California: Don't Bother Saving Anyone's Life.

[Sock Full of Boiled Dimes]

Imagine yourself driving down Interstate 5 for whatever reason. It's really late, but you are really looking forward to that trip to Canada. You reach over and change a CD and take a sip of Red Bull.

Suddenly you happen upon a huge pile up, at least 11 cars, and it's blocking the entire Interstate. You stop and get out. Suddenly you see a flipped over SUV with a pregnant woman unconscious in the front seat. There are fluids leaking around her and it looks like a fire could start any minute. There are also other people trapped and pinned in and from the looks of things you showed up exactly after it happened. It could take a few minutes before the police, ambulance and fire department arrives, but you call 911 anyway.

You then recline in your front seat and watch the show.

Suddenly you get a tap on the window. It's another passing motorist and says, "Hey, aren't you going come help me help those people?"

Your simple response can be, "What!? And get SUED!? (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/12/18/state/n134850S58.DTL&hw=supreme+court&sn=002&sc=964)

[Plekto]

This is what happens when you don't take Shakespeare's advice about lawyers...

Welcome to California.

[Hikoku-Y]

According to the opinion, you only have to worry about being found liable if you fail to exercise due care. The opinion takes no position as to what due care is in this situation (at least, according to the article). Seems pretty reasonable to me.

[bluestars87]

Hmm...well that sucks. However, I'm trying to put myself in the person's position. The person who was injured that is. If I had to choose between taking my chances being a paraplegic and dying in a car explosion, well...hmm...actually I don't know.

Regardless, justice never prevails. It's all about how much money you have. This story reminds me of the "Repair Man" skit on the old Nickelodeon show "All That".

[Silent Dob]

Why is he getting blamed for her injuries? Did he something specific to injure her legs or did she just get injured in the crash and decide to blame it on the guy?

[nanashi]

This isn't something new, and I thought it was widely known that moving someone after an accident can be damaging to the spine.. And people can sue. It's not just Cali.

[Stephy]

Hmm yeah. When I trained for my first aide license, we were told to access the environment for danger, but never to move the victim, because damage to the spine or neck could occur and basically leave it to the professionals.

(also because you can put yourself in the same danger the victim is in and blah blah blah)

[Roxie]

that article is lacking in detail.

[StormShadow]

Hmm yeah. When I trained for my first aide license, we were told to access the environment for danger, but never to move the victim, because damage to the spine or neck could occur and basically leave it to the professionals.

(also because you can put yourself in the same danger the victim is in and blah blah blah)

My EMT training dictated that during certain dangerious sitations to the patient you should attempt to move them. For example, if the patient is laying in the middle of a busy road, or in a vehicle which will potentially catch on fire. The key thing was to ATTEMPT to maintain an in-line C-Spine, but the danger to the patient as a whole trumped the concern over spinal injury.

[Stephy]

Yeah, I didn't get that sort of training. It was more with blood, splinting fractures, and CPR than anything else. We left the rest to the professionals which usually were emergency medical technicians (you).

[Harrison]

This is what happens when you don't take Shakespeare's advice about lawyers...

Welcome to California.
Wrong answer. Thanks for playing, you can pick from one of our nifty consolation prizes.

If you render assistance, you must do so competently. That is longstanding law, and is intended to prevent EXACTLY what happened in this accident.

This is why paramedics carry those nifty neck braces ("cervical collars") around with them -- so that if a person's neck bones have fractured during the accident, the paramedics don't rip the person's spinal cord apart when they move the person out of the car.

[Plekto]

Yeah, but if there are no paramedics....

If you get involved, you get the courts kicking your teeth in for trying.
If you don't get involved, you get the same result.

Isn't it great? And you wonder why people just drive by and leave the scene as quickly as possible.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

If there are no paramedics, you still don't do a damned thing unless the person who has been injured wants you to. You try and call 911 and get the paramedics there quickly. If you think something needs to be done, you ask "The medics will be here soon, do you need me to do anything?" For some reason a lot of people are framing this as needing to ask, "Do you willfully give me consent to save you?" Please.

