Israel slaughters over 200 in gaza, many of them children

[Karthak]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801662.stm
http://israelitybites.blogspot.com/2008/12/gaza-bleeds-under-israeli-airstrikes.html

Could someone explain to me why it's completely unacceptable that a single israeli is killed by a rocket strike, but apparently it's ok for israel to murder over 200?

Also, why the hell is the Israeli government saying they are doing this to protect their people? All this will do is deepen the hate of israelis and strangle the peace process for another generation. Those palestinians calling for peace will be shunned, and Hezbollah will probably find some way to profit from this too.

I'm tired of seeing this stupid conflict prolonged because of trigger-happy morons of both sides.

[Jetsetlemming]

It was not "many of them children", that's extrapolated from a throwaway line in the original reports that the bombing started "as school let out".

Sounds like SOMEONE is an anti-semite.



Goddamn Europeans.

[Karthak]

It was not "many of them children", that's extrapolated from a throwaway line in the original reports that the bombing started "as school let out".

Sounds like SOMEONE is an anti-semite.



Goddamn Europeans.
My fater is ethnically jewish and my grandmother lost her parents in the concentration camps. She and her sister only survived because her parents knew farmers who hid them during the Nazi occupation of the Netherlands.

There is a difference between being an anti-semite and not liking the state of Israel.

[Karthak]

And I would just like to add an article here published by an Israeli paper that I agree with completely.http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050459.html

[Plekto]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket

These are not modern rockets, like the press makes it seem. They are basically a pipe filled with a propellant and sometimes a small but nearly useless "warhead". Basically a flying short range pipe bomb.(3-10km max range? Most are only good for a few blocks or barely make it past the DMZs)

If you've seen that show on Mythbusters about Civil War rockets, that's exactly what these things are. A pipe with a nozzle fitted at one end and some fins to kind of guide it. It's nothing like, say, a modern rocket or missile.

But if the press was saying "Palestinians launched 10 mortars rounds at Israel, injuring 4 people", you'd get a more normal reaction to Israel's violence. It's completely lopsided.

**(from Wikipedia - bit dated stats, though)**
As of May 2008, over 3,000 rockets had been launched[3] and 15 people have been killed by Qassam rockets.

That's very close to worthless as an actual weapon.

[Vincent]

... No other country on the planet would endure as much as Israel has. How many decades of purposeful suicide bombings and attacks on your civilians must you tolerate before you decide to start fucking shit up with bombs? If the United States was being shelled or had rockets blasted into its cities by Mexico or Canada, guess what would happen post haste? America would majorly fuck up whoever was doing the launching. It's the same situation, except Israel backs off every time they fuck the Arabs up because of International pressure and antisemitism. Besides the fact that Israel is trying its best to target Hamas personnel and materiel, and your initial article was most likely written by a crazy anti-semite. ...

rather than the offending graphic - Sparky

[Charrington]

The only way Arabs learn to stop killing Jews is for the Jews to kill lots more Arabs. Israel has tried everything else: truces, giving up land, offering autonomy to Gaza. Nothing has worked. Egypt was the first Arab country to make peace with Israel, why you ask? Because Israel fucked up Egypt multiple times. Yassir Arafat had his chance with the so called Palestinians and he of course fucked it up. Hamas says in its charter that their mission is to wipe out the Jewish state. There is no difference between saying wipe out Israel and kill all Jews. Since 1948 every ape shit Arab and anti-semite has been trying to get rid of Israel.

No other country on the planet would endure as much as Israel has. How many decades of purposeful suicide bombings and attacks on your civilians must you tolerate before you decide to start fucking shit up with bombs? If the United States was being shelled or had rockets blasted into its cities by Mexico or Canada, guess what would happen post haste? America would majorly fuck up whoever was doing the launching. It's the same situation, except Israel backs off every time they fuck the Arabs up because of International pressure and antisemitism. Besides the fact that Israel is trying its best to target Hamas personnel and materiel, and your initial article was most likely written by a crazy anti-semite.

*addition*
The Arabs don't understand that terrorism is a way to achieve a political goal, it has no real military value. They don't understand that, they use terrorism to just kill a few more Jews. And until they realize that terrorism will not win them anything but getting bombed back to the stone age, then they need to be bombed back to the stone age.

There are around 15million Jews on Earth, why can't everyone else stop trying to fuck with them? They get a country after 2000 years and then fuck up all the Arabs that try to kill them and it just keeps on going in a sad downward spiral. They make a fucking desert a first world military power and the dumbass Arabs just won't get a clue. Its either, we got fucked up and recognize Israel, or Kill All Jews!

If that is true, then Israel will just have to fuck up another dozen countries and then they can live in peace.

Holy fucking shit you're dumb. There are so many things wrong with this you must be some kind of greedy, big nosed jew pig. I will break it down here because you obviously know nothing more of the situation than what you've seen on cable news. Israel was established on land stolen from the Palestinians. 70 years ago the area belong to arabs. After WW2 the hegemony countries decided it belonged to the jews. Since then, israel has invaded various countries and made egregious violations of international law. Hamas is to Israel as to American revolutionaries we to the British empire in the Revolutionary war. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. This has nothing to do with antisemitism. Israel shouldn't exist as a state because it's stolen land with the invading government oppressing a large section of the population. By the by, jews have been expelled from various kindoms and countries about every fifty years for the past 2300 years.

Also, you're also blatantly biased against arabs, but you will call me a racist for calling you a jew pig. Funny how that works huh? I'm not really anti-Semitic, I'm just doing this to piss you off, because you're an arrogant, close minded, racist, ignorant little shit sandwich drenched in shit sauce. I'd like to gag you with a piss soaked Palestinian scarf, and violently sodomize you with pages from the quran wrapped around my penis. obviously we'd do it though a hole in a sheet to make you comfortable.

[Plekto]

Vincent, there are a couple of problems with your analysis.

1: Every time Israel proposed a deal, they never actually followed through with it. In fact, it was the U.S. that tanked almost all of them. Lots of talk, but nothing actually is done.

2:Israel was given land that belonged to someone else, plain and simple. This has to be resolved. You can't just take several million people and wall them in. Israel's blockade of the sea is proof of this and honestly why I don't have any patience for them. Why the hell can't they use their own coastline? Oh - right - their being in control of their own fate and destiny is just an illusion in the press.

3:Israel's leadership can't seem to understand that more violence only breeds more of the same. There are several million people there and if they all decided to march at once on Israel, there would be nothing that they could do about it that wouldn't result in the place ending up like Beruit.

Just think for a second from their perspective. Of course there are mad. Starving and bombing them with planes isn't going to do anything except make them look for ways to retaliate. Is it wrong that a few of them are doing this? Sure. But Israel seems content to not work with the people in charge in Palestine to get these radicals under control. Not since it furthers their agenda. Watch - after this attack, Israel will expand a few settlements as a "security barrier".

The real plan is to take over an acre at a time until there isn't anything left. The government of Israel is just as evil and corrupt as any of the others in the region.

Your example of groups in Canada is also flawed because, let's say there were groups in Canada attacking U.S. targets. And the U.S. decided to carpet bomb Toronto and Quebec, and then invade and take over. Total overreaction that hurts the entire population. There's a reason Israel won't let journalists into Gaza. Because the conditions there are so horrendous that most Americans would lose their lunch just looking at it. Carter was absolutely correct in that the place has devolved into essentially a giant penal colony with Israel doing whatever the hell that they want.

But most of the people in the U.S. have no clue abut any of it. They watch CNN and Fox and it's all sanitized. "Those Palestinians are at it again!" "Israel retaliates against terrorists!" It's a lot more complex than that.

EDIT:
290 killed so far and over 600 injured. A couple of divisions of tanks and up to 10,000 soldiers are preparing for major ground invasion.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/12/28/gaza-sunday.html?ref=rss
Typical tactics. If you look at the videos on that site, you see enough in the background as well to realize that the entire region is basically a massive wad of decrepit and nearly falling apart cement structures and apartment blocks.

The leaders in Israel might have just got the war that they wanted. Too bad this will likely stand a good chance of getting Jordan, Syria, and even Egypt drawn into the fighting. Equating the entire population of Gaza as being equivalent to Hamas will tend to do that.

[Karthak]

I actually understand Israel can't just ignore those rockets Hamas is shooting over the border, but their reaction now is nothing but counterproductive. Israels invasion of Lebanon made Hezbollah stronger, and cost Israel politically around the world (a UN observer from my country was killed in an Israeli airstrike on a UN observation post. Mistake my left buttock). There is nothing to suggest that history won't repeat itself now.

[puzzo]

In a related note, how was everybody's hanukkah?
Heres hoping that they get to celebrate it next year too.

[stsparky]

I lived in the area Hezbollah torched 2 summers ago. I agree more with Vincent than anyone in this. This is a proxy battle between someone else that assholes elsewhere are provoking.

And Charrington is wrong. And wrong about his history. And I'm giving him 24 hours to clean up his response starting now.

There'd be a two state country now if Arafat wasn't such a greed head 10 years ago.

[Charrington]

I lived in the area Hezbollah torched 2 summers ago. I agree more with Vincent than anyone in this. This is a proxy battle between someone else that assholes elsewhere are provoking.

And Charrington is wrong. And wrong about his history. And I'm giving him 24 hours to clean up his response starting now.

There'd be a two state country now if Arafat wasn't such a greed head 10 years ago.

Or you'll do what, exactly? Are you part of the zog conspiracy trying to keep the truth from the people? Why don't you go ahead and point out what exact part of the history I'm wrong about? Short answer: You can't, and if you try your answer will be proven to be biased and inaccurate in short order. You living in Israel two years ago doesn't mean you know anything about the history of the area. Did you even visit an Arab area?

[stsparky]

Or you'll do what, exactly? Are you part of the zog conspiracy trying to keep the truth from the people? Why don't you go ahead and point out what exact part of the history I'm wrong about? Short answer: You can't, and if you try your answer will be proven to be biased and inaccurate in short order. You living in Israel two years ago doesn't mean you know anything about the history of the area. Did you even visit an Arab area?
Charrington? Learn to parse sentences better. The fires were 2 years ago. My visit was likely before you were born. As to being racist, that's unlikely. You've not read me ever using "Fighting Words" or making personal attacks.

Your history of the region is wrong. The so-called 'Palestinians' are as native to the region as the Europeans/Russian immigrants for one. While the livable areas East (Jordan) and North (Lebanon and Syria) were settled by established peoples centuries earlier- the area settled by the Zionists was unwanted swampland for two. And you're welcome to wonder why 'stateless people' have Egyptian papers for three. The Palestinians have been a favorite political football since the end of the First World War. I've seen 130 year old deeds issued by the Turks for the same property sold to three different parties. Only one was Jewish. And yes, I've been in Arab areas. The Israeli Arabs know to blame the Turks for the mess.

