Police fatally shoot an unarmed man, while he is laying face down.

[Roxie]

Caught on Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAHjhtYZpX0) WARNING! The shooting is clearly shown on video

From CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/06/BART.shooting/?iref=mpstoryview)
(CNN) -- A New Year's Day shooting in which a subway police officer fired a deadly shot into the back of an unarmed man has the San Francisco Bay Area demanding answers as authorities appeal for patience.
Oscar Grant, 22, was killed January 1 in a shooting at a subway station in California's Bay Area.

Bay Area Rapid Transit spokesman Linton Johnson told CNN affiliate KTVU-TV in Oakland, California, that the officer is presumed innocent and described him as devastated.

Attorney John Burris called the shooting "unconscionable" and said he filed a $25 million claim with BART on Tuesday, alleging wrongful death and violation of civil rights by use of excessive force. BART has 45 days to respond, Burris said.

"It's a clear shooting in the back that should not have taken place," Burris said, characterizing the incident as a case of "overagressiveness by police."

KTVU obtained at least two videos of the incident and its prelude. One video, which KTVU reported came from a train passenger who wished not to be identified, shows three young men against a wall in the crowded Fruitvale station.

Karina Vargas, who also provided a video to KTVU, said the men had been pulled from the train car in front of hers. Video Watch the events preceding the shooting »

Burris said Tuesday that the young men had been celebrating the new year at a popular waterfront tourist spot, The Embarcadero. They were heading home when police pulled them from the train car.

Some of the young men were handcuffed, but not 22-year-old Oscar Grant. The video from the anonymous passenger shows Grant seated on the floor with his back against the wall.

Grant holds up his hands, appearing to plead with police. Burris said Tuesday that Grant was asking police not to use a Taser.

"He said to them, 'Don't Tase me; I have a 4-year-old daughter,' " Burris said.

The interaction on the video is not audible.

Seconds later, police put Grant face-down on the ground. Grant appears to struggle.

One of the officers kneels on Grant as another officer stands up, tugs at his gun, unholsters it and fires a shot into Grant's back.

Burris said the bullet went through Grant's back and then ricocheted off the floor and through his lungs.

Grant, who has a 4-year-old daughter, died seven hours later, KTVU reported.

"I couldn't believe it. We was already following directions and everything, and they shot him," Fernando Anicete, one of the young men with Grant, told KTVU.

Burris has spoken to witnesses who claim that Grant was trying to resolve the situation.

"He had been telling people to calm down. 'Be cool. Just do what they tell you to do,' " the attorney said.

Johnson said the video provided to KTVU is inconclusive.

There are two surveillance cameras at the Fruitvale station, but a BART official told CNN that no video is being released at this time.

The community is outraged, according to local media. CNN affiliate KRON-TV in San Francisco reported that about 20 people rallied Monday outside BART's district headquarters in Oakland.

"A 22-year-old unarmed father was executed and assassinated, and BART expects us to swallow that the shooting may have been an accident," protest organizer Evan Shamar of Oakland shouted through a bullhorn, according to KRON.

BART says an investigation is ongoing and hasn't reached any conclusions.

The San Francisco Chronicle published an editorial Tuesday demanding answers as well.

"The BART police say that they are taking the investigation very seriously, but they had better find a way to reach out to the public effectively about what is going on and why. Otherwise, public outrage over this case is going to grow exponentially with every passing day," the newspaper said.

BART Police Chief Gary Gee released a statement this week expressing condolences for Grant's family and saying the authority is cooperating with the Alameda County district attorney's office, which is also investigating.

Gee added that BART will complete an "unbiased and thorough investigation" and asked the public to be patient.

"As frustrating as it is, I want to stress that we cannot and will not jeopardize this case by discussing details before the investigation is complete," Gee said.

Gee provided minor details of what preceded the shooting: BART police received a report that two groups of passengers were involved in an altercation as their train left the West Oakland Station about 2 a.m.

"BART police officers responded to the platform at Fruitvale and detained several persons," Gee said in his statement.

BART has not identified the officer, saying only that he has been on the force two years. He has undergone drug and alcohol testing and is on administrative leave, both of which are standard procedure, according to BART.

The officer has yet to make a public statement.

Johnson and Gee say they are refraining from releasing further details to avoid compromising the investigation. Johnson further told KTVU that BART wanted to avoid "polluting the potential pool of witnesses."

Burris, however, said there is no excuse for the use of force on a man being restrained by police. If BART does not grant his $25 million claim or if the authority fails to respond in 45 days, Burris intends to file a lawsuit, he said.

Burris, who served as Rodney King's co-counsel in King's civil case against the Los Angeles Police Department, said he also wants criminal charges filed against the officer.

He is pushing the Alameda County District Attorney Tom Orloff to press second-degree murder or involuntary manslaughter charges, he said.

Second-degree murder charges would be warranted if the officer shot Grant in the back when Grant posed no danger, Burris said. However, there are reports speculating that the officer accidentally shot Grant, in which case involuntary manslaughter charges would be appropriate, Burris said.

"No one wants to believe a cop would just kill somebody like that," he said. "My view is, this is criminal conduct, period."

Johnson told KTVU that authorities are trying to determine whether the officer who shot Grant accidentally drew his gun instead of his Taser.

He also said authorities still need to speak to all the officers but that the BART officers involved in the incident felt outnumbered and called the Oakland Police Department for backup. iReport.com: 'I'm not happy with the state of the police'

"We need to take our time and go through this thoroughly and try to figure everything out. There's more to this story than this one angle," Johnson told the station.

Asked whether there were developments Tuesday, Johnson said he had none.
advertisement

Thomas Blalock, president of BART's board of directors, has urged the public not to jump to conclusions.

"Let's get the puzzle put together, and then we'll come to a conclusion," Blalock told KTVU.

From the LATimes.com (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-bart-shooting7-2009jan07,0,3643705.story)

Slain man's family files $25-million suit in BART shooting
Oscar J. Grant III, 22, was shot early New Year's Day by a transit officer responding to a fight. His lawyer says the incident 'cries out for criminal prosecution.'
By Maria L. La Ganga
7:43 PM PST, January 6, 2009
Reporting from San Francisco -- Graphic video of Oscar J. Grant III's death at an Oakland train station has roiled emotions in the Bay Area, leading to a demonstration at Bay Area Rapid Transit district headquarters and calls for more oversight of the agency's police force.

The family of the 22-year-old father, who was shot to death by a BART police officer early on New Year's Day, filed a $25-million wrongful death claim against the agency Tuesday.

John L. Burris, the long-time civil rights attorney representing Grant's family, called the death "the worst I've ever seen in a shooting case" and said that it "cries out for criminal prosecution."

In amateur videos, the BART officer can be seen shooting the unarmed man in the back as he lay face down while other officers restrained him.

BART spokesman Linton Johnson said in an e-mail that "we have received the claim, and we are carefully reviewing it but cannot comment on it."

In an earlier written statement, BART Police Chief Gary Gee said his agency was "committed to complete an unbiased and thorough investigation" and asked the public to "refrain from jumping to conclusions" about the circumstances surrounding Grant's death.

"We want to express our condolences to the family of Oscar Grant," Gee said. "I want to assure Mr. Grant's family and the public that we are taking this investigation very seriously."

The Alameda County district attorney's office is also investigating, Gee said.

BART officials have not publicly identified the officer involved in the shooting but described him as a two-year veteran of the agency's police force. He underwent drug and alcohol testing after the incident and is on administrative leave, Gee said, "which is standard procedure."

But the claim filed Tuesday by Grant's mother and 4-year-old daughter identifies Johannes Mehserle as the BART officer who "stood over Mr. Grant and mercilessly fired his weapon, mortally wounding Mr. Grant with a single gunshot wound to the back."

Mehserle could not be reached for comment.

There has been speculation that Mehserle may have believed he was reaching for his Taser to stun Grant rather than reaching for his gun to shoot him. To Burris such a distinction is not that important.

"If the officer had a Taser and he thought he was pulling it, to me that's still a criminal act," Burris said. "It means you're negligent, as opposed to knowing you pulled your gun." That, he said, would be "murder."

"I don't want to believe that an officer would just kill someone this way," said Burris, who called on BART officials to say whether Mehserle carried a Taser. "On the other hand, I'm not going to disbelieve my eyes either."

Grant had been celebrating New Year's Eve in San Francisco and was heading back to his East Bay home on a BART train when a fight broke out between two groups of riders about 2 a.m.

BART police met the train at Oakland's Fruitvale station and ordered passengers -- including Grant -- onto the platform.

Video taken by spectators with cellphones shows a chaotic scene, with uniformed officers pulling riders out of a train and then shoving one man onto the ground. While that man is face down, an officer stands over him, pulls his gun and shoots.

The videos have been posted on YouTube, leading to a welter of angry comments, like one Tuesday afternoon declaring, "This is an outrage! That murderer should be captured and prosecuted."

The videos have also been broadcast on local television stations.

According to the claim filed Tuesday, Grant was unarmed "and offered no physical resistance" to BART officers.

"Mr. Grant, fearing for his life, made a valiant effort to de-escalate the situation by appealing to the officer's sense of humanity, telling the officer that he had a four-year-old daughter and asking the officer not to taze him," the claim said. "Witnesses recount that Mr. Grant continuously repeated this prayer for relief to no avail."

Grant's funeral, scheduled for this morning in Hayward, is expected to be heavily attended. A protest at the site of his death has been planned for this afternoon.

And a large turnout is expected Thursday at the regular meeting of the BART board of directors. The shooting is not on the agenda, but board member Tom Radulovich said he planned to introduce a measure to ensure greater oversight of the agency's police force, which has approximately 200 sworn officers.

"The San Francisco Police Department has a police commission. Most other large cities have the same thing," he said. "I actually want to see the BART board step up and give BART police the degree of civilian oversight and review that is the norm in the Bay Area."

[puzzo]

I'll make my decision up later when I can actually tell what's happening, there's not enough evidence in this video for me to say that he clearly wasn't trying to go for his pocket or the officers gun. Geez there's barely enough evidence for me to say that there was a man shot in this video.

[haterllnation]

What more do you need? Man was face down, with a knee to the neck. He wasn't facing the officer that shot, he had no weapon, and he (until the officer went to grab his gun) was rather subdued by two officers. The officer should have finished the job instead of going for a gun.

It reminds me of that incident in Puerto Rico where the cops hand cuffed a man and another cop walked up and shot him in the back of the head (all caught on camera as well...might be on these boards). Crazy. It's cops like this one who ruin the image.

I'd say give them all tasers instead, but I've seen that fail before, too.

Though, one can't be 100% until the investigation is over, it's not looking good for the cop.

[bluestars87]

This happened twenty minutes from where I live. Trust me, I've seen the video in HD. The kid was down by an officer with several around. There was no need for the officer that wasn't holding him down to draw his weapon and fire. Apparently he may have mistaken it for his taser, but that doesn't matter. The weapon should not have been drawn. Bottom line. Apparently the officer has had to move twice recently because he's getting death threats. I almost want to see "rightfully so". He's getting paid leave. With the justice in this country I bet he gets off the hook. The guy needs to be in jail. He murdered someone. Regardless if it was an accident or not. Dude should not be a cop. This is yet another reason why I never trust police...just like I don't trust any other stranger.

[Karthak]

I almost want to see "rightfully so".
Only almost? If he really shot that guy without provocation he deserves be thrown off a building.

[Trump]

Trust me, I've seen the video in HD. The kid was down by an officer with several around.

Cell phones can take video in HD now? Also, that video linked above has a chunk taken out of it. And whoever said "clearly" apparently has a hugely different idea of a clear view of things. How can people use that for anything?

[bluestars87]

Cell phones can take video in HD now? Also, that video linked above has a chunk taken out of it. And whoever said "clearly" apparently has a hugely different idea of a clear view of things. How can people use that for anything?
Fine, you want to see the actual video with sound? This version actually shows the officer firing the gun and you can hear everyone around saying "OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH". Here's an personal eyewitness account of the incident also:

http://www.ktvu.com/video/18409133/index.html

BART would be wise to just settle out of the court, because it seems highly unlikely they'll win this case.

[puzzo]

There still isn't enough evidence for me. The high-def video doesn't show me anything that I would call evidence. And I still can't see that grainy video nearly at all. If I see a better video I will cast judgment, before then I shall not.

[Mastiker]

Huh. This is... wow. Bravo America. Go team.

edit: Cast judgment on what? There's... seriously?

[puzzo]

I can't tell whether or not the guy who got shot is reaching for his pocket or the gun of the officer in front of him, and the high-def video doesn't even show the person who got shot.

I'm not going to say this officer did anything wrong just because somebody died, I don't know all of the things that happened leading up to him being shot. Thus I shall not form an opinion until provided proper evidence.

[Mastiker]

But what could the person on the ground have done that warrants being shot in the back? One officer had him pinned down while the other had his hands behind his back. Even if Grant had been going for a weapon, the officer didn't have to shoot him in the back.

[h2orowe]

Can cops honestly not just shoot the guy's hand if they think he's going for his pockets? I know they're trained to shoot fatally, but at this point, with all the "accidental" deaths that seem to happen pretty frequently, it seems like they'd be better off (especially in this situation where the victim was already on the floor and detained) shooting him in the arm, hand, or somewhere not fatal.

[bluestars87]

I can't tell whether or not the guy who got shot is reaching for his pocket or the gun of the officer in front of him, and the high-def video doesn't even show the person who got shot.

I'm not going to say this officer did anything wrong just because somebody died, I don't know all of the things that happened leading up to him being shot. Thus I shall not form an opinion until provided proper evidence.
Okay I seriously think you're just being ignorant now. There's a point where you could have saved yourself some dignity, but you've just dug yourself into a hole. Did you even watch the entire video in the link I showed you? It shows the kid clearly getting shot with the second eyewitness video. Even if you can't see the evidence clearly do you think that is really going to fly in front of a jury? And according to reports the video matches eyewitness accounts. Plus all of the officers afterwards are clearly shown as confused to what just happened. Not to mention the other day on the local news the BART officer involved mentioned he was trying to reach for his taser instead of his gun. He admitted he made a mistake. There is no more evidence that is needed. The evidence is there, you're just deciding to ignore for reasons unknown. The cop shot someone in the back when the weapon should not have been drawn. Not only should the weapon not have been drawn, but the officer just had to shoot the person in the back when he was clearly subdued on the ground surrounded by several officers. Does it seem logical that a person who was subdued on the ground in front of several officers was going to try and mount an assault when the odds were clearly not in his favor? Like I said, BART would be wise to settle out of court.

[Citizen]

A cop who's been on the force for two years forgot where his taser is and then didn't notice by shape/weight/apperance that he was holding a gun? Well shucks, that wraps it up for me.

Around here they'll taser you even if you have a knife and aren't restrained. And the last time they had to shoot someone, they, as h2orowe suggested, opted for a non-fatal shoulder shot.

Edit: And that was only after tasering him twice didn't work. He was an insane guy with a knife who kept rambling on about being God or being sent by God.

Okay I seriously think you're just being ignorant now. There's a point where you could have saved yourself some dignity, but you've just dug yourself into a hole. Even if you can't see the evidence clearly do you think that is really going to fly in front of a jury?

I'm not really trying to defend puzzo here, but yes, technically inconclusive evidence shouldn't fly in front of a jury. That's kinda how our justice system works. We'd be a third-world shithole otherwise.

[shinobi_kokujin]

yet another reason why i dont trust most cops and cant stand them.

[Roxie]

Embattled BART Officer Resigns

OAKLAND, Calif. (KCBS) -- The BART police officer who shot and killed an unarmed man after an altercation at Fruitvale Station has resigned.

Officer Johannes Mehserle's attorney and union representative submitted his resignation letter at a meeting with BART investigators this morning. The officer himself was not present.
ListenKCBS Reports

Mehserle has not yet spoken with investigators about the shooting, but BART spokesman Linton Johnson said it appears Mehserle is being cooperative but his attorney hasn't made him available.

BART investigators have urged the officer to meet and cooperate with the transit agency’s investigation into the fatal shooting.

BART Police investigators have notified the Alameda County District Attorney’s Office of the resignation and this development. The District Attorney’s office is conducting an independent probe of the January 1, 2009 shooting.

Meanwhile, the BART Police investigation will continue to seek and examine all available evidence and will continue its full cooperation with the ongoing independent investigation by the District Attorney.

“This shooting is a tragic event in every respect for all involved,” BART General Manager Dorothy Dugger said. “We recognize that the family and friends of Oscar Grant are in mourning and we extend our condolences.”

Copyright 2009, KCBS. All Rights Reserved.

[Roxie]

Another video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idJAr6NUy3E&eurl=http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/07/execution-style/&feature=player_embedded)

[TommyA]

Isn't that what the police are here for? To abuse their power and guns?

[riona]

Isn't that what the police are here for? To abuse their power and guns?

Of course.

[PopCulturePooka]

Looks like there were more than a few videos taken.

Second one Roxie posted, the youtube one, interesting.

It looks like the Pig takes his gun out the holster while still crouching down. He then stands up straight before taking the shot (one handed).

More than enough to time to go 'Oh fuck me, this ain't mah tazer bro'.

[puzzo]

I'm not really trying to defend puzzo here, but yes, technically inconclusive evidence shouldn't fly in front of a jury. That's kinda how our justice system works. We'd be a third-world shithole otherwise.

I'm not saying what he did was right, or even warranted. What I am saying is if I was on a jury I would have to say this is inconclusive, thus I wouldn't find the officer guilty. All that other garbage your telling me wasn't presented thus I had no comment on it.

Seriously all I'm doing is acting as someone on a jury should act. Question everything and ask for evidence. Yet as soon as I do I get bombarded with insults.

[MNJetter]

I'm not going to go around insulting you, because the things you say about how a jury member should act is correct. But I'm confused as to what exactly you find inconclusive about the video clips.

Also, protip, if you want to be taken seriously on the internet, don't use self-aggrandizing words like "cast judgment" and "shall". They make you sound like you've got your nose in the air.

[puzzo]

Oh good point. Yeah I couldn't tell in the low quality video Exactly what happened, but in the high quality video it didn't show, as far as I could tell, what happened leading up to the shooting. What I was mainly looking for was to see if the victim was trying to reach for his pocket, or the holster of the gun of the officer by his neck, but the low quality I couldn't tell, and the High didn't have it in focus.

And I didn't watch the other video that Roxie posted because I don't want to sign in for youtube :P

[archdukezeb]

Its weird the guys who were being arrested looked pretty come in the video but then everyone else at the stations was just standing around jeering the police. What were they arresting the men for anyways?

In the second video its pretty easy to see that the cop shot him without any justifiable reason. The man draws his gun backs up like 1-2 feet away from him. Pauses for a moment. Then shoots him as the guy is laying still restrained on the floor. The only possible defense he could have is if he thought it was his tazer but I doubt that would fly.

[Kannon]

Watching this video (all three) literally made me sick to my stomach. This kind of shit is exactly why I hear (read) "pig" and how people on this board (and everywhere for that matter) do not trust law enforcement individuals. As an officer of the law (military law; yes on bases with military housing and permanent residents we act as actual law enforcement in addition to our security duties. While not being exactly the same as civilian law, we are taught many of the same duties and responsibilities because we may too find ourselves in a similar situation) I can say I hope to fucking hell that that our shitty judicial system finds this piece of shit guilty for murder. No accidental bullshit, whoops thought it was my taser, fuck that. There is a reason officers are trained to neutralize the threat not "fatally wound". Why officers are trained to keep non-lethal weapons on the opposite side of their lethal weapons. Why an officer(s) get suspects at a disadvantage (say, laying face down on the concrete with no way to see what is going on behind you). Why we are trained to use the minimum amount of force necessary. I'm sorry but I literally feel ill. Not enough evidence? For what? "I want to see if he was reaching for his pocket or the officers gun." This isn't a fucking movie. He was at a disadvantage, surrounded by cops. Shooting him in the back with a lethal weapon was not a reasonable response to the subject's actions. He reaches for your gun in that situation, you pull away. There was another officer at his fucking head for Christ's sake! I honestly don't even know where to go from here. This was just sad, and I hope this worthless sack of shit goes to jail for what he did. What he did contributes to the poor image of law enforcement officers everywhere, in every uniform. Not that this is the worst of this situation, that obviously being the lives of the victims loved ones. Anyway now I've lost my train of thought and am just rambling...

