Should I be pissed off about this?

[Azrael]

I wavered back and forth over whether this should be an editorial or an MB post. Either way, I have something I want to get off my chest.

When I first came to Japan, Bob Sapp was really popular. For the uninformed, Bob Sapp is a burned out football player who went to Japan and did well in the amateur fighting leagues. He also became a television icon by going on TV shows wearing nothing but Speedos, acting like a wild animal and tossing around Japanese people.

Bob Sapp is also a large black man.

So I got called Bob Sapp a lot. Students, teachers even, and random people who spotted me in the trains, in a park, almost anywhere. We both have similar facial hair, but that's where the similiarities end - he's huge, much taller and more built than I. He's also shaved, while I still have hair. It irked me to be constantly called Bob Sapp (do we really all look alike to you?) but I tried to just attest it to the fact that foreigners, especially blacks, are rare in Japan. And the Japanese are xenophobic, which leads to a certain amount of ignorance when dealing with other cultures and peoples. I tried to have patience, but I also waited for the day that Bob Sapp's 15 minutes of fame would expire, and this silly comparison would end.

Bob Sapp's time in the limelight did end. Unfortunately, instead of being the saving grace I'd hoped for, things got worse. Quick to take his place was another guy named Bobby. Bobby had already been on TV as part of another (really stupid) act involving foreigners, but he gained his independent fame much like Bob Sapp did - through the amateur fighting circuit. He became popular and started to make TV appearances. Despite being fluent in Japanese, he speaks in badly broken, almost gibberish Japanese (although you can make the point that his mistakes are intentional for effect) and in general acts like a bumbling idiot.

Almost instantly, I went from being called Bob Sapp to Bobby. Almost without fail, I cannot walk by a Japanese elementary school student without them saying "Oh, it's Bobby!" or "Isn't that Bobby?" I was on the train with some friends once, and as some high school students spotted me, they immediately starting raving "Oh, it's Bobby!" and giggling like hyenas. They talked freely about me/Bobby behind my back, assuming I didn't know Japanese and didn't understand what they were saying. They wanted to ask me to imitate Bobby's bumbling mannerisms on TV, but were too embarrased to do so in English. So they settled for imitating it on their own behind me, and laughing wildly about it. I'm usually a pretty laid back guy...it takes a lot to rile me up. But I was pissed. I had to physically change train cars, or else I would have turned around and roundhouse kicked as many as one good furious blow would connect with.

There's a playground that I pass by on my way to/from work. Many times there are kids playing there, and if they're there without fail upon seeing me they'll call out "Bobby!" and start imitating his mannerisms and laughing. Once they tried to call out to me. "Bobby! Bobby!" One cries. I ignored him. "Well, that didn't work." They observe. "Let's try something else. ...Bob Sapp! Bob Sapp! ...Well, that didn't work either. What else? Oh, Will Smith! Will Smith!"

I've swallowed a lot of ignorance while here, just attributing it to the circumstances. But this really pisses me off. Bobby's a black man like me, but that is precisely where the similiarities end - we look nothing like. And neither of us has any resemblance to Bob Sapp. I'm bothered by how easily the transistion went - one day I'm Bob Sapp, the next I'm Bobby, as if we're all interchangeable like that. I'm pissed that upon seeing me, their FIRST reaction is to link me to someone on TV who is not setting a good example. And I'm pissed at Bobby for whoring himself out to the Japanese and perpetuating a horrible stereotype.

This shit doesn't fly in America, does it? If you were in a civilized area, and somebody spots an Asian girl, and regardless of what she looked like, they were like "Hey! Lucy Liu! Lucy Liu!" someone would call them out for being racist, right?

I tried educating kids at one of my schools about it. Every day at lunch I'm supposed to do a news announcement about what's going on in my life. One day, I decided to talk about the Bobby thing. I mentioned the incident on the train and how often I hear it. The teacher voiced her concerns to me - "Your news is usually quite fun and entertaining...I'm afraid maybe this is too serious." I admitted it was a radical change of pace, but I told her it was important to me. I did the broadcast, and no one seemed to really take notice or care. Worse even, I had no less than three kids that very day call me "Bobby-sensei."