[Karthak]

I find it rather suspicious that Israel is holding elections soon. A cynical person might even think they invaded Gaza to give the current israeli government a "tough guy" image just in time for the election...

[stsparky]

A more cynical person would look at whether this was a ploy by the PLA to collapse the politically bankrupt HAMAS economically so they could reabsorb Gaza. But of course Arab on Arab violence never happens.

@Charrington: As a mod - I expect polite language. Get working on it.

[Karthak]

A more cynical person would look at whether this was a ploy by the PLA to collapse the politically bankrupt HAMAS economically so they could reabsorb Gaza. But of course Arab on Arab violence never happens.

@Charrington: As a mod - I expect polite language. Get working on it.
But how is this supposed to collapse Hamas? Hezbollah profited enormously from the 2006 war. The same will probably happen here, with Hamas gaining lots of recruits and sympathy. The israelis are bombing the most densely populated are in the world. That means lots of dead civilians, which means lots of people VERY angry at Israel. What the current death toll? almost 400 palestinians and 1 or 2 israelis?

[Charrington]

@Charrington: As a mod - I expect polite language. Get working on it.

Censoring myself under an attempt at intimidation is never going to happen. If you want to change it, do it yourself. It's quite within your range of ability.

Regarding your other post, the history of the region is really irrelevant. The issue is that Israel is targeting civilians, and have killed far many Palestinians civilians than vice versa, and hamas is being pegged as a terrorist organization by the west while the same countries support Israel financially and with training, arms, etc. I'm neutral as to which political entity gains control in the end, while you obviously support Israel. You are supporting terrorism de facto.

As far as the history goes, the conflict is thousands of years old, so obviously two random people on a forum aren't about to break any ground towards a solution.

[stsparky]

Please choose to be less of an asshole Charington. And go look at how the "terrorists" hide in among their people using them as shields.

I've pictures.

[Samurai_Pooh]

ugh, wow, really? another shitstorm in the middle east? and ISRAEL is somehow involved?

holy shit what are the odds

as always, israel is pwning on a massive scale. but they are spawn killing mostly so its totally rigged against the terrorists. now everybody is calling out israel for hacking international lawlz but the terrorists got first blood so its their fault, but really israel illegally downloaded arab maps and banning arabs from their servers in the first place so it makes me kind of omgwtf

^ sorry i've been playing a lot of first person shooters lately.

On a serious note, although the loss of civilians is a tragedy and heavy-handed, Sparky is right. The terrorists use human shields in the first place, so who is really to be blamed when they are killed?

[Hikoku-Y]

On a serious note, although the loss of civilians is a tragedy and heavy-handed, Sparky is right. The terrorists use human shields in the first place, so who is really to be blamed when they are killed?

Both sides are to blame here. What's so infuriating about this conflict is that I can't support either party at all. Hamas, the democratically-elected government of the Palestinians, decided that it was going to launch rockets into Israel with the goal of killing civilians and destroying infrastructure. That is not justifiable. Period.

Israel's response, however, is at least equally egregious. On the one hand, I'm sympathetic to the Israeli government saying, "OK, if you're going to elect into power leaders whose stated policy is to kill Israel civilians then we'll respond with a devastating attack on your elected government and infrastructure." The problem, of course, is that this results in hundreds of civilian deaths and there is no conceivable way that this round of Israeli devastation is going to lead to any semblance of peace. I cannot imagine any situation in which Israel killing so many Palestinians does not make things worse, resulting in more death. These attacks kill children and only reduce the chances of peace, so how is this morally justifiable? It's not.

And @ Charrington: the post that you've been asked to modify is disgusting. And your whining about "censorship" because you've been told that you can't describe in graphical detail how you'd like to rape another poster on this board is hilariously disingenuous.

[Eddie Echoplex]

It's just mindless slaughter in both sides. It's sad.

[stsparky]

It's just mindless slaughter in both sides. It's sad.
I wish it was. It sadder that some isolated uncaring Saudi 'genius' has calculated how many innocents to be gulled to their deaths either via money or faith to make their empty point about how the US and Israel hate "Palestinians."

[Karthak]

My goodness, it seems there actually is an american politician who won't mindlessly support Israel no matter what they do:http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/kucinich-criticizes-israel-wants-u.n.-probe-2008-12-29.html

Also, I find it hilarious that they are all blaming Hamas for the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. The blame for that falls on Israel, who hasn't allowed any food, power or medical supplies to enter the territory in anything approaching sufficient numbers.

[StormShadow]

Also, I find it hilarious that they are all blaming Hamas for the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. The blame for that falls on Israel, who hasn't allowed any food, power or medical supplies to enter the territory in anything approaching sufficient numbers.

Arms will be delivered to Hamas and other terrorist groups hidden among these aid supplies. What other recourse does Israel have than to restrict the movement of supplies which may contain the means to kill Israelis?

[StormShadow]

Regarding your other post, the history of the region is really irrelevant.
As far as the history goes, the conflict is thousands of years old, so obviously two random people on a forum aren't about to break any ground towards a solution.

Why are you going to say it is irrelevant when you were the first to bring it up? (Even if it was an incorrect retelling of the birth of Israel)

The issue is that Israel is targeting civilians, and have killed far many Palestinians civilians than vice versa, and hamas is being pegged as a terrorist organization by the west while the same countries support Israel financially and with training, arms, etc. I'm neutral as to which political entity gains control in the end, while you obviously support Israel. You are supporting terrorism de facto.

Israel is targeting civilians?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28404637/

"Medical officials put the total Palestinian death toll since Israel launched its offensive on Saturday as Gaza gunmen stepped up rocket fire, at 348 and more than 800 wounded. A United Nations agency said at least 62 of the dead were civilians. "

According to those numbers, only 17% of the dead are civilians. So either Israel isn't targeting civilians, or their aim really sucks.

[Harrison]

There'd be a two state country now if Arafat wasn't such a greed head 10 years ago.
And of course the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by a Zionist hardliner, followed by the election of Benjamin Netanyahu and Netanyahu's repudiation of the deal that Rabin had brokered with the Palestinians, had nothing to do with any of this.

Nothing to see here, move along, move along, and remember that Palestinians are always in the wrong and should all be slaughtered and their remains rendered into soap in order to protect the wholly innocent, pure, and good-smelling (due to regular bathing in Palestinian blood) Israelis.

[Karthak]

Arms will be delivered to Hamas and other terrorist groups hidden among these aid supplies. What other recourse does Israel have than to restrict the movement of supplies which may contain the means to kill Israelis?
And the only means they have of restricting this is collectively punishing every civilian living in Gaza?

[StormShadow]

And the only means they have of restricting this is collectively punishing every civilian living in Gaza?


Collective punishment? Israel delivers food, water, and medical supplies to Gaza, in addition to Gaza receiving money and aid from different charities.

If there is insufficient supplies for all the people of Gaza, perhaps they should look to Hamas as to why that is?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/952322.html

"At least 10 trucks with humanitarian aid sent to the Gaza Strip by the Jordanian Red Crescent Society were confiscated by Hamas police shortly after the trucks entered the territory on Thursday evening, according to aid officials in Jerusalem."

And lets not forget the the Fatah wasn't exactly looking out for the best interests of the people either.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0209/p01s01-wome.html

"In the wake of Hamas's parliamentary landslide, government embezzlement and graft have moved to the top of the Palestinian domestic agenda. This week, the Palestinian Authority's attorney general announced 50 investigations that account for about $700 million stolen from the government treasury. "

[StormShadow]

Here's another one,

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1196847271823&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

"The Palestinian Authority Health Ministry on Thursday accused Hamas of robbing fuel stockpiles in two hospitals in the Gaza Strip.

A statement published by the ministry claimed that Hamas had been stealing fuel from the European Hospital in the Strip for use in the group's operations.

"The fuel was supplied to hospitals in order to satisfy their needs, in wake of the blockade imposed on Gaza following Hamas's takeover," continued the statement.

For three days, Hamas has been preventing Gaza fuel companies from receiving fuel allocations sent from Ramallah. According to a Palestine Press news agency report, Hamas was stealing fuel and medical supplies sent from the PA Health Ministry in Ramallah to Gaza hospitals.

Reportedly, Hamas had been using the fuel for cars belonging to senior group officials and the medical equipment was being transferred to hospitals under Hamas control. "

[stsparky]

And of course the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by a Zionist hardliner, followed by the election of Benjamin Netanyahu and Netanyahu's repudiation of the deal that Rabin had brokered with the Palestinians, had nothing to do with any of this.I was talking about what Ehud Barak offered. But it seems that when offered peace over conflict — the PLA chose to continue fighting. IMO Rabin's assassin Amir was a religious right wing nutjob who'd I argue isn't actually a Zionist.
Nothing to see here, move along, move along, and remember that Palestinians are always in the wrong and should all be slaughtered and their remains rendered into soap in order to protect the wholly innocent, pure, and good-smelling (due to regular bathing in Palestinian blood) Israelis.Yeah - right. Ponder what would happen if Israel didn't react to the rocket attack that killed a mom. Remember the Israeli Defense Force aimed to kill terrorists. Israel's attack aircraft have accomplished that part of the mission. It's reported 300 terrorist dead have been reported in Gaza, while the propaganda-savvy information office of Hamas stated that 20 civilians died. It is Hamas who locates its' command sites, arsenals and training facilities in heavily populated areas, the results suggest that the IDF - supported by first-rate intelligence work - may have executed the most accurate wave of airstrikes in history, with a 15-to-1 terrorist-to-civilian kill ratio. (paraphrasing Ralph Peters (http://www.nypost.com/seven/12292008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/damned_if_they_do_146263.htm))
Did Israel Use “Disproportionate Force” in Gaza? (http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=1&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=378&PID=0&IID=2808&TTL=Did_Israel_Use_%E2%80%9CDisproportionate_Force %E2%80%9D_in_Gaza?)
“... What was critical from the standpoint of international law was that if the attempt had been made "to minimize civilian damage, then even a strike that causes large amounts of damage - but is directed at a target with very large military value - would be lawful." Numbers matter less than the purpose of the use of force. Israel has argued that it is specifically targeting facilities serving the Hamas regime and its determined effort to continue its rocket assault on Israel: headquarters, training bases, weapons depots, command and control networks, and weapons-smuggling tunnels. This way Israel is respecting the international legal concept of proportionality.
Alternatively, disproportionality would occur if the military sought to attack even if the value of a target selected was minimal in comparison with the enormous risk of civilian collateral damage. This point was made by Luis Moreno-Ocampo, the Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, on February 9, 2006, in analyzing the Iraq War. He explained that international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court "permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks [emphasis added] against military objectives, even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur." The attack becomes a war crime when it is directed against civilians (which is precisely what Hamas does) or when "the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage." In fact, Israeli legal experts right up the chain of command within the IDF make this calculation before all military operations of this sort. ...
Is There Proportionality Against Military Forces?
And in fighting counterinsurgency wars, most armies seek to achieve military victory by defeating the military capacity of an adversary, as efficiently as possible. There clearly is no international expectation that military losses in war should be on a one-to-one basis; most armies seek to decisively eliminate as many enemy forces as possible while minimizing their own losses of troops. There are NATO members who have been critical of "Israel's disproportionate use of force," while NATO armies take pride in their "kill ratios" against the Taliban in Afghanistan. Moreover, decisive military action against an aggressor has another effect: it increases deterrence. To expect Israel to hold back in its use of decisive force against legitimate military targets in Gaza is to condemn it to a long war of attrition with Hamas.
The loss of any civilian lives is truly regrettable. Israel has cancelled many military operations because of its concern with civilian casualties. But should civilian losses occur despite the best efforts of Israel to avoid them, it is ultimately not Israel's responsibility. As political philosopher Michael Walzer noted in 2006:
"When Palestinian militants launch rocket attacks from civilian areas, they are themselves responsible - and no one else is - for the civilian deaths caused by Israeli counterfire."
International critics of Israel may be looking to craft balanced statements that spread the blame for the present conflict to both sides. But they would be better served if they did not engage in this artificial exercise, and clearly distinguish the side that is the aggressor in this conflict - Hamas - and the side that is trying to defeat the aggression - Israel. ”
Israel is not the bad guy for stopping attacks against its people. And if Hamas were true defenders of the "Palestinians" - it would not hide among the people it claims to champion.

