Obama Wants To Hear From YOU!

[Beowulf]

No, for serious. (http://change.gov/page/content/openforquestions)

Sign up. Post questions. Vote on questions.

Bonus: Read the questions posted by the insane and mentally infirm!
Some gems:
"Will you let us know if Aliens and UFOs exist?"
"Why is Islam so disgusting?"
"Why are you so opposed to ass-bandit marriage?"

Also like 70% of these are "IS POT LEGAL?!? WHEN WILL POT BE LEGAL!?!!!! I WANT POT TO BE LEGAL!!"

[Samurai_Pooh]

"Can I be the minister of sex?"

[Mastiker]

"Can I be the minister of sex?"

Follow up question: "Come aaawwwwwn please?"

[Swede]

I pretty much want to know how soon he's planning on implementing his whole helping students pay for college in exchange for community service. That sounded neat.

[Jehu]

Also like 70% of these are "IS POT LEGAL?!? WHEN WILL POT BE LEGAL!?!!!! I WANT POT TO BE LEGAL!!"

Hahaha that's my favorite part about it. The internet seems to love the herb... I wonder if that'll have any impact on Barack's policies. Most people say it won't, but I could see him at least removing some of the penalties (if not in this term, then potentially in a second).

[Beowulf]

I pretty much want to know how soon he's planning on implementing his whole helping students pay for college in exchange for community service. That sounded neat.
The current rumors speak that 100 hours of community service (including things like Americorp and Red Cross) nets you 3000$ to either pay for school or pay off student loans.

[Swede]

That's what I remember him saying, I'd just like to see it implemented asap :)

[japanat]

The current rumors speak that 100 hours of community service (including things like Americorp and Red Cross) nets you 3000$ to either pay for school or pay off student loans.Really? That's $30/hour! Hell, I bet some UAW workers are thinking that sounds pretty good, right about now.

[Beowulf]

Really? That's $30/hour! Hell, I bet some UAW workers are thinking that sounds pretty good, right about now.
Yeah my girlfriend flipped her lid over it. Not only will she be getting money to pay off her loans, but it was work she was already going to have to do to get into graduate school.

[ミュー]

I think if that's implemented then it should be competitive and the accepting schools should not expect the government to pay the full amount. I would like free money too, but economic decline is not a good time to be cranking out this sort of a plan.

Looks like it already closed :/

I want him to have all of the foreigners at the American embassy fired. They are rude and unhelpful despite their purpose being to help Americans residing in Japan. The Japanese employees don't require housing and are generally more helpful. The only person who gave two shits and a fuck about getting me a voter's registration form was the Japanese fee collection clerk.

Protip: some mid-level American Embassy employees live in 150m2 apartments in Akasaka.

[Charrington]

The current rumors speak that 100 hours of community service (including things like Americorp and Red Cross) nets you 3000$ to either pay for school or pay off student loans.

Obama and Biden will establish a new American Opportunity Tax Credit that is worth $4,000 a year in exchange for 100 hours of public service a year.

IIRC it's one hundred hours each year of college and 50 for each year of high school and possibly middle school. It works out to below minimum wage either way. It's a bit unclear if the program is compulsory, I'm interested in finding out about that.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

How does $4,000 for 100 hours come out to below minimum wage? What am I missing? And as far as I know, the 50 hours for high school students is planned to be required for graduation. Good idea, in my mind.

[Digital Masta]

I think if that's implemented then it should be competitive and the accepting schools should not expect the government to pay the full amount. I would like free money too, but economic decline is not a good time to be cranking out this sort of a plan.

Looks like it already closed :/

I want him to have all of the foreigners at the American embassy fired. They are rude and unhelpful despite their purpose being to help Americans residing in Japan. The Japanese employees don't require housing and are generally more helpful. The only person who gave two shits and a fuck about getting me a voter's registration form was the Japanese fee collection clerk.

Protip: some mid-level American Embassy employees live in 150m2 apartments in Akasaka.


By foreigners wouldn't that be the Japanese staff? Seeing at its the American embassy and all.

[Charrington]

How does $4,000 for 100 hours come out to below minimum wage? What am I missing? And as far as I know, the 50 hours for high school students is planned to be required for graduation. Good idea, in my mind.

IIRC it's one hundred hours each year of college and 50 for each year of high school and possibly middle school.