I have a response to it now. If anyone says to me "Oh, Bobby!" I greet them with "Oh, Ichiro!" no matter size, shape, or gender. It's a horrible thing to do, but this is what I've been forced into. Everytime I've used it, the reciever's countenance turned rather unpleaseant. Now maybe you understand how I feel. I used it on a boy today, and he stopped and said "I'm not Ichiro." "Well, I'm not Bobby." I told him. I think he got the message.

I absolutely hate being called Bobby. Am I overreacting? I don't know. I've tried to understand a lot and be patient and open or whatever, but every time I hear "Ooh, Bobby chau?" it makes my hairs stand on end.

[d0nk3y]

You have every right to be pissed. They suffer from a lack of exposure to African-Amerians - its just like when my cousin from middle-of-nowhere Missouri said an asian kid moved into the county high school. Everyone called him Jackie Chan, even though he didnt look anything like him. They would even pick fights with him to try to get him to show off his martial arts skills, which the poor kid didn't even have.

They are simply uneducated. In a country like America, Racism is a huge deal because every race imaginable lives in it. In Japan, a vast majority of the population is Japanese, so racism like this isn't seen as 'racism'.

Not everyone in Japan can be so dim-witted to honestly mistake you for some guy on TV. I say you should give your "Ichiro" retort every time someone calls you Bobby. The education has to start somewhere.

Either that, or get a shirt that says "I AM NOT BOBBY"

[Arvynia]

I don't think you're overreacting.

I can see why it'd start grating your nerves. 0.o;;

There's only so much patience one has....

[akitaka]

You're a patient person, I think. While I do think it's ridiculous for any angry person to react adversely with violence (verbal or physical), I do condone in retortion of subject such as your "ichiro" line. It's simple exchange. Your scenario witht he boy works well since it makes a blunt point with pacifism; no need question yourself about it.

In case of failure, wrap the kid around your shoulder and give them a few American-made swirlies in the nearest obenjo. Bobby isn't so nice now, is he?

[scan2001]

I think your handling the situation very well. It to bad that you have to use the Ichiro reference but if it the only way you can get your message across, then keep on doing it.

[soulinhand]

what up az? I am also a Jet here in Japan. Also a black man, but of mixed descent.

i am brown like caramel, and have no features like bobby or bob sapp. i had the same problem as you and i came up with the same solution. i also got tired of the abuse from japanese of all ages. I just started calling people all kinds of random names, and they soon got the point. also got help from elem. school teachers. it helped, but didnt squash the problem. so i just ignore them and ask other student or surrounding people, who the hell is bobby? and they get the point for the mean time. i have patience but a man can only take so much. in jhs, its all good. they dont disrespect me like that and i often tell them i dont like bobby. they think he is kimoi and i agree. but i do love hard gay and make a fool out of myself but on my grounds. i have a great relationship with my students (only jhs now). some students make jokes about bobby but they are just messing with me. but hopefully i can become famous and expose japanese people to an intelligent, funny black person with many different attributes. until then, i think this site is great so i commend you. keep up the good work. holla

[Scott]

While I do think that it sounds like more than anyone should be asked to endure, I'm not entirely sure if your response would be the best one, given the circumstances. While many Japanese may think of black men as bumbling Bob Sapp- or Bobby-type idiots, I don't think it would do much good to react in kind. Perhaps instead of thinking that black men are bumbling idiots, they will go on to think that black men are bumbling idiots AND rude oafs.

In addition, since Ichiro is so revered in Japan, I'm not sure whether or not it could be construed as a two-way offense - one against the person you're talking to and one against one of the most revered people in the nation.