[Charrington]

I was talking about what Ehud Barak offered. But it seems that when offered peace over conflict — the PLA chose to continue fighting. IMO Rabin's assassin Amir was a religious right wing nutjob who'd I argue isn't actually a Zionist.
Yeah - right. Ponder what would happen if Israel didn't react to the rocket attack that killed a mom. Remember the Israeli Defense Force aimed to kill terrorists. Israel's attack aircraft have accomplished that part of the mission. It's reported 300 terrorist dead have been reported in Gaza, while the propaganda-savvy information office of Hamas stated that 20 civilians died. It is Hamas who locates its' command sites, arsenals and training facilities in heavily populated areas, the results suggest that the IDF - supported by first-rate intelligence work - may have executed the most accurate wave of airstrikes in history, with a 15-to-1 terrorist-to-civilian kill ratio. (paraphrasing Ralph Peters (http://www.nypost.com/seven/12292008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/damned_if_they_do_146263.htm))

Israel is not the bad guy for stopping attacks against its people. And if Hamas were true defenders of the "Palestinians" - it would not hide among the people it claims to champion.

So basically you choose to believe the people bombing the civilians, over the government of the people who are actually there. By the way, the ny post article you linked is an opinion[/B] page written and the other is from the Jerusalem center for public affairs. Could you get a more biased link?

By the way, how do you hide among the citizens during an airstrike? Particularly when the airstrike targets hospitals and police stations.

You're very obviously biased on the matter and your opinions on it are utterly invalid.

[stsparky]

Do you doubt Hamas is a terrorist organization? And yes I'm biased. Doesn't make my opinion invalid though.

[StormShadow]

So basically you choose to believe the people bombing the civilians, over the government of the people who are actually there.


It's in that "governments" best interest to say whatever needs to be said to stop them from having their asses totally handed to them. If they create false claims that Israel is targeting civilians, this will create international pressure for Israel to stop.

However, as I posted before, only about 18% of the deaths so far have been to civilians. Doesn't really sound like they are specifically being targeted.

[Charrington]

It's in that "governments" best interest to say whatever needs to be said to stop them from having their asses totally handed to them. If they create false claims that Israel is targeting civilians, this will create international pressure for Israel to stop.

However, as I posted before, only about 18% of the deaths so far have been to civilians. Doesn't really sound like they are specifically being targeted.

I'm sure it's all an arab conspiracy. All of the humanitarian aid workers including Carter, Kofi Annan and Mandela's wife are totally in on it. Everyone is conspiring against the jews! And what exactly do you mean by ""government""?

Do you doubt Hamas is a terrorist organization? And yes I'm biased. Doesn't make my opinion invalid though.

Do you doubt Israel is? And yes, it does make your opinion invalid because you're not capable of seeing reality.

You two are essentially the same as the neo-nazis who believe that satanic jews control the media and banks and are spreading race mixing propaganda so as to denigrate other ethnicities as to make it easier for them to enslave the non jewish world. At the core, there is essentially no difference between you.

[Plekto]

Collective punishment? Israel delivers food, water, and medical supplies to Gaza, in addition to Gaza receiving money and aid from different charities.

If there is insufficient supplies for all the people of Gaza, perhaps they should look to Hamas as to why that is?

It's called a naval blockade. They have miles of coastline that they can't use to import or export anything. The rest is all walled off. Israel barely gives them enough food, water, and medical supplies to keep from dying off in some massive plague. I suspect that this is part of their goal as well.

In today's news:
Israel Rams Activist Boat Carrying Aid to Gaza

Meanwhile, the Free Gaza Movement said one of its boats, the Dignity, was rammed by Israeli gunboats in international waters. Activists with the Free Gaza Movement are attempting to sail to Gaza with over three tons of medical supplies requested by Palestinian doctors. Passengers include former Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney.

[xanth]

Do you doubt Israel is? And yes, it does make your opinion invalid because you're not capable of seeing reality.



I'm only getting involved in this to say that by your logic, you're not capable of "seeing reality" either.

No one is objective. To suggest you are, when you obviously care passionately and only about the Palestinian POV, shows that you're an idiot. Moreso, you're an embarrassment to your side when your arguments are nothing but generally flinging insults and "OMG" threats of sexual assault like in your first post. That's how four year olds and/or trolls argue.

If you're actually on the side of the Palestinians, seems like you could learn a thing or two about arguing from Plekto. If you're just a troll, well then, keep on trying to get banned.

[Charrington]

I'm only getting involved in this to say that by your logic, you're not capable of "seeing reality" either.

No one is objective. To suggest you are, when you obviously care passionately and only about the Palestinian POV, shows that you're an idiot. Moreso, you're an embarrassment to your side when your arguments are nothing but generally flinging insults and "OMG" threats of sexual assault like in your first post. That's how four year olds and/or trolls argue.

If you're actually on the side of the Palestinians, seems like you could learn a thing or two about arguing from Plekto. If you're just a troll, well then, keep on trying to get banned.

No. Just no. You obviously have the mental capacity of a child, easily distracted by a few vulgarities. If you'll brush up on your reading comprehension you'll see that I stated I'm neutral on the issue and don't find one side better than the other. I plainly stated that my issue here is that Israel is being praised while Hamas is being pegged as terrorists, for doing the same thing, yet Israel is doing it to a far more severe degree. You should also try learning the difference between a threat and a musing, you obviously lack a basic grasp on the English language to mistake my statement as the former. You also contradicted yourself, claiming I'm a troll/four year old while criticizing me for using insults.

Try sticking to something on your own level, like discussing kawaii desu ne anime or whatever it is you think you're good at (You're not but it's apparently important for you to have such illusions).

Alles klar, Herr Kommissar?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7805386.stm

Israel cuts off any useful flow of medical supplies into Gaza and then bombs civilians. Hmm. You'd think Jews of all people would have a bit of hesitance towards a war of attrition.

[xanth]

No. Just no. You obviously have the mental capacity of a child, easily distracted by a few vulgarities. If you'll brush up on your reading comprehension you'll see that I stated I'm neutral on the issue and don't find one side better than the other. I plainly stated that my issue here is that Israel is being praised while Hamas is being pegged as terrorists, for doing the same thing, yet Israel is doing it to a far more severe degree. You should also try learning the difference between a threat and a musing, you obviously lack a basic grasp on the English language to mistake my statement as the former. You also contradicted yourself, claiming I'm a troll/four year old while criticizing me for using insults.

Try sticking to something on your own level, like discussing kawaii desu ne anime or whatever it is you think you're good at (You're not but it's apparently important for you to have such illusions).

Alles klar, Herr Kommissar?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7805386.stm

Israel cuts off any useful flow of medical supplies into Gaza and then bombs civilians. Hmm. You'd think Jews of all people would have a bit of hesitance towards a war of attrition.

I wasn't insulting you personally. I don't know you as a person. Just suggesting that your argument is flawed, and poorly argued.

By stating that the argument is unbalanced and that justice demands you to rectify that situation, you're being subjective. The only way to be objective on this issue would be a complete and total mastery of both sides of the issue, and ONLY both sides of the issue, lest you be influenced by any one of a number of factors such as background, news exposure, environment, development, economics, etc.

You are not unbiased. All sources of information, including ones you cite run a risk of bias because they written/created by others with intentional or unintentional bias.

/Thank you sir.
//May I have another?

[Charrington]

I wasn't insulting you personally. I don't know you as a person. Just suggesting that your argument is flawed, and poorly argued.

By stating that the argument is unbalanced and that justice demands you to rectify that situation, you're being subjective. The only way to be objective on this issue would be a complete and total mastery of both sides of the issue, and ONLY both sides of the issue, lest you be influenced by any one of a number of factors such as background, news exposure, environment, development, economics, etc.

You are not unbiased. All sources of information, including ones you cite run a risk of bias because they written/created by others with intentional or unintentional bias.

/Thank you sir.
//May I have another?

Your level of civility is making me deeply uncomfortable. I am not interested in complete mastery of the issue. Shit that happened millenniums ago is of little interest to me in this situation. None of what you listed are affecting me, as I take anything reported by the media at face value, I consider both the Palestinians and Israelis to be backwards barbarians, basically Tusken raiders, I could care less if a nuke was dropped on the entire region. If people can't manage a civilized society this late in the game they've obviously failed. I also hold a strong contempt for any religion. The arab-jew situation exposes the worst of human nature and makes a completely totalitarian government seem almost desirable.

Regardless of whatever my bias may be, both sides have agreed on some basic facts. Israel has killed 600+ Palestinians, Palestine has killed 4 Israelis. Both sides are targeting the other near indiscriminately, and this is evidenced by both of their respective histories of killing civilians. Eliminate the history of the region for a minute and what you've got is ethnoreligious warfare, almost genocide, being condoned and perpetrated by governments that proclaim to be the standard bearers of peace, justice, equality, liberty etc.