As far as the compulsory bit goes, theres a question as to whether or not the plan consists of indentured servitude, or even extortion. By that I mean the lack of a high school diploma will seriously impede anyones viability for employment, leaving them to the same jobs as an undocumented worker. Not graduating high school isn't a practical option for anyone. What's the deal with the federal government trying to force people to help their communities anyway? This is the United States, in my state you can shoot someone if you feel threatened by them. Forced collectivism doesn't scream liberty.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

Indentured servitude or even extortion? It's not as though the government is requiring high school students to go out and pick up trash every day during high school. 50 hours of community service a year is not much at all and I don't really see the problem with it; you could more than complete that amount of hours by doing a couple of hours each week at the local animal shelter petting kittens. If you already have a part-time job or are doing worthwhile extracurricular activities I can understand not wanting to do the community service. However if all you're doing with high school is going to classes and going home, I think you should be doing some sort of volunteer work.

Along with learning academics, shouldn't a high school degree show that the graduate has learned more skills so they can contribute better to society? That would explain why for example not having one in the first place can be very detrimental. 50 hours of community service a year could show they have some experience in the world outside of the high school classroom. Again, it's not even that much.

[Charrington]

Indentured servitude or even extortion? It's not as though the government is requiring high school students to go out and pick up trash every day during high school. 50 hours of community service a year is not much at all and I don't really see the problem with it; you could more than complete that amount of hours by doing a couple of hours each week at the local animal shelter petting kittens. If you already have a part-time job or are doing worthwhile extracurricular activities I can understand not wanting to do the community service. However if all you're doing with high school is going to classes and going home, I think you should be doing some sort of volunteer work.

Along with learning academics, shouldn't a high school degree show that the graduate has learned more skills so they can contribute better to society? That would explain why for example not having one in the first place can be very detrimental. 50 hours of community service a year could show they have some experience in the world outside of the high school classroom. Again, it's not even that much.

Obviously it would be beneficial to the students and community. Given this there's really no reason to make it compulsory. The issue is the principle behind the matter, not the effects or requirements. It meets the definition of involuntary servitude which is illegal under the constitution and various court rulings.

[Roxie]

if it is not compulsory and merely highly attractive how can this fit any definition of involuntary servitude?

[Charrington]

if it is not compulsory and merely highly attractive how can this fit any definition of involuntary servitude?

As I outlined above, a high school diploma is a necessary document for employment. Withholding it unless you do x, y and z for the federal government is economic coercion. Economic coercion into service is involuntary servitude.

[Roxie]

I'm sure that doesn't apply to GEDs...does it? ;)

[Charrington]

I'm sure that doesn't apply to GEDs...does it? ;)

I'm not sure what you're implying.

[puzzo]

if it is not compulsory and merely highly attractive how can this fit any definition of involuntary servitude?

My high school made us do community service, and I sure as shit didn't want to. Highly attractive =/= should be mandatory. there are always those who would rather not, and they shouldn't be punished for having a difference in opinion.

I think what he is saying is if its voluntary, cool beans. But if its mandatory, what the fuck.

[Roxie]

I'm not sure what you're implying.
I am implying that I am not very sure, but would it apply to GEDs? You're saying how important an HS diploma is, but I think we're forgetting that GEDs are also very important. My high school made us do community service, and I sure as shit didn't want to. Highly attractive =/= should be mandatory. there are always those who would rather not, and they shouldn't be punished for having a difference in opinion.

I think what he is saying is if its voluntary, cool beans. But if its mandatory, what the fuck.
Yes, I understand what he's saying, thank you. :)

[Beowulf]

As far as the compulsory bit goes, theres a question as to whether or not the plan consists of indentured servitude, or even extortion. By that I mean the lack of a high school diploma will seriously impede anyones viability for employment, leaving them to the same jobs as an undocumented worker. Not graduating high school isn't a practical option for anyone. What's the deal with the federal government trying to force people to help their communities anyway? This is the United States, in my state you can shoot someone if you feel threatened by them. Forced collectivism doesn't scream liberty.
Hahahaha, look at how dumb you are.


My high school made us do community service, and I sure as shit didn't want to. Highly attractive =/= should be mandatory. there are always those who would rather not, and they shouldn't be punished for having a difference in opinion.

I think what he is saying is if its voluntary, cool beans. But if its mandatory, what the fuck.
Seriously? You're honestly going to sit there and go, "Awww I but don't wanna help my community!" What were you doing that so damn important that your time could not be infringed upon? Heaven forbid it should be spent helping others CAUSE THAT'D BE COMMUNISM AMIRITE!?!