[mawande]

But is BART actual police? Doesn't sound like police.

[Kannon]

Subway cop was my understanding, I never did catch what "BART" is, actually.

[bluestars87]

Subway cop was my understanding, I never did catch what "BART" is, actually.
It's basically the subway transportation here in the bay area.

[Roxie]

Bay Area Rapid Transit?
That's my guess.

Protests over BART shooting turn violent
(http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/07/MN2N155CN1.DTL&tsp=1)
Demian Bulwa, Charles Burress, Matthew B. Stannard,Matthai Kuruvila, Chronicle Staff Writers


A protest over the fatal shooting by a BART police officer of an unarmed man mushroomed into several hours of violence Wednesday night as demonstrators smashed storefronts and cars, set several cars ablaze and blocked streets in downtown Oakland.

The roving mob expressed fury at police and frustration over society's racial injustice. Yet the demonstrators were often indiscriminate, frequently targeting the businesses and prized possessions of people of color.

They smashed a hair salon, a pharmacy and several restaurants. Police in riot gear tried to control the crowd, but some people retreated along 14th Street and bashed cars along the way.

The mob smashed the windows at Creative African Braids on 14th Street, and a woman walked out of the shop holding a baby in her arms.

"This is our business," shouted Leemu Topka, the black owner of the salon she started four years ago. "This is our shop. This is what you call a protest?"

Wednesday night's vandalism victims had nothing to do with the shooting death by a BART police officer of Oscar Grant on New Year's Day - but that did little to sway the mob.

"I feel like the night is going great," said Nia Sykes, 24, of San Francisco, one of the demonstrators. "I feel like Oakland should make some noise. This is how we need to fight back. It's for the murder of a black male."

Sykes, who is black, had little sympathy for the owner of Creative African Braids.

"She should be glad she just lost her business and not her life," Sykes said. She added that she did have one worry for the night: "I just hope nobody gets shot or killed."

The protest had started calmly shortly after 3 p.m. at the Fruitvale Station in Oakland, where BART police Officer Johannes Mehserle shot 22-year-old Grant of Hayward a week ago. BART shut down the station well into the evening commute, although the demonstration there was peaceful.

However, shortly after nightfall, a group of roughly 200 protesters split off and headed toward downtown Oakland, prompting the transit agency to close the Lake Merritt and 12th Street stations. The group wreaked havoc through much of downtown, drawing hundreds of police in riot gear. It wasn't until roughly 10:40 p.m that police clamped down on the mob, arresting dozens who were cornered near the Paramount Theatre, and bringing an end to the mayhem.

Earlier in the evening, Oakland Mayor Ron Dellums met the mob on 14th Street, urging calm and leading them on a walk to City Hall, where he gave a speech.

"I sense your frustration," he told the crowd. "I understand that you've lost confidence in a process because you've seen what you believe is a homicide ... But listen to me, we are a community of people. We are civilized people. We are a nation of laws.

"I'm asking people to disperse," the mayor said to the couple hundred people in the crowd. "Let's leave in a spirit of peace."

But soon after, a man shouted "that's the modern day lynching" and the mob quickly continued its rampage, smashing at least seven storefronts on 17th street between Franklin and Webster streets. They also smashed eight cars, including four belonging to the City of Oakland.

Near 14th and Alice streets, Myron Bell was taking dance lessons in "step," a form of dance popular among African Americans, when he looked out the window and saw people jumping on his Lexus sedan.

Bell, 42, came out to find that almost all of the car's windows, including the front and back had been smashed and it appeared that someone had tried to set the car on fire.

"I'm for the cause," said Bell, who is black. "But I'm against the violence and destruction."

Nearby, Godhuli Bose stood near her smashed Toyota Corolla as a man walked by, repeatedly called her a misogynist slur and then added, "F- your car."

Bose, a high school teacher, said: "I can't afford this."

Earlier in the evening, when the mob first appeared downtown, Oakland Police Officer Michael Cardoza parked his car across the intersection of Eighth and Madison streets, to prevent traffic from flowing toward Broadway and into the protest. But he told The Chronicle that a group of 30 to 40 protesters quickly surrounded his car and started smashing it with bottles and rocks.

Cardoza jumped out of the car and said some protesters tried to set the car on fire, while others jumped on top of the hood - incidents repeatedly shown on television. Cardoza said the protesters "were trying to entice us into doing something." A Chronicle reporter saw a fist-sized rock in the back seat.

A group of protesters also set a trash bin aflame, moving it adjacent to the police car.

Police threw tear gas into the group to disperse it, said BART Sgt. Mark MacAulay. After 8 p.m., there were numerous arrests.

"When you get that mob mentality, it can be dangerous," MacAulay said.

Other protesters marched on BART's 12th Street Station about 7 p.m., prompting the transit agency to close the downtown hub station even as it was reopening the Lake Merritt and Fruitvale stations.

The mob blocked the intersection of 14th and Broadway, near the downtown BART station entrance. As police put on helmets and gas masks and stood in a line formation, some demonstrators held signs that read, "Your idea of justice?" and "Jail Killer Cops."

One man lay in the intersection with his face down and his hands behind his back - intentionally evoking the position that Grant was in when he was shot.

Some in the mob wore masks over their faces as they yelled at police. Roughly a dozen stood just a few feet away from police as they screamed at them. Chants included "pigs go home," "the fascist police, no justice, no peace" and "we are all Oscar Grant."

Mandingo Hayes, who is black, said he participated in the protest because "we're tired of all these police agencies getting away with shooting unarmed black and Latino males."

Hayes, 36, downplayed the attack on the police car.

"For a police car to get abused, and for a person to get shot and killed, which would you rather be?" said Hayes, a construction worker from San Pablo.

As the night wore on, Hayes tried calming people down, asking for peace.

The core group of the mob appeared to be about 40 people, several of whom were with Revolution Books, a Berkeley bookstore. A man distributed the "Revolution" newspaper - whose tagline is "voice of the Revolutionary Communist Party, U.S.A." - as he shouted "This whole damn system is guilty!"

Soo Jung Sung didn't understand why she was to blame. She wept as she looked at the shattered front windshield of her Nissan Montero.

"Emotionally, I totally understand them," she said of the upset over Grant's shooting. "But it's not nice."

E-mail the writers at dbulwa@sfchronicle.com, cburress@sfchronicle.com, mstannard@sfchronicle.com and mkuruvila@sfchronicle.com.

[Roxie]

This was the blog post over at feministe (http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/07/execution-style/).
I thought it was excellent and the comments are worth a looking over too.
Whether you agree or disagree, there is some good info tucked in there.

On New Year’s morning, the San Francisco BART police–yes, transit cops–dragged a bunch of young men off a train, including Oscar Grant. An officer then proceeded to execute Grant of them with a gunshot through the back, while he was restrained and lying face-down on the ground.

I think you should watch the videos, if you think you can handle it. They made me want to throw up, made me feel dizzy and aching, but they’re important. If bystanders hadn’t been leaning out of their trains with cellphone cameras, this incident might have passed largely unnoticed. According to witnesses, the BART police reacted immediately by confiscating cameras and phones in the name of “evidence.” The two videos that have surfaced were apparently taken by people who managed to keep their phones because the train started moving before the cops could get them. You have wonder why some city governments have been pushing in recent years to criminalize recording video in public without a license.

Oscar Grant left behind a 4-year-old daughter, along with the rest of his family. It’s not entirely clear yet what happened during the incident, and it may never be. He was apparently not one of the initial group dragged off the train–one of the videos shows him unrestrained and standing up, trying to intercede with the police. According to witnesses, he was trying to de-escalate the situation between the cops and his friends. This is not an isolated incident, not by a long shot. This kind of thing happens all the time: out-of-control police violence in response to non-violent communication. It happens to people of color, and to queer folks too. It happened to me and Jack a little more than a year ago, along with a group of colleagues and friends, for asking the police why they were making an arrest. An officer decided to pepper spray our group, without any real provocation. We’re lucky, and privileged, that it wasn’t a gun.

Who knows what’s going through these cops’ heads? Are they freaking out, paranoid, fearful, are they untrained, do they have no idea what to do? What really matters to me is that they’ve been given weapons to use, and they’re wiling to use them at the slightest provocation, up to and including lethal force. What matters is that any questioning of their authority, whether you’re holding a camera or trying to de-escalate a situation, is seen as a challenge that has to be put down, by taking your stuff away, or “crowd-controlling” you, or killing you. We should all be scared. Especially if you’re part of a frequently-profiled community.

I’m not even going to try and draw any connections to feminism this time around, like I did with Sean Bell. I don’t want to have that meaningless argument about what’s feminism and what’s not. Fuck that shit, really. It’s not even necessary–everyone should care about this kind of thing going down, regardless of who you are, as a matter of human rights and people being crushed by state power. People with deadly weapons, who are supposed to be protecting our communities, and who far too often end up as panicked bullies exacting deadly retribution on anyone who gets in their way. It doesn’t even have to be a feminist issue if that bothers you so much; decent human beings still ought to listen up and speak out, and we’ll still talk about it on this blog.

I want to stress one more thing. The news is reporting that the police “felt outnumbered.” This is exactly the same reason they gave for pepper-spraying the crowd that Jack and I were in. But let’s be clear — it doesn’t have anything to do with numbers. If it had been a quiet crowd ignoring the police and just sitting on the train, the numbers wouldn’t matter. They “felt outnumbered” because a lot of people watching were demanding to know what was going on, yelling, and refusing to just “mind their own business.” People who were demanding to know what was happening, because they know that abuses happen far too often and take far too many lives, and that someone has to watch the watchers.

Unfortunately, to police this makes you “the enemy,” especially if you’re making your voice heard, yelling, demanding to know what’s going on. The police, whether because of training or inculcated philosophy or temperament, see this as a potential riot, and they escalate the situation. The solution to this problem is not to just mind our own business and go about our lives even when we see unwarranted arrests and unnecessary brutality and violence happening. It’s to hold the police accountable, organizationally as well as individually. It’s to let the government know that this kind of thing will not stand. It’s to make it clear that in a society where the “guardians” too often become murderous bullies who overstep their bounds and take innocent lives, we all have a right AND a duty to speak out and let them know they’re being watched. It’s to make it clear that the police need to be able to deal with this like professionals if they’re going to be allowed to carry weapons that injure, incapacitate, and kill.

Two days after Grant was murdered, I went to the Gaza protests in New York City to do the exact same thing — hold the police accountable and let them know that someone was watching them. I feel privileged and fortunate that the police didn’t react to me in the same way that they did the crowd at the Fruitvale station. I was protected by one simple and silly thing: a hideously ugly, bright green cap marking me as a legal observer representing the National Lawyer’s Guild. I was able to walk right through police lines and barricades by looking like I was doing my job and belonged there, and right up to the site of potential altercations between police and angry youth, and I would like to believe that my presence on at least one occasion helped defuse what was happening. But it doesn’t always work, not even if you have a green hat on. Sometimes the cops decide that everyone who’s not looking the other way is simply their enemy, or “interfering with the administration of police duties.” Sometimes they decide you’re a bunch of unruly kids (who just HAPPEN to be brown-skinned) and try to put you down.

Keep your eyes open. Let them know you’re watching. But be careful.

[KAIZOKUx]

This is so insane to me. I take BART to SF for school everyday and that is the station I get on. Why the fuck did this happen?

[bluestars87]

Bay Area Rapid Transit?
That's my guess.
The people in Oakland smashing cars were mostly kid thugs just looking for a reason to vandalize. It was ridiculously stupid. Reminds me of when people tore up Oakland after the Super Bowl the Raiders lost a few years ago. I bet a lot of the people outside didn't even know that much about the situation.

[Plekto]

Unfortunately, it seems as if the screening and training process in most major cities is a fraction as well done as in the military.

I mean, seriously - when was the last time you heard about a MP actually shooting someone other than cracking some heads and using what most of us would consider harsh to acceptable force. You're right - if the guy does reach for your gun in that situation, you can either move away, kick him, restrain him, break his arm... the list is almost endless if he's face down on the ground. Shooting someone has to be about the last choice available.

Unfortunately, and I know this living in Los Angeles, it's often seen as a first choice.

Suspect is running away? Shoot him.
Suspect is moving erratically? Shoot him.
Suspect is moving his hands towards something? Shoot him.
Suspect isn't stopping? Shoot him.
Suspects are outnumbering you? Shoot them all instead of asking for backup.

I'm thinking most of these people shouldn't be given guns at all. It's not like several police officers couldn't deal with one guy with other types of weapons. Last I checked, the average officer here in Los Angeles has mace, a tazer, a baton, handcuffs, and possibly a bulletproof vest or some kind or other concealed weapons or armor.

[Karthak]

This is so insane to me. I take BART to SF for school everyday and that is the station I get on. Why the fuck did this happen?
Because that murderer was probably a trigger-happy bully?

[Trump]

OK, after watching the videos... here is what I see. The police are involved with a group of people. Something is going on and for some reason they need to get one guy on the ground. None of the others being arrested make any strange reaction and the officers seem to be on the same page. It makes me think this was probably what the officers really needed to do. Then something happens, one cop looks seriously overwhelmed by the situation, grabs his gun and shoots the guy. His body language and the way he is holding the gun make it look like he doesn't know how to handle the situation and isn't thinking straight. It isn't like he lines up the shot and shoots with the intention to kill this guy. He almost seems hesitant and afraid of what is going on. The other cops even have this "what the hell?" kind of reaction. Obviously, no one is in control of this situation.

So, my final words. Did the cop shoot the man? Yes, that is not up for debate at all. Did he mean to kill or even shoot him? I'd have to say no. Yet, the world is now shouting murderer and placing him on the same level as a serial killer who carefully plans every detail of his kills. This is completely uncalled for and shows the insanity and sensationalism of the news and its audience. Seriously, people have a choice. They can jump to conclusions and make a media field day out of this story or they can treat it like a tragic situation that has ruined many lives and try to figure out what really happened and make the best out of it. It makes me sick to see what the people have chosen.

[Kannon]

Law enforcement individuals cannot afford to make that sort of "accident". If he didn't mean to shoot him, it means he shouldn't have had a lethal weapon entrusted to him. I can understand that accidents like that can happen, but I didn't see this as an accident. There was too much lag time between all the movements. Hands up while kneeling, officers surrounding him, laying down, shouting, officers surveying the situation, dude stands up and shoots the victim. Accidents happen in the heat of battle, not while you have an individual at a disadvantage. Regardless of how I feel about the situation after having watched the videos, I can entertain the idea that the shooter could have made a mistake. That doesn't change the fact that he shouldn't have been in that position to make that mistake if he was able to do so. That is what screening and training is for.

[stsparky]

BartCop (http://www.bartcop.com/) ironically is one of my sources for political news.

If the "cop's" training is suspect - the whole system is to blame. And they should resign en masse to show regret for actions done.

[h2orowe]

OK, after watching the videos... here is what I see. The police are involved with a group of people. Something is going on and for some reason they need to get one guy on the ground. None of the others being arrested make any strange reaction and the officers seem to be on the same page. It makes me think this was probably what the officers really needed to do. Then something happens, one cop looks seriously overwhelmed by the situation, grabs his gun and shoots the guy. His body language and the way he is holding the gun make it look like he doesn't know how to handle the situation and isn't thinking straight. It isn't like he lines up the shot and shoots with the intention to kill this guy. He almost seems hesitant and afraid of what is going on. The other cops even have this "what the hell?" kind of reaction. Obviously, no one is in control of this situation.

So, my final words. Did the cop shoot the man? Yes, that is not up for debate at all. Did he mean to kill or even shoot him? I'd have to say no. Yet, the world is now shouting murderer and placing him on the same level as a serial killer who carefully plans every detail of his kills. This is completely uncalled for and shows the insanity and sensationalism of the news and its audience. Seriously, people have a choice. They can jump to conclusions and make a media field day out of this story or they can treat it like a tragic situation that has ruined many lives and try to figure out what really happened and make the best out of it. It makes me sick to see what the people have chosen.
You can't counsel people as a psychologist or a psychiatrist unless you have your masters. No matter how many books you read, no matter how many episodes of Dr. Phil you've seen, no matter how much advice you give to friends, you can't become an actual counseling psychologist until you have your masters. If this WAS a rookie's mistake then the cops need better training and better standards.

It doesn't matter what the look on the guy's face is or how sorry he is, the fact is they took someone's life. The guy had a four year old daughter; that doesn't even matter. He could have been just some average 20 year old party boy for all I care. The fact is the police made a mistake that took a human life. There should be more of a punishment for this. Especially with the story of him accidentally mistaking his gun for his tazer. Why are we giving people weapons when they can't tell the difference between a lethal weapon and a nonlethal weapon?

As for the riots, they're beyond pointless. I'm sure plenty of these people have been sitting at home, romanticizing violence like this. Wearing Che Guevara and listening to Rage Against the Machine, waiting for some event so that they can show just how "political" they are by bashing in some cars and buildings. The one part of the violence I could understand is vandalizing police property. That's uncalled for and idiotic; at least it links to the situation, though. Breaking the property and buildings of innocents is just going to shift them against your cause.

Some guy gets shot by the police? This lady's car is getting smashed! It makes perfect sense. Violence is rarely justified. It's only understandable against someone who attacks you first.

[archdukezeb]

I'm thinking most of these people shouldn't be given guns at all. It's not like several police officers couldn't deal with one guy with other types of weapons. Last I checked, the average officer here in Los Angeles has mace, a tazer, a baton, handcuffs, and possibly a bulletproof vest or some kind or other concealed weapons or armor.

Are you serious? This isn't the UK or Europe. In America a good portion of the criminals walk around strapped all the time and you're saying police officers should be unarmed?

[OliveButtercup]

But is BART actual police? Doesn't sound like police.



Bay Area Rapid Transit police are real police. They go through the same POST training that every other would-be cop has to go to, then they decide what city or department they want to serve in. They are real law enforcement just like SFPD or whatever. I take BART and my dad was a cop not a BART cop but still I know that BART cops use standard issue Sig Sauer .40 Caliber pistols which are holstered on the right side I believe. The Taser model they use is 3 time lighter than the Sig and is also shorter. It's also holstered towards the center of the belt so, no IMO there was no "oops that's not my Taser that's my Sig!" mistake. BTW 'they' rioted in Oakland last night, set cars on fire and shut down many busy stations yesterday.

[Kannon]

...which are holstered on the right side I believe

Just depends on the handedness of the officer. Being lefthanded, my sidearm is on the left side, my less-than-lethal weapons go on my right side.

EDIT: Unless I'm wearing my crossdraw tac-vest, in which my sidearm is actually on the right side of my chest, just below my pectoral.

[Roxie]

Here's an eyewitness account (http://fem-men-ist.blogspot.com/2009/01/reportback-from-oscar-grant_08.html) of the protest turned riot.
The news about how Oscar Grant was killed by the police weighed heavily on me, and the video footage looped in my head.

after wheeling my records home from my gig, i wash my face and call a taxi. i walk outside to wait, and the sky is buzzing with helicopters. (at 10:33pm, it still is... i can see searchlights crawl over the Tribune building) my head is turned skyward, approximating the helicopters to be somewhere by the lake. maybe by International.

an older black man stops and says
"They protestin' Oscar Grant you know."
i tell him that's where i want to go.
he says
"This ain't nothin new you know, cops killing black people.
They usually say that the man was resisting arrest or sumpn.
This one just got caught."
I nod in agreement.

