Global Warming Irreversible, Study Says

[Swede]

I won't comment no it yet, just throwing it out there.

Global Warming Irreversible, Study Says (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99888903)

Climate change is essentially irreversible, according to a sobering new scientific study.

As carbon dioxide emissions continue to rise, the world will experience more and more long-term environmental disruption. The damage will persist even when, and if, emissions are brought under control, says study author Susan Solomon, who is among the world's top climate scientists.

"We're used to thinking about pollution problems as things that we can fix," Solomon says. "Smog, we just cut back and everything will be better later. Or haze, you know, it'll go away pretty quickly."

That's the case for some of the gases that contribute to climate change, such as methane and nitrous oxide. But as Solomon and colleagues suggest in a new study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, it is not true for the most abundant greenhouse gas: carbon dioxide. Turning off the carbon dioxide emissions won't stop global warming.

"People have imagined that if we stopped emitting carbon dioxide that the climate would go back to normal in 100 years or 200 years. What we're showing here is that's not right. It's essentially an irreversible change that will last for more than a thousand years," Solomon says.

This is because the oceans are currently soaking up a lot of the planet's excess heat — and a lot of the carbon dioxide put into the air. The carbon dioxide and heat will eventually start coming out of the ocean. And that will take place for many hundreds of years.

Solomon is a scientist with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Her new study looked at the consequences of this long-term effect in terms of sea level rise and drought.

If we continue with business as usual for even a few more decades, she says, those emissions could be enough to create permanent dust-bowl conditions in the U.S. Southwest and around the Mediterranean.

"The sea level rise is a much slower thing, so it will take a long time to happen, but we will lock into it, based on the peak level of [carbon dioxide] we reach in this century," Solomon says.

The idea that changes will be irreversible has consequences for how we should deal with climate change. The global thermostat can't be turned down quickly once it's been turned up, so scientists say we need to proceed with more caution right now.

"These are all ... changes that are starting to happen in at least a minor way already," says Michael Oppenheimer of Princeton University. "So the question becomes, where do we stop it, when does all of this become dangerous?"

The answer, he says, is sooner rather than later. Scientists have been trying to advise politicians about finding an acceptable level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. The new study suggests that it's even more important to aim low. If we overshoot, the damage can't be easily undone. Oppenheimer feels more urgency than ever to deal with climate change, but he says that in the end, setting acceptable limits for carbon dioxide is a judgment call.

"That's really a political decision because there's more at issue than just the science. It's the issue of what the science says, plus what's feasible politically, plus what's reasonable economically to do," Oppenheimer says.

But despite this grim prognosis, Solomon says this is not time to declare the problem hopeless and give up.

"I guess if it's irreversible, to me it seems all the more reason you might want to do something about it," she says. "Because committing to something that you can't back out of seems to me like a step that you'd want to take even more carefully than something you thought you could reverse."

[Jetsetlemming]

Yes, we will never again have an ice age. :sarcasm:

[Rear Admiral Grapefruit]

One of the worries with global warming is that the oceans will be absorbing too much heat, when water gets warm and you get a strong wind over it, it'll carry the water into the air, and what people don't always realise is that water as a vapour is also a green house gas and the fear is once the water begins to gather into the air, we get a runaway green house effect, in essence, the water gets hotter so it evaporates off, which in turn leads to more heat trapped in the atmosphere as it's carried up, which causes yet more evaporation, at essentially an exponential rate and the end result is dry oceans and a dead planet, ie venus.

Little link from the ever reliable wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas#Role_of_water_vapor)

Though as I say, that's just a concern right now, it's unknown if it will happen, just that it can and might. :P

[MNJetter]

Hopefully by the time it happens, we'll have the technology to keep it under control. I mean, in hundreds of years we just might be capable of producing CO2 neutralizers in the ocean or in the air, and maybe even harvesting extra water out from planets that have it but don't need it, like Io or Mars. (yes, I know Io isn't an actual planet)

Of course, that's just all the more reason why we can't just relax now. We need to kick it in the butt and start inventing things.

[h2orowe]

Why don't we just synthesize a giant ice cube and throw it into the ocean? Worked on Futurama.