I'm not saying that it's something that you should simply put up with or ignore, but I do think that it is something you should deal with with a bit more tact. It sounds childish, I know, but there's no reason to 'sink to their level', so to speak. Perhaps it would be better to simply say "I am not Bobby/Bob Sapp" politely and walk on. Even if you're not a national role model, you're still a role model of a sort in being one of the few black men that they will meet. It's a stupid job that nobody asked you to take, but that's how the dice roll, I guess.

Not very fun to read, I know, but... it's what I think.

[Henjin]

I don't think anyone blames you for being upset. When I was in Japan, I had a little of that, though obviously to a lesser extent... It seemed like everywhere we went people were just staring, and I heard them saying things or laughing a lot. My friend in fact, doesn't ever want to go back to Japan, and I think that had a lot to do with it. If you're used to blending in in the US, and you're not comfortable when people stare and laugh, you can have a really bad time in Japan. Especially if you stick out even more than the average foreigner. I'm Mexican, and not bone-thin like the average Japanese male, so I stuck out pretty well. It was uncomfortable for me, and definately the low part of the trip, but at least the people that I met and got to know made up for it...

[Darkblade]

Bob actually surprised me the last time I saw him. I expected his "go for a win by TKO in the first 10 seconds or run out of power trying" bull-rush..... which he did.... BUT he seems to have picked up some stamina, and some TECHNIQUE!! if he keeps improving his technique, he will make for one really really formidable opponent.. ;) Bob's your Uncle.

[Dana]

Man that totally sucks Az!! I can't say I know what you are going through. I get called alot of different names, but never really one particular one on a consistant basis. I have been called everything from Julia Roberts to Angelina Jolie. I dont even remotely resemble either of them.

I do know what you mean though about the kids talking about you, thinking you can't understand them. That shit really pisses me off. I never know how to react in a situation like that, usually I just ignore it. But on bad days it can make me want to kill.

One thing that kind of (stupidly) hurt my feelings the other day was the fact that a friend of mine went into the gym in my town and saw some of my students there. She told me that they thought she was me. Now I have been here for more than six months, I really thought my students see ME now, not just some token foreigner. I don't look anything like my friend aside from the fact that we are both white and female. She has long curly hair, a rounder face than mine, but still they thought she was me. Am I really stupid to be kind of hurt by this? I dunno... I guess I need to stop taking things personally here. Sometimes I really feel like I am not a person anymore, but an idea. A representation of a person, if you will.

Foreigners have feelings, too!!

[Idlethought]

call em jackie chan, jet li, or bruce lee and see how fast their mouth closes and their smile changes to a frown

[Pierrot le Fou]

You are 300% over-reacting.

- They're kids
- They are not trying to insult you
- They're kids
- Foreigners have a FAR worse impression of Bobby/Bob Sapp than the Japanese do

Japanese TV makes fun of people -- foreign and not alike. Look at a show like that 'Stamp 8' show where they get 6 people dressed up as foreigners who get 2 guests, roll a die, and then whack the person it shows up as with paper fans. While the 6 main guys are charicatures of foreigners, complete with crappy Japanese and whatnot, when there are Japanese guests on the show, they make equivalent fun of the Japanese characters.

Look at the amount of self-effacing Japanese comedy characters. Look at the number of comedians whose job it is to make fun of Japanese celebrities (Guitar Samurai anyone?) -- and it's all in good fun. The batsu game on the other day with the bamboo kendo swords on the ass if you laugh during the day is a perfect example. But you aren't protesting that watching Japanese people getting whacked with bamboo swords and laughing their ass off, seeing people dressed up in screwed up things and making fun of Japanese old women, Japanese sports players, and Japanese students and teachers is bad towards Japanese people...

It's just Japanese comedy. The roles these people hold are roles as entertainers, and the Japanese style of comedy, barring a crappy comedy bit, tends to be self-depricating humour, or humiliation. Bob Sapp is paid to smack the shit out of Japanese people AND THEY LOVE HIM FOR IT. They don't think, "Oh, he's a stupid black man" they think, "Wow, he's fun to watch" which is why he's still on TV.