[stsparky]

... Israel has killed 600+ Palestinians, Palestine has killed 4 Israelis. ...
I'm so happy you're cool with dead Jews. I call bullshit on your facts. Most new sources say 309. NPR & the BBC has Gaza claiming 370 but it is in the terrorists' best interests to lie. The other claim was 15 were civilians on the terrorist side. Now up to 62. Let's average that and approximate 38. So I say 38 dead "Palestinian civilians" for 4 dead Israelis should bring Hamas to the negotiation table. But they're an elected minority that usurped total power from Fatah. Not the same as being elected. And they don't care if their own trapped populace die. Their coup more than a year ago frightened moderates to flee to the West Bank. They want to kill my co-religionists and drive us to the sea to die. I wish them ill on that. And gosh - Egypt doesn't want them. Their Arab brethren would rather let them die. BBC has video. Wonder why?

"In order for the violence to stop, Hamas must stop firing rockets into Israel and agree to respect a sustainable and durable ceasefire."

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45334000/gif/_45334984_gaza_strip_dec08_466_update5.gif
1. Ashdod: First attack so far north, Sunday. Woman killed in second rocket attack, Tuesday
2. Ashkelon: One man killed, several injured in rocket attack, Monday
3. Sderot: rocket attacks
4. Nevitot: One man killed, several injured in rocket attack, Saturday
5. Civilian family reported killed in attack on Yabna refugee camp, Sunday
6. Israeli warplanes strike tunnels under Gaza/Egypt border, Sunday
7. Three brothers reported killed in attack on Rafah, Sunday
8. Khan Younis: Four members of Islamic Jihad and a child reported killed, Sunday. Security officer killed in air strike on Hamas police station, Tuesday
9. Deir al-Balah: Palestinians injured, houses and buildings destroyed, Sunday
10. Tel al-Hawa - Interior ministry and Islamic University badly damaged, Monday. At least three buildings in ministry compound hit, Tuesday
11. Gaza City port: naval vessels targeted, Sunday
12. Shati refugee camp: Home of Hamas leader Ismail Haniya targeted, Monday
13. Intelligence building attacked, Sunday
14. Jebaliya refugee camp: several people killed in attack on mosque, Sunday 15. Beit Hanoun - two girls killed in air strike, Tuesday
16. Israeli soldier killed at unspecified military base near Nahal Oz border crossing - five other soldiers wounded in same rocket attack, Monday night.

[Jetsetlemming]

So basically you choose to believe the people bombing the civilians, over the government of the people who are actually there.
What do you mean "over the government"? As stated earlier, they killed 300 people, with a few dozen civilians among them. Either they were very bad at hitting their intended targets and just so happened to blow up a bunch of Hamas soldiers and terrorists, or they were in fact hitting aggressors who were hiding themselves among civilians with a remarkably low non-aggressor kill count for the situation. I know you want to assume the worst about Israel, but the latter concept makes just a tiny bit more sense than the former.

[Charrington]

I'm so happy you're cool with dead Jews. I call bullshit on your facts. Most new sources say 309. NPR & the BBC has Gaza claiming 370 but it is in the terrorists' best interests to lie. The other claim was 15 were civilians on the terrorist side. Now up to 62. Let's average that and approximate 38. So I say 38 dead "Palestinian civilians" for 4 dead Israelis should bring Hamas to the negotiation table. But they're an elected minority that usurped total power from Fatah. Not the same as being elected. And they don't care if their own trapped populace die. Their coup more than a year ago frightened moderates to flee to the West Bank. They want to kill my co-religionists and drive us to the sea to die. I wish them ill on that. And gosh - Egypt doesn't want them. Their Arab brethren would rather let them die. BBC has video. Wonder why?

"In order for the violence to stop, Hamas must stop firing rockets into Israel and agree to respect a sustainable and durable ceasefire."

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45334000/gif/_45334984_gaza_strip_dec08_466_update5.gif
1. Ashdod: First attack so far north, Sunday. Woman killed in second rocket attack, Tuesday
2. Ashkelon: One man killed, several injured in rocket attack, Monday
3. Sderot: rocket attacks
4. Nevitot: One man killed, several injured in rocket attack, Saturday
5. Civilian family reported killed in attack on Yabna refugee camp, Sunday
6. Israeli warplanes strike tunnels under Gaza/Egypt border, Sunday
7. Three brothers reported killed in attack on Rafah, Sunday
8. Khan Younis: Four members of Islamic Jihad and a child reported killed, Sunday. Security officer killed in air strike on Hamas police station, Tuesday
9. Deir al-Balah: Palestinians injured, houses and buildings destroyed, Sunday
10. Tel al-Hawa - Interior ministry and Islamic University badly damaged, Monday. At least three buildings in ministry compound hit, Tuesday
11. Gaza City port: naval vessels targeted, Sunday
12. Shati refugee camp: Home of Hamas leader Ismail Haniya targeted, Monday
13. Intelligence building attacked, Sunday
14. Jebaliya refugee camp: several people killed in attack on mosque, Sunday 15. Beit Hanoun - two girls killed in air strike, Tuesday
16. Israeli soldier killed at unspecified military base near Nahal Oz border crossing - five other soldiers wounded in same rocket attack, Monday night.

So basically you support Israel killing civilians to extort Hamas into negotiating. That's all that needs to be said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7805558.stm

Israel rejected a truce, how surprising. Get over your victim complex, Israel are the nazis in this situation and arabs are the jews.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jU4abbllwzNEyEC-kg7Wtd5RZrow

25% of the dead were civilians.

Israel killed at least 900 civilians in the 2006 Lebanon war.

They may not be targeting civilians (lol) but they definitely aren't going out of their way not to.

[stsparky]

Fog of war: there's inaccurate information right now. Israel has no other option as Hamas won't stop shooting rockets. The war stops when Hamas stops or they're out of victims/civilians to exploit. 1 out of 15 being civilians is not so bad - it's better than what the USA does. I'm not reading about wedding parties in Gaza being bombed. I love how in your world view the Egyptians' actions are ignored. Shame being that most of the older "Palestinians" have Egyptian documents.

You label Israel wrongly and forget how "friendly" the Arabs are to their own.

[Charrington]

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/2735/1230468575873lm3.gif

Fog of war: there's inaccurate information right now. Israel has no other option as Hamas won't stop shooting rockets.

According to you the "fog of war" only applies when it makes Israel look bad. Israel has a ton of options, among them to stop occupying Palestine and and stop treating Arabs like third class citizens. People don't just randomly pick an ethnic group to hate and then sacrifice their lives to make qa symbolic strike against them.

The war stops when Hamas stops or they're out of victims/civilians to exploit. 1 out of 15 being civilians is not so bad - it's better than what the USA does.

There are enough jews left for there to be a jewish state. We should give hitler a posthumous medal, right? It's no where near better than what the US does, it's the same thing on a smaller scale. Since when does it one thing being less severe than the other make it alright? Good logic there buddy.

I love how in your world view the Egyptians' actions are ignored.

It's a good thing Egypt is bombing Israel right now, right? I mean, this is like, totally relevant.

Shame being that most of the older "Palestinians" have Egyptian documents.

What the fuck do you keep harping on about this for? Chinese citizens seek foreign passports to keep their government from "reeducating" them, it's the same principle.

You label Israel wrongly and forget how "friendly" the Arabs are to their own.

Here it is again, some arabs kill people so it's totally alright for Israel to kill civilians.

[stsparky]

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/2735/1230468575873lm3.gif ...
Here it is again, some arabs kill people so it's totally alright for Israel to kill civilians.

I refer to Syrian Arabs killing 16,000 Lebanese Arabs and Christians, but you can overlook that if you want. Us Americans have killed more innocents than that in Iraq. And we don't have a real excuse. Whereas Israel is defending itself from terrorists who run Gaza. They want my people dead. So yeah - cry me a river. 5 days and less than 400 dead. And only a handful of dead 'civilians' - I'm not worried about people who voluntarily shield rocketeers and snipers. They know the risks, and they want bleeding heart simps like you stop justice from being done to those who started this war. Of course, the real instigators are the Saudis who act like puppeteers using their pocket change.

The Gaza Strip innocents who would like to escape via Egypt can't ... explain why?

[Charrington]

I refer to Syrian Arabs killing 16,000 Lebanese Arabs and Christians, but you can overlook that if you want.

And what does this have to do with Israel killing Palestinian civilians?

Us Americans have killed more innocents than that in Iraq.

And what does this have to do with Israel killing Palestinian civilians?

Whereas Israel is defending itself from terrorists who run Gaza. They want my people dead.

Terrorist is a very flexible word. Palestine is being occupied by an invading army and are striking back against the invaders. Do you consider the American guerrillas in the revolutionary war to be terrorists? Surely in your mind the Greeks, Roman, Mongols, Germans, Dutch, Portuguese, Spanish, British, Japanese etc ad infinitum raped and killed foreigners to protect their own citizens.

5 days and less than 400 dead. And only a handful of dead 'civilians' - I'm not worried about people who voluntarily shield rocketeers and snipers.

Because Hamas represents all Arabs. How would you like it if I told you you're an evil, manipulative, greedy, fat, whiny, big nosed, beady eyed, cheap kike? This is basically what you just said of Arabs. Don't jump down my throat, you introduced racism into the conversation.

They know the risks, and they want bleeding heart simps like you stop justice from being done to those who started this war.

It's only a war when Israel is killing the civilians, huh? When an Arab kills a Jew it's always terrorism. No exceptions.

Of course, the real instigators are the Saudis who act like puppeteers using their pocket change.

It's a good thing Israel is bombing Saudi Arabia then.

The Gaza Strip innocents who would like to escape via Egypt can't ... explain why?

Why don't you explain why they should? They have just as much, if not more right to the land as the Jews. No real man is going to run out of the neighborhood when his neighbor sets fire to his house.