[japanat]

If there are no paramedics, you still don't do a damned thing unless the person who has been injured wants you to. You try and call 911 and get the paramedics there quickly. If you think something needs to be done, you ask "The medics will be here soon, do you need me to do anything?" For some reason a lot of people are framing this as needing to ask, "Do you willfully give me consent to save you?" Please.That's a really good point. If the person can give consent, you should seek it. Don't just bounce in like some First-Aid Rambo and drag the person around while ignoring their condition. I would change your first sentence, though: "If there are no paramedics, you don't do a damned thing unless the person who is injured wants you to, or is unable to respond, with the caveat that you must respond up to the level of your training."

However, as StormShadow says, there are situations where the injured person's life is at greater risk by doing nothing. We were trained to look at the surrounding environment, and if there were risk to the person's life, you did your best to not injure the spine, but... The reasoning goes: "Better paralyzed than dead."

When people dove into the pool I managed and injured/broke their necks (happened several times over the course of years), it was better to turn them over while attempting to maintain a straight spine than to let them drown face down!

[Citizen]

Calling 911 is the extent of my emergency medical qualifications, and as such is as far as I would proceed. 99% of the time the victim will be better off that way, than they would if I decided to jump in and make an educated guess as to what qualifies as proper spine support.

[Harrison]

Yeah, but if there are no paramedics....

If you get involved, you get the courts kicking your teeth in for trying.
If you don't get involved, you get the same result.
No, you don't. If you move someone with a fractured neck, you run the risk of spinal cord injuries resulting in paraplegia. That's what happened in this case. If the woman had been left in her car until paramedics arrived, they would have had the equipment and training to avoid causing or increasing the damage.

It's been nearly thirty years since I was in Boy Scouts, but even back then they trained everyone going for the first aid merit badge: you don't drag people out of car wrecks, because if they have spinal fractures, you could cripple them permanently.

Isn't it great? And you wonder why people just drive by and leave the scene as quickly as possible.
Nonsense. People do their damndest to rescue others whom they believe are in trouble. Intentional failure to render aid -- when it's really needed -- is rare.

[Plekto]

And there's your problem.

"People do the damndest to rescue others"
Too bad if it doesn't turn out great, they get their asses sued off...

So what the hell do you actually do? Most likely nothing, thanks to how the laws are screwed up.

[StormShadow]

If there are no paramedics, you still don't do a damned thing unless the person who has been injured wants you to. You try and call 911 and get the paramedics there quickly. If you think something needs to be done, you ask "The medics will be here soon, do you need me to do anything?" For some reason a lot of people are framing this as needing to ask, "Do you willfully give me consent to save you?" Please.

If the victim is unconcious it becomes implied consent. You can legally treat them because the law assumes that if that person was able to they would consent to treatment.

[koku]

As a lifegaurd, we have to ask basically tell people who we are and ask them to be saved lol. I wonder if said people did the same if it would help in court.

[raulramos3000]

If I had to choose between taking my chances being a paraplegic and dying in a car explosion, well...hmm...actually I don't know.

Cars don't usually just explode out of the blue. I'd rather be left alone till the paramedics arrive than have some person who's watched one too many action movies drag me out like a rag doll.

[Gorlam]

Cars don't usually just explode out of the blue. I'd rather be left alone till the paramedics arrive than have some person who's watched one too many action movies drag me out like a rag doll.


^this it is very VERY rare that a car would blow up.

[volomavi]

As a lifegaurd, we have to ask basically tell people who we are and ask them to be saved lol. I wonder if said people did the same if it would help in court.


"No you asshole, I want to drown." "But...." "NO!" "Fine!"

And then you get sued with assisted suicide.

[MeneerDijk]

Hrm, this is the sort of thing we discussed in my first aid class... Sometimes doing nothing (or at least, not touching the person in need of help) is better than performing first aid procedures. Because you can't see what happened to the spine. We got instructed that as long as the person is stable (ie. conscious, and in no immediate further threat, and breathing is normal and unhindered) You leave the patient right where he or she is. So the professionals can cut the car open and take care of the situation. Ofcourse keeping your eye on the person all the time to make sure the situation doesnt get worse.