Yes, Japan is xenophobic. Yes, they don't have the cultural sensitivity of the US. But when someone like Bennet in the US comes on and states how ridiculous a caller is for making a statement as entirely absurd as stating that all black babies should be aborted in order to lower the crime rate, and gets labeled a racist because of it, maybe too much cultural sensitivity is just as bad as the alternative. The difference is your cultural background in contrast to the culture here.

Kids will be kids. They haven't met a black person before. They're kids. They don't walk up to strangers and start talking generally. My kids didn't know what to make of me either, and they would call me George Arias (a Hanshin player) when I first came, and other nonsense. Did that bug me? Sure, at the beginning, then I realized it was a way of them relating to me, because they're kids who just don't know better. And the more they started to relate to me for whatever reason, the more that it made me human, something that isn't entirely divorced from their life and their upbringing.

Az, they're KIDS. Do you remember being 7 years old? Do you remember the crap you used to think about adults? Do you remember believing in Santa and the Easter Bunny as if they were empirical fact? Do you remember respecting your parents' opinion as absolute because you didn't know any better?

They're KIDS!

Bobby and Bob Sapp are not on TV to make black people seem dumb. They're on TV to entertain. Bobby has great Japanese, and the Japanese know it and love it. They don't think he's stupid. The fact that Japanese people think you're at that level is a COMPLIMENT. The Japanese also, for your information, love Tuffy Rhodes of the Tokyo Giants (formerly Osaka Buffaloes) because he has been here for 7 years and can speak passable Japanese.

But it's really easy to over-react, to look at it from an American perspective, lose any sight of the issues really at hand, and get pissed off over nothing.

It won't help to get upset, it won't change anything to get upset, and getting upset may very well do more to convince those kids that black men are big scary people than 10 years of television does.

They're KIDS Az...

[Idlethought]

guess you didnt read it the whole way through, it wasnt just the kids it was everyone

[I ARE 1031]

I have a response to it now. If anyone says to me "Oh, Bobby!" I greet them with "Oh, Ichiro!" no matter size, shape, or gender. It's a horrible thing to do, but this is what I've been forced into.

That was the same idea I was going to post for dealing with that problem, but I think "Ichiro" is being too polite. I don't know who Ichiro is but he is Japanese it seems, you need to find a well known dumb Asian. If you can, one that ISN'T Japanese. Jakie Chan isn't dumb but if you called them "Jackie Chan" they would get very angry since Asians have that thing about not being confused with other Asian nationalities.

[Darkblade]

I was called Ken in the past (cause i was as strong and ugly as Ken Shamrock). Now although I dont appreciate being thought of as someone they felt was "ugly", I was consoled by the fact the person they were relating me to was someone that could probably pound them into hardened asphalt.

Az, ask yourself this, what if they began calling you Rick James :)
Im betting the first thing that goes through your mind is Wayne Brady :D

[Scott]

That was the same idea I was going to post for dealing with that problem, but I think "Ichiro" is being too polite. I don't know who Ichiro is but he is Japanese it seems, you need to find a well known dumb Asian. If you can, one that ISN'T Japanese. Jakie Chan isn't dumb but if you called them "Jackie Chan" they would get very angry since Asians have that thing about not being confused with other Asian nationalities.

Suzuki Ichiro, who is practically a god among men in Japan for being a great baseball player who now plays for the Seattle Mariners. It's also a very common Japanese name meaning 'first son'.

Personally, I /still/ maintain that doing this is not good and does nothing to change the image that Japanese people may have of black people. Tit for tat is not the way to foster good will.

[Idlethought]

i dont think its about fostering good will, its about teaching em a lesson

[I ARE 1031]

They're KIDS Az...