Keep in mind that there are many first-world nations that either require a form of mandatory military service, or governmental service. Even if this new plan was completely mandatory (protip: it isn't) you'd still be getting off pretty goddamn easy.

[puzzo]

I just dislike the idea of ANYTHING being mandatory, even more so if I'm not being paid for it.

I was relating this to my high school where if we didn't do the community service we didn't get our diploma.

And it has nothing to do with communism, I just don't give a fuck about my community.

Like I said if it's optional and has incentives, cool beans. but if its mandatory and has no real incentives other than "help out the community" then they can go fuck themselves.

[Charrington]

Hahahaha, look at how dumb you are.


Seriously? You're honestly going to sit there and go, "Awww I but don't wanna help my community!" What were you doing that so damn important that your time could not be infringed upon? Heaven forbid it should be spent helping others CAUSE THAT'D BE COMMUNISM AMIRITE!?!

Keep in mind that there are many first-world nations that either require a form of mandatory military service, or governmental service. Even if this new plan was completely mandatory (protip: it isn't) you'd still be getting off pretty goddamn easy.

Is there any flaw in my argument that you can point out or are we just going to go with menial insults? Listen Trotsky, there's a reason other first world governments have stricter programs and we haven't for centuries. America is not Europe and Europe is not America. One of the many reasons people emigrate here is to flee conscription. Really, why would I want to help my community when there could be shitheads like you in it? What if the government takes over your house to board soldiers in it? It could be worse, they could have raped your wife, right? Even if they did, it totally could have been worse. Stop complaining, it's for the good of the country. I'm not saying the current government is anywhere near totalitarian, but with people like you running around with such simple, peasant mentalities and the domino effect policies like these have it's not an unattainable reality.


I am implying that I am not very sure, but would it apply to GEDs? You're saying how important an HS diploma is, but I think we're forgetting that GEDs are also very important.

I'm not sure. There are the alternatives of private school and home school (Though I believe they both have to be certified by the government) but there are two problems with this off of the top of my head. 1.) The schools are funded by tax money. Every child of a tax paying citizen has the right to an education at a public school, and the curriculum should rightfully be decided by the parents. I don't imagine the government sending me a refund if I have a child that doesn't go to public school. 2.) Public school is the only option for many parents, as evidenced by their continuous existence through lackluster performance. Home school requires an investment of multiple hours each day and money for the teaching materials. Private schools usually have tuitions that the majority of the population can't afford.

[Jetsetlemming]

Seriously? You're honestly going to sit there and go, "Awww I but don't wanna help my community!" What were you doing that so damn important that your time could not be infringed upon? Heaven forbid it should be spent helping others CAUSE THAT'D BE COMMUNISM AMIRITE!?!

Keep in mind that there are many first-world nations that either require a form of mandatory military service, or governmental service. Even if this new plan was completely mandatory (protip: it isn't) you'd still be getting off pretty goddamn easy.
Not all of us have the free time and transportation to participate in community service for no reason.
Also forcing high-school students to do free labor for the state to graduate seems pretty goddamn wrong, personally. Their parents are already paying for the education via property taxes.
The voluntary work for college money is great, but forcing kids to do 50 hours of service per year to get their high school diploma is some bullshit. I lived out in the middle of nowhere in highschool, and my time outside of school was almost completely dominated by working minimum wage part time to help my family or studying and reading on my own because school moved so slowly through subjects. My time is not my government's to spend.

[Mastiker]

Is there any flaw in my argument that you can point out or are we just going to go with menial insults? Listen Trotsky, there's a reason other first world governments have stricter programs and we haven't for centuries. America is not Europe and Europe is not America. One of the many reasons people emigrate here is to flee conscription.

Because Europe is the worst thing ever amirite? And "centuries" only counts because we've been around for over 200 years, but come on. It wasn't until the fifties and sixties we stopped lynching, and I think it was the twenties or so that we allowed women to vote? Yeah, something like that.

We may be doing better, but we haven't had the loosest programs for "centuries" - unless of course, you're white, male, and middle-aged. Oh, and rich.

Really, why would I want to help my community when there could be shitheads like you in it?


Shitheads like him? He's not the selfish brat who puts themself first before their community.

By this logic, nobody should help out anybody else. I mean, if that were true, cops wouldn't stop someone from getting shot because they didn't like their shirt. Or firefighters wouldn't put out a fire because they didn't agree with their political stance. You're not going to like everyone you help out, but if everyone thought the way you do, nobody would get shit done.