[Samurai_Pooh]

this is old news. scientists already know its too late because we wasted far too much time

'DURRR CLIMATE CHANGE ISN'T REAL DAWG'

now the shit is going to hit the fan in around 20 years time. i'm making popcorn, who wants some?

[Myrsilus]

At least we can try to live in those domes they had in Total Recall.

I'm kind of serious, too. Kinda.

[Plekto]

All we're really doing is speeding up the next ice age. Why? Because if all of the ice melts around the world, the oceans are diluted by far more than the heat that was put in. Their salinity goes down and they stop circulating. It's all about set points and crossing them. Note how the ice isn't melting in a linear fashion. Well, DUH - Ice is a solid and then get it one degree too hot and it *all* melts. The oceans are similar. The planet does a great job of regulating excess heat this way.

Too bad for humans, though - we'll be caught right in the middle of it. Oh, and also most likely, a period where the magnetic poles flip. We may need those domed cities to deal with the UV more than anything.

[Trump]

By saying irreversable you make it sound like it is not a naturally occurring phenomenon. It's like saying "Gravity is irrersable!!" Duh...

I don't believe we can reverse it because I do not believe humans have that much to do with the cause. We could have not had the industrial revolution and we'd still be having these problems.

Again, the environmentalists need to get over global warming and concentrate on conservation and low-impact practices.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

I don't believe we can reverse it because I do not believe humans have that much to do with the cause. We could have not had the industrial revolution and we'd still be having these problems.

This is usually where you would give some sort of citation to back up your statement.

[blank slate]

Sucks that the world's economy hit the fan at this point in time. When the economy is bad, no one cares about the environment or any of the consequences that come from raping it.

Sustainability is key for all nations and people. The way we live now just isn't sustainable.

[stsparky]

Yes, we will never again have an ice age. :sarcasm:
You do know Global Warming is the trigger to an Ice Age normally ... - right?
Why don't we just synthesize a giant ice cube and throw it into the ocean? Worked on Futurama.
Actually - dropping many giant white ping pong balls in the Arctic and Antarctic could do the trick ...

One big fix would be to get industry off planet.

[SlickWilly440]

I really don't see how this is any of our problem, the planet it self will be fine. The planet has been through worse, it's the people and living things that will be screwed. There is nothing we can do about it, so might as well as sit back, relax, and just accept it.

[MNJetter]

I really don't see how this is any of our problem, the planet it self will be fine. The planet has been through worse, it's the people and living things that will be screwed. There is nothing we can do about it, so might as well as sit back, relax, and just accept it.
...you know, there's a reason why the term "fatalistic" contains the word "fatal."

[SlickWilly440]

...you know, there's a reason why the term "fatalistic" contains the word "fatal."

What? I don't understand how that relates to my previous post.

[Swede]

I really don't see how this is any of our problem, the planet it self will be fine. The planet has been through worse, it's the people and living things that will be screwed. There is nothing we can do about it, so might as well as sit back, relax, and just accept it.

Yes, because never in the history of mankind have we ever been able to do anything to adapt to environmental changed through the use of science and technology. So clearly there's nothing that we could possibly do to minimize the amount of damage done to both the environment and ourselves. Nope. Nothing at all.



I'm starting to get the impression that you're either the worst troll or you put literally no thought into any of your posts. The people who are banking on us living on another planet by the time global warming is an issue have probably put more thought into this, and that's not saying a whole hell of a lot.

[SlickWilly440]

Yes, because never in the history of mankind have we ever been able to do anything to adapt to environmental changed through the use of science and technology. So clearly there's nothing that we could possibly do to minimize the amount of damage done to both the environment and ourselves. Nope. Nothing at all.

Hey thanks, I'm glad that we can agree. There is not point in going green, if global warming is irreversible. "Going green".. uh....I hate that word, it doesn't make sense b/c one is still polluting the earth but by less or by transporting the pollution elsewhere. Since there is no point in going green, all these businesses are just using global warming as a way to market their products to give the customers a false sense of helping the environment, when in the end global warming is just going to continue. So I wouldn't support or do anything that is considered "green" b/c it's not going to make a big difference in the long run.


I'm starting to get the impression that you're either the worst troll or you put literally no thought into any of your posts.