Shut the hell up Ethan Hawk! (Family Guy reference) ;) :p He said it was more than "JUST KIDS", and they are trying to insult him. Why else would you laugh hysterically after saying "Bob Sapp"? You are not in the situation and can't imagine that you are. Since it isn't happening to you it seems trivial. That is one thing people have to learn to do, put themselves in other people's position. Think if a bunch of people that you teach and even complete strangers kept calling you by the name of somebody you hate, (especially when they act like a fool) how disrespectful that would be. That would get on anybody's nerves. It is still racism, because they are making generalizations either way, those same KIDS are going to become racist adults. That's how it works my friend, whether it is Japan or the US, maybe Az can teach them something besides English...

[Scott]

i dont think its about fostering good will, its about teaching em a lesson

There's no reason you can't teach them a lesson politely. In a place like Japan, foreigners are going to be role models, examples of what foreigners are like. It sounds dumb, but if you're around kids and you act in a certain way, and you're practically they only exposure to a real life foreigner they have, then that's what they will think of foreigners.

[Jess]

They're kids, but I think Az's reaction is perfect. The one thing I notice about Japanese racism is they don't realize they're doing it. They don't put themselves in the foreigner's place. And if they're never forced to, they never will improve.

I lived in a small town in Kagawa-ken on the island of Shikoku for 2 years, teaching JHS for JET. I'm a large woman. Fat, and tall, with red curly hair and the typical ghostly-white freckled skin most redheads have, and large Dutch feet.

So I got the weight crap. I had people walking up and grabbing my arm to run their hands over my skin because I'm so pale, and white is beautiful in Japan (a paradigm shift for me, let me tell you!). I had total strangers walking up and running their hands through my hair and exclaiming "Ningyo no mitai!" over it. I was told I was like a man because I wouldn't take shit from people. In one comical case an old man walked up to me and started speaking in rapid-fire Sanuki-ben. When I didn't understand, he grabbed my hand and started writing kanji on my palm with the tip of his index finger, as if I look Chinese, that kanji make sense when his Japanese was too difficult!

On most days, you try to ignore it. It's often not worth responding. On the bad day, when you're sick of ignoring the stupidity, you try to find some way to respond. I totally understand Az's secret desires to do serious bodily harm to the jerks, and I applaud his self control ( I lost it once in the teacher's room...not violent, but yelling. I felt better while doing it, but like a prize idiot after. ), and think the Ichiro comeback is actually quite good. It gets the point across, but isn't really confrontational. I consider his response and effort to TEACH these KIDS (and maybe a few adults!) to consider exactly what they're saying to him...and what that indicates about what they think of him. The easiest way to teach these things is by analogy, which Az is doing well.

I was in Japan during 9/11. It was very rough on me - I actually watched it live because the English langauge evening news came on at 10pm., which is 9 am New York time. Six months later I was playing pictionary with the new ichinensei, and the word the kids had to draw was "America". We'd have four teams drawing the word all at once on the board, and three of the kids drew approximations of the American flag. One drew a plane flying into the World Trade Center. I was shocked...it hit me like a fist in the gut. I think I took longer than many to get over 9/11 because I wasn't in the States, surrounded by other Americans...I had to hold the horror and anger and sadness in, and so I think my emotional trauma lasted longer. Anyway, I was really hurt by this, and the kid was smiling. He thought he'd been clever, that's all. With the help of the teacher, I explained how shocking that drawing was for me...and how painful. I used the analogy of drawing a mushroom cloud if the pictionary word had been "Japan". That got the point across - analogy is a very useful tool, that I think Az used very well.

Another great analogy tied in to Japanese ignorance of other cultures - Belgium, in this case. The CIR in our town was Timothy (pronounced "Timoty"), a Belgian guy. He came to our class to talk about Belgium, and he was asked, after his little speech, if he liked Belgian waffles. He rolled his eyes and said not that much...and the entire class exploded in uproars of disbelief. Timothy started talking about steroetypes (he has excellent Japanese, darn him!), but the kids weren't listening. Finally the teacher, my only male English teacher, and probably my favorite of the lot of them, found a way to get the kids to listen: He explained that many foreigners had stereotypes about Japanese...like this one: He stood up in front of the class, made a deep bow, said "Gomen", and pretended to commit seppuku. The class, Timothy, and I all laughed at his funny little act, but I believe Nakamura-sensei really helped those students learn something that day - better than any serious explanation would have.