What if the government takes over your house to board soldiers in it? It could be worse, they could have raped your wife, right? Even if they did, it totally could have been worse. Stop complaining, it's for the good of the country. I'm not saying the current government is anywhere near totalitarian, but with people like you running around with such simple, peasant mentalities and the domino effect policies like these have it's not an unattainable reality.

Let's take a look at this little exchange.

Charrington: Mandated community service should not be enforced.
Beowulf: Of all the things to be mandated, community service is the least of your problems.
Charrington: At least they aren't raping your wife.

Yep, makes sense to me.

What's wrong with a little community service? Is it too much to ask to give back to your community? Seriously?

Community service is simple. They don't expect much out of you. I've raked lawns, trimmed hedges, cleared paths, assisted assembling playgrounds, etc. Take a Saturday off once a month and help people out. They get free labor, you get free exercise. What's the big deal in that?

[Samurai_Pooh]

I'm all for public service and whatnot, but compulsory universal education is fucked-up enough as it is without adding anymore compulsory shit to it. Like any teenagers really give a rats ass about improving their community, they would do a shitty job.

as long as its not compulsory, then it is a great idea.

[Charrington]

Because Europe is the worst thing ever amirite? And "centuries" only counts because we've been around for over 200 years, but come on. It wasn't until the fifties and sixties we stopped lynching, and I think it was the twenties or so that we allowed women to vote? Yeah, something like that.

We may be doing better, but we haven't had the loosest programs for "centuries" - unless of course, you're white, male, and middle-aged. Oh, and rich.



Shitheads like him? He's not the selfish brat who puts themself first before their community.

By this logic, nobody should help out anybody else. I mean, if that were true, cops wouldn't stop someone from getting shot because they didn't like their shirt. Or firefighters wouldn't put out a fire because they didn't agree with their political stance. You're not going to like everyone you help out, but if everyone thought the way you do, nobody would get shit done.





What's wrong with a little community service? Is it too much to ask to give back to your community? Seriously?

Community service is simple. They don't expect much out of you. I've raked lawns, trimmed hedges, cleared paths, assisted assembling playgrounds, etc. Take a Saturday off once a month and help people out. They get free labor, you get free exercise. What's the big deal in that?

How many times will I have to restate this? The work isn't the issue, it's the principle. Compulsory service is not American. As far as the selfish bit goes, I'd wager that would apply to you. You're willing to compromise national law and values so as to gain some auxiliary benefit from the unpaid labor of others.

Because Europe is the worst thing ever amirite? And "centuries" only counts because we've been around for over 200 years, but come on. It wasn't until the fifties and sixties we stopped lynching, and I think it was the twenties or so that we allowed women to vote? Yeah, something like that.

How is this relevant to anything in this thread? Where did I imply anything negative about Europe? As I said, the US and other countries are the US and other countries for a reason. People emigrate for reasons. Different policies suit different people.

By the way, the service required is not conventional community service, it involves preparation for terrorist attacks and other material that by all means should be handled by the national guard.


Let's take a look at this little exchange.

Charrington: Mandated community service should not be enforced.
Beowulf: Of all the things to be mandated, community service is the least of your problems.
Charrington: At least they aren't raping your wife.

Yep, makes sense to me.

This was quite obviously a metaphor you illiterate nutsack. I suggest you bow out of the conversation and go work on your reading comprehension.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

Not all of us have the free time and transportation to participate in community service for no reason.
Also forcing high-school students to do free labor for the state to graduate seems pretty goddamn wrong, personally. Their parents are already paying for the education via property taxes.
The voluntary work for college money is great, but forcing kids to do 50 hours of service per year to get their high school diploma is some bullshit. I lived out in the middle of nowhere in highschool, and my time outside of school was almost completely dominated by working minimum wage part time to help my family or studying and reading on my own because school moved so slowly through subjects. My time is not my government's to spend.
Personally I think that if a student is already working part-time or is doing some sort of extracurricular activities that take up their time outside of class then they shouldn't be required to do the community service. I don't know if Obama feels the same way because this is all mostly based on vague "agenda" issues from his website. Hell he even seems to have altered his idea of it:

Expand Service-Learning in Our Nation's Schools: Set a goal that all middle and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year. Develop national guidelines for service learning and give schools better tools both to develop programs and to document student experience.