You know, now that you mention it, I probably think that you might be right.

[Jetsetlemming]

You do know Global Warming is the trigger to an Ice Age normally ... - right?

You do know I was making a snarky comment on the wording of the article which seems to imply "It's hot now, it'll never ever go away!"

One big fix would be to get industry off planet.
Ugh, one hell of a commute though

[MNJetter]

What? I don't understand how that relates to my previous post.
Your previous post was absolutely a textbook example of a fatalistic outlook. "There's nothing that can be done, so don't bother to try."

Nothing has ever been solved by fatalists. The sit-back-and-watch-it-happen theory is what gets you a spot in history books as just one of the general populace who let horrible things happen via some phenomenal case of public ignorance.

And your latest post, about the futility of "going green," has a big flaw in it. You seem to be under the assumption that just because something doesn't solve the problem completely, it is worthless. Just because global warming is irreversible doesn't mean it isn't slow-able, or that the effects can't be at least somewhat ameliorated by efforts on our part. Does it solve global warming? No. We don't have the technology for it yet. But until we do, we should still make every effort we can to help. It does make a difference, and it will help in the long run. It just helps less if people like you don't bother to help.

[geesehoward4life]

And I was having such an okay day before this. So what's the next step then, unless sitting around and simply waiting for some sort of disaster to strike is what's on tap. And the magnetic poles are already starting to slowly reverse. Hmmm, still hoping that whole Mayan calender running out isn't a bad sign...

[Jetsetlemming]

Anyone who puts more than a second serious thought into the Mayan calendar bullshit as a real sign of real danger or imminent apocalypse is a fucking moron.

[geesehoward4life]

Good thing I didn't put more than a second into that thought. It is funny how accurate the calender has been though, so we keep the good parts and toss back the shitty parts, right?

[Jetsetlemming]

Oooor ignore it all as worthless superstition written hundreds of years ago by borderline savages?

[geesehoward4life]

HAHAHAHAHA! Thanks for making me laugh! Don't know why, but for some reason Jetsetlemming you remind me of the Sokka character from Avatar the Last Airbender.

[riona]

this is old news. scientists already know its too late because we wasted far too much time

'DURRR CLIMATE CHANGE ISN'T REAL DAWG'

now the shit is going to hit the fan in around 20 years time. i'm making popcorn, who wants some?

I have a friend who's like that. She'll argue for the literal truth of the Bible and the fact that God exists and is watching me, ooooh, but global warming is a myth. Even though it can be *actually* scientifically proven. :frypan:

Also, I'll take some popcorn!

[SlickWilly440]

Your previous post was absolutely a textbook example of a fatalistic outlook. "There's nothing that can be done, so don't bother to try."

Hey, I think I might be a fatalist. "I'm a fatalist and proud of it." Such a relief to get that off my chest.

Nothing has ever been solved by fatalists. The sit-back-and-watch-it-happen theory is what gets you a spot in history books as just one of the general populace who let horrible things happen via some phenomenal case of public ignorance.

Sitting back and watching it happen is easier b/c there will always be someone else out their trying to solve the problems, and those who do nothing will still benefit from their solutions in the end.

And your latest post, about the futility of "going green," has a big flaw in it. You seem to be under the assumption that just because something doesn't solve the problem completely, it is worthless. Just because global warming is irreversible doesn't mean it isn't slow-able, or that the effects can't be at least somewhat ameliorated by efforts on our part.

But all the people in all the countries in the world would have to follow this "going green" fad to make a significant difference, and I don't see that happening anytime soon. It's like trying to get people to vote or recycle, it doesn't work unless a lot of people participate.

Does it solve global warming? No. We don't have the technology for it yet. But until we do, we should still make every effort we can to help. It does make a difference, and it will help in the long run. It just helps less if people like you don't bother to help.

How am I suppose to help when it's societies and economies fault that we can't survive without globally warming the environment? Every time I exhale I'm adding CO2 emissions to the environment. Every time I turn on a light or turn on anything electrically relate, the same thing is happening. And even if I reduce those types of activities, I can't be sure that other people are doing the same, so there is no motivation or incentive for me to reduce my global warming activities.