[stsparky]

And what does this have to do with Israel killing Palestinian civilians?
You deny humanity to the Israeli innocents and grant it to those who willingly shield rocketeers? Double standard works both ways it seems. I hope the gulled populace would force Hamas to stop putting them at risk. But they seem they want to die. You can see hate crazed morons cheering their "brave" drugged brainwashed sniper heroes by encircling them.
And what does this have to do with Israel killing Palestinian civilians?Everything. Maybe they'll be shocked out of their brainwashing. And am unsure of where the civilians are here? Gaza is an armed camp where militants have smuggled in rockets during the last truce period. Way to work for peace.
Terrorist is a very flexible word. Palestine is being occupied by an invading army and are striking back against the invaders. Do you consider the American guerrillas in the revolutionary war to be terrorists? Surely in your mind the Greeks, Roman, Mongols, Germans, Dutch, Portuguese, Spanish, British, Japanese etc ad infinitum raped and killed foreigners to protect their own citizens.
BS. It is precise. You define terrorists by their actions. Try again. And trust me Hamas would gleefully put a bullet in your head as soon as you're done being their apologist.
Because Hamas represents all Arabs. How would you like it if I told you you're an evil, manipulative, greedy, fat, whiny, big nosed, beady eyed, cheap kike? This is basically what you just said of Arabs. Don't jump down my throat, you introduced racism into the conversation.
It's fighting words. And I'm a generous Jew who built nice modern housing for Israeli Arab kids. I help. You introduced the fighting words by attacking Vincent and me. Everyone can see what you're doing here. So don't cry if you end up banned. And I've been an Arab loon's sniper target when he was shooting up a kindergarten. And I've never said Hamas represent all Arabs. Just that Arabs happily kill thousand more fellow Arabs and the media remains silent not daring to affront the countries' who benefit from grabbing resources.
It's only a war when Israel is killing the civilians, huh? When an Arab kills a Jew it's always terrorism. No exceptions.
The bombing of military targets is a response to indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli Arabs and Jews.
It's a good thing Israel is bombing Saudi Arabia then.
Way to miss the bigger picture. And with luck - Hamas leadership should be out of the picture in a week.
Why don't you explain why they should? They have just as much, if not more right to the land as the Jews. No real man is going to run out of the neighborhood when his neighbor sets fire to his house.
The few trapped moderates want to escape the carnage Hamas invited upon Gaza; Egypt won't let them out. You remain clueless as to why.

[Charrington]

You deny humanity to the Israeli innocents and grant it to those who willingly shield rocketeers? Double standard works both ways it seems. I hope the gulled populace would force Hamas to stop putting them at risk. But they seem they want to die.

Except Israel isn't deploying marksmen to the border to take out "rocketeers", they're indiscriminately bombing civilian infrastructure. Where did I deny humanity to israelis(Nature did a decent job of that already by making them semites lol)? I don't consider this an ethnic conflict like you, I have a problem with the terrorists governments. If you actually read my posts you'd see I could care less if the entire area was turned into pretty black glass.

You can see hate crazed morons cheering their "brave" drugged brainwashed sniper heroes by encircling them.

No, this is what you saw on CNN. Hamas has a 17 percent approval rating in Gaza. Those stupid 83% towelheads obv deserve to die because of the other 17 percent though, right? Let's completely forget that Hamas provides schools, police forces, hospitals etc to the civilians. People don't support them because they provide vital infrastructure that israel bombs and blocks, everyone's just totally out to get the jews.

BS. It is precise. You define terrorists by their actions. Try again. And trust me Hamas would gleefully put a bullet in your head as soon as you're done being their apologist.

No, normal people define terrorists by their actions. You're defining terrorism by skin color and religion. Israel is killing civilians to gain compliance, this is terrorism as much as Hamas' actions are.

It's fighting words. And I'm a generous Jew who built nice modern housing for Israeli Arab kids. I help. You introduced the fighting words by attacking Vincent and me.

Actually, you did. Maybe not words but the spirit behind the letter. If we were having this conversation over a drink and you showed such blatant, ignorant prejudice against Arabs and vocalized support for killing innocent people I'd punch you in the nose. Xanth, do you see the "if" and "I would" here? This is what differentiates a threat and a comment.

Everyone can see what you're doing here. So don't cry if you end up banned.

Ooh, very intimidating. Convenient way to get out of an argument you're losing too. One can only imagine the circle jerk this thread will turn into when the sycophants flood in and anyone that opposes your ideas sees you're willing to ban for disagreeing with you. Maybe you'll just delete this post? Just try not to carpet bomb my town after you ban me, ok?

And I've never said Hamas represent all Arabs.

This is pretty much exactly what you implied.

Just that Arabs happily kill thousand more fellow Arabs and the media remains silent not daring to affront the countries' who benefit from grabbing resources.

Media isn't paying attention to that guy stealing a car so it's cool if we go kick this guys door in, kill his kids and rape his wife.

The bombing of military targets is a response to indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli Arabs and Jews.

Indiscriminate bombing in response to indiscriminate bombing. There exactly the same thing but one of them totally isn't terrorism because I share an ethnicity with those terrorists.

The few trapped moderates want to escape the carnage Hamas invited upon Gaza; Egypt won't let them out. You remain clueless as to why.

Relevance?

Let me go ahead and reiterate this for you because you're being purposefully hard headed. Person a throws shit into person Bs yard, Person b responds by throwing a dead mule carcass in person As yard. Same thing in principle but person B took it to an extreme. You're calling the cops on person A for vandalism and giving person B a commendation for his skillful exterior decoration. This is my issue.

[darighaz]

2 groups of people, whos military forces wanna blow the shit outa eachother, because both sides are too stupid to stop shooting and just be friends.

The end.

Both sides are mountains of failure.

[geesehoward4life]

Is this wiki on Israel correct, especially the header, the early roots, Zionism and the British Mandate, Independence and First Years, along with Conflicts and Peace Treaties?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

It is important to know how everyone or anyone feels about this posted information because it contains, if it is correct, many of the answers to this situation. So before I weigh in on any of this current crisis I would like for people to tell me whether or not this wiki entry on Israel is correct or not, in particular the parts I just mentioned which is really the majority of it anyway. I know for some it might seem a bother but it actually is quite important to see how people interpret this wiki and whether or not it is accurate/correct in what it states. Thanks in advance...

[Charrington]

Is this wiki on Israel correct, especially the header, the early roots, Zionism and the British Mandate, Independence and First Years, along with Conflicts and Peace Treaties?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

It is important to know how everyone or anyone feels about this posted information because it contains, if it is correct, many of the answers to this situation. So before I weigh in on any of this current crisis I would like for people to tell me whether or not this wiki entry on Israel is correct or not, in particular the parts I just mentioned which is really the majority of it anyway. I know for some it might seem a bother but it actually is quite important to see how people interpret this wiki and whether or not it is accurate/correct in what it states. Thanks in advance...

History is written by the victors, wikipedia is written by whatever group sharing a view point happens to be the larger. That being said, I didn't read it. Whoever it favors, I would take any thing on wikipedia that is widely disputed at face value.

[stsparky]

Is this wiki on Israel correct, especially the header, the early roots, Zionism and the British Mandate, Independence and First Years, along with Conflicts and Peace Treaties?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

It is important to know how everyone or anyone feels about this posted information because it contains, if it is correct, many of the answers to this situation. So before I weigh in on any of this current crisis I would like for people to tell me whether or not this wiki entry on Israel is correct or not, in particular the parts I just mentioned which is really the majority of it anyway. I know for some it might seem a bother but it actually is quite important to see how people interpret this wiki and whether or not it is accurate/correct in what it states. Thanks in advance...

It's as true as it goes. It's the period in which Turks sold deeds to property three times.

Answer to Charrington - Israel will stop hammering legitimate military targets when Hamas stops shooting rockets.

[Samurai_Pooh]

really, who gives a flying fuck? there are far more people dying in the congo than in this conflict right now. The atrocities you see committed between israel and Palestinians pales in comparison to what you see go down in africa. But no one cares about dirty africans killing each other do they? its all about east vs. west and shit like that. ooohh jews and muslims duking it out, this is prime time shit. why do I have to listen to this once every 6-12 months? its always the same old story.

and charrington, your being a dick and blatantly trying to provoke sparky. stfu and be civil.

[Charrington]

really, who gives a flying fuck? there are far more people dying in the congo than in this conflict right now. The atrocities you see committed between israel and Palestinians pales in comparison to what you see go down in africa. But no one cares about dirty africans killing each other do they? its all about east vs. west and shit like that. ooohh jews and muslims duking it out, this is prime time shit. why do I have to listen to this once every 6-12 months? its always the same old story.

and charrington, your being a dick and blatantly trying to provoke sparky. stfu and be civil.

Africa is pretty much a lost cause. I'll be doing some volunteer teaching/infrastructure building/etc soon and I'm steering directly clear of Africa. The only way to help most Africans would be to have them immigrate to civilized countries. As far as civility goes, I'm being as civil as anyone else in this thread, the difference is they're masking their contempt and I have the testicular fortitude to make mine obvious. Israel is supposed to be a legitimate, 1st world government anyway, and Africa is generally lawless and third world. Besides, the G8 and whatnot all have their own interest in the results this situation.

Answer to Charrington - Israel will stop hammering legitimate military targets when Hamas stops shooting rockets.

This must be why Israel is refusing a truce with Hamas. Try again buddy.

[archdukezeb]

Africa is pretty much a lost cause. I'll be doing some volunteer teaching/infrastructure building/etc soon and I'm steering directly clear of Africa. The only way to help most Africans would be to have them immigrate to civilized countries. As far as civility goes, I'm being as civil as anyone else in this thread, the difference is they're masking their contempt and I have the testicular fortitude to make mine obvious. Israel is supposed to be a legitimate, 1st world government anyway, and Africa is generally lawless and third world. Besides, the G8 and whatnot all have their own interest in the results this situation.

To keep my response brief and civil. Fuck you.

[Myrsilus]

I don't want to make it a habit of locking every thread that pops up in GD. This sort of discussion is bound to spawn heated debates, but this is getting childish.

Consider this the only warning: given the current trend here in GD, any other blatant trolling (offensive remarks, name-calling, etc) in this thread will result in a ban. That goes for everyone. If you can't follow simple rules and get past this petty behavior, then don't post.

[stsparky]

... This must be why Israel is refusing a truce with Hamas. Try again buddy.
As if Hamas didn't also refuse. But they did. Arabs mostly hate Hamas for being Sunnis so they mostly get lip service. The United States, Egypt and Germany said that Israel's attack was a result of the Hamas bombing and that it condemned the attacks by Hamas. Hamas took a blow in the surprise Israeli attack of last Saturday. It must now consider whether its interests lie in developing a scorched-earth policy of resistance at all costs or whether to accept terms that would at least leave it in control of Gaza.

In a briefing to the Israeli cabinet, Shin Bet Chief Yuval Diskin said that Hamas has suffered significant damages and its rule over Gaza has been compromised, and that many Hamas operatives are hiding in hospitals, posing as medical staff, or hiding in mosques and using them as headquarters, since they assumed Israel won't attack them there. According to the Israeli air force, Hamas cells have been firing rockets from within densely populated areas and attempting to use Palestinian civilians as human shields. Cells have been detected in neighborhoods in Gaza City, Jabalya, Khan Younis and Rafah. The Israel Defense Forces has distributed flyers to the Palestinian population in Gaza, warning civilians not to stay in the vicinity of terror cells, for their own safety. The Israeli Air Force bombed a Gaza Strip mosque. According to the IDF the mosque was used by Hamas as a storage site for missiles and explosive materials and that rocket cells were firing at Israel from the mosque area and from nearby sites. The attack on the mosque was carried out after legal consultion with IDF experts on international law.
Hamas is the obstacle to Middle East peace (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/4045000/Hamas-is-the-obstacle-to-Middle-East-peace.html)
Israel's critics have got it wrong - extremists in Gaza must be defeated before a better future can be built, writes Ron Prosor, Israel's Ambassador to the UK.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01214/hamas_1214419c.jpg
Hamas has betrayed the Palestinian cause Photo: Reuters
In August 2005, Israel left Gaza. Every soldier was withdrawn. Every Jewish settlement was evacuated, in a process requiring 45,000 police and costing $2.5 billion. Politicians staked their reputations on a courageous step towards peace. They hoped Gaza could provide a blueprint of Palestinian autonomy, a precursor to a Palestinian state.