The taxi pulls up, i recognize the driver from lifts to dj gigs. i greet him and smile, and then look upwards. looking back at him, i say "could you follow the helicopters?"
and we're off.
for a moment i enjoy the fact that i just asked a taxi to follow helicopters.
we talk, he shares his outrage, shakes his head in grief. soon, we are at a police blockade, and i can see the crowd swelling behind them. we pull over, i pay and tip the driver.
he looks me in the eyes.
"Thank you. Be safe."
"You too."

I walk past the blockade without interference.
i approach the crowd
they are chanting

WE

ARE

ALL

OSCAR 
GRANT

i join in.

and i light my white seven day candle
in its glass sleeve.

soon, i see people i know.

there are smiles and hugs,
and also shaking of heads.

There are Korean drummers beating out poongmul rhythms, lots of bicyclists, huge banners indicting killer cops, bullhorns shouting chants of No Justice, No Peace.

i notice that the crowd is mixed, but with a lot of white folks.

some young white kids are in full black with hoodies and bandanas covering their faces.
One is carrying a black flag.

Black Bloc. "Anarchists."

They keep trying to set fire to stuff, and others keep trying to put em out.

i feel anger because i know that the media will racialize the unrest to not look like these suburbanites who use protests as an excuse to smash stuff. Not very radical seeming to me.

We converge on the BART Police station.
A police car is in the middle of the road.
The chants turn into

No Justice No Peace, Fuck The Police!

Some of us look at each other, not chanting.

Then the rocks started being thrown.

And then someone was jumping on the police car.

And then a dumpster was on fire.

And then the dumpster was pushed towards the now rocking police car, as people attempted to turn it over.

I am starting to buzz with adrenaline. I reach for my face towel, awaiting what had to be inevitable. I looked around to see if i could see them-

There they were. Riot cops blocking off one street walking towards the intersection.

I started backing away, and seconds later came the tear gas.

I only smelled a little of it thanks to my towel, and i was far enough for it not to get in my eyes.

I am still holding my candle.
I am the only one holding a candle.
I feel strangely out of place
and also that this is the most important place for me to be
with a lone candle.

even police have been smiling and nodding at me.
somehow, this candle has transformed me from being
a racially profiled target
into the one person that maybe they aren't so worried about.

more kids show up, i am also no longer sure who is genuinely angry, and who is just ready to wreck shit.

trash cans are pulled into the road, cars are now being walked and stomped on.

as a protestor, and not a rioter, i figure its now time to go home.

i text friends letting them know they can come over if things get hectic. I text other friends to let them know that Downtown Oakland is going crazy.

i am stopped by an older black man on the way home. His name is Charles DuBois. We talk about grassroots movements, Obama, and politicization of youth, his amber brown eyes lit by my candle. People walk by, smile and salute us.

When i get home, i am on edge. I can't sit still. The outside sounds of copters, sirens and breaking glass permeate my apartment. I feel stir crazy, unsettled, unfinished. I have to get out again. In my head I imagine friends and family thinking I am crazy. I drink water, and text Mahfam and Kendal to let them know that i am heading out again.
I pick my candle back up and head into the night.

There are police blockades everywhere now.

i try to meet up with folks, but things are looking hectic. My candle still seems to encase me in a cocoon of light that police and others smile at.

a sista around my age stops me, says she recognizes me from earlier on in the protest. she thanks me for walking with a candle, and keeping alive what this should really be about. I thank her as well.

I head down 14th street towards Webster... and that's as far as i get. A couple blocks further down, the crowd looms, and its a riot crowd. i can smell something burning, and Broadway is obscured with smoke that could be the source of the smell, or tear gas. A metal hulk slowly rolls out of a backlit cloud of smoke. it is a paramilitary tank with a mounted water cannon. Is this my neighborhood?

I rest my back against a corner streetlight, and watch, the candle flame flickering slightly under my face. neighbors from my building join me, we stand there and take in the mayhem that our block has become.

there are more people of color now. young kids of various backgrounds are smashing cars, and at least one car is burning. Store windows are getting smashed now too. At first i thought black kids were targeting Korean stores, but then an African hair braiding store got smashed. Later, friends would tell me that they saw the immigrant African family in the store, asking why, why, why? Another friend said that an older Asian man-- on crutches no less-- pleaded with rioting youth not to smash his car up. But they did. Right in front of him. And i saw a middle aged Asian woman running, screaming because her bag had been snatched. I shouted for people to leave her alone, but i had no idea where her assailants were.

This was officially out of control.

Then the crowd started running full tilt up the street towards me. Some people look terrified, but most actually were smiling, looking at each other like "awww shit! hee!" I know you aren't supposed to run in situations like this, but i really didn't feel like getting hosed, gassed or rubber bulleted. Or hanging out with rioters. So i kept close to the buildings, and jogged back towards my house. A thrown bottle broke on the wall near my knee.

I get to my stoop, and see other neighbors. One woman, a mother of two, comes out in her pajamas, asking what is going on. The tank rolls by. she is incredulous. I ask if she knew about Oscar Grant. She didn't. I tell her that an unarmed black man was handcuffed, put on his stomach, and then was shot in the back and killed by a cop. Her eyes widen, her jaw drops in horror. She says with a Philippine trill on her tongue, "No wonder they are so angry!"

The helicopters are everywhere, their buzzing drone bouncing off buildings and rolling down the canyons of streets. searchlights lit up windows and intersections.

Somebody walks by my stoop, looks at us and says what sounds like "The mayor is coming around the corner."

Wha?

It seems that the crowd and riot cops have moved on, so i walk from my stoop to Harrison and 14th, and lean against that lightpost.

Coming up 14th, is indeed Mayor Dellums. He is surrounded by an anxious looking suited entourage and media. He himself looks distraught. He sees me. He looks at my candle. And he simply reaches out and holds my arm for a second, and then he and the entourage keep moving.

It occurs to me that cops are probably not going to tear gas, hose, or rubber bullet the mayor. And now i run into Newman, who is also curious to see where this mayoral train is heading. We fall in step behind the entourage.

The mayor stops on 14th and Madison and starts talking to people and press. Madison is absolutely lit up with rotating police lights. I can't hear what Dellums is saying, but he seems to be unintentionally pissing people off.
"Be patient?? Be patient?? Be patient while they keep killing us??" One sista shouts.

At some point, we are completely encircled by riot cops, but they are a decent distance away from us. Everyone is ignoring them, and focusing on the mayor. A paramilitary tank rolls up. A brotha shouts "Oh look, democracy has arrived!"

The mayor breaks the circle, walking towards the tank. Riot police scurry and reposition themselves. Dellums talks to an officer. Moments later, the tank and riot police dissolve back into the troubled night. Dellums announces on a bullhorn that he has asked them to leave. He is drowned out by people demanding the release of arrested supporters, reform of Oakland police, and streams of curses that basically refer to him as an @%#* Uncle Tom and worse. Whew. Though I must say, I am curious as to what he is going to do and say besides wave some cops away.

So yeah, at this point I think i'm about ready to head back home now. I see friends Bea and Inez, and tell them that I have seen enough for tonight, and that i'm going home. A young sista overhears me, and says with a half joking voice "you should give me your candle then." I turn and look at her.
"Do you really want my candle?" I can see that she has been crying all night.
"Yeah."
"Blessings." I reach out and give it to her, and she looks into my eyes and smiles in a way that warmed my whole soul.

I watch her walk away, see how she now looks transformed, serene and angelic in that candlelight. I understand a bit more why people smiled at me. She and the flickering candle disappear in the crowd.

I walk home, the idea of the candle continuing on in the streets touching me deeply.

When i get inside, I don't feel unsettled anymore.

Just the need to write.


.................................................. .....................

This just in:

Rally for Justice for Oscar Grant
Wednesday, January 14, 2009
4:00pm - 7:00pm
Oakland City Hall
1 Frank H. Ogawa Plaza
Oakland, CA

[Jetsetlemming]

Goddamn I hate stuff like this, because I don't want to judge it without seeing the incident for myself, and I'm not about to willingly watch a man get shot on video.

[Roxie]

Goddamn I hate stuff like this, because I don't want to judge it without seeing the incident for myself, and I'm not about to willingly watch a man get shot on video.
That sounds like a dilemma

[Jetsetlemming]

It is it really is

[Roxie]

Barring your own interpretation that can only be gained from seeing the video, the descriptions of the video are accurate.

If you do decide to watch it, you might feel like throwing up--fyi

[nanashi]

That's the reason I don't want to watch the video. I don't want to watch someone brutally shot and killed. I'll trust what I have heard so far in this thread.

And guh.. Riots. "Hey, lets bring out our anger by destroying the property of innocents and possibly causing someone else who doesn't deserve it harm or death!"

[h2orowe]

It would have been ironic as hell if the rioting killed a black man who was a father when he was trying to escape the unruly masses. Good thing that didn't happen, but the rioters would have had nothing to say.

[Roxie]

NPR Coverage (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99132577)
Talks about the shooting (full audio of the video), the protest, and the riots.

[japanat]

The thing that stands out most in those videos to me is the obvious shock of the cop after he shoots the man. Look at his body language: he looks up at his partner, looks back down, looks up again. His body language says, "Oh, fuck! What did I do?"

He fucked up, quite possibly is a fuckup, but I really don't think he planned to shoot the man. He definitely deserves some jail time for this one, though.

I still gotta wonder why he would think the guy needed to be tasered, what with the other cop on his shoulders/neck. The dude couldn't move, and it seems that tasering him would have given the other cop a major shock, too.

[OliveButtercup]

Just depends on the handedness of the officer. Being lefthanded, my sidearm is on the left side, my less-than-lethal weapons go on my right side.

EDIT: Unless I'm wearing my crossdraw tac-vest, in which my sidearm is actually on the right side of my chest, just below my pectoral.

Maybe. Whichever side the Sig is holstered on, the point is the Taser is clipped in the center or the belt.

[Roxie]

according to all of the things I've read the taser, in this situation, is across the body on the other side.

[PopCulturePooka]

according to all of the things I've read the taser, in this situation, is across the body on the other side.
According to a SWAT cop on another board, some jurisdictions and forces do holster things in nearby locations.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

The San Francisco Chronicle reports (At the end of the article) that BART officers keep their tasers and guns on opposite sides of their belt:
It is unusual for police officers to mistake their handgun for a Taser, but not unprecedented. Tasers are similar to many guns, with a trigger that must be pulled, a safety device that must be switched off, and laser sighting.

Many Bay Area police departments that use Tasers - including BART - force officers to take precautions, such as wearing them on the opposite side of their strong hand and facing backward. This requires officers to reach across their body to retrieve them.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/04/BA0R153LGU.DTL

[RoxFontaine]

http://www.tomjennings.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/rbg1.jpg

[h2orowe]

Sweet, set about a cultural revolution based around "gangsta"ism. Not only that, but throw in weapons and marijuana. Totally sweet Garvyism, man. Race first and all, y'know. United States of Africa. Gotta make sure black people come out on top because, y'know, it's stupid to hold on to the ideal that everyone should strive for equality for everyone equally. It's totally not counterproductive or even stupid to section each other off by race, religion, or gender.

Black nationalism live on, man.

[Roxie]

BART calls meeting on killing, gets flak (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/11/MNT1157HP2.DTL&tsp=1)
Eleven days after the video-recorded shooting of an unarmed man by a BART police officer, the transit agency has still not explained the killing, and the anger and political heat around the case remain intense.

That much was clear when officials from the transit agency invited community leaders and local politicians to a special Sunday meeting - and were lambasted for three hours.

Many of the speakers demanded that BART immediately arrest Johannes Mehserle, the BART police officer who in the early hours of New Year's Day fatally shot Oscar Grant as Grant lay face-down on the platform of the Fruitvale Station in Oakland.

Police had detained Grant, a 22-year-old supermarket worker from Hayward, along with a few others, around 2 a.m. as they investigated a fight aboard a train from San Francisco.

About 100 people attended Sunday's meeting. Some called for an extensive overhaul of the police agency and the way it trains officers. Others warned that inaction is dangerous, referring to riots over the shooting last week in downtown Oakland, where hundreds of car windows and storefronts were smashed.

Some speakers brought their children - African American boys - and said they needed to be able to tell them justice would be done.

The afternoon meeting at the Joseph P. Bort MetroCenter in Oakland was so tense that BART Director Carole Ward Allen - who represents the Fruitvale Station and opened the meeting with an apology to Grant's family - stood up and walked out for 10 minutes at one point after she and her colleagues were taken to task by Oakland City Councilwoman Desley Brooks.

Allen later explained, "I was aware that I might say the wrong thing."

Fellow Director Lynette Sweet, meanwhile, apologized moments after joking that the meeting was keeping people from the National Football League playoffs.

"I don't think you guys realize what kind of fire you're playing with," said Dion Evans, pastor at Chosen Vessels Christian Church in Alameda, addressing a BART panel that included General Manager Dorothy Dugger and Police Chief Gary Gee.
Need for pressure

Many of the speakers - elected officials, clergy, labor representatives, activists - said they felt the need to apply constant political pressure in the investigation. They noted that police officers are rarely charged in criminal court and said they fear Grant's black skin color had something to do with what happened to him on the platform.

"It's not happening to other folk," said Amos Brown, the president of the San Francisco chapter of the NAACP, pointing at his own face to make his point.

Brown, a pastor at Third Baptist Church in San Francisco and a former city supervisor, asked BART to adopt a resolution that would "confess the sins of America" and acknowledge the existence of racism.

BART appears to be feeling the pressure: Dugger and Gee said they plan to wrap up their criminal investigation by the end of this week. And the agency has scheduled yet another special meeting for today at 1:30 p.m. at the Kaiser Center in Oakland. The board is scheduled to appoint a committee to figure out ways to avoid such shootings in the future.

Also today, the board today will meet behind closed doors to discuss a $25 million claim filed last week by Grant's family members, who intend to sue.

Asked after the meeting about the fury the case has generated, BART Director Bob Franklin said, "I think it's appropriate."

Community leaders asked Gee several times why Mehserle had not been arrested. Some speakers said they fear he might go on the run.

If that happens, Evans said, "there's going to be hell in the streets."

Joseph Anderson, a Berkeley activist, said, "and I'll be there."
Legal restraints

The chief said in an interview after the meeting that the law prevented BART from arresting Mehserle during an ongoing investigation into an officer-involved shooting, no matter what the facts.

"We have to operate within the parameters of the criminal justice system," Gee said. "Officers fire their guns - sometimes negligently, sometimes accidentally, sometimes intentionally - and it's up to the district attorney to weigh the totality of the evidence."

BART, the Oakland Police Department and Alameda County prosecutors are investigating the shooting. On Thursday, District Attorney Tom Orloff said his office would make a decision on possible charges in two weeks.

In addition, state Attorney General Jerry Brown said Saturday that he is sending an observer to the district attorney's office to encourage prompt action. And the FBI is keeping an eye on the case as well, said spokesman Joseph Schadler, as is standard in cases that may involve civil rights.

Mehserle, 27, quit his job Wednesday, the day he was scheduled to be questioned by BART investigators, who ordered him to answer or face disciplinary action. Exercising his right to remain silent, he has declined to speak to criminal investigators as well. Neither Mehserle nor his lawyers have issued any public statements.

More protests over Grant's shooting are planned for this week.

[Roxie]

Crazy World Tribute to Oscar Grant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwPg6lmHIlo)
The State of the World in turmoil, unrest and damn near anarchy, and the Peoples passion is at an all time high! Green Lantern has Produced Yet Another Banger!!! And Uncle Murda Has Something He has to say and damn it....It need to be said!!! Avery Storm Showing his Talent Starting to Shine!!!

We are Tired of Black Men being gunned down by police, We dont need anybody else shooting us...shit we are trying to stop from shooting each other....Protect & Serve does not mean Eradicate Buddy!!!
And that cop in particular needs to go to jail for murder....there is no justification.....it doesn't mater what he "said" while he was HANDCUFFED laying on the floor....You were in no danger Fuck Face.....see there goes that passion......R.I.P. Oscar Grant

contains footage of the shooting, fyi.

[Jetsetlemming]

Ok, when did race come into play for this? From the first page at least, it was a cop fucked up badly, not a cop purposely shot a nigga. :boggled: The OP article doesn't even mention color.

[puzzo]

Since when does race have to be a factor for people to play the card? I've never heard of a black man intentionally shooting a white man and it being called a hate crime, but the other way around? Woah nelly.:duh:

[Kannon]

I wanted to say something on page 1 regarding being glad it hadn't turned in to a race thing, but I knew it would. I'm not saying it isn't, but it would have been nice to focus on the officer's inability to do his job and the repercussions to come from this incident, not oh-so eloquent songs saying "FUCK THE POLICE" when the MAJORITY of law enforcement individuals are willing to put their life on the line for ANYONE in harms way, regardless of the race of the victim or suspect.

[Trump]

To those of you afraid to watch the video... it is not gruesome, you don't really see anything. The reason people are getting "sick" is because of the implications more than the raw footage. You see some fuzzy goings on of what looks like a police scuffle, then what can pass for a gun shot towards someone on the ground, then the person/blob on the ground is still. No blood, no guts, no gore, no death spawms, nothing like that.

[archdukezeb]

It's just a fact, Cops and Black people go back like Capulets and Montagues. Cops don't like black people black people don't like cops.

Did anyone see this:
http://kdka.com/national/Robert.Tolan.shot.2.902245.html
No Answers: Texas Cop Shoots Man In Own Driveway
BELLAIRE, Texas (CBS) ―

A 23-year-old man was shot on New Year's Eve by a police officer in the driveway of his own Bellaire, Texas home while his parents looked on.

Robert "Robbie" Tolan and his cousin had just returned home from a nearby restaurant on December 31 at about 2 a.m., according to CBS affiliate KHOU. An officer, Sgt. Jeff Cotton, pulled into the driveway behind them.

Family members said the victim and his cousin were ordered to the ground. They reportedly complied to the officer's order. But when Tolan's mother and father came outside to question what was happening, the situation got a little heated.

According to Tolan's family, one of the officers shoved Tolan's mother against a wall.

"He told them not to shove his mother," said David Berg, attorney for the Tolan family.

Tolan reportedly "leaned" up and questioned the officer about what was going on.

At that point, Sgt. Cotton opened fire.

At a Bellaire City Council meeting on Monday, City Manager Bernie Satterwhite declined to discuss allegations that the incident might have been motivated by racial profiling. Family members had difficulty believing a shooting at the home of the only black family on their Bellaire block was completely random, Berg said told the Houston Chronicle.

Tolan was shot in the chest. He was taken to Houston's Ben Taub General Hospital. His family is focused on his recovery. The .45-caliber bullet from Cotton's gun punctured his lung before lodging in his liver, Berg said.

"The doctors say that he'll likely have to live with the bullet in his liver for the rest of his life," he said.

Speculation aside, investigators and the family are trying to figure out why the officer stopped the men in the first place.

"The vehicle turned out not to be stolen. Why they thought it was stolen and how they got a stolen report is something that is not clear yet. All that will be determined in the investigation," said Holloway.

Tolan is the son of former Major League baseball player, Bobby Tolan. His father witnessed the shooting, and said he's very upset.

"The oddest thing to me is why they didn't check his license plate. If the car was stolen, there should be a report," said Mike Morris, Tolan's Uncle. "This is a classic case of racial profiling I think. Robby's a good kid. He never got into any trouble."

"The Bellaire police came here for no reason, and an officer shot a good man in cold blood," said Berg. "There is no doubt in my mind that if these had been white kids, this would not have happened."

Cotton, a 10-year veteran on the force, is white. He has been placed on Administrative Leave while the incident is being investigated.

Almost seems a little more fucked up than the first one and the racial profiling is a little more easily evident.

[Kannon]

It's just a fact, Cops and Black people go back like Capulets and Montagues. Cops don't like black people black people don't like cops.

Stupid racists hate blacks. It's just unfortunate that stupid racists know that being a law enforcement officer gives them the highest probability to murder and get away with it. Don't generalize; you become just as stupid as the racists.