The best and quickest way to reduce global warming for the Earth is to destroy the causes of it, which is the people in general. Destroy all the power plants, and eliminate all forms of power that contribute to global warming. We can then go back to living they way things were before then. Sure, there won't be enough food for everyone, and many people will loose their lives due to various reasons such as starvation and sickness. But hey, at least the Earth will be safe from it's human inhabitants warming it up.

In conclusion: "Anything that is not guaranteed isn't worth trying because it's a waste of time when one could be pursuing some other method that is guaranteed."

- SlickWilly440

[Trump]

This is usually where you would give some sort of citation to back up your statement.

If you look it is an opionion, not fact. I fully believe global warming is happening, and that has been scientifically proven. However, since there are no facts at all about how much of the changes are the result of humans, how can I provide backup? Personally, I find it hard to believe given the size of the world and how much of it is actually inhabited by humans and industry, that humans are the largest cause of global warming.

So in reference to the original issue, I believe we could never have had any serious impact on global warming, so why would now be any different? We should be keeping the earth clean on principal anyway.

[stsparky]

You do know I was making a snarky comment on the wording of the article which seems to imply "It's hot now, it'll never ever go away!"
I never can tell. Here's a tool to see flood level (http://flood.firetree.net/?ll=43.3251,-101.6015&z=13&m=7).
(industry off planet) Ugh, one hell of a commute though
Tele-presence - we stay here in our large Earthside mansions bought by redistribution of wealth, and direct robots to do labor.

[japanat]

"Anything that is not guaranteed isn't worth trying because it's a waste of time when one could be pursuing some other method that is guaranteed."Dude, you'll never get laid with that philosophy. "Don' try cause it ain't guaranteed!" Did you just magically learn how to walk one day, or are you still sitting on your hands?

It's the things that aren't guaranteed, and the pursuit thereof, that make life sweet.

[SlickWilly440]

Dude, you'll never get laid with that philosophy.

There are more important things in life than getting laid. I never understood this common masculine mannerism that "getting laid" is the #1 priority. I guess this ideal is perpetuated through the media/drama to make all the males think that getting some is the most important goal in life.

"Don' try cause it ain't guaranteed!" Did you just magically learn how to walk one day, or are you still sitting on your hands?

I should probably revise my quote:

"Anything that isn't guaranteed or hasn't succeeded in the past isn't worth pursing because the time incurred to the possible failure could have been spent pursuing a guaranteed method backup by a high proof of success. "

Learning how to walk is guaranteed, but "going green" isn't guaranteed to save the world, well actually human existence, in the end.

It's the things that aren't guaranteed, and the pursuit thereof, that make life sweet.

Yes, and failing after working so hard to achieve a pursuit is sweet as well. :bored:

[Jetsetlemming]

Dude, you'll never get laid with that philosophy. "Don' try cause it ain't guaranteed!" Did you just magically learn how to walk one day, or are you still sitting on your hands?

It's the things that aren't guaranteed, and the pursuit thereof, that make life sweet.
I doubt he'll ever get laid regardless

[SlickWilly440]

I doubt he'll ever get laid regardless

Your not being very supportive, but I'd have to agree with you on that one. Getting laid is overrated.

[japanat]

Actually, even if I don't agree with you, I understand your cynicism regarding whether going green will really have any effect when so many companies and countries don't. It's just your fatalism which gets to me.

Yes, and failing after working so hard to achieve a pursuit is sweet as well. :bored:I reward my kids, and myself, if they or I try 100% to do something, but fail. I reward them even more if they try again. I don't reward sitting on their asses.

When people complain about something, but can't be assed to even try to do anything to fix that problem, it pisses me off. It's like my friend who complains about whichever President is in office. If he won't even try to vote to change things, I don't want to hear him bitch and moan about it. Little children whine and expect their parents to do everything for them - that's what little children do. Adults should do better.

[mawande]

Death is inevitable, too. But I'm not going to commit suicide or murder people.

[Ceirnian]

Death is inevitable, too. But I'm not going to commit suicide or murder people.

Don't worry, I'll do enough murderin for the both of us.

[MNJetter]

Exactly what mawande said. The fatal flaw in the fatalist's perspective (heh...I made a pun XD) is that the effort isn't worth it if you're going to fail anyway. But if you're going to die anyway, why bother living? If you're going to get hungry again, why bother eating? If you aren't smart enough to get an A in class, why bother learning at all?

