Rise of individualism in Japanese High Schools (1 kid at a time)

[h2orowe]

Ok, from what I hear... Japan is all about fitting in with the crowd...
and if that crowd involves hip hop... how the hell does J-rock get made? I mean I can understand some of the Visual Kei stuff being made just for money... but AKFG is new and they're completely rocking and original....



The real reason I made this thread is because I have a penpal now from Japan, even though I've only gotten one reply, I'm hoping for more... but I want to sculpt a Japanese person, into a brand new person.... not the "I have to fit in to be cool" but the "I'll do what I think is cool" kind.... so I gave some links to sites that had music in it... and suggested some hardcore bands, and am eventually going to bring up how she should act as who she wants and how she wants, not as the MTV whore I've heard most Japanese people are (no offense but this is what I've read.)
I wanna sort of have her influence her friends to do what they want, and maybe it will spread, and bring it in front of people to upjump a sort of "I am who I want not who they are" movement.... even if at first it's through only pop culture... I hope it will eventually reach to greater and deeper understandings....


Plus I want hardcore to get big in Japan :D

[Scott]

I want to sculpt a Japanese person, into a brand new person....

Maybe it's just me being a cynical ass, but this seems to represent the holier-than-thou attitude that people generally hate about Americans. Who's not to say that the Japanese aren't getting it right in some way here?

[Arkan]

You'll fail. What you will SUCCEED in doing is getting a poor japanese boy get the living shit kicked out of him because he thought it would be cool to have a green mohawk. Is that what you want? huh? To get some kid to cry at night cursing originality? Who are you to get this kid in so much pain, HUH SAY SOMETHING!!!

So we could say that you're indirectly beating the shit out of this kid. That's just like you, to beat some innocent little japanese kid because he's different by doing what everyone else does.

...


You sicken me.

[Scott]

It's worse than that, Arkan - it seems like his penpal is female.

[Bissrok]

So... in order to get your penpal to think for herself you're telling her how to act? Plus, if she enjoys being cool, let her. Can't force someone to think for themself. And "hardcore" music sucks anyway, I don't want that spreading. We need to contain it, let it run it's course, then get back to enjoying real music

[Arkan]

God that girl beating h2orowe is something isn't he. I mean who has a goal in their life to go to Japan and cut the throut of an innocent adorable dare I say it beautiful japanese girl because she's having a happy productive life of going along with the crowd. Are you that pitiful and rensentful to her because she has a happy life?


...

You disgust me

[h2orowe]

Well, I did almost not write this because of my hyporticism, buuuuuuuuuuuuuut what I mean to do, is to get her think outside of the box....
To go against the norms... to compare both her music, and my music, and develop an oppinion about it herself... and I said later one I'd introduce her to deeper things.... not all music related :\


and what the hell?!?! Kids in Japan get beat up for not acting MTV-esque?



Edit: Arkan... that's not what I'm doing... you bastard.. and I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not so that saddens me :(

[Arkan]

Pfft look at the baby killing h2orowe, can't tell if I'm sarcastic. What kind of person can't tell if i'm sarcastic. Well I am....Or AM I?!?!?!? Muhahahah.


I really don't know. You just sounded like a total nooby nerd when you posted. I mean who the fuck cares what you think is normal (not being rude...well if I come off as insulting it's because I'm blunt).

It annoyes me too, to see some jap kids running around with their pants under their knees. I mean we already have crackers. My solution is rather than try to impose my beliefs of norms, I'll just punch a jacker (jap-cracker) in the mouth if I see him. Or in the back of the head if I think he'll win in a fight or if there's more than one. So i'll be running when they turn around.

Edit: I realised I was sarcastic....sarcastic and tired.

[Quartermaster]

Arkan has the best idea.

[Scott]

One more thing, and I hated it when people did this to me five years ago, but at fifteen, you do not know enough to be teaching/training other people to be model human beings. You yourself most likely have a long way to go before you become a model human being.

At fifteen, Ayn Rand seems like God.

No offense, and like I said - I hate the age schtick - but it's the truth. Worry about yourself before you worry about a penpal in another country.

[Quartermaster]

What's wrong with Ayn Rand?

[h2orowe]

:\ Jeez, I just wanted to help inspire a new thinking into such a one minded culture...


:(

[Scott]

What's wrong with Ayn Rand?

Nothing, really. It's just that she's one of those people who tends to inspire fanatacism in people who don't read her thoroughly, like Nietzsche.