[Roxie]

Ok, when did race come into play for this?
Since before you were born.
If you (the general you), for one second, ever thought that it would not be brought up, you were totally living in a dream world.

[Kannon]

Unfortunately I live in Lincoln, Nebraska, the equivilant of a dream world when it comes to racism. Well, good for me I guess. I only have to make the short trip to Omaha to experience it, but there is a reason I love where I live. The majority of people here don't have their heads shoved so far up their own asses they wear themselves as hats.

[h2orowe]

Since before you were born.
If you (the general you), for one second, ever thought that it would not be brought up, you were totally living in a dream world.
Of course it would be brought up but the stuff RoxFontaine posted is just stupid. This shouldn't have to be about black power vs. white power. It's just general human rights. Any form of nationalism or pride, other than mild pride in your heritage along the lines of "Cool, my family comes from Africa/Europe/ETC." is more or less unneeded and retarded in these situations (And, frankly, just in every situation.) I can't stand when people try and separate these issues based on race.

Sure, cops racial profile blacks. However, in America, there is also similar problems for people of different races or similar problems for people with different issues. Like the people who beat up Muslims for automatically throwing them in the category of terrorist. Or those kids who killed the gay student at their school. Or other things that are similar to that.

It just really annoys me when people put it as ONE GROUP vs. ONE GROUP. It should be THE PEOPLE vs. INJUSTICE. It's not about being a brotha or a sista or a black or white guy, it's about being someone who's fed up with others being brought down. I hate being grouped as just a white kid because I've written for my old school's newspaper, donated to charity, been active in clubs, and written multiple papers to spread awareness about causes against injustice. It shouldn't be about a black man being shot on New Years Day, it should be about an innocent man. The fact that he's black or not should really be irrelevant because so what if he was black, had he been Asian or White or Hispanic or whatever else have you, we should all feel just as outraged.

[Roxie]

fyi: I'm posting articles/blog posts I'm getting from my google alerts. All things that seem interesting and/or informative, I'm posting it.

Asians Demand Justice for Oscar Grant
(http://www.racewire.org/archives/2009/01/asians_demand_justice_for_osca.html)
The Asian American Community Demands Justice for Oscar Grant
By Ryan Takemiya
Monday, January 12, 2009

In light of the New Years Day murder of Oscar Grant it has become clear that we in the Asian American community can no longer pretend that we have nothing in common with the Black community. Our cultures may be different, our struggles may be different, and our places in the racial hierarchy of this country may be different, but one thing is clear: In the mind of a cop, we are all criminals. Whether we are Black, Asian, or Latino…whether we are men or women…whether we are young or old…If you are a person of color in these United States of America, then you can be shot at any moment. And it’s time that the Asian American community stand with the Black and Latino communities to show that while we may not understand what it was like to be enslaved in America, or to experience genocide in America, we do know what it’s like to have our innocent sons, daughters, mothers, and fathers murdered and shot down by police like animals, and we will not allow it to happen in any community.

As a member of the Asian American community I stand with Oscar Grant and his family. I stand with the Black community of Oakland and Black people all over the country who experience police brutality every day. I do not claim to know what they go through, but here I stand, refusing to allow it, refusing to accept it.

We, the Asian American community, demand the disarming of all Police, demand more citizen oversight of BART cops, demand the regulation of firearms, demand more money and resources be put into the poor neighborhoods of Oakland. We demand the arrest of Officer Mehserle, demand that he be charged with murder, demand that Ron Dellums apologize for his lack of leadership, and demand that he make up for it in deeds, not words.

In addition, we demand that BART Police Chief Gary Gee resign from his position out of respect to the family of Oscar Grant. To allow something like this to happen under his watch and to be police chief during a massive cover-up of the murder should be a shame that he carries for the rest of his life. As a fellow Asian American, I am ashamed for his participation, and disgusted that he has not already stepped down amidst the controversy. The Asian American community should call for his resignation, effective immediately. We cannot allow one of our own to contribute to the power structure that inflicts violence on communities of color.

We also realize that cooperation with and support of other people of color will help lead to self-reliance and independence from the system, and we extend a hand of trust and communion. Our communities have had a troubled past together, but let this be the experience that binds us together in solidarity.

We stand and walk with the Black community in the memory of our family members who have been murdered by the police...In the memory of our brother Michael Cho, our brother Chonburi Xiong, our mother Cau Thi Bich Tran, our father Kuan Chung Kao, and most especially our young son Yong Xin Huang. May they all rest with Oscar Grant in eternal peace.

[archdukezeb]

post.
I'm not saying this is Blacks vs. Whites or anything like that but this issue isn't as simple justice vs. injustice. The police are supposedly are the justice and you're forced to pay them to be that justice yet they pull this kind of shit everyday. Have you ever been pulled over for absolutely no reason spread on the ground with a gun drawn on you? I have.

I'm not saying its as simple as all police are a bunch of crooked assholes hell bent on killing blacks, I mean it's just like the soldiers being sent to Iraq trying to police a population that hates their guts. In Iraq it's the situation that's fucked up not specifically the army and here our society is fucked up not specifically just the police. Blacks represent 12.3% of the US population but they represent 43.7% of the prison population. I forgot who said this quote but "this didn't happen by no goddamn accident."

[darighaz]

This sounds racist but i cant help it.

All you did there is imply that most almost half of black people are criminals.

Most people are in prison because they belong to be there. Your damn right it didn't happen by accident.

Maybe instead of bitching about racial profiling you should stop doing whatever the fuck it was illegal that you were doing.


It doesn't fucking matter if more white people get off on shit than black people. The fact of the matter is, YOU WERE DOING SOMETHING ILLEGAL YOU STUPID FUCK. DONT BITCH ABOUT INEQUALITY IN HOW YOU"RE TREATED FOR BEING A STUPID ASS. JUST STOP BEING A STUPID ASS.

Now if someone is put in there who literally did NOTHING wrong, OK, that sucks, and i know it does happen in many places. But to claim that its the WHOLE SYSTEM, no.

When ganstas stop acting like gangstas, they'll stop getting arrested.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

When ganstas stop acting like gangstas, they'll stop getting arrested.
The fallacy in your argument however is that you assume that anyone who is in prison actually deserved the sentence they got. While they may have been doing something illegal, that doesn't mean that the punishment they got wasn't too harsh for what they did. For example, the War on Drugs.

[archdukezeb]

The fallacy in your argument however is that you assume that anyone who is in prison actually deserved the sentence they got. While they may have been doing something illegal, that doesn't mean that the punishment they got wasn't too harsh for what they did. For example, the War on Drugs.

Or specifically you could cite the disparity in sentencing between cocaine and crack cocaine. They're different forms of the same thing but the punishments for crack are 100 times more severe than for regular cocaine. Why is this? Because rich people do regular cocaine poor blacks do crack cocaine.

To Darighaz:
And "it's easy to say oh if people weren't criminals they wouldn't go to jail!" You are simply a product of the society and environment you live in. Do you think that black people inherently have something in their genetics that gives them a predisposition to crime? How do you think blacks can go from segregation as little as 50 years ago to having the same ability to be equal members of society as whites? "This isn't some oh well slavery happened like 150 years ago I have nothing to do with that," kind of thing. It's a continual process it took another after that 100 years to strike down segregation and Jim Crowe laws but that doesn't mean everything is even close to fair and equal today.

I guess since you only know your own upbringing and can't understand how everyone didn't get the same chances you had it's hard for you to understand why it wasn't as easy for some people as it was for you.

[h2orowe]

I'm not saying this is Blacks vs. Whites or anything like that but this issue isn't as simple justice vs. injustice. The police are supposedly are the justice and you're forced to pay them to be that justice yet they pull this kind of shit everyday. Have you ever been pulled over for absolutely no reason spread on the ground with a gun drawn on you? I have.

I'm not saying its as simple as all police are a bunch of crooked assholes hell bent on killing blacks, I mean it's just like the soldiers being sent to Iraq trying to police a population that hates their guts. In Iraq it's the situation that's fucked up not specifically the army and here our society is fucked up not specifically just the police. Blacks represent 12.3% of the US population but they represent 43.7% of the prison population. I forgot who said this quote but "this didn't happen by no goddamn accident."
It is as simple as justice vs. injustice because the way these cops act is unjust. I'm not denying the fact that some officers use racial profiling, all I'm saying is instead of dividing ourselves into blacks helping blacks or whites helping whites, we should focus on a larger goal that will help everyone.

The goal shouldn't be to attack others or their property in the name of "justice" or black nationalism. The goal should be to have cops like these held responsible for their actions. Sometimes people kill people on accident but are still sentenced to jail time. Cops should be no exception.

[Roxie]

BACK ON TOPIC!

BART Refers Oscar Grant Case to District Attorney, Protests Continue (http://johnnycalifornia.com/?p=2773)
Today, the BART Directors and BART Police Chief announce that their investigation into the Oscar Grant shooting is finished. The protests continue as the case goes to the District Attorney.

KGO-TV’s Liveblog reports:
BART has completed its internal investigation and sent its findings to the Alameda County district attorney.

BART officials will not say what happened or what conclusion the investigation reached.

Seven officers present at the Fruitvale station at the time of the shooting were interviewed. Former BART Officer Johannes Mesherle was interviewed during the investigation but would not say anything and invoked his Fifth Amendment rights. BART investigators interviewed 21 people altogether.

Representatives from the Oakland Police Department, as well as BART General Manager Dorothy Dugger and BART Police Chief Gary Gee are present at the press conference.

“Now it is the DA’s responsibility to decide whether to file charges in this case,” Dugger said.

Indybay announced an Oscar Grant rally at 5pm today (January 12) at the San Francisco Civic Center. UPDATE 6pm: According to SFist , turnout for this protest is “maybe a couple hundred folks, 2 choppers, no braids, one rasta hat so far.” SF ain’t Oakland, but we know that.

Despite this seemingly paltry protest turnout, artists added this piece to the 24th and Mission Street Bart Station:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b58/Roxie21/bart-cops-kill.jpg

This is hanging from apartment on Valencia and 22nd:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b58/Roxie21/protest_bedsheet.jpg

Then there’s this, also being distributed by Indybay:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b58/Roxie21/wantedmesherle1.jpg

And KGO-7 News in San Francisco Reports:

[BART Riders] found flyers that look like something BART might issue, until you read the text.

The anonymous author compares BART Police to a violent gang saying, “All members of this gang, which refers to itself as the “BART Police” are known to carry firearms.” It goes on to say, “This vigilante group considers itself above the law.”

Here’s a copy of the flyer:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b58/Roxie21/bart-protest-flyer.jpg

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

While I like that people are able to get away with speaking out against the BART police with this whole thing, to actually add to the discussion, I don't think I'd call this a case of first degree murder. Second degree murder is what I'd call this, from what I know of the circumstances. At the very least it's manslaughter which is probably what the prosecution will go for if this goes to trial.

[darighaz]

@ last 2 posts directed at me.

Regardless of any sentencing.

If you weren't doing something illegal. You wouldn't be in jail.

How hard is it to NOT do drugs (re: war on drugs)? Seriously what the hell kinda defense is "You were brung up not to do illegal shit, so you just dont understand".

Theres nothing genetic that makes people do anything, so stop doing dumb shit.

[PopCulturePooka]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b58/Roxie21/bart-cops-kill.jpg


Ohhh artists did this?

Good otherwise I would have thought it's vandalism taht helps no one in this case.

[darighaz]

Its vandalism either way.

I hope you were being sarcastic >_>

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

@ last 2 posts directed at me.

Regardless of any sentencing.

If you weren't doing something illegal. You wouldn't be in jail.

How hard is it to NOT do drugs (re: war on drugs)? Seriously what the hell kinda defense is "You were brung up not to do illegal shit, so you just dont understand".

Theres nothing genetic that makes people do anything, so stop doing dumb shit.
Because while the US Constitution protects against "cruel and unusual punishment" it doesn't protect people against egregious sentences. Saying "If you weren't doing something illegal..." is a weak argument because there are plenty of people serving out their sentences in prison because they were given sentences that were far harsher than they should have been, and the War on Drugs is a fantastic example because the punishment varies from case to case and is at the discretion of the district attorney to prosecute the alleged criminal. Racism also comes into this because a prosecutor could easily decide to try for a particularly harsh prison sentence on someone who is black or latino compared to someone who is white.

Saying "regardless of any sentencing" doesn't work because the sentencing is what I was arguing against because it also involves how arbitrary drug laws can be and how they are applied. If you want to stick by the argument "You wouldn't be in jail if you weren't doing anything illegal" you have every right to do so but it's weak and ignores other factors for the sake of a more simplified ethical viewpoint.

[darighaz]

I only made the war on drugs refernce so as not to imply that all black people were in jail for doing drugs. Sentencing is definatly a bitch, but the fact remains they WERE breaking the law. By complaining that you were punished more for being dumb than some other guy wasm then trying to make statements about prison population is dancing the real issue. People were doing stupid shit. Had they not been doing stupid shit it would have been a problem.

How to erase the black prison disparity, because it does exist.

Have black people stop commiting crimes.

(this works for white people too ZOMG!)

[Roxie]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b58/Roxie21/citytalk.jpg

[RoxFontaine]

Of course it would be brought up but the stuff RoxFontaine posted is just stupid. This shouldn't have to be about black power vs. white power.

RoxFontaine didn't say a single word.
Since he didn't say a single word he couldn't POSSIBLY have said anything about "black power vs. white power".

[PopCulturePooka]

Its vandalism either way.

I hope you were being sarcastic >_>
I was.

I don't know if the actualt author of roxies posted article was being sarcastic when he/she said that artists did it.

It's ridiculous graffiti.

Chances are done by dumb teen kids who dont care for the actual issue at hand as much as they wanna cause ruckus.

[h2orowe]

RoxFontaine didn't say a single word.
Since he didn't say a single word he couldn't POSSIBLY have said anything about "black power vs. white power".
I'm sorry. The image he posted.

[RoxFontaine]

I don't see the words white, versus or power anywhere in the image.

[h2orowe]

I'm sorry, but I thought that's kind of what was implied by Black Nationalism/Reading about Garvy. Not white power versus black power, but more or less separating each other by race.

[Jetsetlemming]

Since before you were born.
If you (the general you), for one second, ever thought that it would not be brought up, you were totally living in a dream world.
I didn't because race wasn't mentioned in the OP, which makes me, and I'd think most people, assume that means the cop and victim were the same color, whichever color that might be. It's not exactly a monumentally rare chance.
While I like that people are able to get away with speaking out against the BART police with this whole thing, to actually add to the discussion, I don't think I'd call this a case of first degree murder. Second degree murder is what I'd call this, from what I know of the circumstances. At the very least it's manslaughter which is probably what the prosecution will go for if this goes to trial.
Second degree murder is when you intentionally kill someone, knowing who they are, but didn't plan on the act ahead of time. By Japanat's description, this cop could get as light as involuntary manslaughter, with that whole "confusing gun with tazer" stuff.
I don't see the words white, versus or power anywhere in the image.
I see words referencing gun violence, illegal drugs, and racial discrimination against women, which are all pretty fucking stupid things to associate yourself with. If you can't comprehend why Joey and others would react negatively to that image's message, you're, well, pretty fucking stupid.
@ last 2 posts directed at me.

Regardless of any sentencing.

If you weren't doing something illegal. You wouldn't be in jail.

How hard is it to NOT do drugs (re: war on drugs)? Seriously what the hell kinda defense is "You were brung up not to do illegal shit, so you just dont understand".

Theres nothing genetic that makes people do anything, so stop doing dumb shit.
There's a federal law that makes any law, regulation, or rule from anywhere in the world enforceable in the United States. Not doing anything illegal is harder than you'd think.

[archdukezeb]

How to erase the black prison disparity, because it does exist.

Have black people stop commiting crimes.

(this works for white people too ZOMG!)

Best quote of this thread and best quote I've seen in awhile. I commend you. ZOMG! indeed. Sigged.

[RoxFontaine]

I see words referencing gun violence, illegal drugs, and racial discrimination against women, which are all pretty fucking stupid things to associate yourself with. If you can't comprehend why Joey and others would react negatively to that image's message, you're, well, pretty fucking stupid.

You don't get to determine what is or is not OK for me to associate myself with. As for the tail end of your comment:

..........................

[Jetsetlemming]

Do you seriously think you need to give people permission before they can judge your words and actions? Do you seriously think they DON'T if you don't?

[RoxFontaine]

I'm having trouble understanding what some of you are reading. Is there something special that shows up on your screen when I post?

You have "permission" to say whatever you want. I don't recall mentioning you needed my permission to do anything. The FACT still remains:

You don't get to determine what is or is not OK for me to associate myself with.

It's all good though. I'm well aware of the program on OP9.

[geesehoward4life]

How to erase the black prison disparity, because it does exist.

Have black people stop commiting crimes.

(this works for white people too ZOMG!)

Best quote of this thread and best quote I've seen in awhile. I commend you. ZOMG! indeed. Sigged.

Moderator Roxie, please provide me with a bit of leeway here because I actually would need for the above quotes to be answered by the two people who posted them, so I would like... For you to give me some time to be able to find out how exactly Darighaz and Archdukezeb would accomplish their best quote of the thread and best quote seen in awhile. The reason why I have said any of this is because I noted earlier that you posted back to topic, but upon looking over everything that has been said in this thread I find nothing to be off-topic.

All aspects brought up so far actually tie directly into the topic and are either symptoms that allow the situation to persist or show that this is not an isolated incident or that the situation has occurred due to perceptions about Blacks, particularly Black males and men, being prone to violent criminal behavior. So I needed to say this first before I could even begin to talk about this thread, this situation or anything else. I apologize in advance if this comes off as bullshit or wtf-ish, but from the limited times that I have honestly talked about anything on here my post are generally long and I am a slow-typer, but they actually get to the heart of the topic and generally leave very little room for senseless flaming in response to them. I decided to type this because I don't want to respond to this and then the thread ends up closed.

I would like for Darighaz and Archdukezeb to explain how THEY WILL MAKE IT so that Blacks will not commit more crimes and WHY IS IT that Blacks commit more crimes in the first place. It is in these two answers or lack of answers that everyone will see whether or not Darighaz and Archdukezeb have really come up with the best idea to solve the problems that clearly cause the creation of this thread. If this comes off as sarcasm I am sorry and I apologize in advance BECAUSE IT IS NOT SARCASM. I need to see what happens when both of you are forced to have to try to write out and talk about implementing what it is that you say.

[darighaz]

People teach their kids to stop stealing?

Not real sure how you need to outright try and accomplish Not breaking the law.

I've somehow managed to squeak by for 23 years without breaking any law requiring court action, and people i know of every race have managed the same. So why is it so damn hard for people to NOT break laws? I dont believe theres any genetic disparity out there that makes people do dumb shit. Hell most people EVERYWHERE do dumb shit.

The statement was a reflection that rather than people bitching about how they're treated unfairly when caught, that maybe they should focus more of their efforts on not breaking the law in the first place.

Instead of mass outrage every time someone gets an unfair sentence, why not the mass outrage that he committed whatever crime it was in the first place. You obviously cant institutionalize the abolishment of crime, but you can work with your family/community(nation/race/street whatever)/friends to maybe try and make people SUCK A LITTLE LESS. It is the goal of family and community to leave the next generation a better or at least no worse place than they were given themselves at some point.

@ why is it blacks commit more crimes in the first place. Who knows? Probably has to do with where they've grown up, what the family income is like, and the fact that rap/hip hop makes celebrity out of being a completly horrible person, maybe who their friends are? Like joey, i dont see why any of this discussion should have been about race in the first place. By making it about race, you perpetuate the issue. By perpetuating it, you create highten tension around it and make it an issue for more people. Maybe if more people shut the fuck up about it, then people would start forgetting about it. When i read the article i didn't even read it as an issue of race. It was an issue of a dude getting shot by a cop.

[geesehoward4life]

People teach their kids to stop stealing?