That sounds like it'd be fairly flexible in practice to me. Also, I think it's inaccurate to assume any community service would be physical labor, as I said it could be walking dogs for a couple of hours every week at your local animal shelter. To respond to Charrington, I'm not seeing how this is un-American (And him calling Beowulf "Trotsky" didn't help him) and frankly if all you're doing in high school is going to class (Especially if it's public) then you're just a lazy whiner if you won't do 50 hours a year, which isn't even that much.

Of course this plan hasn't even come to fruition and I doubt it's even been written in detail, so arguing about it would be more beneficial when the specifics can be taken into account. It seems pretty reasonable from the website.

By the way, the service required is not conventional community service, it involves preparation for terrorist attacks and other material that by all means should be handled by the national guard.
Cite.

[D-pad]

Yea, sauces plz.

[Charrington]

To respond to Charrington, I'm not seeing how this is un-American (And him calling Beowulf "Trotsky" didn't help him) Cite.

I never really alleged this was communism. If it was the fat old men that support it would be forced to participate and wouldn't support it. Hitler, Judas, or Satan fit just as well as Trotsky. As far as the cite goes, it's from Rahm Emanuels book "the plan". Doesn't really matter anyway, as I said the issue is the principle and not the specific details. Dpad, shouldn't you be sexually harassing your male classmates or something?

I shouldn't have ate that burrito, I think I'm going to vomit and that's a waste of beer.

[D-pad]

I shouldn't have ate that burrito, I think I'm going to vomit and that's a waste of beer.(I'm cool. I drink.)

:clap:

[Charrington]

:clap:

Believe it or not it's actually a pretty popular drink among those of us that aren't still in high school.

[Mastiker]

How many times will I have to restate this? The work isn't the issue, it's the principle. Compulsory service is not American. As far as the selfish bit goes, I'd wager that would apply to you. You're willing to compromise national law and values so as to gain some auxiliary benefit from the unpaid labor of others.


I guess you're the Patron Saint of America.

You make it sound like I sit on my balls while others do the dirty work that I, Lord of all that is Unamerican, set out for them to do. A job needs to get done, and people need to do it. If you want to do your part and help out, awesome. If you want to sit back and let others do the work that needs to be done, awesome. If you're gonna complain about it, pick up a shovel or shut up.


How is this relevant to anything in this thread? Where did I imply anything negative about Europe? As I said, the US and other countries are the US and other countries for a reason. People emigrate for reasons. Different policies suit different people.

America hasn't always been the cornerstone of righteousness in the centuries we've been around. The only thing we had going for us was the fact that we had more "freedoms" than any other nation. For the majority of those centuries, the only time you had any influence was if you were white, male, and rich - or at least, not poor.

What's one more policy that is the opposite of bad?


By the way, the service required is not conventional community service, it involves preparation for terrorist attacks and other material that by all means should be handled by the national guard.

And I've raked leaves that should be handled by the local groundskeeper. What's your point?


This was quite obviously a metaphor you illiterate nutsack. I suggest you bow out of the conversation and go work on your reading comprehension.

Oh my. I make one bad joke and I'm an illiterate nutsack. I fear what you are going to call me next. I mean... the internet is watching. I don't want to appear stupid in front of the internet god forbid.

[D-pad]

Oh Snap! He said I'm young. What a weak fucking burn. I've given this forum way better ammo than that. Or, am I just not worth your time? Well, you dumb piece of shit...lemme ask you something.

How the hell can you not support mandatory community service?

YOU FUCKING BENEFIT FROM IT! IT'S LIKE SAYING "Hey, the government is requiring me to not run into fast-moving traffic. Fuck that." IS THERE SOME SORT OF REFLEX IN YOUR BRAIN TO OPPOSE THINGS, BECAUSE SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO SEE THAT SOMEONE IS TRYING TO HELP YOU.

"Oh, but mandatory ANYTHING is UNAMERICUNT".

Well, aside from pointing out things like anti-trust laws that are a little ridiculously obvious...

How the fuck can you oppose change when things are falling to shit like this?

We are a country of apathetic, greedy, fat people. Drastic change is nessasary or we will, not very slowly, die off.

Revolution is necessary to keep things alive. This America is on it's last legs.

So, maybe a few of Obama's policies are a little reminiscent of Europe...
WE NEED IT! I hope we go from this slow trickle of sense to a gigantic river of it and come out The North American Alliance. A completely socialist country without ass hats like you.

[Charrington]

I guess you're the Patron Saint of America.

You could say that. Others have.