Sitting back and watching might be easier for you, but what about that someone else who you expect to solve all the problems? What if they decided to just take it easy too? How do you know that you are not the one all the other fatalists of the world are counting on to get stuff done?

Your attitude towards the environment is juvenile and irresponsible, full of finger pointing at other people and no sense that you are, in fact, a part of the "society" and "economy" that you blame for global warming. They're not just faceless entities, and you can't just not be included when you blame them for stuff. More than that, in fact. It's people like you who are the reason why the global warming crisis has become, in fact, a crisis. While the rest of us rally our efforts and do our damndest to keep our species alive, which is the prime directive of all life forms, people like you sit back and wonder why it's not happening faster. It's not because it won't make a difference that you won't go to the effort, it's because it inconveniences you. Even if someone banged on your door tomorrow afternoon and convinced you that you could singlehandedly save the environment if you were willing to put your money/effort into it, you probably wouldn't do it. You'll probably deny it if you reply to my post, but that's because it won't actually happen; you've still got excuses left, and you always will.

[SlickWilly440]

Exactly what mawande said. The fatal flaw in the fatalist's perspective (heh...I made a pun XD) is that the effort isn't worth it if you're going to fail anyway. But if you're going to die anyway, why bother living? If you're going to get hungry again, why bother eating? If you aren't smart enough to get an A in class, why bother learning at all?

I'm only applying fatalism to things that have not succeeded in the past or do not have convincing enough evidence to succeed; not to trivial every day things. I guess if one's goal is to never die, never go hungry, and/or never get an A, then just giving up would be the way to go.

Sitting back and watching might be easier for you, but what about that someone else who you expect to solve all the problems? What if they decided to just take it easy too?

I guess it's kind of like a religion, you have to have faith....

How do you know that you are not the one all the other fatalists of the world are counting on to get stuff done?

Because I have no interest in the environmental sciences or solving those problems nor have I ever had any interests in working in such fields.

Your attitude towards the environment is juvenile and irresponsible, full of finger pointing at other people and no sense that you are, in fact, a part of the "society" and "economy" that you blame for global warming.

That is kind of like blaming soldiers who were forced to fight and destroy because the environment forced them to do so in order to survive. We are all victims in contributing to the Earth's pollution because the institutions/government/economy/society leave us with no other choices in order to survive. It's either conform or suffer the consequences and die.

It's like Catch 22, to stop global warming and continue our existence we have to stop polluting, but by doing so we risk our existence because we rely on things that pollute the environment to survive.

They're not just faceless entities, and you can't just not be included when you blame them for stuff.

The entities seem pretty faceless when there is a huge group consisting of billions of people around the world and their is not a single person all the blame can be put on, when the contribution is a group effort. I wasn't intentionally singling myself out when I was blaming the faceless entities.

More than that, in fact. It's people like you who are the reason why the global warming crisis has become, in fact, a crisis.

I'm only one person, don't single me out. Be hey, if you want to find a person to take your frustration out on, I'm cool with that.

While the rest of us rally our efforts and do our damndest to keep our species alive, which is the prime directive of all life forms, people like you sit back and wonder why it's not happening faster.

Well it's kind of hard to rally our efforts to do something because we have other constraints and responsibilities to attend to, that is why we have to expect other people to solve the problems for us. So it's not like I'm sitting back and watching it happen, I'm doing other things that I'm constrained to and watching it happen.

It's not because it won't make a difference that you won't go to the effort, it's because it inconveniences you.

Actually it's kind of both, it won't make a difference, and it would inconvenience me and others at the same time. And I hate inconveniencing others.

Even if someone banged on your door tomorrow afternoon and convinced you that you could singlehandedly save the environment if you were willing to put your money/effort into it, you probably wouldn't do it.

I would do it if the plan had enough evidence of working and I knew I was not being tricked. But then again, I don't trust people who come up to my door asking for stuff; especially the guy that's dressed up as a utility worker who needs to get inside my house to check the electricity because more than likely he doesn't work for the utility company and only wants to get inside, bind me up, and rob me.

