? Or a stressed out undatable student?

And is there an equivalent genre for women? Say "Castration and Humiliation" as a theme which avoids the SM/BD aspect?

These things have no appeal to me in movies or comics - but I'm not the target demographic for the kinds of games the OP brought up.

[aargon]

they got any groping games in yet?

raping is a little bit too hardcore for my liking.
________
bho hash oil (http://trichomes.org/hashish/bho-hash-oil)

[archdukezeb]

they got any groping games in yet?

raping is a little bit too hardcore for my liking.

Sounds like something for the underachieving fantasy rapist.

[stsparky]

Does having this product out there keep sick pathetic wannabe rapists sated? And thus their intended victims unaffected and unharmed?

Or is it of no value?

[Ichisan]

Well.... what ten or so reasons would you guys personally cite for the availability of rape games/porn in Japan and their popularity?

I'll admit to some personal bias, (sorry about that) so I'm wondering what reasons a more unbiased person would cite.

Let's see. In my unbiased opinion, it's because:

1. The Japanese are evil.

2. The Japanese are evil.

3. The Japanese are evil.

4. The Japanese are evil.

5. The Japanese are evil.

6. The Japanese are evil.

7. The Japanese are evil.

8. The Japanese are evil.

9. The Japanese are evil.

10. The Japanese are evil.

[japanat]

Does having this product out there keep sick pathetic wannabe rapists sated? And thus their intended victims unaffected and unharmed?

Or is it of no value?Maybe I'm conservative on this one issue: I really feel that giving them the release of successfully following such fantasies makes them more likely to abuse rather than less. Eventually, whatever they are doing becomes old-hat, boring. Where are they gonna get the next thrill? By taking it to the next level.

Most deviant behavior operates in the same way, whether it be S&M, child abuse, animal play serial killings or whatever. S&M folks don't start with the cattle prod up their bums, they probably start with a little candle wax.:box:

Maybe tentacle rape porn would be OK, since they don't have any tentacles to use...

[stsparky]

... Maybe tentacle rape porn would be OK, since they don't have any tentacles to use...

Wandering Kid (うろつき童子: 超神伝説 Urotsukidoji) Anime?

[CNagy]

First post on OP9 in nearly a year, and I'm posting about Rapelay. I'd love to be posting in any other topic, but I saw the subject line and thought "there is some reactionary bullshit with a heaping side of sweeping generalization that I might enjoy reading!" And upon reading the whole thread, it almost felt a crime not to post.

I've played the game. I played it with English translations. Let me assure you, it is vile. Vile and kinda crappy, from a design point of view. The premise of the game is that you are a rich guy, above the law because your father is a politician (I think, it's been a while). A woman on a train shows an unusual amount of justified rage and makes a scene about you groping some other woman on the train. You end up in jail for the night, and it is this that fuels your desire for revenge.

The Game in Not-so-brief:
You start with her younger sister. The articles mentioned terrorizing a mother and her two teenage daughters, but they don't mention that the younger one can't have been a teenager for very long. You molest her on a train, chase her into a bathroom, and then rape her. And take pictures, to blackmail her into aiding you in your quest for raping.

Then you target the mother. More groping on the train, then in a park the daughter uses her cellphone to lure the mother into the woods. Cue rape. More pictures.

The girl who originally got you arrested is last, somehow you lure her into a hotel room after groping her on a train and probably by showing her pictures of her family (it's been a long time, and the translation is iffy in spots.) You rape her and you've completed the story mode.

The rest of the game is raping to unlock achievements. The goal is to essentially turn these women into willing sex-slaves, which you achieve upon unlocking the various conditions (which are the same for all three women.) Literally, by the time you've "cleared" them, you have raped them into consent. So that's the game. Detestable. Vile. Frankly, the everything leading up to the rapes (the manipulation, the terrorization, etc) is far worse than the actual acts themselves.


It has a niche audience. This is pretty much the one sentiment that I felt was understated thus far. So let's talk about Japan--the Sovereign State? The elected officials? The Japanese people? Who exactly is the Japan that supposedly approves of rape games? Because I imagine that Japan (whoever that is supposed to be) "approves" of Rape Games the same way I "approve" of Chick Tracts: I don't make it my mission to destroy them, when encountering one I feel disgust, but some people out there actually like them. Niche audience.

I know personal anecdotes do not make empirical evidence, but I'm pretty sure rape is a world-wide problem. I've had three ex-girlfriends confide that their initial attraction to me was that I was big, scary-looking, and had a smooth predator's voice--all of which played right into their rape fantasies. And that's really the key word: fantasy. They no more want to experience actual rape (well, one did, but she had a host of other problems making for an interesting mental condition cocktail) than a person who plays Rapelay will become the sociopathic main character. Fantasy is not reality. You couldn't come up with a correlation of rape games emboldening rapists--ignoring all other factors.

In the end, it doesn't need a value--good or bad. It has a market and it is not illegal. In capitalism that's pretty much the bottom line. Just try to understand that it is a tiny market.

[aargon]

anyone here subscribe to the porn channels? a lot of raping and groping type programs (so i hear). Some of them I half wonder how "make believe" they really are.... especially the ones where they intoxicate the hell out of the girl and then gang bang her while shes half conscious. :duh:
________
no2 vaporizer (http://vaporizer.org/reviews/no2/)