Not real sure how you need to outright try and accomplish Not breaking the law.

I've somehow managed to squeak by for 23 years without breaking any law requiring court action, and people i know of every race have managed the same. So why is it so damn hard for people to NOT break laws? I dont believe theres any genetic disparity out there that makes people do dumb shit. Hell most people EVERYWHERE do dumb shit.

The statement was a reflection that rather than people bitching about how they're treated unfairly when caught, that maybe they should focus more of their efforts on not breaking the law in the first place.

Instead of mass outrage every time someone gets an unfair sentence, why not the mass outrage that he committed whatever crime it was in the first place. You obviously cant institutionalize the abolishment of crime, but you can work with your family/community(nation/race/street whatever)/friends to maybe try and make people SUCK A LITTLE LESS. It is the goal of family and community to leave the next generation a better or at least no worse place than they were given themselves at some point.

So according to the statement above it has to do with simple use of common sense. I definitely see that, but I see no definitive plans, policies or ideas anywhere except for the statement of "don't steal and don't break the law". Is it that Blacks have no ability to follow such a simplistic statement or are their other factors that go into the failure to employ something that is such a basic thing? And I ask that because as I said, I see nothing that actually says on your part "Blacks should do or institute policy A, B, C or D", but I do see; Simply stop committing crime and you will not have a problem. Have Blacks in prior generations been better at NOT committing crimes or has it always been this way and current generations are simply continuing to follow in the footsteps of previous generations?

And is complaining about unfair punishment for crimes even actually warranted? The reason why I ask you this is because we supposedly live in a society of second chances, but if crimes are disproportionately punished then one never gets the opportunity to learn from their mistakes. To me, one would believe that Blacks constantly suffering from a higher prison population due to either committing more crime OR from disparaging application of punishment... why then hasn't this caused what should be a natural response of BETTER Black American discipline in what boils down to what you have said "Don't commit more crime and you won't have to worry about complaining about punishment." ONE SHOULD SPARK THE OTHER, solely out of survival since the affected group knows that they do not enjoy the American social policy of being a second chance society AND they are also punished at a higher rate, supposedly, than the majority population themselves.

So then... Why hasn't your common sense approach even kicked in when set against the backdrop of what I just said. Clearly if it was applied then this thread and others like it would not be created, so why hasn't this taken place within the Black American community, to the best of your knowledge?

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

@ darighaz What? There should absolutely be outrage whenever someone gets an unfair sentence for a crime they committed. Why should people more outraged at the 22 year old who was found with some weed and not the fact that he got a year and a half in prison (In Missouri for example he'd get 7 years) and a $100,000 fine? Considering that marijuana is less harmful than alcohol I think people should more outraged that it's against the law at all.

Living a crime-free life is easy when A) You've done it and B) You haven't lived with the pressure to do otherwise. Plenty of people in low income neighborhoods with low-funded education, among other things, are going to face a lot more pressure to do illegal things when most of the people they're growing up with are doing the same. You even mention this in passing in your post yet you seem to ignore this just so you can have your simple "Don't do the crime" argument.

It was an issue of a dude getting shot by a cop.
On the other hand, someone else posted an article where the case of police brutality was blatantly because of the victim's race.

[darighaz]

So according to the statement above it has to do with simple use of common sense. I definitely see that, but I see no definitive plans, policies or ideas anywhere except for the statement of "don't steal and don't break the law". Is it that Blacks have no ability to follow such a simplistic statement or are their other factors that go into the failure to employ something that is such a basic thing? And I ask that because as I said, I see nothing that actually says on your part "Blacks should do or institute policy A, B, C or D", but I do see; Simply stop committing crime and you will not have a problem. Have Blacks in prior generations been better at NOT committing crimes or has it always been this way and current generations are simply continuing to follow in the footsteps of previous generations?

And is complaining about unfair punishment for crimes even actually warranted? The reason why I ask you this is because we supposedly live in a society of second chances, but if crimes are disproportionately punished then one never gets the opportunity to learn from their mistakes. To me, one would believe that Blacks constantly suffering from a higher prison population due to either committing more crime OR from disparaging application of punishment... why then hasn't this caused what should be a natural response of BETTER Black American discipline in what boils down to what you have said "Don't commit more crime and you won't have to worry about complaining about punishment." ONE SHOULD SPARK THE OTHER, solely out of survival since the affected group knows that they do not enjoy the American social policy of being a second chance society AND they are also punished at a higher rate, supposedly, than the majority population themselves.

So then... Why hasn't your common sense approach even kicked in when set against the backdrop of what I just said. Clearly if it was applied then this thread and others like it would not be created, so why hasn't this taken place within the Black American community, to the best of your knowledge?


I speicifically said, that thanks to the fact that everyones reasons for commiting any crime are different, there is no way you can institutionalize crime reduction.

The solution is have your family and community educate people right from the beginning.

Race has almost nothing to do with the discussion. Replace every instance of black in your post, with white, or asian, or hispanic, and it is exactly the same argument, and same validity.

My statement about black people stop commiting crimes, was worded specifically to imply that the race was irrelevent, and if you want less of any X in jail. then X should commit less crimes.

I ask you this, Why do you think ANYONE commits crimes? My answer is a trillion different reasons, and all you can do is try and make people, better people, and the problem will fade away. The degredation of society cannot be fixed by laws, mandates, or programs.

[darighaz]

@ darighaz What? There should absolutely be outrage whenever someone gets an unfair sentence for a crime they committed. Why should people more outraged at the 22 year old who was found with some weed and not the fact that he got a year and a half in prison (In Missouri for example he'd get 7 years) and a $100,000 fine? Considering that marijuana is less harmful than alcohol I think people should more outraged that it's against the law at all.

Living a crime-free life is easy when A) You've done it and B) You haven't lived with the pressure to do otherwise. Plenty of people in low income neighborhoods with low-funded education, among other things, are going to face a lot more pressure to do illegal things when most of the people they're growing up with are doing the same. You even mention this in passing in your post yet you seem to ignore this just so you can have your simple "Don't do the crime" argument.


On the other hand, someone else posted an article where the case of police brutality was blatantly because of the victim's race.

@first part = Unfair sentencing is an issue, i never said it wasnt. What i did say was that maybe if more people called the sentenced a dumbass too, rather than crying how unfair it is ( as in, Bitch about BOTH things), then we'd be better off, then just going ZOMG RACE, its ok dude you're only in prison because of your race, you've done nothing wrong, ZOMG UNFAIR!!!!!!1

We need to decry BOTH sides of the case there.

@ second part - Yes, you're exactly right there, and i fail to see why anyones race is relevent with the real problem is the society you were raised in. If you wanna fight more for more funding for black schools, because black schools basically blow in lots of places (i lived near detroit. Its a hole), Hell yea lets do that.

But thats not what seemed to happen here. I read (in thread+ in city/news) a whole lot of black power, fuck whitey, fuck the cops. Maybe try and get more black people to be cops. Then you wouldn't have the issue. And if black people are being unfairly not-taken by the police force, then theres a different issue. But the vitirol and hate will stop when both sides learn to shut the fuck up, and try and fix things, not cry UNFAIR like a child in kindergarden.

[geesehoward4life]

I speicifically said, that thanks to the fact that everyones reasons for commiting any crime are different, there is no way you can institutionalize crime reduction.

The solution is have your family and community educate people right from the beginning.

Race has almost nothing to do with the discussion. Replace every instance of black in your post, with white, or asian, or hispanic, and it is exactly the same argument, and same validity.

My statement about black people stop commiting crimes, was worded specifically to imply that the race was irrelevent, and if you want less of any X in jail. then X should commit less crimes.

I ask you this, Why do you think ANYONE commits crimes? My answer is a trillion different reasons, and all you can do is try and make people, better people, and the problem will fade away. The degredation of society cannot be fixed by laws, mandates, or programs.

I asked you specifically about what can Black people do to implement your common sense idea, I am unconcerned about what anyone else is doing wherever they are at. I asked you SPECIFICALLY and CLEARLY in my response "How can Black people implement what you say in your common sense statement and why hasn't it been done?"

I am well aware that YOU WOULD LIKE to make it non-specific, but we are talking about a specific and if we WEREN'T or aren't, I AM. And my response was worded that way, so my question still stands to you "How do Black people implement your common sense strategy to stop senseless killings whether by police or by other Blacks?" so I will now EXTEND the question further with that fact as well. Now it is not just tied to the fact that the Black man in question who was handcuffed and clearly unable to do anything was a victim of police brutality or ineptitude, but it also tackles the bizarre statistics of how high Black on Black crime is in America and what can YOU, with your Common Sense Strategy DO, to solve this issue? I need specifics and I already include one of yours as;

The solution is have your family and community educate people right from the beginning.

So this is also another common sense statement AND A GOOD ONE, but I need more than this please. And I just read your response to Fermented Yeast and these too are good points!

[darighaz]

Here i'll restate it so that you can read it through your race blinders.

Black people I speicifically said, that thanks to the fact that black people's reasons for commiting any crime are different, there is no way you can institutionalize crime reduction for black people. Black people.

There did i make it enough of a race specific issue for you now? Because according to your seeming train of though, only black people have issues, and black people also dont have common sense. Also since black people have all these specific problems (no one else gets arrested ever), and black people are fundamentally different from everyone else, black people cant use the same solutions that every other living being can. because they're not black. We need some specific solutions for black people, so that black people dont have to take responsibility for their actions. black people. We need to just tell them what to do, so that they dont have to think for themself. black people are clearly incapable of any rational thought, and dont know what is and isn't against the law.


Have i said black people enough times in my response for you to be satisfied yet?

Black people are not special. They can do the same shit as every other person in the country who got shit on by society.

[MNJetter]

How to erase the black prison disparity, because it does exist.

Have black people stop commiting crimes.

(this works for white people too ZOMG!)
I was led to believe that the "black prison disparity" was not so much a cause of black people committing more crimes than white people as black people getting tougher sentences than white people for committing the same crimes. That leads to black people staying in jail longer, and therefore being accountable for a higher percentage of the imprisoned population.

That's not to say that there is racial equality in the number of crimes committed. But I'd be willing to bet that the ratio of crimes to races involved run more along the lines of economic classes than anything. People who are poor enough to have to struggle to survive, regardless of race, are under an incredible amount of pressure to live outside of the legal and economic system that is giving them the short end of the stick. And equitable or not, the fact remains that there is a much higher percentage of poor blacks than poor any other race.

But I'm getting off my point. The way to erase the "black prison disparity" isn't as simple as getting people to quit committing crimes when there is a genuine, statistically confirmed problem of unequal treatment in both the law enforcement and the justice systems.

[darighaz]

Like i said before, the point of the post wasn't to solve the inequities that arise in sentencing. It was to illustrate the point that the problem would be moot if people everywhere stopped commiting crimes in the first place.

[archdukezeb]

posts.

I'm gonna withdraw from this discussion but first I'll reiterate this: not everything is black and white (no pun intended) and not everybody is you. You know "someone elses shoes, etc." all that.

[darighaz]

Truth.

Outside of stealing to eat, i dont get why people who commit crimes think its needed. So much bigger problems in the world than whatever you felt irked you.

Not everyone grew up in the same conditions that leads to a life of Non-crime, but the world would be a better place if more people did.

[geesehoward4life]

Here i'll restate it so that you can read it through your race blinders.

Black people I speicifically said, that thanks to the fact that black people's reasons for commiting any crime are different, there is no way you can institutionalize crime reduction for black people. Black people.

There did i make it enough of a race specific issue for you now? Because according to your seeming train of though, only black people have issues, and black people also dont have common sense. Also since black people have all these specific problems (no one else gets arrested ever) and black people are fundamentally different from everyone else, black people cant use the same solutions that every other living being can. because they're not black. We need some specific solutions for black people, so that black people dont have to take responsibility for their actions. black people. We need to just tell them what to do, so that they dont have to think for themself. black people are clearly incapable of any rational thought, and dont know what is and isn't against the law.


Have i said black people enough times in my response for you to be satisfied yet?

Black people are not special. They can do the same shit as every other person in the country who got shit on by society.

You were the one who got the pat on the back for a statement that we already know is common sense. Don't get mad at me for simply challenging whether or not your statement is as easy to implement as it's been made out by the high-five you got. Ironically also... it is your tirade that further shows that your "common sense statement" is something that small children, Black or otherwise, already know. The fact that you posted it and then someone else thought that you were saying something that Black people had not already said that or tried it or done it, has nothing to do with me having race-blinders. But it does say and show that you do not like talking about the issue of race and how it still impacts not just America, but the world itself.

What is worse is that you then try to mock what I say by saying this;

Also since black people have all these specific problems (no one else gets arrested ever), and black people are fundamentally different from everyone else, black people cant use the same solutions that every other living being can.

Who ever said this part? That Black people never get arrested? And the bigger question is that even if you are trying to be cheeky, why go so far out to Absurdville? I could try to Play Devil's Advocate and say well maybe he means this or that, but why should I have to interpret what you mean when you knew what you were thinking when you typed it, but then decided that trying to be cute was better than simply saying straight-up that you don't actually like talking about race even when the incident itself follows on the heels of other racially driven incidents where Blacks have been senselessly killed by the very people who are supposed to be protecting the community that they are a part of... Since you didn't mind tossing out your two cents on this issue I simply decided that I needed more on that since you clearly thought you were adding something to the conversation... till I wanted you to bring something more to the table. Don't try to demean my question because you don't actually have either the desire or the information to actually address the issue. You could have always kept your obvious answers to yourself and then you wouldn't need to actually think about how to enact them and then this?

The same solutions that EVERY OTHER LIVING BEING can...? The Palestinians under Hamas believe that firing rockets into Israel is a solution, should Blacks follow them since illegal handguns and illegal gun activity is so rampant and available in too many Black communities and has clearly been shown to be "okay", should we follow Hamas-style solutions? Many Black Americans complain that when they inform the police about drug and gun activity they ultimately get dimmed out BY THE POLICE, TO THE CRIMINALS and if they are not dimmed out the police simply say they are working on it and move on, so with that being said should Black Americans become more aware of the need to form trained community based police units to combat the criminal element that is clearly overpowering the local law enforcement? White Americans under the guise of Manifest Destiny thought it was okay to slaughter Native American men, women and children and steal their land regardless of whether they became Americanized or not, should Blacks follow this solution of handling situations in getting what we want or need by this method? Some Jews under Nazi Germany aided in arresting and ousting other Jews in the belief that they would be allowed to remain in and as German citizens, should we follow this solution? The complicated story of how the Afghan Mujahideen after fighting their pro-Soviet government first and then the Soviet Army itself which destroyed their country in the end and then they were summarily abandoned by the United States after the war was over, causing the rise of the Taliban, should we pursue this solution? Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe continues to use past atrocities of White Europeans to justify his blatant killing of his own people as well as his tyranny even though he was quite correct when he stated that Whites had taken possession of all of the good land in the country and were using that as leverage to push policies while holding no actual population of merit in Zimbabwe (2% of the population), should we follow HIS solution to oust people and then spin-off into despotism from there?

Understand that the above situations are real and present "solutions" to which people think that the only way that they can get some sort of progress is either through overt or covert violence, selling themselves short and/or SELLING THEIR PEOPLE/RACE/COUNTRY SHORT or by honestly grinding it out and working towards solutions that will either empower their people to stand on their own without having to needlessly be an extra in Quentin Tarantino's next movie KILL EVERYTHING and see!?!? I can be cheeky and crappy too, OOOOO, or? Pushing and working for solutions that won't force them to have to shut themselves off from others so that they can get back on their feet. Even in the examples above about solutions, it was solutions reached by A MASS OR GROUP which is automatically COMPOSED OF INDIVIDUALS EITHER SUPPORTING, REJECTING OR BEING INDIFFERENT to what their PARTICULAR GROUP DID/NEEDED/WANTED/ETC. So before anyone claims anything, all of the above results have stemmed from individuals within the masses either accepting or rejecting what their leaders on whatever level of their society or group said was good for them all, or what they believed to be in the best interest of them AS INDIVIDUALS FOR THEIR GROUP.

When you zoom in on an individual I am well aware that their circumstances may vary, but when you begin to pan outwards and see that a particular group is moving in such-and-such direction, then unless you are going to actually delve into the who, what, why, where, how, when, etc?! That is driving this group to move in the direction it is going, ESPECIALLY IF IT IS A NEGATIVE DIRECTION! If you aren't going to get into the actual guts of the issue and give a damn...? Then common sense statements become not only senseless, but annoyingly-irrelevant. This is one of the reasons why Muslim Extremist cannot be talked to most of the time because too many have generations of relatives and ancestors who listened to TALK and got nothing from it. I'm watching as Egypt is slowly being overrun by Extremist and bloggers are getting arrested and shutdown and so on and so forth.

People need words backed up with solutions and an understanding that the speaker knows what is going on and actually gives a damn about it and will DO SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON OR PARTICIPATE IN CORRECTING THE PROBLEM. This "common sense fact" backed up by a plan, not somebody who is actually frustrated like you clearly are by the very issue that you then go on ahead and toss out a cute common sense quote about!?!? Nobody wants to hear something that the VERY FIRST TIME that a Black person got killed for stealing something that way back in early man's ascension! You don't think that some cave people, BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANNA SAY BLACK TOO MANY TIMES UH-HYUK-HYUK, made it clear that I won't have to kill your ass if you don't steal my shit!

Thanks Darighaz, but we already know these things already and I will be sure to point out the obvious next time something that honestly interest or concerns YOU takes place. But the rioting, the vandalism and senselessness stems from just like in this case it becomes a big deal to NOT ENFORCE THE LAW BECAUSE THE MURDERER WAS A COP AND THE VICTIM WAS BLACK. I don't need you or anyone else to tell me that cops don't kill Whites without rhyme or reason, I know that already and I have paid attention to the limited amount of coverage that it tends to get, and why? It is because the police hold a positive image of stability to the White American community/society AT LARGE. They are respectable, upstanding people who sacrifice or may end up sacrificing their lives for the sake of maintaining order, HOWEVER? Even on a historical level this is the EXACT OPPOSITE for TOO MANY Black American communities be they North, South, East, West or wherever. And whether people like it or not they were generally there to bully, bruise, beat, rape, pillage and make life a living hell more than help or maintain any stability within said Black communities.

To make the police officer a sign more of security than outright animosity among Black Americans has taken much more work than too many people understand and even care to do the research on when they see how the American Police Officer was used as a means to disrupt, justify seizures of land and property from Blacks EVEN WHEN BLACKS HAD LEGAL DOCUMENTS TO HOLD LAND OR HAVE PROPERTY. They have been used to destroy Black town's, communities, companies or anything else BLACK AMERICAN and have LEGAL PRECEDENT TO BE USED IN SUCH A MANNER when it is "deemed necessary". So whether we like it or not we're talking about things where without acknowledging history and the reason why things are the way that they are, sure? We all right now can TRY to pretend that all of this JUST STARTED in our lifetimes and this would be good for the status quo, but not good for those not a part of it or profiting from it.

I didn't ask you the questions that I asked you darighaz because of race, I simply wanted to see how long you would hold your position when plenty of Black parents have already instilled in their children "Don't do drugs. Say thank you, and please. Sit up straight. Don't say I be, say I am. Don't say she be, say she is. Say yes sir, no sir. Yes ma'am, no ma'am. Give respect and you'll get respect. Respect your elders and respect authority. Don't commit crimes and you won't go to jail." This isn't about that darighaz, this is about the fact that at one point Whites owned Blacks and in particular White Americans could do whatever they wanted with or to Black Americans. So while Black Americans are constantly told how much WHITE they could have in their family tree, it's not too popular to talk about how much BLACK a White American family has in THERE FAMILY TREE, and why? Because we know that much of it stems from slavery where Lord only knows how it could have gotten there, but we do know it wasn't a fair cultural exchange on any level.