[dillon]

:\ Jeez, I just wanted to help inspire a new thinking into such a one minded culture...


:(

read this:

Maybe it's just me being a cynical ass, but this seems to represent the holier-than-thou attitude that people generally hate about Americans.

<postistooshortblahblah>

[Pierrot le Fou]

Ayn Rand isn't even close to being in the same league as Nietzsche. Holy mother of God. I feel dumber for even having read a comparison between the two.

[Kaji]

Regarding why visual rock and such is there in the first place, the entertainment industry in any given nation always has a certain amount more freedom of thought than the general populace, usually because they're supposed to embody cool, on top of the fact that they're pulling in enough money to not have to worry about being unemployed (as they're being employed to bring in said money by being different in the first place).

As Az's thread is showing (and as Pierrot pointed out in that thread), the Japanese love a freak show. Hence why visual rock appeals. Even then though, there are certain things to keep in mind, such as how the companies that own these celebrities decide what they can and can't do, and push and prod them to do their bidding. Those who deviate in such a fashion on their own usually fall into one of two categories.

1) The myriad cliques you see in Japanese youth, which are accepted the way they are because even amongst these cliques, there's mandatory conformity.

or 2) They never really hit it big because nobody gives them the time of day, thus they have to either subsist on their art until someone takes notice (perhaps whoring themselves out along the way, like you have to do in the anime/manga industry starting out) or else go and get a real job, and thusly rejoin the conformity of the Japanese culture.

As for the possibility of conforming during the day and doing what you want on your time, "your" time is a relatively foreign concept to the Japanese to begin with. If you're supposed to be studying, by God they'll make sure you study. If you're supposed to be working, you'll be at work, and you'll usually be there after work for the good of the company, too. You're free to do what you want when nobody's looking, but if what's hidden comes into the open, it's open season for the grapevine, and the social consequences that stem therefrom.

A change like what you're hoping to achieve is going to take a sizeable group deciding together to work towards the change and then spreading from there. The way the culture is set up right now it bascially functions like dropping the offender in a vat of jelly with concrete shoes. It comes at you from all sides and penetrates everything until you have no choice but to surrender.

(If that sounded a bit odd, hey, it's almost 3 in the morning over here...)

[Varia]

Why don't you just get to know her? I mean, how much have you talked with her to say that she's one-minded? Just talk to her.

[Darkblade]

Maybe it's just me being a cynical ass, but this seems to represent the holier-than-thou attitude that people generally hate about Americans. Who's not to say that the Japanese aren't getting it right in some way here?

I, as an American agree with you.

Dont try to change anyone into what you want them to be. Maybe they are happier (and probably better off) being who they are.

;)

[more cheerios]

Ganguro.
This is all I have to say.

http://i.somethingawful.com/fashion/ganguro/2.jpg

http://i.somethingawful.com/fashion/ganguro/4.jpg

[Trump]

You all have been talking about JRock for a while, but I still have no idea what it is. I mean I figured out that it is Japanese Rock, but the way you talk about it makes it seem like there is something more to it. What am I missing?

[spaik]

Nothing much.

J-Rock is just japanese pop-rock.

I guess you could talk about Visual Kei (Visual Rock or Visual J-Rock) which would compare to our hair metal bands of the 80s where it wasn't just the music but the whole aesthetics of the band and their performances. That might be something that one might consider 'unique' to J-Rock, but that's a subgenre of it's own, and not really that unique, seeing as we've been seeing it in North American music culture since way back in the early 80s.

The only difference is that ours didn't wear frilly dresses.

[Invictus]

At fifteen, Ayn Rand seems like God.

Wahahahaha! Good stuff!

Quoted for truth. ;)

Seriously, h2orowe, you're not really in a position to start a cultural movement in Japan. :P

even though I've only gotten one reply, I'm hoping for more... but I want to sculpt a Japanese person, into a brand new person....

At one reply, you definitely don't know enough about this person (particularly coming from the tatemae/honne Japanese culture) to be thinking about "sculpting" people.

not the "I have to fit in to be cool" but the "I'll do what I think is cool" kind....

Here's some news for you. Japanese think that fitting in is cool. Most of them honestly conform because they really don't mind doing what everybody else does. Not to mention that often you DO have to fit in to be considered "cool." Of course, some of us (like myself) think that being considered cool by others is highly overrated, and hence we do our own thing.