You'll probably deny it if you reply to my post, but that's because it won't actually happen; you've still got excuses left, and you always will.

I don't think I denied it, and off course I will always have excuses because I have created a list that I add excuses to each and everyday.

[MNJetter]

I'm only one person, don't single me out. Be hey, if you want to find a person to take your frustration out on, I'm cool with that.
I'm singling you out to take my frustration out on because you're the one who caused it. You might not have caused global warming to get this far, but it's the momentum of people like you who allow the greater entities of society to allow it in the first place. You see it as society being too strong of a force for an individual like you to stop. I think that it's the collective dead weight of millions of individuals like you that make it impossible for the rest of society to actually do something about it.

I'm not saying you have to go buy a solar paneled house and an electric car and put "Go Green!" all over your new collection of recycled-cotton shirts. But there are little everyday things that you can do that are more environmentally friendly than alternatives that are just as convenient. Using fabric shopping bags instead of plastic, for example, or bringing your own silverware to a fast-food restaurant that only has disposable. From the way you talk, it sounds like you're not even making small compromises like that. If you are, then I've misunderstood you. If not, I still contend that it's pure laziness and childish selfishness, not actual logic, that is fueling your fatalistic attitude.

[Matt W]

It's like Catch 22, to stop global warming and continue our existence we have to stop polluting, but by doing so we risk our existence because we rely on things that pollute the environment to survive.


That is totally a false choice. There is no reason that "going green" can't be beneficial to our economy and our daily lives. I think you just like saying outrageous things, or else you don't have even a basic understanding of what you are talking about.

[SlickWilly440]

I'm singling you out to take my frustration out on because you're the one who caused it. You might not have caused global warming to get this far, but it's the momentum of people like you who allow the greater entities of society to allow it in the first place.

Well shouldn't you be more frustrated at the entities that cause the problems, than the people who stood by and did nothing?

You see it as society being too strong of a force for an individual like you to stop.

Off course I do, who doesn't? Sure an individual can make a difference....only when that one person is able to convince others and rally a whole bunch of other people to be dedicated to the same causes.

I think that it's the collective dead weight of millions of individuals like you that make it impossible for the rest of society to actually do something about it.

You are absolutely right. I think the reason for this dead weight it because a lot of people are focused on themselves and their close family and friends, instead of thinking about the whole group of people. I blame the school system because from day one it is always about the individual student. For the the most part it's about individual grades, individual homework/test, etc. School doesn't teach use to work in groups while actually caring for the sake of the group, most people just care about what they have to do to succeed in the group, not as a group.

So in the end you have a bunch of people seeking out their own dreams and ambitions, while not focusing on the health of the group that we call society. The government/economy is able to take advantage of that fact and use it towards their own means.

I'm not saying you have to go buy a solar paneled house and an electric car and put "Go Green!" all over your new collection of recycled-cotton shirts. But there are little everyday things that you can do that are more environmentally friendly than alternatives that are just as convenient. Using fabric shopping bags instead of plastic, for example, or bringing your own silverware to a fast-food restaurant that only has disposable.

Well, switching to alternatives is unpatriotic. If I stopped using plastic shopping bags and disposable eating utensils, then the less that business will need those things. In turn, the people that work to manufacture those products will sell less and American workers might end up losing their jobs. If more people did the same thing, then that effect will increase by many.

Also, if I brought my own silverware to a fast-food restaurant, people would look at me funny, and that would be too embarrassing for me. Also, if I used fabric shopping bags instead of plastics, then I wouldn't have any plastic shopping bags to use as garbage bags, and therefore would have to buy regular garbage bags.

From the way you talk, it sounds like you're not even making small compromises like that. If you are, then I've misunderstood you. If not, I still contend that it's pure laziness and childish selfishness, not actual logic, that is fueling your fatalistic attitude.

Even though I'm not making small compromises, compared to the average consumer, I'm contributing way less to global warming because of my lifestyle. I'm just not sure what I'm doing less, compared to the average consumer.

It's like Catch 22, to stop global warming and continue our existence we have to stop polluting, but by doing so we risk our existence because we rely on things that pollute the environment to survive. That is totally a false choice. There is no reason that "going green" can't be beneficial to our economy and our daily lives. I think you just like saying outrageous things, or else you don't have even a basic understanding of what you are talking about.