You fast forward this over the centuries as the Black slaves and their descendants push for their right to recognition as an individual never mind the right to even be called an American citizen, so yes! We know others have been shit on, again! Thank you for pointing out the obvious and the NEXT TIME THAT "THE OTHERS" ARE HANDCUFFED AND THEN SHOT WHILE PRONE... We know to call you, however, we are not talking about Professor Ivo's android Amazo from DC Comics, nor the Super Adaptoid from Marvel comics or some androgynous, colorless, raceless, faceless person-place or thing. We are talking about the fact that a young Black man has been shot in the back while handcuffed and not resisting and it was casually done and clearly even by the confusion of the White BART cop doing the shooting? He has no idea why the hell he even reacted that way, but he did. This should be your first REAL CONCERN, his own reaction is straight out of WTF-ville!?!?

After this has happened... did his fellow officers then immediately right there arrest him on the spot? NO... they instead attempted to seize all of the video equipment that could record what was going on and what had gone on. The incident for the most part had to be leaked because some people managed to hide their cellphones or whatever, so this too doesn't concern you either? The fact that they attempted to seize the equipment that would show them doing what they have done doesn't actually concern anyone reading this? I've already read that they had attempted to pass a law that would have made it legal for them to seize these kinds of valuable pieces of information where the public, regardless of race, would be basically left open to being unable to report with PROOF, what they see when they have the means to record it at the time of the incident. Let me wrap this up because this post is once again ungodly long. What has happened since the shooting and death of Oscar Grant? Has the officer been arrested? If Grant was caught on video shooting this officer as he was prone on the ground would there be an investigation and allowing him to roam around free while the investigation is going on? No, so don't bother trying to lie. THIS, is where the vandalism and foolishness spring from, it comes from constantly being shown that YOU. DON'T. MATTER.

If you defend yourself from the police, you will be hunted down and exterminated whether right or wrong, like the original Black Panther Party. If you persevere and endure and show people that you will overcome any obstacle with kindness and at least a seeming amount of benevolence, then you will be shot in the head and killed like Martin Luther King Jr. You preach self-reliance and strive to employ and empower your own people so that they can compete with their White counterparts you will be framed, win your case, yet still be deported like Marcus Garvey. Or you will be allowed to be ambushed and killed by rivals the way that Malcolm X was. The NYPD was aware that the Nation of Islam was after him and they have actually tried numerous times to deny that they were complacent in his eventual murder and death. A PBS Special from last year ON HIS BIRTHDAY, finally confirmed that NYPD were undercover at the Autobahn when he was killed and had "leads" that an "incident" was going to take place that day.

When you gut people of their leadership, mock and make fun of the fact that previous generations of them used to turn the other cheek and simply strive to become a part of "your society". Destroy or allow the destruction of their lives and then talk to them about unity, the law, fairness and we're all in it together while YOU and YOURS don't have to worry about being killed both by the criminals... and the cops. It causes confusion, bitterness, irrationality and a whole host of emotional reactions and trauma's that are not going to do anyone, anywhere, ANY good. FYI, Black criminals generally are ALLOWED to revolving door because they are funneled back into the Black community, they really don't have anywhere else they can go, HOWEVER!? As the Black's who remain in the poorer Black communities that many repeat Black criminals are slingshot back into, become better at avoiding them or simply don't have anything left for these dirt-bags to steal from them...?

Notice that these Black wolves then start showing up in White areas and communities, as well as suburbia and carrying on in the same manner of home invasion, drug dealing and basic bullshit thuggery where Whites tend to live at and are assumed by them to have the things they can no longer steal from their own community and people. Meanwhile, when they were supposed to have been punished under the law for terrorizing the Black neighborhoods that they grew up in, the law just... by golly the law just... never seemed able to put them away for any substantial length of time, regardless of how many Black people they killed or maimed. Scary fact is that at any given time the judicial system may swing violently the other way and then arbitrarily give Blacks ridiculously long sentences for minor offenses or for things where the offender needs only community service or has mental issues that the lack of adequate healthcare and services, insurance, would have prevented this person from even being in front of the bench in the first place.

[japanat]

Damn, now this was a post worth reading! Reasoned, well-explained, rational. Explains the background emotions of the issue better than anything I've seen so far.

[archdukezeb]

I was being sarcastic when I said best quote of the thread if that wasn't evident enough from my long argument with darighaz. His statement was so ridiculous that I didn't know what else to say.

[geesehoward4life]

I wonder how many people even still remember this incident;

The South Los Angeles store, Empire Liquor, was normally staffed by Soon Ja Du's husband and son. However, on the morning of the shooting, Du was working behind the counter because her son had received death threats from local gang members against whom he was testifying in court and her husband was out resting in the family's van. Harlins' death came just 13 days after the videotaped beating of Rodney King by Los Angeles Police Department officers.

In a video captured by the security camera in the store, Latasha Harlins was seen putting a bottle of orange juice into her backpack. Du observed this action by Harlins, but apparently did not notice that Harlins had then approached the store's counter with money in her hand. Empire Liquor had experienced frequent incidents involving criminal activities such as shoplifting and burglary. Du physically confronted Harlins by grabbing Harlins by the sweater and attempting to confiscate her backpack by force. Harlins defended herself by striking Du three times, knocking Du on her bottom. Du then threw a stool and immediately reached under the counter to retrieve a handgun. Harlins threw the orange juice that was the source of the conflict onto the counter, turned and started to leave the store. Du fired at Harlins from behind and shot her in the back of her head, then claims she fainted.

Du's husband, Billy Heung Ki Du, heard the shot and rushed into the store. After speaking with his bruised wife, who falsely claimed to have been robbed before fainting, he dialed 9-1-1 to report the shooting and supposed theft. Paramedics soon arrived. However, it was too late; Harlins was already dead, her two dollars still in her left hand.

Du testified on her own behalf, even claiming that it was self-defense and that her life was in danger, but her words were contradicted by the videotape and the statements of the two witnesses present at the time.
(Geese says; Now watch how all of this wraps up) Du was convicted of voluntary manslaughter and was subsequently sentenced to five years probation, four-hundred hours of community service, and US$500.00 fine. The sentence was decided by Judge Joyce Karlin. The jury in Du's trial had recommended a 16-year jail sentence.

So even when the woman lied, repeatedly and simply didn't, couldn't or WOULDN'T ADMIT "Hey, I fuckin panicked! We were already stressed out because the gangs were terrorizing our store and I overreacted and I'm SO SORRY!"

Nope, instead Ja Du simply lied... got caught. KEPT LYING, GOT CAUGHT LYING and was summarily punished by the jury with a recommended sentence of 16 years in jail... To which a White woman named Joyce Karlin and I mention her race because it is typical for Whites when mediating for Blacks to simply haphazardly say "I think that you guys are being sooooh unfair to this woman! She's not a career criminal... so? Five years of probation, 400 hours of community service... and this little Black girl's life is roughly the equivalent of $500," bang gavel and "oh-kay thanks for 'you people' coming down for jury-duty! See ya!"

She could have given Ja Du any OTHER SENTENCE that included jail time, YET... Nah, 5 years of community probation and somethin-or-another, NEXT! And let me clarify that I said Whites MEDIATING for Black people. Joyce Carlin was supposed to be a Judge and she was not meant to sit there and then MEDIATE on a case as the judge where the defendant has CONTINUOUSLY! CONSTANTLY! LIED! And this kind of lazy law enforcement has been a historical PROBLEM when Whites have been called upon to enact and ENFORCE, the same kind of justice they would want FOR THERE CHILDREN, Ghetto or not, White trash or not, uneducated or illiterate OR NOT! Although I have found it interesting to see how Whites treat Poor Whites when they are killed... by other Whites....

And I just read your reply Archdukezeb, you have to forgive me because I normally don't post on here, so following certain forms of sarcasm aren't my strong suit on boards that I don't generally speak seriously on or post on about these kinds of topics. With that being said...

Rats! If only Latasha Harlins wouldn't have committed a crime, then she wouldn't have gotten shot in the... wait? She didn't commit any crime. Uhhhhh, okay well maybe if she didn't have the strength of a hundred Black little girls and hadn't knocked Ja Du on her ass for trying to snatch her up and not listen when she was told that she paid for the... Nahhhh, that can't be right!? And then the kicker is that Joyce Karlin then ran for and got elected to the California Superior Court.

I hate to break up the feel good moment of last year with Barack Obama getting voted in as president, but the average Black person on the street like Oscar Grant, getting shot while prone? Is nothing new and what is worse is that Grant, from the limited coverage that this story is getting here in Philadelphia, but Grant appears to have been trying to stop everything from spinning out of control so what example does it send that the man who tried to moderate and restore order, ends up being shot and killed while prone and pleading that he has a daughter and a family. It makes it loud and clear to anyone within that area or community to MIND. YOUR. FUCKIN. BUSINESS. When the police say move, move. When they say sit, sit. When they SAY spread'em, FUCK YOU WAITIN FOR, SPREAD'EM! Don't ASK THEM why are you arresting me, DON'T FUCKIN ASK QUESTIONS, JUST DO IT! And MAYBE, MAYBE... You'll get out of the situation in one piece, or? Maybe if he would have begged more and not committed a crime he would not have been shot in the back and brutally killed. The same way that if Latasha Harlins would have simply stopped trying to tell Da Ju that she has the money for the orange juice and to stop grabbing and attacking her, then Da Ju wouldn't have been forced to shoot a child in the back of the head over some orange juice, and then Joyce wouldn't have had to have ignored the verdict to do as she felt was oh-soh-fair... and just... for a bitch who lied repeatedly under oath.

[geesehoward4life]

I've always liked the song Check the Technique from Gangstarr, when hip-hop was actually about something. My bitching aside, I will leave you with this one last article to compare and contrast. I will say on the personal that I have almost lost my life at least on five different occasions to the very police that was and is supposed to protect me and mine, so Grant being killed is nothing shocking seeings though I've faced that situation and ironically done the EXACT OPPOSITE of what he did. My mother had a conniption fit when I told her about it and my best friend of college who had been there for one of them was absolutely traumatized by the incident when it happened when he was with me.

My own personal adventures in idiocy aside, take a look at this article and observe the language, the tone, the demeanor and ask yourself how does this look to people who generally can't get a fair shake in the court system. Some points, for starters? I do not and will not condone mindless violence against anyone, let alone against the police, but it is madness to be able to read the absolute conviction dripping from the page when a cop is killed by some criminal of any color, but then the befuddled confusion when the cop or A cop... kills an innocent person.

One last point of interest, I lived in the Philadelphia 39th District Police area when these bastards were worst than any street thug could ever be. For years the Black community protested, pleaded, begged, crawled and followed "proper procedures" to report these badge wearing BITCHES to city hall... Only to be told that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for Police Officers to carry on the way that we claimed. In the end, when they FINALLY got busted... The hundreds of tainted cases that these jack booting bastards had piled up, would have set the city back light-years to try to research and clean-up, so? As the years went by, the DA's office... simply quietly... and carefully... stopped investigating all of their convictions... They found plenty of instances where paperwork to the courts should have been caught by Philadelphia Judges who were seeing their criminal caseloads and it wasn't, yet no judges were ever outed in the press as to how the hell they could believe an elderly Black grandmother, could become THE CRACK QUEEN OF CRIME! As an old Daily News header called her.

I may still have that newspaper too in an old tote in the basement. The North Philadelphia, CRACK QUEEN OF CRIME! In big-ass letters on the front page!

This kind of crazy, Bizarro world nonsense is something that I have seen drive some Black people LITERALLY INSANE, right in front of my face.

Enough about that, take a look at this and see how VASTLY DIFFERENT the press and the situation is handled and note how many of the circumstances that are argued in favor of the BART-cop, stand ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE when even DREAMED OF by the defense team for this Black, cop-killer. I need to stress this to you as the reader, this is NOT about ME thinking that this Black cop-killer should be getting anything other than what he deserves, but it is ABOUT the COMPARISON of how ONE, the Cop-Killer, is GUILTY, NO MATTER WHAT THE REASON WAS BECAUSE HE KILLED THIS COP! While only his partner was there. Good enough for the Death Sentence for the cop-killer and yes I know with appeals and blah-blah-blah he could sit forever, that's not the point, but? Evidence shows that the Bart-Cop shot Oscar Grant and yet this bizarre malaise of ambiguity and benefit of the doubt and maybe more training would help... is put forward to condone, excuse, and ultimately justify... this now Ex-cop, still walking around. Still "awaiting" whatever is going to happen to him....

Cop killer gets 1st NH death sentence in 49 years

By BETH LaMONTAGNE HALL, Associated Press Writer Beth Lamontagne Hall, Associated Press Writer – Thu Dec 18, 8:07 pm ET



MANCHESTER, N.H. – A jury issued New Hampshire's first death sentence in a half century Thursday to a man who fatally shot a Manchester police officer to avoid arrest two years ago.

Lawyers for Michael Addison had sought a life sentence, arguing that he acted recklessly, not intentionally, and suffered from an abusive childhood and possible brain damage from his mother's heavy drinking while she was pregnant.

Prosecutors emphasized Addison's record of violence, including a crime spree a week before Officer Michael Briggs was shot in the head, and noted that Addison had said he would "pop a cop" if necessary.

Addison, 28, had no reaction as the Hillsborough County Superior Court jury announced its verdict after about 13 hours of deliberation over four days. The state Supreme Court will automatically review the conviction and sentence, and the defense said it will appeal.

The judge must formally impose the sentence, scheduled for Monday.

New Hampshire hasn't executed anyone since 1939. The last time a New Hampshire court imposed the death penalty was in 1959, but the lives of the two convicted men were spared when the U.S. Supreme Court struck down capital punishment for a time in the 1970s.

Briggs' wife, two young sons and parents attended Addison's sentencing. His father, Leland Briggs, said he hopes the verdict will help protect other police officers.

"This is what we wanted. This is what we got. I love my son and I'm glad," said Briggs, a former police officer himself.

In June, Judge Kathleen McGuire rejected claims that racial prejudice would prevent Addison, who is black, from getting a fair trial in predominantly white New Hampshire. She said there was no evidence that race influenced the state to seek the death penalty.

Jurors had been screened for bias and had to certify Thursday that race had not influenced their decision.

They unanimously agreed that Addison deserves to die by injection for shooting a police officer to avoid arrest.

"If I didn't feel completely convinced in my heart it was the right thing, I wouldn't have voted that way," juror Evelyn Reed told WMUR-TV. "So I have peace about it."

She declined to discuss the deliberations. Other jurors reached Thursday declined to comment.

When Briggs, 35, and his bicycle partner came across Addison and friend Antoine Bell-Rogers in an alley early on Oct. 16, 2006, they recognized the men as a suspects in a recent shooting and two armed robberies and ordered them to stop. Addison turned and shot Briggs in the head at close range, testimony showed.

The defense admitted on the first day of the trial that Addison killed Briggs, but defense attorney David Rothstein said the act was "fast," "totally unplanned" and "reckless."

Prosecutors called the shooting cold-blooded and premeditated.

"That fatal shot was no accident. It was no reckless misjudgment or panic-driven mistake," Attorney General Kelly Ayotte said in her opening statement.

The defense pointed to Addison's absentee parents and rocky childhood as grounds for mercy. Testimony showed that Addison's late mother, Cheryl Kiser, drank heavily, used drugs, and was known for violent outbursts, while his father, Michael Wilson, smoked crack throughout Addison's childhood and was rarely there for his son.

But Ayotte said sentencing Addison to life would have amounted to a free pass for Briggs' murder because Addison faced decades in prison for other convictions.

"There are millions (and) millions of people in this country who unfortunately come from far, far worse backgrounds than the defendant and they don't go out and harm and murder people," she argued.

Addison's attorneys have said he couldn't get a fair trial in a city that revered Briggs and was outraged by his murder. The defense also cited cases of premeditated multiple murders that did not result in death sentences.

In October, a jury in Brentwood handed down the state's first capital murder conviction since 1959 in the murder-for-hire case of millionaire John Brooks, who is appealing. The jury gave Brooks, who is white, life without parole, the only alternative to the death penalty in the capital murder statute.

New Hampshire law limits the death penalty to a handful of situations including murder for hire and murder of a police officer.

"I think a just verdict has been rendered," said Gov. John Lynch. He said murdering a police officer "really strikes at the heart and fabric of our society" and that the death penalty is appropriate "for such a heinous crime."

The governor warned legislators Thursday that he will veto any attempt to repeal or scale back New Hampshire's capital murder statute. Efforts to repeal the death penalty in New Hampshire have repeatedly failed in recent years, and opponents of capital punishment are considering another attempt in 2009.

___

Associated Press Writer Norma Love in Concord, N.H., contributed to this report.

Ironically, the issues that Addison faced as a child with two useless parents has been exacerbated in the Black American community by Black Americans own abandonment of the Extended Family model which allowed us to survive slavery, in favor of the White American Nuclear Family model....

[darighaz]

Eh ok i give in.

Everyone thats white is racist, we all hate black people, you have it worse off than anyone in the world, and because slavery used to exist, you wont ever stop bitching about how bad you all have it off.

You asked me how i intend to solve the problem? Its not my damn problem how to solve the problem. I dont need to post a massive explanation because you asked for one. I never claimed to have all the answers in the world. I did speak common sense. Because apparently no one has any out there. That IS my solution. TEACH SOME COMMON SENSE.

Why call out a corrupt stupid cop, when you can blame the whole city, + Bart + White people all at once. And lets bring up slavery, because thats fucking relevent in the discussion AT ALL.

All you have to say over and over, is examples of times people were being racist. Yes. It happens. It exists. What exactly do you think will be solved by continuing to relive the ignorance of the past.

[darighaz]

I've always liked the song Check the Technique from Gangstarr,

Consider that a band willing named themself after criminals. Tell me whats wrong with the picture.

That quote you posted


Wait so someone killed someone and got the death sentence. OH THE HORROR.


Has anyone at all in this thread said the cop was right? Has anyone at all said that the dude shouldn't have gotten shot? Because you keep acting like anyone has.

[RoxFontaine]

Free Mumia.

[darighaz]

Why does Philly apparently suck so hard >_> I've heard more bad shit about people from there than anywhere else exempting maybe LA.

[geesehoward4life]

Eh ok i give in.

Everyone thats white is racist, we all hate black people, you have it worse off than anyone in the world, and because slavery used to exist, you wont ever stop bitching about how bad you all have it off.

You asked me how i intend to solve the problem? Its not my damn problem how to solve the problem. I dont need to post a massive explanation because you asked for one. I never claimed to have all the answers in the world. I did speak common sense. Because apparently no one has any out there. That IS my solution. TEACH SOME COMMON SENSE.

Why call out a corrupt stupid cop, when you can blame the whole city, + Bart + White people all at once. And lets bring up slavery, because thats fucking relevent in the discussion AT ALL. And I see you are still going on when you claim that you'd supposedly "given up".

All you have to say over and over, is examples of times people were being racist. Yes. It happens. It exists. What exactly do you think will be solved by continuing to relive the ignorance of the past.

The ignorance of the past is still going on today and people are now running out of room or patience or TOLERANCE for talk, especially talking about or hearing things that they already know. The real response from you that matters is that "It's not my problem... and I am not going to write some long response to it."

Thank you for finally making a statement that actually shows where you stand.

Consider that a band willing named themself after criminals. Tell me whats wrong with the picture.

Consider that as soon as I mentioned race and spoke directly to you your tone changed considerably and it showed in your ability to be able to type. When you were talking to Fermented Yeast and replying to them you were level-headed and collected, but when the issue of race was put to you your typing was the first thing to start sliding. As for what is wrong with that picture, nothing, if they've not committed any crimes, broken no laws and are simply using the name to attract attention, we see it worked pretty well on getting yours now didn't it? Again, who can't be cheeky, it's pointless and unnecessary. You clearly care nothing for these kinds of subjects and would rather click your heels three times and wish that everything and everyone would simply play nice, I wish that YOUR WISH was true, but like Ranma said "Wishin don't make it true ya know."