The Japanese actually do the same... just in groups. That's how you end up with the otaku/bosozoku/flaming red wig subcultures. When Japanese folks decide to stand out from society and make a statement, they do so (as they do everything else) in a group.

so I gave some links to sites that had music in it... and suggested some hardcore bands,

Ugh. Don't even bring up "hardcore" music. I've listened to far too much Bach to have you corrupting a poor soul with misconceived ideas on what music really is. ;)

and am eventually going to bring up how she should act as who she wants and how she wants,

Chances are that she IS acting as who she wants and how she wants. Just because the Japanese have a clannish, collective mentality doesn't mean they don't do so of their own free will.

As a Westerner, you probably find this a difficult concept to understand. Just take my word for it on this one. The Japanese are as human as you or me, subject to the same thoughts, temptations, etc. When they really want to be independent from the crowd, they can definitely do so as well as the next man.

not as the MTV whore I've heard most Japanese people are (no offense but this is what I've read.)

Don't believe everything you read.

Methinks you read too much OP9. Sure, Japanese have gotten their impressions of black folks from MTV, but it's not my experience that MTV is a more major factor in Japanese pop culture than it'd be in the States.

I wanna sort of have her influence her friends to do what they want, and maybe it will spread, and bring it in front of people to upjump a sort of "I am who I want not who they are" movement.... even if at first it's through only pop culture... I hope it will eventually reach to greater and deeper understandings....

Ah, youthful idealism. :D

I recommend you take the advice of other folks on this thread and abandon this ill-advised scheme. It's a train wreck waiting to happen. If you decide not to listen to us netizens, though, I wish you all the best and ask that you not take it too hard when it blows up in your face. :p

[Arkan]

Ganguro.
This is all I have to say.

http://i.somethingawful.com/fashion/ganguro/2.jpg

http://i.somethingawful.com/fashion/ganguro/4.jpg



BUhahahahahaha. In one small post h2orowe got his total idea fucked. You're wrong about japan being TOTALLY one-minded (look at ganguro). You really don't know much about other cultures. So rather than talking about it and trying your little nazi experiments just go and hit your face into a wall. For every hit a jap kid will feel better.

[h2orowe]

Haha, Invictus, yeah, I guess I'll ditch this idea :\


Ha! It's better that I got the impression of Japan from OP9 rather than from anime... like some Japanese club kids.


I'll take the rest of the flames you want :\ I deserve it.

[Arkan]

Ok. You're undesirable and a Kaplish...
I had to make up a word just to describe you.

[Justin Ellis]

I think what most people are trying to point out, h2orowe, is that attempting to combat Japanese conformity with your own brand of conformity is ironic, idealistic and really, just absurd. Japan is a Confucian society, there's no doubt about that, but stand back and take a good long look at America, and you'll see that it's plenty a conformist society.

"But I like hardcore..." you might say. Well, even within American subcultures there's a good deal of conformity, just like... Japan. 'Don't fit the perfect mold, well then you're not one of us.' That's why Emo and what not is so lamented. I know you want to do good, h2orowe, but as a 10th grader, you simply need a lot of growing and distance with time before you're in any position to mold anyone. Most likely, you're going to be a very different person yourself a few years from now.

I consider myself and Existentialist, and thus I hold individuality very highly, but I also recognize the fact that there are no are no universal values governing human action, and certainly no universally "right" cultural standards.

"But they stick their fingers up people's asses!!!111!!"

Well, the Japanese don't seem to think that's terribly unacceptable, thus it isn't from a Japanese perspective. A perspective equally "correct" as any American perspective. You have to understand that there must be plenty aspects of American culture that your average Japanese person would find unacceptable.

Just try to imagine how you might react if you found that your Japanese pen pal is plotting to mold you into a good conformist.


And Arkan... as much as I like your balls out style and Tono avatar, you're not going to open any eyes by being so rude.

[Arkan]

To tell you honestly, I didn't ernestly try to prove a point. I just wanted to be rude to him. Had I wanted to prove a point I would have been seroius about it. Go read asian invasion and you'll see I don't attack my opponent during a debate.

[Justin Ellis]

No offense, but there's an entire forum devoted to being unconstructive already. I'd read Asian Invasion thread, but it seems too muddled and off topic by now. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy a good debate on the impact of religion on a society -just today I had a short debate with an Episcopalian clergy man on the nature of God- but I'm not in the mood to jump into the middle of a thread where no one seems to know just what they're trying to prove.