I think I am doing a little bit of both.

I was talking in the worst case scenario, where the entire world would have to stop relying on modern conveniences because they cause green house gases; meaning there would be no industry, power utilities, and mass food production. Then everything would have to be done by manual/animal labor and many people would end up dying b/c a huge population must rely on mass production of goods.

[MNJetter]

Well shouldn't you be more frustrated at the entities that cause the problems, than the people who stood by and did nothing?
It's useless to rail against the entities that caused the problems in the past. My goal is to focus on the entities that are preventing the solution in the future. Namely, people like you.

Well, switching to alternatives is the only patriotic thing to do. If I stopped using plastic shopping bags and disposable eating utensils, then the less that business will need those things. In turn, the people that work to manufacture those products will sell less and workers in third-world sweatshops might end up losing their jobs. If more people did the same thing, then that effect will increase by many, and landfills will fill up at astronomically slower rates than in the past, keeping America clean and beautiful
Fixed it for you. :3

Also, just to let you know, I bring my own silverware to fast food places. Nobody looks at me funny...I have yet to have anybody look at me at all, in fact. I have another friend who does the same thing, and everybody looks at her, because she's a rabid environmentalist and wants everybody to know what she's doing to save the world. The amount of attention people will pay to your environmental efforts depends almost entirely on the amount of attention you actively solicit.

[SlickWilly440]

Also, just to let you know, I bring my own silverware to fast food places. Nobody looks at me funny...I have yet to have anybody look at me at all, in fact.

I kind of assumed from the last post that you brought your own silverware. Do/did you also bring your own chopsticks instead of using the disposable ones?

I have another friend who does the same thing, and everybody looks at her, because she's a rabid environmentalist and wants everybody to know what she's doing to save the world. The amount of attention people will pay to your environmental efforts depends almost entirely on the amount of attention you actively solicit.

How does your friend get other peoples attention to the fact she is using silverware at fast food places?

[h2orowe]

Willy, I can't recall if it was you or not who claimed to be Buddhist, might have been someone else, but if it is you that is Buddhist then by being a fatalist, you aren't being a very good Buddhist. Sitting back and letting others do things is jeopardizing the lives and futures of others. Regardless of whether or not you care about doing the right thing, you should at least strive to do it, for, if anything, improving your karma. So what if people look at you weird in fast food restaurants for using real silverware? Ignore them. You don't speak with most strangers anyway and I'm sure you live in a town big enough to where a minor social infraction like that will cause gossip to spread like wildfire.

If global warming is man made or at least sped up by us then it is our duty to do all we can to either stop it or slow it down. If you hate people, which is a bad thing for a Buddhist to do, then do it for the animals or the plants. Their blood will be on your hands if you do not at least do the bare minimum to help. Being a fatalist when it comes to the environment is a lot like being a German citizen in World War 2. You might not be Hitler or an SS Soldier (the cause of it) but you're sure as hell not helping the situation get any better by allowing them to murder innocent people. Martin Luther King Jr. said "He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it. "

You don't have to come up with some miracle invention that saves all our asses but you can at least help the environment out.

[Jetsetlemming]

If you're so environmentally conscious that you bring your own washable utensils to fast food places, it's kind of defeating the purpose to be eating fast food to begin with.
Also who orders the kind of food you need a knife and fork for at a fast food place. I mean, jesus, if you want a salad there are just about infinite better options.

[Roxie]

Bakeries and cafes. "Chinese food" and "Italian" eateries, Jetset.
Wasn't that hard.

Even if global warming is irreversible (and I sincerely hope not), I still think the pursuit in being more conscious of how we treat our planet is worth it.

[SlickWilly440]

Willy, I can't recall if it was you or not who claimed to be Buddhist, might have been someone else, but if it is you that is Buddhist then by being a fatalist, you aren't being a very good Buddhist.

I never claimed to be a Buddhist. I never claimed to be anything. But I do vaguely recall someone saying they were Buddhist on a recent post in another topic.

Going Green Tip #01: Wash, ReLube, ReRoll, & ReUse Condoms.