Tragically, Hamas chose violence, rejecting the chance to develop Gazan society and opting instead to attack ours. Missiles from Gaza have blighted the lives of Israeli civilians since 2001. The withdrawal should have brought calm, but 5,000 missiles and mortars have since rained down on Israel.
As I write, Hizbollah flags flutter in the Kensington streets outside my Embassy. Agitators hail the Hamas leadership that created the crisis. In Gaza, protestors dissenting against Hamas face the death sentence. With the blessing of Iran and Hizbollah, Hamas has turned Gaza into a theocratic nightmare.

Al-Hayat last Wednesday reported Hamas's new laws enforcing punishments of whipping for drinking, dismembering for theft, and executions for a host of ambiguous crimes. "Games of chance" are also to be punished with the whip. Ironically, Hamas continues to gamble with Palestinian lives.

Hamas is committed to Islamism at its bloodiest, and Israel is not its only target. In June 2007 Hamas turned its weapons on its brethren, chasing the Palestinian Authority from Gaza. According to the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, 161 people died during the bloody coup, including 41 civilians. Brutality has characterised Hamas's rule. In November 2007, seven demonstrators were killed, as Hamas police fired into an unarmed Fatah rally commemorating the death of Yasser Arafat. Last summer, Hamas killed 11 Fatah members as 200 more fled to Israel for safety. Yet while Hamas kills Palestinians, the megaphones remain mute.

Hamas has betrayed the Palestinian cause. The Palestinian national movement, previously based on secular, nationalist aspirations has been hijacked by religiously inspired lunacy. Every missile fired at Israel, every Fatah rival shot dead, has steered the Palestinians further from statehood, and closer to brutal theocracy and interminable conflict.

The megaphones crow selective demands to end the violence but Israel has been demanding calm for years. Our concerns have been treated with complacency. The realities faced by Israel's southern citizens have been downplayed. Their life under missile fire relegated to small-print, a footnote in the reams of condemnation of Israel's search for solutions to the Hamas menace.

500,000 Israelis live within range of Hamas's missiles. The piercing warning siren dominates the daily routine in towns like Sderot, Ashkelon and Ashdod. Anywhere within 40km of Gaza, communities raise their children in bomb shelters. Israel cannot sit back while Hamas improves the size and range of its arsenal.

No democratic government in the world would tolerate this. No population would permit it. No army would allow an implacable foe to launch missiles at its citizens and improve its capabilities.

As the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has pointed out, the loss of life in Gaza was "avoidable". Without the destructive actions of Hamas there would have been no reaction from Israel.

As Israel targets Hamas's terrorist infrastructure, we continue to supply Gaza with electricity and aid. Thousands of tonnes of food and medical supplies have passed through the border in recent days. The provision of electricity, aid and support to the civilians of an enemy territory, during a time of war, is a unique phenomenon. Our fight is not with the people of Gaza, but with the terrorist body holding them hostage.

Cries of "disproportionate" fill the airwaves, based largely on the difference in death tolls. Yet Hamas's disregard for the lives of civilians is the key to the difference. Israel provides shelters underneath its communities to protect its citizens. Hamas places missiles in shelters underneath civilians.

Hamas fires missiles with the express intent of murdering civilians. Israeli intent is directed solely at Hamas combatants.

The challenge of Hamas reflects the wider struggle between moderates and extremists that defines the dynamics of our region. Extremist cheerleaders parrot their usual rhetoric. Hamas's political leader Khaled Meshal preaches martyrdom from his throne in Damascus. Hassan Nasrallah of Hezbollah bellows "resistance", while imposing ideological tyranny on Lebanon.

Meanwhile, in Tehran, the operational head-quarters of Middle Eastern terror, President Ahmadinejad writes new verses of pseudo-religious justification for the murder of Jews. Shamefully, Channel 4 executives made him their Christmas guest of honour, insulting the intelligence and integrity of the British viewer. Their alternative Christmas message will go down in history as a disgrace to British broadcasting.

It is time to recognise that the tactics and ideology of Hamas and its backers are the foremost obstacle to Middle East peace. The moderates in the Arab world understand this better than some European observers.

For too long, Hamas has held progress to ransom, choosing war over peace, destruction over development. Israel's objective is to take the initiative away from Hamas. The pragmatic moderates of all sides need a new reality from which to find a diplomatic solution. Unless we weaken Hamas, the moderates cannot succeed. The international community, Israel and the pragmatic leadership of the Arab world must stand up to the extremism that threatens us all. We must start the New Year in the spirit of Churchill. If we are divided, we all stand to lose; "If we are together nothing is impossible."
And why does Egypt refuse those who may be their own citizens escape?

[stsparky]

Ambassador Marc Ginsberg: It's Overtime for Hamas' Leaders and Time for Them to Go (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amb-marc-ginsberg/its-overtime-for-hamas-le_b_154394.html)

The Gaza Strip is truly a forbidding place for the uninitiated.

I first visited Gaza City in 1971 when I was a young staffer on the U.S. Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Refugees undertaking one of Congress' first assessments of the plight of Palestinian refugees, and then several times in the past few decades.

It does not take a sophisticated observer to understand the repressive squalor that qualifies as subsistence living inside Gaza. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are crammed into a sandbox slum no bigger than the District of Columbia, cut off from their brethren in the West Bank -- yes, suffering under a Hamas rule that by any standard has actually made Gaza as close to a hell on earth as one can imagine. Instead of preserving the last vestiges of operable civilian infrastructure that the Israelis had left behind following their withdrawal a few years ago, Hamas methodically bulldozed the "Zionist contaminants" (translated from Hamas' own Arabic website). So much for giving its own people a better life even if it meant benefiting from Israeli "leftovers."

My last visit a few years ago was the most revealing (before Hamas seized Gaza). I was on a fact-finding mission and requested to meet with one of Hamas' leaders, who were surprisingly open to the request. Always important to hear extremists in their own tongue. I was put into the trunk of a car once across the Nesher Israeli crossing, and taken on a bone-breaking ride through Gaza's potholed streets to a back alley. The car stopped, the trunk popped open, and I soon found myself face to face with one of Hamas' leaders (name withheld).

For over two hours, I was subjected to the expected Hamas rantings about Israel's illegitimacy and Hamas' determination to transform Palestine into a fundamentalist Islamic state where only those Jews who had lived in pre-British Mandate Palestine would be "accepted."

And what would become of all of the other millions of Jews who had come to settle in Israel since then I asked? Hamas conveniently would force them out of Israel, and what became of them was of no consequence to Hamas. It was the UN's problem, the Americans' problem, the Germans' problem, but no longer the Palestinians' problem. Driving them into the sea would have been too impolitic for the Hamas spokesman to utter, but the intent was just the same.

Therefore, in order order to understand what this struggle is all about, one must understand Hamas' goals, largely derived from its ideological paternity to the Egyptian Muslim Brothehood. As a Sunni extremist offshoot of the Brotherhood, Hamas' raison d'etre is Israel's destruction -- nothing less will do.

Hamas' leaders, both in Gaza and in Damascus, have every intent to transform Hamas' control of Gaza into "Hezbollah South." Hamas, with Iran's backing, is slowly preparing Gaza to serve as a staging ground for an eventual all-out assault on Israel, joined at the hip with its Shiite extremist terrorist brethren of the Hezbollah who are also busily rearming themselves in Lebanon and itching for the next round of war with Israel -- hopefully with a nuclear-armed Iran to egg them on.

Since Hamas illegitimately seized control of Gaza from the Palestinian Authority in its own fratricidal terror campaign, Hamas has imposed a Taliban-style subsistence on the Gaza Strip, made all the harsher by Hamas' stubborn refusal to soften its hatred of Israel so as to permit more aid to enter Gaza.

The rockets being fired arbitrarily, and may I intentionally add, without Israeli provocation, after the expiration on December 18 of the latest intermittent "Tahdiyeh" or self-declared Hamas "lull" is designed to turn southern Israel into a virtual no-man's land. Hamas wants to begin "liberating" Palestine from its side of the border.

When Hamas' leaders decided to resume their indiscriminate rocket fire into Israel, they did so knowing full well that Israel would be forced to react no matter what the inevitable civilian suffering. Having smuggled into Gaza longer-range Grad missiles from Iran through the 800 some odd tunnels that Hamas has dug under the Egyptian-Gaza border, Hamas is betting on the hope that the Israel's countermeasures would drive more and more Palestinians into the lap of Hamas, both in Gaza and the West Bank. There is a real danger that this could occur.

Despite my instinctive belief that one should try to negotiate a way out of this dilemma no matter the odds, I have concluded that the only way out of this mess is to separate Hamas' entire military and political leadership from the oppressed citizenry of Gaza (and yes, it is absolutely a mischaracterization of fact to assert that Hamas is the legitimate ruler of Gaza). Easier said than done you say. But as long as Hamas rules Gaza, no amount of cajoling is going to end the vicious cycle of terror that Hamas is inflicting first and foremost on its own beaten-down Palestinian victims as well as on Israel.

Just as Yassir Arafat was forced into Tunisian exile in 1982 after he transformed Lebanon into a mess, so, too, must Hamas' leadership share a similar fate until such time as they either die clinging to their nightmarish vision for the future of Palestine, or end their campaign of terror once and for all.

Ultimately, the Palestinian people deserve better than what Hamas offers them. Hamas has rejected every opportunity to be more accommodating not only with Israel, but also with every Arab mediator that has tried to mend Hamas' fences with the Palestinian Authority. That speaks volumes about Hamas' true intentions. As long as Hamas rules its Gaza roost with its iron fist, any hope for a two state solution is just not in the cards. Hamas plays with a crooked deck.

If not merely for the sake of Israel's right to live in peace and security, but also for the right of Palestinians to have a brighter tomorrow, its time to force Hamas' leadership out of Gaza. Preferably, this will be done not as a result of further destruction to Gaza or to Israeli southern cities, but due to unyielding international pressure that forces Hamas to relinquish its stranglehold on Gaza. Better for Hamas leaders to live in forced exile rather than enable them to block any hope for ending Gaza's misery and establishing a Palestinian homeland existing side-by-side with a safe and secure Israel.