But I digress.

[Arkan]

Yea I kinda agree with you over the off topic remark. I mean IT did originally start out as some stupid rant from me. Then one guy said something and another disagreed. The debate keeps changing. I'm really dissapointed because if the topic keeps changing then the debate can never end. I'm not insulted I totally get your logic. And agree with you.

I would say that topic got stupid fast, but it was always stupid.

[Bissrok]

i really wasn't trying to help either, i just hate "hardcore" music. i know this isn't adding anything either, but this thread doesn't look like it's goin' anywhere important.

[alansmithee]

I also would like to point out that the supposed western individualism is largely overstated. There are just as many "MTV whores" in America as there are in Japan, if not more, especially for younger people. People here give more lip service to being individual, but will fall into a group just as quick as the Japanese, only in America we lack the 2000 years of collecivist identity. In America, there will usually be one true trendsetter/individual who instantly spawns many clones erroneously claiming to be just as individual.

[Chinpokomon]

I also would like to point out that the supposed western individualism is largely overstated. There are just as many "MTV whores" in America as there are in Japan, if not more, especially for younger people. People here give more lip service to being individual, but will fall into a group just as quick as the Japanese, only in America we lack the 2000 years of collecivist identity. In America, there will usually be one true trendsetter/individual who instantly spawns many clones erroneously claiming to be just as individual.

Couldn't have said it better myself...
No, really. If I could have, I would have.

H20Rowe: I think you need to understand Japanese culture before you can change it. And once you understand Japanese culture, you'll understand that you can't.*

*Note: Advice given by someone who admittedly does not completely understand Japanese culture. All advice should be taken with small pieces of sodium.

[h2orowe]

Like people pointed to me before, this is a stupid idea, and I admitted it.... please no more posts in this... just let it drop, I feel shamed enough already.

[Arkan]

Awww don't be everyone makes mistakes. Better to learn from them rather than shun them.

[Justin Ellis]

please no more posts in this...

One more thing ;)

Arguably, one could say that it's impossible to completely understand any culture, even one's native culture. That is, it's impossible to totally understand a culture such as Japan's (or any foreign culture, really) because one need being born there to have a strong comprehension of etiquette, taboos, cultural motifs and symbolism, etc. On the flip side, it's difficult to objectively view one's own culture due to biases (which can be either positive or negative) and only the most cynical of people, often found on message boards, are capable of doing so. That said, the human motivations that drive a culture's development can be incomprehensible as no one can truly know what goes on inside the head of another.

And while we're commenting on post-industrial western notions of individuality, I look at it this way: find a busy road someday and just watch the vehicles zoom by. The car (or increasingly, the SUV) is the archetypal standard of American success and self sufficiency. The car represents individuality by satisfying a social criteria -by conforming. All the cars you see on the highway are a bit different, but in the end, it's still a herd of cars.

[Idlethought]

Maybe it's just me being a cynical ass, but this seems to represent the holier-than-thou attitude that people generally hate about Americans. Who's not to say that the Japanese aren't getting it right in some way here?

quoted for truth

[Sector]

How about, influence her to be HERSELF instead of "OUT OF THE BOX."

Honestly, I think the whole "out of the box" or "in with the crowd" is the same in general because either you don't want to be the same typical, or you want to fit in with the rest. They both lead to the, "I'm not who I really am." Back in my sister's day of high school (now she's 23), punk rockers are very rare, but now, there are so many punk rocker wannabe/emo kids in my school that it sickens me. Just because they want to be, "different" doesn't mean they are trully them. It just gross me out how those kids have these retarded hair color and not only that, they wear black all the time. Especially the guys, they were these tight black pants that don't fit them so they only reach up their thighs and you can see their nasty boxers. Gross.

But ya, dont' be ashame. I think you're just trying to help your penpal to shape into someone better.

[deepbluevibes]

:\ Jeez, I just wanted to help inspire a new thinking into such a one minded culture...


:(

Think of the borg from star trek.

Every one of them knows all the same stuff. If any of them learn something new, they all learn it instantly.

This actually sounds like a REALLY effective culture.

[Chuplayer]

I want to sculpt a Japanese person, into a brand new person.

Fuck you, pal.