You make it sound like I sit on my balls while others do the dirty work that I, Lord of all that is Unamerican, set out for them to do. A job needs to get done, and people need to do it.

Except no. The unemployment rate is 7 percent and jobs continue to drop consistently. The last thing we need is more people doing more work.

If you want to do your part and help out, awesome. If you want to sit back and let others do the work that needs to be done, awesome. If you're gonna complain about it, pick up a shovel or shut up.

What part of the word compulsory do you not get?

America hasn't always been the cornerstone of righteousness in the centuries we've been around. The only thing we had going for us was the fact that we had more "freedoms" than any other nation. For the majority of those centuries, the only time you had any influence was if you were white, male, and rich - or at least, not poor.

Every other country in the world has a similar history, comrade.

What's one more policy that is the opposite of bad?

Since when is serfdom the opposite of bad?

And I've raked leaves that should be handled by the local groundskeeper. What's your point?

Because mexicans and soldiers are the same thing, right?

Oh my. I make one bad joke and I'm an illiterate nutsack. I fear what you are going to call me next. I mean... the internet is watching. I don't want to appear stupid in front of the internet god forbid.

It didn't strike me so much as a joke as willful ignorance and distortion.

Oh Snap! He said I'm young. What a weak fucking burn. I've given this forum way better ammo than that. Or, am I just not worth your time? Well, you dumb piece of shit...lemme ask you something.

How the hell can you not support mandatory community service?

YOU FUCKING BENEFIT FROM IT! IT'S LIKE SAYING "Hey, the government is requiring me to not run into fast-moving traffic. Fuck that." IS THERE SOME SORT OF REFLEX IN YOUR BRAIN TO OPPOSE THINGS, BECAUSE SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO SEE THAT SOMEONE IS TRYING TO HELP YOU.

"Oh, but mandatory ANYTHING is UNAMERICUNT".

Well, aside from pointing out things like anti-trust laws that are a little ridiculously obvious...

How the fuck can you oppose change when things are falling to shit like this?

We are a country of apathetic, greedy, fat people. Drastic change is nessasary or we will, not very slowly, die off.

Revolution is necessary to keep things alive. This America is on it's last legs.

So, maybe a few of Obama's policies are a little reminiscent of Europe...
WE NEED IT! I hope we go from this slow trickle of sense to a gigantic river of it and come out The North American Alliance. A completely socialist country without ass hats like you.

For the sake of brevity I'll skip everything in this post I've already addressed.






















As far as how I can not support it, I support individual sovereignty over forced collectivism and I put my values in front of possible temporary gain. I could benefit from robbing my neighbors, instigating pogroms and fucking prepubescent girls but I don't do that either as far as anyone I know is concerned. If you're such an ardent supporter of socialism, move to a socialist country and enjoy your failed state and inevitable violent death.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

As far as the cite goes, it's from Rahm Emanuels book "the plan".
You mean that book published in 2006? What does that have to do with Obama?

Doesn't really matter anyway
Yes it does. You stated that as though it was a clear-as-day fact that is a part of your overall reason for being against this, as such it does matter. I've also posted information directly from Obama's new website that doesn't imply that it would be like that at all. You don't seem to be great at this whole debating thing.

Since when is serfdom the opposite of bad?
I don't think that word means what you think it means. Then again, you didn't seem to know what a metaphor is, either.


As far as how I can not support it, I support individual sovereignty over forced collectivism and I put my values in front of possible temporary gain. I could benefit from robbing my neighbors, instigating pogroms and fucking prepubescent girls but I don't do that either as far as anyone I know is concerned. If you're such an ardent supporter of socialism, move to a socialist country and enjoy your failed state and inevitable violent death.


Hahaha.

[Charrington]

Let me see if I can make this just a bit more clear.

[COLOR="Yellow"][U][I][B]The issue is the principle behind the matter, not the effects or requirements.

The work isn't the issue, it's the principle

Doesn't really matter anyway, as I said the issue is the principle and not the specific details.

Are we grasping it now children?

[Citizen]

Everyone in this thread shut the fuck up until you learn how to debate properly, Christ. Bunch of circular-logic-spewing, oblivious to others, closed-minded, pedantic, obtuse, slanted cretins.

This is the worst thread I've ever read in my entire life. Both sides of it.

Mods, do me a favor and actually moderate little titty-fit pissing contests like this from now on. I'm sick of our GD being an intellectual wasteland of ad hominem, strawman, fallacies, and spam. I can see why most of our good debaters aren't around anymore.