So if an Anime of a boy who turns into a girl when doused with water can clearly put that across that we can wish all we want, but we have to do the work to make it real. Then why on earth should I deny the reality around me solely to appease you or anyone else who may not wish to read it, hear it, or talk about it? The answer is obvious, I don't have to, nor will I. You have an entire forum to go to, yet you decided to go into a thread and discuss an incident that in all honesty you don't even like or care for...? That makes no sense whatsoever, yet here you are and you continue when you have no vested interest and then when I indulged your comment that children already know and had to have been employed by adults at some point in time and space... You then become even more angered by your own dislike of the subject matter...?

I'm sorry but my very first post in here already stated and asked for leeway from Roxie because my post are long, because this subject is not a fast food deal a meal topic. The reason why this issue continues forward without end is because each new generation would like to find ways to forget it and not actually, honestly, DEAL WITH IT. Tell me, you think it was normal for Washington DC to have such an absurdly high murder rate for years while this is the capital of our country? You would think that the lawmakers would be scared witless to step foot outside Capital Hill and the like because the actual city of Washington is its own little war zone, yet...?

No fear... no concern... Sky is high, cloud is low, but the earth can absorb water...

Huh?

So why aren't they afraid, because they don't actually venture into the city itself, they don't need to. This is the kind of stupidity where anyone else would be all over the Mayor of DC to find out why the hell the capital of the country is a goddamn crime zone and then they would be about the business of FIXING IT, even if it is JUST for show-and-tell/window dressing. Things would be and should be done with the same ease that these politicians up on the Hill, grease their palms and roll around with the lobbyists. The capital of the country should not be one of the lowest ranking everything's of everything and YET, it is, at least last time I checked and why? We already know that Marion Barry, fine Black crack mayor of this city. Was not doing what needed to be done to keep the city in order and have it in a condition that it stands not only as the capital of our country, but it should be just as much of a beacon of our nations achievements just like the people who marvel at Tokyo when they visit it or even the people who are awe-inspired when they visit New York City, yet?

And now what is this?
Why does Philly apparently suck so hard >_> I've heard more bad shit about people from there than anywhere else exempting maybe LA.

So this is what you reduce yourself to now? So all of your common sense is now out the window because you feel slighted about a subject that you never like talking about anyway. I take it your common sense told you to now undermine yourself because you're disgruntled and angry. Like I told you before Rox Fontaine I don't post on here because this is NOT THE PLACE for serious topics to be talked about. You fight battles that are worth fighting and you spend time where the time is well spent. And darighaz I noticed that with your childish behavior your typing has improved so I doubt very highly that you've actually avoided anything, as far as staying out of trouble. And if you heard such "bad shit" about people from Philadelphia, then why would you provoke someone from such a place? You continue to show sides of yourself that you should keep concealed. And you can at least COMMIT to being the way you are, don't use words like "apparently" so you can then claim someone "misunderstood" you or "I was just saying" or "I was responding to Rox Fontaine saying Free Mumia".

Why does Philly apparently suck so hard...?
Because we have you, all over our nutsack son...

See, who can't make snide little comments...

[Roxie]

Ok. Let's make another thread or take it to pm's please.
I really don't want to close this thread b/c I think it's important people know what's going on with this case, however, if this continues, I will.

[Jetsetlemming]

Why does Philly apparently suck so hard >_> I've heard more bad shit about people from there than anywhere else exempting maybe LA.
NO U

[RoxFontaine]

Ok. Let's make another thread or take it to pm's please.
I really don't want to close this thread b/c I think it's important people know what's going on with this case, however, if this continues, I will.

Word up. Geese's collected, logical and relevant discussion is entirely intolerable. Why wait.....

[Roxie]

It's not a judgment on the quality of anyone's posts. It's about derailing. The discussion is perfectly worthwhile, but needs its own thread. Not this one.

[RoxFontaine]

So you would rather we bicker back and forth within the limited scope of the first few pages of this thread? Keeping things on topic, of course...

[Roxie]

I would rather this stay on topic...expand sure, but bring it back.

[stsparky]

I think all the BART cops should be kept from weapons of lethal force until re-trained and re-certified in their use. The community needs to select a "police commissioner" and a weekly public "townhouse" meeting to review this and previous incidents of this "final" nature. Any patrolman whose lethal actions can not be justified should be held for trial.

Re: the death ...Clearly, the incident was a tragic mistake by an officer with just two years on the job. This officer, like anyone else under stress, is only half as good in the field as he is on his best training day. This is all the more reason why private citizens and officers alike can never get enough training.

There is quite a bit of speculation as to what happened. I do not believe the officer intentionally shot a prone man in the back. The look of surprise on the officer’s face when the weapon discharged is evidence that the shot was unintentional.

However, there did not appear to be a reason to present a handgun (or shoot) at that time. If there was a reason to present the gun, the officer should not have had his finger on the trigger unless he intended to shoot.

Again, this a classic example of the adverse effects of stress in any physical confrontation. The more lethal the confrontation, the more stressful, and the more likely you will be half as good (and half as smart) as you are on your best training day.

Tragically for the suspect, a non-lethal encounter became lethal.

Unfortunately for the officer, a career in law enforcement is over and he will forever carry this incident with him.

MORE TRAINING would have prevented this incident from happening. ..."

[Zensouken]

I would rather this stay on topic...expand sure, but bring it back.

I believe that what happened in "Subject A" brings relevance for discussion in "Subject B" since "Subject A"'s occurrence is due in part because of a larger problem; that problem being "Subject B".

Talking about things like "Subjects B, C, D, E, etc..." really helps to figure out and possibly solve why the hell "Subject A" even happens.

Therefore my stand is let them talk since it's relevant.

[archdukezeb]

I've always liked the song Check the Technique from Gangstarr
Speaking of Gangstarr thinking bout all this has made me listen to Invasion by Jeru alot recently. Good track. You all should listen if you haven't.

Perhaps more on topic the guy finnally got arrested. In nevada:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/13/BAM615A08A.DTL&feed=rss.bayarea

01-14) 00:13 PST Oakland -- The BART police officer who fatally shot an unarmed man on an Oakland train platform and then refused to explain his actions to investigators was arrested Tuesday in Nevada on suspicion of murder, authorities said.

Johannes Mehserle, 27, of Lafayette was taken into custody in Douglas County, Nev., said Deputy Steve Velez of the Douglas County sheriff's office. The arrest was also confirmed by David Chai, chief of staff to Oakland Mayor Ron Dellums.

Mehserle was arrested in the New Year's Day shooting of Oscar Grant, a 22-year-old supermarket worker from Hayward who was lying facedown after being pulled off a BART train by police investigating a fight. An Alameda County judge signed an arrest warrant alleging murder, and Mehserle surrendered without incident, authorities said.

The shooting, which was recorded by passengers in videos widely circulated on the Internet and television, prompted public outrage, and some viewers said that the shooting appeared to be an execution.

Sources said Mehserle was in Nevada because he feared for his safety after death threats were made against him. Douglas County is 15 miles south of Carson City in northwestern Nevada and includes part of Lake Tahoe.

Mehserle's attorney, Christopher W. Miller of Sacramento, confirmed early today that his client was arrested on suspicion of murder. He said he would not comment further until a news conference today.

Alameda County District Attorney Tom Orloff was expected to announce details of the arrest today. He could not be reached late Tuesday.

Authorities have been under immense pressure to take action in the case. On Tuesday, BART board President Thomas Blalock and board Director Carole Ward Allen sent a letter to Orloff, urging the district attorney to move expeditiously to complete the investigation and file charges if warranted.

Some Oakland community leaders and civil rights activists said the case is symbolic of larger problems with police officers using excessive force on young black men. Grant was black and Mehserle is white.

The arrest came on the eve of a protest scheduled for 4 p.m. today outside Oakland City Hall, the latest in a series of demonstrations in which BART has been accused of mishandling the investigation.

BART police on Monday turned over the results of their preliminary investigation to Orloff's office. A separate investigation by Oakland police was launched last week, and Mehserle's arrest was related to that probe, sources said. The state attorney general is also monitoring the case.

BART officers had detained Grant and several other passengers at about 2 a.m. Jan. 1 as they investigated a fight aboard a train from San Francisco. Passengers with cellular phone cameras captured footage that shows Grant lying facedown when he was shot.

In the videos, Mehserle appears to be trying to put cuffs on Grant, and Grant appears to be struggling, when Mehserle suddenly pulls his service weapon from his holster and fires one shot into Grant's back.

Mehserle declined to speak to BART criminal investigators after the shooting. Then last Wednesday he resigned rather than answer questions from BART's internal affairs division.

His departure came the same day Grant was buried and a peaceful protest at the Fruitvale BART Station erupted into violence in downtown Oakland. Demonstrators set cars on fire and broke windows at dozens of businesses. By night's end, police had arrested 105 people.

Grant's family has filed a $25 million legal claim against BART, signaling an intention to sue for damages. The family's attorney, John Burris, said late Tuesday that he was pleased to hear of Mehserle's arrest.

"If it's true, the family is delighted, and it will really help with the healing process," Burris said. "This is also very important for the community. This had to occur; it was almost a no-brainer. I think the district attorney ought to be commended for moving (the case) expeditiously."

[darighaz]

My posting style slipped because i realized i was dealing with a zealot, and the discussion had stopped. Its like that discussion about isreal/gaza. Shortly after the derail, both sides were up in arms, and both sides will never realize that both sides of the conflict are wrong. You can post as much eloquent well though out material as you want, the fact remains that you dont want to hear/believe/act on anything besides what you want to hear/believe/act on.

Your response to me saying "people should commit less crimes" was, "Random forum poster, Solve all race issues and social problems in your next post". Because that was realistically going to happen. There was never any real discussion intended. You just wanted a reason to post a bunch of shit about why race relations, some case from 10+ years ago, why white people think black people are slaves, ALL KINDS of shit that had no real bearing on the original statement of "That bart cop was retarded, and it doesn't need to be about race to make it utterly retarded and just as bad."

You call me blind to living in others shoes, and not understanding race issues. You're right i dont GET race issues, and i dont WANT to start understanding race issues. I currently live in a happy bubble of judging right from wrong based on things that happen not the reason behind them. When i start actually understanding the reasons behind things i've lost a key bit of neutrality and open mindedness, as a core function of understanding.

I will continue to say that people should just in general try and commit less crimes. And i will continue to utterly ignore race as an issue, in favor of protesting the injustice itself, for the injustice that it is.

This entire situation = Stupid cop killed someone and needs to be punished to the full extent of the law. Detainee in question clearly posed no threat to any of the officers, and the only POSSIBLE defense (which is only possible because it is slightly more plausible than the rest) is that he didn't realize it was his handgun. He should still get the max penalty for the crime regardless of defence, as he shot a man in cold blood.

Its amazing how i both managed to condemn the criminal, suggest a maximum penalty, gave a good reason for why i think so, and NOT make a race issue out of it.

Was race part of the reasoning? sure, it might have been. Probably was even. But that doesn't change what happened, and what happened is that a man was killed while lying facedown by the people who are supposed to be protecting him. Its totally unacceptable for police to be killing ANYONE unless they have to.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

Speaking of Gangstarr thinking bout all this has made me listen to Invasion by Jeru alot recently. Good track. You all should listen if you haven't.

Perhaps more on topic the guy finnally got arrested. In nevada:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/13/BAM615A08A.DTL&feed=rss.bayarea
The Oakland Tribune (Link (http://www.insidebayarea.com/oaklandtribune/ci_11447812)) corroborates this and that he was arrested on a murder charge.

I'm not too sure how I feel about it being a murder charge after looking at the California penal code (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/187-199.html) but it could still fly I think, but I'm not too sure from the information so far that there was actual intent or malice in his actions. We'll see.

[darighaz]

Malice maybe not, Intent. Hell yes.

I'll bet they're going with He thought it was his taser, hence no intent.

If he gets off innocent... Ugh.

[Urameshi YuSooKey]

All you have to say over and over, is examples of times people were being racist. Yes. It happens. It exists. What exactly do you think will be solved by continuing to relive the ignorance of the past.
Maybe because the past seems to keep repeating itself and that these incidences are far too prevalent to be simply ignored and dismissed.

You call me blind to living in others shoes, and not understanding race issues. You're right i dont GET race issues, and i dont WANT to start understanding race issues. I currently live in a happy bubble of judging right from wrong based on things that happen not the reason behind them. When i start actually understanding the reasons behind things i've lost a key bit of neutrality and open mindedness, as a core function of understanding.

I will continue to say that people should just in general try and commit less crimes. And i will continue to utterly ignore race as an issue, in favor of protesting the injustice itself, for the injustice that it is.
Being willfully ignorant is such a beautiful thing ain't it.

Was race part of the reasoning? sure, it might have been. Probably was even. But that doesn't change what happened, and what happened is that a man was killed while lying facedown by the people who are supposed to be protecting him. Its totally unacceptable for police to be killing ANYONE unless they have to.
But do you think the situation would have culminated in an accidental shooting by the BART cops if the individuals involved were white? It's absolutely amazing how race influences officers' protocol. In how quickly they reach for their weapon or how often you are pulled over or stopped on the street, or even why your person and vehicle must be searched for evidence. It's these discriminatory practices which lead up to these situations and have a hand in the disproportionate prison population.

[darighaz]

I said in my post, Race was probably part of the problem.

The case doesn't need race issues to make it any more shitty than it is, all it does is polarize anyone who ever is on the fence. The case would have been better served leaving race out entirely, and when it turned out later on, all the stupid racists out there would have been left hanging their heads when they had realized they had been fighting for that which they usually decry.

Its not being willfully ignorant. Its willfully ignoring the race of people. If more people did it, we'd be in a much better place. Its the same as me not wanting to understand what makes pedos tick. I willfully ignore the WHY in favor of the WHAT. The why is all well and good for making grand speeches, but the WHAT is what happened.

[MNJetter]

Dari, I appreciate your efforts to remain color-blind in all situations, but also want to clarify that it is a human world we live in, and humans, not just issues, that we deal with. I respect your desire to remain uninvolved with race issues, but you can't possibly suggest that willfully remaining ignorant of anything, including race issues, causes you to be neutral. True neutrality, I believe, can only come when you truly understand and sympathize with all sides of the story, regardless of whether or not your share their views. If you can't understand the thoughts behind race issues and the people who bring them up, then you don't have the whole picture. Without the whole picture, there is no way you can be neutral about it. Your views are admirable in theory, and personally, I share your ideal that race shouldn't be part of the issue at all. But neutral, no. Yours is just another point of view.

Knowing the "reason behind" things that happen is precisely what makes you neutral. The more you research, the deeper and wider you delve into any issue, the more informed and unbiased your opinion will become.

EDIT: On second thought, this goes for everybody, too. Instead of simply condemning Dari for a dissenting point of view, you might want to actually consider the essence of what is being said. Even if you don't agree with it, try to understand it.

[darighaz]

Eh, probably true.

But as you said, we're all only human. WRT race issues, i understand it more than i'd like, but i cant bring myself to get behind the cause. It all feels too much like everyone blaming random junk than it does legitamate trying to solve problems. I notice in all of the eloquent posting brought against me, there was no solution presented there ever.

My thing about staying neutral was kinda dumb, i'll agree. Poorly worded. I suppose my problem with delving into the issue, is that it all boils down to human stupidity. There is no modern reason that whites should hate on blacks or blacks should hate on whites. it entirely boils down to the past, and in most cases a past that one never experianced.

Its currently a cycle wherin racists do dumb shit to piss off minorities, minorities get pissed at the cycle of abuse and invariably do some kinda dumb shit (see rioting (Also i dont mean everyone does something dumb, just someone does)), and then the racists use the act to justify their racism. No laws can be passed to stop racist actions, because the laws are already in place. And you cant pass a law that says we have to enforce the law.

The ONLY way shit like will ever stops is when the circle shrinks , and the circle wont shrink any faster if everyone pushes their part of it harder. All we can really do as a society is do our best to better the next generation. Protesting that the law wasn't being upheld sure, but what GAIN is there for the civil right movement, in decrying everything here as evil white racists. I think there would honestly been more change had race been left out, and everyone got pissed about police brutality in general. And when all is said and done, if you want to talk about a victory for black people in general, or a forward change in society, FINE. But to open up the issue, saying that we need to fix everything because our race has been wronged, simply serves to break focus away from bringing a murderor to justice (which just about everyone can get behind), to an issue of race relations, which are a far more polarizing issue, as this thread has shown.

Also, Because you never addressed it. Naming your band after criminals isn't the best way to promote equality and non racism. It actually pretty much tells everyone that stereotypes are 100% right.

[darighaz]

I counter your ranma with my ghandi by the way :

Be the change you wish to see in the world.

MNJetters avatar changed while posting this. I got freaked out when i saw that.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

Malice maybe not, Intent. Hell yes.

I'll bet they're going with He thought it was his taser, hence no intent.

If he gets off innocent... Ugh.
Intent to do what though? Kill the guy or just shoot him? He shouldn't have even brought out his taser much less his gun, so he should still face harsh legal consequences for doing that and shooting an innocent guy, but any actual intent to kill him is arguable. Why would you shoot a guy in his lower back if you intended to kill him?

[darighaz]

If its a murder charge, they'd need to prove intent to kill wouldn't they? I'm no legal expert, but couldn't they say no intent to kill therefore not murder therefore he gets off?

The dude should be in prison for a good long time. Killing someone is never a matter of WHOOPS. Especially ESPECIALLY when you are a cop. You are the one whos not supposed to be making these mistakes.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

Well, the SF Chronicle says he's been arrested on a "suspicion of murder" charge. Also just because he's only been arrested on that doesn't mean he's only going to face trial for murder; there are other possible charges depending on what the district attorney feels like prosecuting for.

I just read the penal code again and in California, any "intent" doesn't have to be explicit but only implied:

188. Such malice may be express or implied. It is express when
there is manifested a deliberate intention unlawfully to take away
the life of a fellow creature. It is implied, when no considerable
provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing
show an abandoned and malignant heart.
When it is shown that the killing resulted from the intentional
doing of an act with express or implied malice as defined above, no
other mental state need be shown to establish the mental state of
malice aforethought. Neither an awareness of the obligation to act
within the general body of laws regulating society nor acting despite
such awareness is included within the definition of malice.

Someone else pointed out on another forum, that this could be used against the cop for a murder charge. That is, even though he didn't actually intend to kill the man, that he showed such gross negligence that he didn't care about the potentially fatal consequences of his actions, which apparently allows for more than just a manslaughter charge.

[darighaz]

Heres hopin.

[MNJetter]

I counter your ranma with my ghandi by the way :

Be the change you wish to see in the world.

MNJetters avatar changed while posting this. I got freaked out when i saw that.
"Ranma"? (http://www.opusgames.com/toys/pics/RanmaPCE1.jpg)

....anyway. That's one of my favorite quotes. But think of it this way -- would the change you wish to see in the world really be people picking an idealistic future and attempting to quash any point of view that endangers it? Short of burning history books and making the discussion of civil rights illegal, I don't see how you could possibly render the entire country colorblind. And I wouldn't want to be part of that kind of change, as I am a big fan of the concept that information should be freely available for everybody. I'm sure you are too, but probably don't think of it that way.

Yeah, I changed my avatar. No need to keep Santa this far past the holidays. :P

Paste: Everybody knows that abdominal wounds are the slowest and most painful way you could possibly kill somebody using a gun. They bleed internally and are almost impossible to stop. That's why it took the guy 7 hours to die. If you're trying to disable, you go for the shoulder or the lower leg.

I don't know if the cop had the direct intent to kill. But I think he had enough intent to warrant at least 2nd degree murder. If it was a civilian in this exact same situation, they'd at least be charged with that. Who knows if he'll be convicted, but I don't think the initial charges should be any less than that. (not that I looked into Cali's definition of murder. Just from what I know about murder charges in general)

[darighaz]

Was in response to geese quoting anime in one of his posts that teaching our kids common sense and decency is pointless, and i'm wrong for being an idealist when it comes to arguing on the internet.