For those shedding crocodile tears for Hamas, its time to take a good hard look at what it has wrought on the Palestinians of Gaza.
====

Ambassador Ginsberg spent his formative years in the Middle East, particularly in Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon from 1960-1968. He began his foreign policy career as a foreign affairs advisor during his freshman year in college to Senator Edward M. Kennedy (1971-1977). He was appointed by Secretary of State Vance as his White House Liaison in 1977, and then served as Deputy Senior Advisor to President Carter for Middle East Policy on his White House staff from 1979-1981.

In 1994, he was appointed by President Clinton as U.S. Ambassador to Morocco, making him the first American of Jewish heritage to be appointed to an Arab nation. Currently, Amb. Ginsberg is President of Layalina Television, the first U.S. philanthropic producer of commercial Arabic language television for broadcasting in the Arab world (visit www.layalina.tv). Layalina’s programs currently appear on MBC – the largest pan-Arab Middle East network.

[Harrison]

I was talking about what Ehud Barak offered. But it seems that when offered peace over conflict — the PLA chose to continue fighting.
Oh, ok. So you agree with me that Netanyahu's deliberately backing out of the deal that Rabin had signed with the Palestinians, which had led to an end to the "first intifadeh" (or however you spell that), destroyed the peace that had broken out. Right?

IMO Rabin's assassin Amir was a religious right wing nutjob who'd I argue isn't actually a Zionist.
As opposed to all the other right-wing nutjobs who ARE Zionists, you mean? Such as Netanyahu, for but one minor example. . . .

[ミュー]

I think they will keep killing each other until the end of time. Honestly, any foreign assistance would be little more than a grand waste of money.

[Charrington]

Ambassador Marc Ginsberg: It's Overtime for Hamas' Leaders and Time for Them to Go (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amb-marc-ginsberg/its-overtime-for-hamas-le_b_154394.html)

The Gaza Strip is truly a forbidding place for the uninitiated.

I first visited Gaza City in 1971 when I was a young staffer on the U.S. Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Refugees undertaking one of Congress' first assessments of the plight of Palestinian refugees, and then several times in the past few decades.

It does not take a sophisticated observer to understand the repressive squalor that qualifies as subsistence living inside Gaza. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are crammed into a sandbox slum no bigger than the District of Columbia, cut off from their brethren in the West Bank -- yes, suffering under a Hamas rule that by any standard has actually made Gaza as close to a hell on earth as one can imagine. Instead of preserving the last vestiges of operable civilian infrastructure that the Israelis had left behind following their withdrawal a few years ago, Hamas methodically bulldozed the "Zionist contaminants" (translated from Hamas' own Arabic website). So much for giving its own people a better life even if it meant benefiting from Israeli "leftovers."

My last visit a few years ago was the most revealing (before Hamas seized Gaza). I was on a fact-finding mission and requested to meet with one of Hamas' leaders, who were surprisingly open to the request. Always important to hear extremists in their own tongue. I was put into the trunk of a car once across the Nesher Israeli crossing, and taken on a bone-breaking ride through Gaza's potholed streets to a back alley. The car stopped, the trunk popped open, and I soon found myself face to face with one of Hamas' leaders (name withheld).

For over two hours, I was subjected to the expected Hamas rantings about Israel's illegitimacy and Hamas' determination to transform Palestine into a fundamentalist Islamic state where only those Jews who had lived in pre-British Mandate Palestine would be "accepted."

And what would become of all of the other millions of Jews who had come to settle in Israel since then I asked? Hamas conveniently would force them out of Israel, and what became of them was of no consequence to Hamas. It was the UN's problem, the Americans' problem, the Germans' problem, but no longer the Palestinians' problem. Driving them into the sea would have been too impolitic for the Hamas spokesman to utter, but the intent was just the same.

Therefore, in order order to understand what this struggle is all about, one must understand Hamas' goals, largely derived from its ideological paternity to the Egyptian Muslim Brothehood. As a Sunni extremist offshoot of the Brotherhood, Hamas' raison d'etre is Israel's destruction -- nothing less will do.

Hamas' leaders, both in Gaza and in Damascus, have every intent to transform Hamas' control of Gaza into "Hezbollah South." Hamas, with Iran's backing, is slowly preparing Gaza to serve as a staging ground for an eventual all-out assault on Israel, joined at the hip with its Shiite extremist terrorist brethren of the Hezbollah who are also busily rearming themselves in Lebanon and itching for the next round of war with Israel -- hopefully with a nuclear-armed Iran to egg them on.

Since Hamas illegitimately seized control of Gaza from the Palestinian Authority in its own fratricidal terror campaign, Hamas has imposed a Taliban-style subsistence on the Gaza Strip, made all the harsher by Hamas' stubborn refusal to soften its hatred of Israel so as to permit more aid to enter Gaza.

The rockets being fired arbitrarily, and may I intentionally add, without Israeli provocation, after the expiration on December 18 of the latest intermittent "Tahdiyeh" or self-declared Hamas "lull" is designed to turn southern Israel into a virtual no-man's land. Hamas wants to begin "liberating" Palestine from its side of the border.

When Hamas' leaders decided to resume their indiscriminate rocket fire into Israel, they did so knowing full well that Israel would be forced to react no matter what the inevitable civilian suffering. Having smuggled into Gaza longer-range Grad missiles from Iran through the 800 some odd tunnels that Hamas has dug under the Egyptian-Gaza border, Hamas is betting on the hope that the Israel's countermeasures would drive more and more Palestinians into the lap of Hamas, both in Gaza and the West Bank. There is a real danger that this could occur.

Despite my instinctive belief that one should try to negotiate a way out of this dilemma no matter the odds, I have concluded that the only way out of this mess is to separate Hamas' entire military and political leadership from the oppressed citizenry of Gaza (and yes, it is absolutely a mischaracterization of fact to assert that Hamas is the legitimate ruler of Gaza). Easier said than done you say. But as long as Hamas rules Gaza, no amount of cajoling is going to end the vicious cycle of terror that Hamas is inflicting first and foremost on its own beaten-down Palestinian victims as well as on Israel.

Just as Yassir Arafat was forced into Tunisian exile in 1982 after he transformed Lebanon into a mess, so, too, must Hamas' leadership share a similar fate until such time as they either die clinging to their nightmarish vision for the future of Palestine, or end their campaign of terror once and for all.

Ultimately, the Palestinian people deserve better than what Hamas offers them. Hamas has rejected every opportunity to be more accommodating not only with Israel, but also with every Arab mediator that has tried to mend Hamas' fences with the Palestinian Authority. That speaks volumes about Hamas' true intentions. As long as Hamas rules its Gaza roost with its iron fist, any hope for a two state solution is just not in the cards. Hamas plays with a crooked deck.

If not merely for the sake of Israel's right to live in peace and security, but also for the right of Palestinians to have a brighter tomorrow, its time to force Hamas' leadership out of Gaza. Preferably, this will be done not as a result of further destruction to Gaza or to Israeli southern cities, but due to unyielding international pressure that forces Hamas to relinquish its stranglehold on Gaza. Better for Hamas leaders to live in forced exile rather than enable them to block any hope for ending Gaza's misery and establishing a Palestinian homeland existing side-by-side with a safe and secure Israel.

For those shedding crocodile tears for Hamas, its time to take a good hard look at what it has wrought on the Palestinians of Gaza.
====

Ambassador Ginsberg spent his formative years in the Middle East, particularly in Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon from 1960-1968. He began his foreign policy career as a foreign affairs advisor during his freshman year in college to Senator Edward M. Kennedy (1971-1977). He was appointed by Secretary of State Vance as his White House Liaison in 1977, and then served as Deputy Senior Advisor to President Carter for Middle East Policy on his White House staff from 1979-1981.

In 1994, he was appointed by President Clinton as U.S. Ambassador to Morocco, making him the first American of Jewish heritage to be appointed to an Arab nation. Currently, Amb. Ginsberg is President of Layalina Television, the first U.S. philanthropic producer of commercial Arabic language television for broadcasting in the Arab world (visit www.layalina.tv). Layalina’s programs currently appear on MBC – the largest pan-Arab Middle East network.

I'm not gonna read any of this, partly because I'm hungover but mostly because no matter what you post Israel will still be killing civilians.

[stsparky]

Mew?
Honestly, I'm not that pessimistic. I'm sure not all in Gaza want to die for the glory of their Hamas cell. I pray Israel isn't goaded into a land war. It took 30 odd years for Fatah from being only a band of thoughtless terrorists to become almost statesmen who'd sit down to negotiate. Fatah sadly had thieves at the top of its' leadership. National Geographic once highlighted one of them who had a mansion stocked with luxury sports cars. If the hotheads have flown the coop, and calmer heads can cool the ardor of the idiots who want to blow themselves up for Allah (http://newsblaze.com/story/20081229092838zzzz.nb/topstory.html).
====
Wanted: For 'Mission Implausible' in Gaza - [Opinion] A sarcastic view of critics of Israel to do a better job of fighting Islamic terror (http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?article_class=16&no=384540&rel_no=1)
“... I suggest recalling that there is a global war on terror, and that Israel is on the front lines of this battle, fighting alone. Zero tolerance for terrorism against Israel would be a good start. If the Palestinians have enough money to buy rockets they have enough money to buy their own food - they don't need your money too. In these times when money is more of an issue than ever before I am sure there are peoples who are far more deserving of the world's attention - people who didn't vote for Islamic terrorists. What a powerful message that would send to the terrorists and for others who might contemplate terror in order to get attention for their cause seeing how well terror has served the Palestinians. ... ”
===

Yigal Walt: Answering Israel’s critics. Six clichés you are likely to hear constantly in the coming days, and why they’re false (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3647296,00.html)

1) “Israel’s response in Gaza is disproportionate”

Since when is war a mathematical equation? The basic objective of any warring party is to inflict maximal damage on the enemy while minimizing its own casualties. Was there anything proportional about the US war in Iraq? Or about Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait for that matter? Or about Russia’s recent war against Georgia? Israel is doing exactly what any other country has done in the past. This is how war works.

Would a British citizen complain that “too few” British soldiers are being killed in Iraq? Probably not.

And on a more elementary note: Palestinian military inferiority is not an indication of moral superiority. Palestinian insistence on resorting to violence despite this military weakness is an indication of poor judgment perhaps – yet it is by no means an indication of moral virtue. Being militarily weak does not make the Palestinians right.

2) “But Qassams don’t kill”

Actually, Qassams do kill. Not too often, perhaps, but dozens of Israelis were killed and wounded by rocket fire in recent years. Moreover, at this time the Palestinians are firing long-range Grad rockets with even greater explosive power. Such rockets killed 2 Israelis Monday.