[charrick]

I also would like to point out that the supposed western individualism is largely overstated. There are just as many "MTV whores" in America as there are in Japan, if not more, especially for younger people. People here give more lip service to being individual, but will fall into a group just as quick as the Japanese, only in America we lack the 2000 years of collecivist identity. In America, there will usually be one true trendsetter/individual who instantly spawns many clones erroneously claiming to be just as individual.

It's completely true that the MTV culture has infiltrated America much more than it has Japan. And although I don't watch MTV (I'm in my 20's and too old for it), I saw parts of some shows like that "Sweett 16" thing and oh my god those girls are so selfish and full of themselves...like most people are in reality shows...with one of the first ones being MTV's own "The Real World". Let me select from either a Japanese conformist or a good-for-nothing full of herself 16-year old Escalade-owning American girl and I'd choose the Japanese in a flash.

By the way, it seems like (for instance, with exposing your penpal to your music preferences) you're not helping her to think outside the box, but rather "in YOUR box". And let's be honest, I bet watching TV and playing on the internet takes up the majority of your day outside school. (Nothing wrong with that, but I doubt you're some enlightened person.)

Are you religious at all? Maybe YOU should think outside the box. I must say that Japanese opinions about religion are a LOT more healthy than most Americans'. And even if you're not religious, what you seemed to be trying to do was much like what the French are trying to do. They are outlawing headscarves in schools so that Islamic women will be more liberated. Obviously, this is aggravating the muslim women, not helping them in any meaningful way. And remember president Bush who just knew how much the Iraqis wanted freedom. And you know what, they're SO happy for it!...not.

By the way, is there any reason that your penpal is a Japanese school girl? Since you are a guy, would it not be better to pass your American ideas on to a Japanese male, not a female. My guess is that you're hoping that you can be this girl's knight in shining armor and save her from her culture, and then that beauty will be yours. I'm sorry to inform you that dreams don't come true that easily. I urge you to pick a guy if you want to "educate" somebody without people thinking you have ulterior motives.

Lastly, it seems you've been pretty negative about Japan and the Japanese people. Japan has some problems but all countries and cultures do. If you can't accept Japan for what it is, you should steer clear of the country altogether and have fun in your little corner of America where they call people gooks.

[novacane]

So you want hardcore to get big in Japan? When you say hardcore, im taking it as meaning hardcore punk. There is a hardcore punk scene in Japan....theres been great punk in Japan since the late 70s (bands like Gai, Confuse, The Stalin, GISM, Gauze, etc). Because punk itself is underground, I don't think the scene in Japan will ever get big, but Japanese hardcore bands right now like DSB, Disclose, F*ck on the Beach are known internationally.

[h2orowe]

Like I said... I've learned from my mistake... so, please, stop posting... -.-;

Yes, it was a retarded idea.... so, please, let it die....

edit: I'm not religious.

[Nikki]

h2orowe,
.......Where to begin? Now I don't mean to insult you here, but this makes you sound like a pretentious twit who really hasn't got the slightest clue about Japan's culture at all.
Why would you want to sculpt anyone into anything, anyway? Trying to just makes you sound like you think you're above it all, and that anything that's different from the way you think and act has got to be wrong, and must be fixed(This by the way could be considered prejudice).
Guess what? You're wrong, and once you step out of you little sheltered, boxed-in world you'll realize it. And if you don't, enjoy life thinking you're above it all.

[I ARE 1031]

"I'll do what I think is cool"

Plus I want hardcore to get big in Japan :D

You don't want her to do what she thinks is cool you want her to do what you think is cool. If you only show her hardcore music than you are trying to make her be like you. Dumbass.

[Mushu]

Dumb people never stop to amaze me....


I wont bash you h2orowe b7c so many have beaten me to it but instead ill ask some questions so try to answer them okay, little matty..

what makes think you are living outside of the box, that you aren’t with the crowd, that you are 'cool', a leader, instead of insecure 15 year old loser?
Take a look into the mirror and tell us what you see Mr. Revolutionary, I want to hear about your individuality.


PS
Sector and Arkan, lol your avatars cracked me up, after reading 200 pages of The rights of war and peace, tiny things crack me up :D

[Arkan]

Hahaha Poor joey. So much bashing. The horror the horror!!!

[Mushu]

he got served

[keitaidensha]

you guys are all making fun of him together

god what a bunch of conformists :rolleyes:

[MeneerDijk]

and i'm closing this thread because i conform to my teapot or something