Quashing talk of race issues is different from simply not caring about someones race in the face of injustice. I agree that open discourse is good when productive, and we can learn from our past in many cases in order to learn from the future. However, Cops are pigs is neither productive nor even discourse. Its just pointless hate speech that gains noone anything.

[Plekto]

The Oakland Tribune (Link (http://www.insidebayarea.com/oaklandtribune/ci_11447812)) corroborates this and that he was arrested on a murder charge.

I'm not too sure how I feel about it being a murder charge after looking at the California penal code (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/187-199.html) but it could still fly I think, but I'm not too sure from the information so far that there was actual intent or malice in his actions. We'll see.

Moral of the story: Always take video of anything the police are doing to other people. If there had been nobody else present, we all know how this would have been reported in the media.

[Roxie]

I believe that what happened in "Subject A" brings relevance for discussion in "Subject B" since "Subject A"'s occurrence is due in part because of a larger problem; that problem being "Subject B".

Talking about things like "Subjects B, C, D, E, etc..." really helps to figure out and possibly solve why the hell "Subject A" even happens.

Therefore my stand is let them talk since it's relevant.
Hello!
I can't argue against that :-/

I just don't want it to get to out of hand like I've seen it happen so many times before. I get a bit nervous about that. But I know, you're right.

[geesehoward4life]

Hello!
I can't argue against that :-/

I just don't want it to get to out of hand like I've seen it happen so many times before. I get a bit nervous about that. But I know, you're right.

You needn't worry about the situation getting out of control.

[RoxFontaine]

Hello!
I can't argue against that :-/

I just don't want it to get to out of hand like I've seen it happen so many times before. I get a bit nervous about that. But I know, you're right.

I am now thoroughly convinced that whatever I post is displaying in wingdings.

[MNJetter]

Was in response to geese quoting anime in one of his posts that teaching our kids common sense and decency is pointless, and i'm wrong for being an idealist when it comes to arguing on the internet.

Oh, lol. I guess I wasn't paying much attention to other peoples' posts.

[darighaz]

Nah, i'm just never clear who i'm talking to or what i'm talking about.

I'm bad at wording my opinions on things.

[Roxie]

I am now thoroughly convinced that whatever I post is displaying in wingdings.
That may have been what you meant, but you never actually stated such...and your presentation was lacking :p

[puzzo]

Paste: Everybody knows that abdominal wounds are the slowest and most painful way you could possibly kill somebody using a gun. They bleed internally and are almost impossible to stop. That's why it took the guy 7 hours to die. If you're trying to disable, you go for the shoulder or the lower leg.

As far as I know police are taught "Shoot to stop" meaning aim for the largest body mass (Torso in most cases) and aren't taught how to disable. I also think that shooting of hands, shoulders or legs is frowned upon.

Also agree with the "Pig" statement. because even if you hate them, it's their job to protect you, you might as well not disrespect the entire police force for the handful who are racist pricks. :cop:

[japanat]

Anyone who thinks that the police could shoot a baddy in the arm or leg, let alone the hand, doesn't have much experience with firearms. While there are some marksmen out there who have the skills to hit an unmoving hand with a pistol from 30 yards in a stress-free environment, most people's aim goes to shit in any kind of stress situation. You ever watch "Cops" or any of those shows, and see a cop or group of cops fire 7, 8, or more rounds, and maybe get a hit with 2?

Ask any of the military guys on the board - a regular infantryman who tried to shoot their target in the arm, leg, hand, etc, would likely get their ass chewed off by a sergeant. Now add in motion of the 'target', plus the likelihood that person has a gun of their own.

Police are not trained to aim at the shoulder, they shoot at the center of mass. This BART fuckup should never have pulled his gun at all; but having pulled it, where he shot the poor guy isn't a surprise - merely a shame.

[darighaz]

It wasn't exactly 30 yards in a stressfull situation here though.

It was more of 3 feet against an unmoving target w/ 0 time restrictions. The dude wasn't even fighting back.

[archdukezeb]

He just said he had no reason to pull his gun out at all. The whole shooting at someones arms and legs has no relation to the bart situation because the guy was down on the ground. What would that have done?

As Japanat was pointing out their's no real way for the police to try and target a person's arm or leg. This isn't some kids cowboy film where the good guys can shoot all the guns out of the bad guys hands. The police don't have a VATS window they can pull out and disable a persons gun arm. Even in Fallout it's a low percentage of working at any range. If they have a legitimate reason to shoot someone then they need to take them down quick.

[Kannon]

Two things: As I stated before, the majority of law enforcement agencies train their officers to "neutralize the threat", is the wording used. Two, the saying "two to the chest, one to the head" is not a joke, or a line from a movie. Why are we taught that? To neutralize the threat. When I first joined, the Air Force didn't teach this method, however it was still out there. Due to the increase in usage of body armor by criminals, the Air Force now teaches this method as well. Point being, the individual wouldn't have shot the victim in an extremity even if the situation wasn't fucked up in the first place.

[MNJetter]

As far as I know police are taught "Shoot to stop" meaning aim for the largest body mass (Torso in most cases) and aren't taught how to disable. I also think that shooting of hands, shoulders or legs is frowned upon.
I agree. I didn't say "police" in my original statement, though. Just "you," meaning whoever wants to specifically disable someone. I was just responding to FYP's "Why would you shoot a guy in his lower back if you intended to kill him?" -- in other words, the answer to his question is "If you shoot a guy in his lower back, you are trying to kill him. Or at least, you're not trying specifically to disable without killing."

[Roxie]

Interesting talk on a police forum (http://www.policeworld.net/vb/showthread.php?t=14711) about this case.

[Roxie]

BART Promises Investigation Of New Grant Video (http://www.foxreno.com/news/18554361/detail.html#-)

Friday, January 23, 2009 – updated: 6:05 pm PST January 25, 2009
OAKLAND, Calif. -- An angry BART general manager has pledged a “rigorous investigation” of a second officer’s actions on the night Oscar Grant III was fatally slain by former transit police officer Johannes Mehserle.

BART General Manager Dorothy Dugger was responding to a new videotape aired by KTVU that shows a second officer striking one of the men detained on the transit station platform early on January 1st.

“I take this new allegation of police use of unreasonable force extremely seriously,” Dugger said in a prepared statement released Saturday night. “I have directed (BART) Police Chief Gary Gee to conduct a rigorous internal affairs investigation into this officer’s actions.”

The new video shows a BART police officer leaving one suspect on the ground and walking over to an area where a female officer is talking to three other men. The officer, named Tony Pirone according to the San Francisco Chronicle, then appears to punch one of the men in the face.

"That was quite a shot," says Peter Keane a law professor with University of California Hastings College of Law. "That's a pretty brutal punch, knocks his head back, sends him to the ground."

After the punch, Grant can be seen putting his hands up. The two men flanking Grant sit down as the same officer appears to point a taser at them. The video then stops. Two officers arrive and that is when Mehserle shot Oscar Grant in the back, killing him. Mehserle now faces a murder charge.

Investigators say the officer who delivered the punch and who had his knee on Grant's neck during the shooting is not charged with anything, something Peter Keane disagrees with.

"If the district attorney is saying he's not going to charge any officer except Mehserle in my opinion, he's not doing his job," said U.C. Berkeley law school professor Franklin Zimring. Zimring also said the district attorney may be focusing on the shooting first, and "he may need that officer's testimony."

John Burris is representing Oscar Grant's family. He says he knew about the punch and believes it escalated the incident."His (the officer's) aggressiveness then caused the other officer to be aggressive, I believe," says Burris. "And that aggressiveness then ultimately led to the shooting, if you didn't have that level of conduct I don't believe the shooting would have taken place."

Alameda County District Attorney Tom Orloff wouldn't comment Friday on potential criminal charges about the BART police officer who threw the punch.
New video emerges showing BART officer punching Oscar Grant (http://carlosmiller.com/2009/01/25/new-video-emerges-showing-bart-officer-punching-oscar-grant/)
January 25th, 2009 · 6 Comments

By Carlos Miller
Another cell phone video has emerged showing a BART police officer striking Oscar Grant in the face, knocking his head backward and staggering the 22-year-old man who was eventually killed by another BART officer.

The officer who punched Grant in the video is the same officer whose knee was on Grant’s head when Johannes Mehserle shot him in the back.

The new video (http://www.ktvu.com/video/18554358/index.html) aired Friday night on KTVU-TV in San Francisco.

According to the San Francisco Chronicle (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/24/BANS15GOS6.DTL&tsp=1), the officer’s name is Tony Pirone. He is now under departmental investigation.

He and the other officers present at the time of Grant’s shooting all remain on paid administrative leave while the investigation continues, but until Saturday BART was not investigating the conduct of anyone besides Johannes Mehserle, 27, who shot Grant.

After he was punched, Grant can be seen sliding down to a sitting position and raising his hands in compliance.

[Roxie]

Second officer in BART shooting under investigation (http://www.mercurynews.com/crime/ci_11552758)
Sean Maher
Oakland Tribune
Posted: 01/25/2009 07:51:44 PM PST

OAKLAND — A new investigation into the circumstances surrounding a BART police officer's fatal shooting of Oscar Grant III began over the weekend, as a second officer came under fire for allegedly using excessive force.

In a previously unexamined segment of cell phone video unearthed the week of Grant's death on Jan. 1, an officer appears to walk up to a man who is standing against the wall at the Fruitvale BART station and strike that man with his right hand. Some have called the blow an unprovoked punch, and BART officials responded by announcing a new investigation.

Grant died early New Year's Day when now-former BART police Officer Johannes Mehserle, responding with four other officers to reports of a fight on a train, shot and killed Grant as the Hayward resident lay face down and restrained by another officer. BART police investigated the incident for just under two weeks and turned their findings over to Alameda County District Attorney Tom Orloff's office. Orloff charged Mehserle with second-degree murder.

At no time during that initial investigation did any witnesses or officers raise a complaint about any officer other than Mehserle using unreasonable force, BART spokesman Linton Johnson said.

Civil rights attorney John Burris, who is representing Grant's family in a $25 million suit against BART, said witnesses he interviewed in the days immediately following the shooting had described the officer in question as
Advertisement
punching Grant several times, as well as using "rough language," threatening people and possibly using racial slurs.

BART has declined to identify any of the officers present at the shooting besides Mehserle, citing a request from Orloff's office.

"I take this new allegation of police use of unreasonable force extremely seriously," BART General Manager Dorothy Dugger said in a statement Saturday. "As we said when we completed our preliminary investigation and delivered that to the district attorney, this remains an ongoing investigation."

Burris said the man being struck in the video is Grant. BART could neither confirm nor deny that Sunday.

Whoever it is, the blow appears to be unprovoked but could be lacking context in the video, according to Bob Talbot, a professor at the University of San Francisco School of Law.

"Police are allowed to use reasonable force to make a lawful arrest. That could have existed if they had probable cause to make an arrest," he said. "Reasonable force only, though: if you move past that and use excessive force, you commit a crime. And how we define reasonable force will always change depending on the circumstances. That's why you watch a video. But in that video you catch things out of context, and you can't be 100 percent sure."

The video does not show, for example, what the man is doing with his hands just before the officer strikes him, Talbot said.

"I can't see any self-defense in there," he said. "It didn't look like he was going for a weapon, but I sure couldn't see it from my screen. It's a little fuzzy, but didn't look like anything."

Some news reports have speculated that Orloff could be holding off on charges against the officer to encourage that officer to testify at Mehserle's trial.

"I don't know what (the officer) has said, in terms of what he observed Mehserle doing," Burris said.

"That may be an issue the DA has to deal with. The DA could very well give him immunity in exchange for his testimony. That's a tough call," Burris said. "Oscar's family thinks the man should be prosecuted but don't want to do anything that would hinder the murder charge against Mehserle. They would want anything that gets Mehserle prosecuted and convicted for murder. Any witnesses that support that would be important."

[Jetsetlemming]

Civil rights attorney John Burris, who is representing Grant's family in a $25 million suit against BART, said witnesses he interviewed in the days immediately following the shooting had described the officer in question as
Advertisement

[Roxie]

As Advertisement?

[haterllnation]

He is joking about the article you copy+pasted. You copied everything, including the advertisements. Since they are images, their tag has them labled as "Advertisement."

[Charrington]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29061709/

Yep

[MNJetter]

He'd been a transit cop for 2 years and had only been certified to use a taser for a month?

Does this happen often? I know there are some law enforcement officers on this board -- that question is mainly directed at them, because I'm genuinely curious.

[Kannon]

It can happen often; it's random, really. When I was stationed @ Travis AFB, California, they wanted to hit me with OC (Oleoresin Capsicum) so I could carry it there. I told them that that would be the only base I would ever carry it, and it was to be a short tour, so it wasn't in my interest to be hit/carry it. So I did neither. Same with the taser.

Point being, not all officers are trained on all methods of riot control/weapons, it just depends on what they want you to be trained on, or what you want to be trained on. Honestly the fact that he was only certified to carry a taser for a month should have had him more comfortable with it. It's when your training lapses over a long period of time that you are considered unable to carry that weapon/control item.

One last thing now that I think about it; considering my PoV from the military, I don't have a problem not having OC/taser on my side; between my rifle, sidearm, and collapsible baton I am comfortable with my arming. Imagining it through the eyes of a transit cop I would want as many less-than-lethal means at my disposal, so only a month of qual on a taser is surprising.

[Charrington]

Police opened fire on an unarmed couple during a routine traffic stop late Tuesday night because one officer "thought he was shot," a high-ranking Salinas Police Department official said Thursday.
Advertisement

"He saw what he perceived as a threat and thought he was shot, and based on that both officers discharged their firearms," said Dino Bardoni, commander of investigations.

http://thecalifornian.com/article/20090206/NEWS01/902060302/1002

[darighaz]

thought he was shot

Jesus.

Californian cops are retarded.

[Roxie]

Officer Johannes Mehserle will be standing trial for murder in the Oscar Grant case (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=%2Fc%2Fa%2F2009%2F06%2F04%2FBARA1812 5K.DTL&tsp=1)

Johannes Mehserle is set to be arraigned June 18 for murd...

(06-04) 15:12 PDT OAKLAND -- Former BART police Officer Johannes Mehserle was ordered Thursday to stand trial for murder by a judge who told him he didn't believe the explanation defense attorneys gave for his killing of an unarmed passenger.

After listening to seven days of testimony, Judge C. Don Clay concluded that Mehserle hadn't gotten his stun gun and his service pistol mixed up when he shot Oscar Grant in the back at the Fruitvale Station in Oakland early New Year's Day.

"There's no doubt in my mind," Clay said at the close of the former officer's preliminary hearing in Oakland, "that Mr. Mehserle intended to shoot Oscar Grant with a gun and not a Taser."

The decision set up the first murder trial of a California peace officer for a line-of-duty killing in nearly 15 years. It prompted sobs of relief from Grant's family members, who spoke of having a sense of justice restored.

"This is going to be huge for people of color," Cephus Johnson, Grant's uncle, said outside court. "The community lacks faith in the judicial system when it comes to police officers."
Racial overtones

Mehserle, who is white, was not accused by prosecutors or Grant's family of a racial motive in the shooting of Grant, a 22-year-old African American who lived in Hayward and worked at an Oakland supermarket.

But the outcry over Grant's death had racial overtones, with some African American leaders complaining that police officers often avoided consequences after brutalizing black people.

Mehserle, 27, showed little reaction as Clay made his ruling in Alameda County Superior Court. But earlier in the day, as Clay pushed defense attorneys to wrap up their case, Mehserle's father reacted angrily and suggested the hearing had been unfair.

"No justice in Oakland," said Todd Mehserle, a Napa resident, loud enough for reporters who were in court to hear. "They want to see what they want to see. This town is a sham."
Seven days of testimony

During the preliminary hearing, Clay heard prosecutor David Stein and defense attorney Michael Rains spar over whether Grant had resisted arrest, whether he had his hands behind his back when he was shot and whether the train platform had been chaotic and scary for officers.

One crucial point of disagreement was whether Mehserle acted like a man who had accidentally fired a gun.

Rains, who argued that Mehserle lacked the malice necessary for a murder charge, said in his closing remarks that the officer had intended to stun Grant with a Taser after thinking that he saw Grant reach for a gun.

Mehserle announced to a second officer, "I'm going to Tase him," Rains said, and then blurted out "Oh s-" after firing his pistol.

"We have an intent to tase," Rains said.

But Stein referred to his last witness on Thursday, BART police Officer Terry Foreman, who spent more than five hours with Mehserle after the shooting and spoke to his friend and colleague in subsequent days.
No talk of Taser

Foreman testified that Mehserle, at times crying, had talked about the shooting - saying, "I thought he had a gun," and, "He was going for his pocket" - but had never once said he meant to fire his Taser.

Stein said Mehserle had also never mentioned his Taser while on the platform.

"Human nature tells us that not only would (Mehserle) have acted differently on the platform, I don't think you would have been able to shut him up," Stein said. "I think he would have said repeatedly, to anyone who would listen, 'Oh my God, I made a mistake.' "

In the end, the judge said Mehserle's state of mind remained a mystery because the officer had never spoken to investigators and hadn't taken the stand at the hearing. Clay said he had never heard of an officer-involved shooting in which the officer never made a statement.

Mehserle resigned rather than talk to BART police internal affairs investigators.
Range of possibilities

Clay said Mehserle's apparently stunned reaction after the shooting could have indicated many things - including that the officer couldn't believe he had shot an unarmed man in front of hundreds of witnesses.

The judge said earlier in the day that Mehserle's statement to other officers that he thought Grant had a gun "changes the dynamics."

"It's deadly force against deadly force," Clay said. "That might be his mind-set."

As for the Taser explanation, the judge noted that testimony showed Mehserle had held his weapon with both hands, whereas the right-handed officer had been taught to hold a stun gun with his left hand.

Clay also said Grant and four friends who were detained with him at the station for allegedly fighting on a Dublin-Pleasanton train "did nothing to justify the use of deadly force."
Officer's confrontation

Stein played video footage Thursday that called into question the actions of the officer who detained Grant and made the decision to arrest him for allegedly obstructing police.

The officer, Tony Pirone, testified earlier that Grant had belittled him for being a transit officer and called him a profane name.

Stein's video clip appeared to show Pirone mocking Grant before his arrest by leaning in near his face and shouting the same profanities back at him. Then, when Grant is forced to the ground, someone can be heard shouting, "Yeah!"

Stein said it was Pirone, though the officer said he didn't remember.

"I don't know why I would say that," Pirone said of the exchange. "That's not language I would normally use."

The defense also presented key evidence Thursday after calling a video expert to the stand.

The expert said prosecutors' assertion that Grant had his hands behind his back when he was shot was wrong. He showed an image that he said captured the exact moment of the shot; Grant's left hand appeared to be in the air and moving toward his back.

But Clay cut short the testimony, saying he didn't need expert help to understand the footage.

Mehserle remains free on $3 million bail. He was ordered to return to court June 18 to be arraigned.

E-mail Demian Bulwa at dbulwa@sfchronicle.com.

[Urameshi YuSooKey]

How the hell did he make $3 million bail?

[SoulPlay]

Bail is usually one percent of the actual bail posted. So a 3 million dollar bail is 30,000 dollars actually. AFAIK.

[Roxie]

I thought it was usually 10%?

[CNagy]

The percentage is set by the bail bond agency, and I believe the normal rate is 10%. As a former cop, he might have friends who would give him a cut rate. Can't really say for certain.

[geesehoward4life]

Thanks for the update Roxie. Not shocked that he posted bail and I figured the fact that he quit instead of going to the Bart hearing, bit him in the butt. I did find the almost... prove it to me-parts early on in the article... interesting. As if Blacks have not been brutalized by some of the very same police officers that are supposed to protect the community. It's gonna be interesting to see how this plays out, it has pretty much disappeared from the news here in the Philadelphia area.