Edit:
Hey, I think I might be a fatalist. "I'm a fatalist and proud of it." Such a relief to get that off my chest.

Oh wait...I claimed to be a Fatalist.

[Jetsetlemming]

Bakeries and cafes. "Chinese food" and "Italian" eateries, Jetset.
Wasn't that hard.

Even if global warming is irreversible (and I sincerely hope not), I still think the pursuit in being more conscious of how we treat our planet is worth it.
Bakeries and cafes and italian restaurants aren't "fast food". Chinese is arguable.
I've never been to a cafe/diner that doesn't have its own silverware instead of using disposable plastic ones.

[Roxie]

Well, they exist.
I said "eateries", specifically, NOT restaurants.

[akitaka]

what about kfc? unless you're the hands-on-my-chicken sort of person. teehee.

[japanat]

Actually a fair number of people here do carry their own chopsticks around. Since you can get them with cases, it's really convenient to just slip them in your pocket or pack and keep them with you at all times. People may occasionally be surprised but they don't do more than one quick double-take anyways. All students take chopsticks to school with their bentos.

Hell, I used to take chopsticks to the cafeteria at my dorm at Colorado State, and I wasn't even a Japanophile. I just liked the way it reduced how much I could shove in at one time, and I didn't have to worry if the dishwashers had actually cleaned that fork (they were pretty disgusting, sometimes).

[SlickWilly440]

I just liked the way it reduced how much I could shove in at one time, and I didn't have to worry if the dishwashers had actually cleaned that fork (they were pretty disgusting, sometimes).

I agree, chopsticks forces one to consciously pace oneself while eating. The person has to actually focus on what to pick up, unlike a fork/spoon that one can just randomly poke/spoon without looking. This allows one to have a longer lasting meal and appreciate it more.

[MNJetter]

I kind of assumed from the last post that you brought your own silverware. Do/did you also bring your own chopsticks instead of using the disposable ones?
Yup ^^
In fact, I have a pair that collapses down into a container that looks like a big lipstick tube. It's fun to use.
Though I should clarify that I don't lug a whole set of silverware around with me. If I know ahead of time that I'm going to a fast-food place, I'll stick a fork in my purse, but otherwise, I'll use the chopsticks for just about anything. They're just more convenient than western silverware for that purpose.

Alternatively, you can do what my mom does. She get the disposable silverware, but instead of throwing it away, she'll take it home and wash it, and then she'll find ways to re-use it, whether it's bringing them out at parties, using them again at the restaurant where she got them from, etc.

How does your friend get other peoples attention to the fact she is using silverware at fast food places?
She'll strike up conversations with people sitting nearby, or give friends sitting with her a mild lecture if they aren't using their own silverware too. I mean, I'll defend environmentally-friendly practices if it comes up in conversation, but she lives and breathes the stuff.

[riona]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw

Here's what I think about this, mostly.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw

Here's what I think about this, mostly.
*yawn*

[riona]

*yawn*
Eh, I suppose you have to understand it to be entertained.

[Roxie]

or you could understand and yet find it not entertaining.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

Eh, I suppose you have to understand it to be entertained.
I don't see what's so special about it. It's just Carlin going off on one of his rants and acting more like a washed up public speaker than actually trying to be funny. I really can't do much more than just roll my eyes at it. And well, yawn.

[MNJetter]

It was pretty funny for about thirty seconds. Not even Carlin can make it funny for 7 minutes, though.

Besides, it's not like he was that clever about it, either. He's just reiterating the typical cynic's perspective on environmentalism. Personally, I don't see what's wrong with saving our own species being a motivation for environmentalism. Survival is a driving instinct for all life. If it makes people feel better to call it "saving the planet," cool. A little self-deluded, but if it serves the greater purpose, excellent.

[Kai]

Looks like its time to bring out the construction plans.:watson:

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/Fenrir07/Oniel_Cylinder.jpg

I've been a long time cynic of environmentalism atleast the more radical kind. I do my own part in my daily life but I'm not going to go out of my way for it.

[glowinthedarkcheese]

Actually, the most dominant greenhouse gas is water vapor, and humans contribute to less than 0.28% of global warming. Want evidence? Read the following link:

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

To see the water vapor thing, skip to step 3 on the site