In this case i don't know what would've been the right thing. But i don't think it's right to sue the person for trying to help, and besides. you can't possibly prove the actions of the helper made it worse.

[japanat]

As a lifegaurd, we have to ask basically tell people who we are and ask them to be saved lol. I wonder if said people did the same if it would help in court.As a lifeguard and lifeguard trainer, we had to rescue anyone, whether they wanted it or not. If they're panicky and dangerous, let them pass out first; if necessary let them drown rather than risk yourself drowning as well. But that's not the same as the situation here.

Someone in a car accident, apparently not in any immediate danger, told their would-be rescuer they didn't want any help, and were ignored. This unwanted, actually vehemently-denied 'help' resulted in their suffering permanent spinal injuries. The 'helper' committed an act which should be eligible for trial. The trial can then determine if there need be any restitution. Remember, the Calif. Supreme Court only said the trial may be held, it didn't assign any liability.

[StormShadow]

Someone in a car accident, apparently not in any immediate danger, told their would-be rescuer they didn't want any help, and were ignored. This unwanted, actually vehemently-denied 'help' resulted in their suffering permanent spinal injuries. The 'helper' committed an act which should be eligible for trial. The trial can then determine if there need be any restitution. Remember, the Calif. Supreme Court only said the trial may be held, it didn't assign any liability.

Is there another article with more information that you've found, because the one linked in the first post doesn't say that the victim denied help. The article doens't make any mention of the level of conciousness of the victim.

[japanat]

From the Calif court documents: http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/supreme/documents/vanhorn1.pdf

On Halloween night in 2004, plaintiff Alexandra Van Horn, defendant Lisa Torti, and some other friends were relaxing at Torti’s home, where both Van Horn and Torti smoked some marijuana. The friends went to a bar at 10:00 p.m., where they consumed several drinks before leaving at 1:30 in the morning. On the way home, Van Horn and Torti were passengers in two different cars. The driver of the car carrying Van Horn lost control and crashed into a curb and light pole at about 45 miles per hour, causing the vehicle’s front air bags to deploy. The car carrying Torti pulled over and the occupants got out to help.

Torti removed Van Horn from the car. There is a dispute about how she
did so. Torti testified that she placed one arm under Van Horn’s legs and the other behind Van Horn’s back and lifted her out of the vehicle. Torti also testified that she believed the car might catch fire or “blow up.” In contrast, Van Horn testified that Torti pulled her from the vehicle by grabbing her arm and yanking her out “like a rag doll.”

Other witnesses testified that there was no smoke or any other indication that the car might explode. Emergency personnel arrived moments later. Plaintiff suffered various injuries, including injury to her vertebrae, and was
permanently paralyzed. Van Horn sued Torti, alleging that she had not been in need of assistance from Torti after the accident and that she sustained injury to her vertebrae only after Torti negligently dragged her out of the vehicle, causing permanent damage to her spinal cord and rendering her a paraplegic The bolded statements imply that she was conscious and unwilling to be moved. I may be overreaching here, but that's the way I read it.

[Nights_into_dreams]

Here's something more fun:

In Cali, you owe even trespassers a standard of reasonable care.

That's right, those people who are on your property illegally, if they get injured and it was something YOU could have forseen reasonably...you're responsible.

*shakes head

[japanat]

Here's something more fun:

In Cali, you owe even trespassers a standard of reasonable care.

That's right, those people who are on your property illegally, if they get injured and it was something YOU could have forseen reasonably...you're responsible.

*shakes headMany states have similar rules. That's why a cop friend of mine told that if I ever shot an intruder, to make damned sure they were dead before calling the cops...

[StormShadow]

From the Calif court documents: http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/supreme/documents/vanhorn1.pdf

The bolded statements imply that she was conscious and unwilling to be moved. I may be overreaching here, but that's the way I read it.


It doesn't imply she was unwilling to be moved. If she was unwilling to be moved, it would say in the article that she said she didn't want to be moved.