Yet beyond the casualty figures, the psychological damage caused as result of living under an ongoing rocket threat is immeasurable. Would anyone in the West agree to have their family live under constant rocket attacks and be regularly woken up by sirens in the middle of the night? Would anyone living under such conditions appreciate being told that “these rockets don’t kill?” Probably not.

3) “It’s all because of Israel’s siege. Israel should allow aid into Gaza.”

Israel has allowed goods into Gaza regularly throughout the “siege”. Palestinians have been able to complement these deliveries with supplies smuggled through hundreds of tunnels (of course, they would likely be able to bring in even more food had they not used the tunnels to smuggle in missiles.).

The day before operation “Cast Lead” got underway, Israel allowed dozens of trucks carrying aid to enter the Strip. On Tuesday, another 100 trucks – double the normal number –are expected to enter Gaza after Defense Minister Barak approved the move.
In short, Israel is allowing aid into the Strip (but guess who has kept Gaza crossings mostly closed thus far? That’s right, Egypt.)

4) “Why didn’t Israel just agree to renew the Gaza truce?”

First, what truce? Terror groups continued to fire rockets throughout the lull, even if somewhat infrequently, and even if the world didn’t seem to care too much. Nonetheless, Israel clearly declared that it is interested in extending the truce. Our top officials made it clear time and again.

Yet Hamas leaders clearly declared that the truce has ended on December 19th, and proceeded to bombard southern Israeli communities with dozens of rockets daily. In short, it is no wonder that even the Egyptians are blaming Hamas this time.

5) “But Hamas was elected democratically – why can’t Israel accept it?”

Although Hamas won the Palestinian elections, it took Gaza by force, in the process hurling rival Fatah members down to their death from high-rises and shooting others in the knees with the declared aim of maiming them. Some democracy.

In any case, Israel in fact “recognizes,” de facto, Hamas’ rule in Gaza, which is precisely why it is justified in attacking the Hamas-ruled Strip, recognizing that it is indeed being governed by a terror entity. Israel did not launch the operation because Hamas is in power there – rather, it did so because Hamas is a terrorist organization that has deliberately targeted civilians with thousands of rockets over the past 8 years.

6) “Israel is targeting civilians”

You mean to say that “one of the most powerful armies in the world” has been bombing Gaza for days, deploying massive air power, dropping hundreds of bombs, and ultimately killing a grand total of 50 civilians or so in the “most crowded place on earth?”

There are two options here:
A) The Israeli army is not targeting civilians, or
B) Israeli pilots suck. We tend to go with option A.

Indeed, Israel goes to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties, by deploying precise ammunition and specialized techniques. In fact, nobody in the world does this better than the Jewish State.

[stsparky]

I'm not gonna read any of this, partly because I'm hungover but mostly because no matter what you post Israel will still be killing civilians.
Yeah — let's reiterate:
“Israel is targeting civilians”
You mean to say that “one of the most powerful armies in the world” has been bombing Gaza for days, deploying massive air power, dropping hundreds of bombs, and ultimately killing a grand total of 50 civilians or so in the “most crowded place on earth?”

There are two options here:
A) The Israeli army is not targeting civilians, or
B) Israeli pilots suck. We tend to go with option A.

Indeed, Israel goes to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties, by deploying precise ammunition and specialized techniques. In fact, nobody in the world does this better than the Jewish State.

[Mechs]

Ugh...not this again....

My .02 cents: If Israel was really targeting civilians, there would be a shit ton more than 300 or whatever the number is up to now. I feel sorry for every civilian killed, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles. I back Israel and hope they succeed in forcing Hamas to back the fuck down.

[Urameshi YuSooKey]

If there is ever a constant on this board, it's that a Karthak thread always sucks.

[Charrington]

Yeah — let's reiterate:
“Israel is targeting civilians”
You mean to say that “one of the most powerful armies in the world” has been bombing Gaza for days, deploying massive air power, dropping hundreds of bombs, and ultimately killing a grand total of 50 civilians or so in the “most crowded place on earth?”

There are two options here:
A) The Israeli army is not targeting civilians, or
B) Israeli pilots suck. We tend to go with option A.

Indeed, Israel goes to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties, by deploying precise ammunition and specialized techniques. In fact, nobody in the world does this better than the Jewish State.

Blah blah blah Israel is killing civilians and it isn't terrorism because they're brown and muslim.

[Plekto]

Both sides need a time-out. Stand in a corner for a while and think about what they've done.

Because the truth is that neither side gives a rat's ass about the other. Neither side kept the cease-fire(lip service by both, really), and neither side seems to really want peace.

So in a way, I'm inclined to let them fight it out until they come to their senses.

And, no, 400 deaths isn't a big deal. In WWII, shoot, we'd carpet-bomb entire cities flat and thought nothing of it. The public didn't seem to care, either. Put in the perspective of 1.5 million people in Gaza, it's still on the scale of tossing rocks and dirt at each other. If Israel really wanted, they could kill a couple hundred thousand in 48 hours or less just by conventional artillery and incendiary rounds.

One thing, though - 10,000 soldiers isn't going to do anything if the residents decide to repel them. I thin they're in for a rude awakening if they try to invade.

****
Found this online in the news feeds
****
Israel's strike Thursday against the home of top Hamas leader Nizar Rayan was a typical case.

The bomb flattened the house and killed the man involved in attacks on Israel — as well as 18 other people, including nine of his children, aged 2 to 19, and all four of his wives. Television footage showed medics clutching the bodies of lifeless children dug out of the rubble the house and neighboring buildings.

Hamas officials said Rayan refused to leave his home, although he knew he was a likely target — effectively risking civilians living nearby.

For the Hamdan children, however, the attack was all the more random. The three children, Haya, 12, Lama, 4 and Ismail, 11, were dumping garbage in an empty field near their home Tuesday morning, not knowing that moments before Gaza militants nearby had just fired rockets at Israel.

An Israeli warship fired a missile at the site. The two girls were killed instantly, while Ismail lingered on until Wednesday.
****
I'm sure the people will all be considered "civilians" in his house. Technically, yes, but the man was an idiot to have his friends and family around him when he's a target for a bombing run. He shouldn't use his family as shields, because, well, they all just got killed with him.

And the girls - yes, it's unfortunate, but they were right next to where they were launching rockets. It's not like Israel is trying to blow up everything without any control.

Basically what happens is that Gaza has helicopters and aircraft roaming above it and when they see a rocket launch take place, they hammer the launch site. This all happens within a minute or less. They try to be precise, but mistakes do happen. As long as the rockets keep being launched, Israel is going to keep hitting launch sites and the buildings they are coming from.

[stsparky]

Blah blah blah Israel is killing civilians and it isn't terrorism because they're brown and muslim.
Israel is targeting terrorist rocketeers; And no one is talking skin color or religion. Whereas, Arab on Arab violence shouldn't get a pass from you either. I doubt Arabs see themselves as "Brown" by the way. And many of the victims in Israel are Israeli Arabs.

I think Hamas should be done.

[Karthak]

If there is ever a constant on this board, it's that a Karthak thread always sucks.
What makes you say that?

[stsparky]

What makes you say that?
I think he wants to provoke you. But let us review. The Christian and Moslem world is aghast because they're getting yet another lesson in the fact Jews won't sit and take crap from punk terrorists. As if we're going to keep it even. Hamas is hiding like rats on a burning ship right now. This is a proxy war because the real protagonists lack the guts to get their asses kicked.

Hamas Militants has brought this crap upon innocents by not doing anything to distance themselves from the general population. I think Hamas has bet "the farm" on anti-tank booby traps. And if Israel refuses to put boots on the ground - it's more innocents who have to deal with those.

[Karthak]

I think he wants to provoke you. But let us review. The Christian and Moslem world is aghast because they're getting yet another lesson in the fact Jews won't sit and take crap from punk terrorists. As if we're going to keep it even. Hamas is hiding like rats on a burning ship right now. This is a proxy war because the real protagonists lack the guts to get their asses kicked.

Hamas Militants has brought this crap upon innocents by not doing anything to distance themselves from the general population. I think Hamas has bet "the farm" on anti-tank booby traps. And if Israel refuses to put boots on the ground - it's more innocents who have to deal with those.
Please don't forget that the palestinians aren't the only ones with crazies. The man who shot Rabin was a jew. Lots of fanatics like that guy have influence in Israel. Remember the israeli settlers who create illegal settlements on the west bank and launch attacks on palestinian villages, convinced that they have to drive the palestinians out of the entire "holy land"?

[mugen]

Yeah, Israel has dumb people also, but at least the state treats them like they should be treated.

[Jetsetlemming]

What makes you say that?
http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/search.php?searchid=386733

[Karthak]

http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/search.php?searchid=386733
I've seen threads on this forum that are way crazier than anything I've ever written...

[stsparky]

Please don't forget that the palestinians aren't the only ones with crazies. ...
But they're treated like mentally ill people. I - face to face - told Meir Kahane he was being a NAZI back in 1981. No Israelis strap explosives on to kill innocents as far as I know. We seen a singular crazed American Jew shoot innocents in a mosque.

[Karthak]

Just read that Israel is not allowing any foreign journalists into Gaza. Surprise surprise...

[PopCulturePooka]

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6426471,00.jpg

Above: Obvious Terrorist Scum!!!!

[stsparky]

Just read that Israel is not allowing any foreign journalists into Gaza. Surprise surprise...
Meaning what? That's pretty snide. You think journalists are magically immune from booby traps left by Hamas?

The "Ban" (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2009/01/02/news/ML-Israel-Journalists-Banned.php)

“... A military spokesman said Israel kept the journalists out because authorities at the crossing point were focused on processing the nearly 300 Palestinians exiting Gaza.

"The crossing today was overwhelmed dealing with the emergency evacuation of people," said army spokesman Peter Lerner.

The Erez crossing, which was expanded during renovations in recent years, has a large terminal designed to process thousands of people crossing in each direction daily.

Lerner said journalists might be allowed across on Sunday, when Israel plans to open the crossing for injured Palestinians to enter Israel for medical treatment. ”
http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6426471,00.jpg
Above: Obvious Terrorist Scum!!!!
Chances are he had a bomb strapped to his chest. Poor innocent! It couldn't be his own idea.
“ ... 64 Palestinian civilians have been killed, said Dr. Moaiya Hassanain, a Health Ministry official. The new deaths brought the death toll in the Gaza Strip to more than 512 since Dec. 27. The tally is based on figures from the U.N. and Palestinian health officials as well as a count by The Associated Press.”
So that basically means 8 out of 100 people killed were innocent bystanders. Whereas Hamas attempt to kill only innocents.

[Charrington]

(edited).

[Roxie]

This has gone on long enough.
Charrington, you've been warned already and you've seen what happened when someone else used the same language you did. Why you thought it would be appropriate is beyond me.

Thread Locked.