Wow, this hit a nerve! I could obviously go on all day, but I'll just say this: I think Az's response was great. Especially as, while he may embarass the offender a bit, his real goal is to TEACH them. Isn't that why JET exists in the first place?

[I ARE 1031]

Suzuki Ichiro, who is practically a god among men in Japan for being a great baseball player who now plays for the Seattle Mariners. It's also a very common Japanese name meaning 'first son'.

Personally, I /still/ maintain that doing this is not good and does nothing to change the image that Japanese people may have of black people. Tit for tat is not the way to foster good will.

Giving somebody a taste of their own medicine isn't the same as what you are thinking about. Tit for tat to me sounds like "two wrong's don't make a right". Although, if the person that call's him Bob Sapp doesn't know they are wrong they have to understand how damaging it really is and even when Az made that announcement for the school people still called him Bobby that same day. The person who was called "Ichiro" (a Japanese baseball god, waaay to generous Az but maybe you should draw the line being the mature one and all) was probably more affected than the whole school Az tried to talk to. The teachers even discouraged the announcement, showing how serious a problem it really is.

[I ARE 1031]

There's no reason you can't teach them a lesson politely. In a place like Japan, foreigners are going to be role models, examples of what foreigners are like. It sounds dumb, but if you're around kids and you act in a certain way, and you're practically they only exposure to a real life foreigner they have, then that's what they will think of foreigners.

There is no reasoning with you it seems. Where did they get the idea to make "Bobby" who, according to Az is fluent in Japanese, speak broken Japanese and act like some kind of animal? I think you're not getting it. You can't sit there and reason with every ignorant person and show them the light. You need to get the point across in a quick manner. Az has found a way, and so far it seems to have been effective.

[Invictus]

You're fighting a losing battle, Az. Sarcasm is often lost on the Japanese. I get the old "hashi wa jouzu desu ne" all the time, and I know folks who've countered by telling the Japanese "fouku wa jouzu desu ne." To make a long story short, they didn't get it. Unless you stop everyone who calls you "Bobby" and explain why it's a misnomer, you're just going to get a lot of quizzical looks at the "Oh, Ichiro." At the end of they day they'll slip into yukata, pour a cup of mugi-cha, and think, "wow, that guy who looked like Bobby sure was a crazy gaijin..."

That said, I do applaud you for trying to do something about the prevailing attitudes. :P

[I ARE 1031]

You're fighting a losing battle, Az. Sarcasm is often lost on the Japanese. I get the old "hashi wa jouzu desu ne" all the time, and I know folks who've countered by telling the Japanese "fouku wa jouzu desu ne." To make a long story short, they didn't get it. Unless you stop everyone who calls you "Bobby" and explain why it's a misnomer, you're just going to get a lot of quizzical looks at the "Oh, Ichiro." At the end of they day they'll slip into yukata, pour a cup of mugi-cha, and think, "wow, that guy who looked like Bobby sure was a crazy gaijin..."

That said, I do applaud you for trying to do something about the prevailing attitudes. :P

Yeah Az, listen to this guy. That is the attitude it takes to make a difference. We should just give up on everything, statistically those Japanese kids don't become fluent in English so you should stop teaching them. Forget finding a cure for AIDS or Cancer because another disease will emerge after you find a cure for them and it may be even more severe.

[Ante]

You can't change them. Could you change your attitude then? Question - is there any Japanese person in Japan who doesn't call you with names other than yours? If there is, focus to them. Would Moeko call you Bob Sapp, or would The Ultimate Sweetness say "Hi Bobby!" - I really doupt it.

You seem to be very emotional person. So don't just hold all that shit inside you or you'll suffer as you've noticed! Talk to your friend, talk to someone who'll listen. Next time when some ignorant idiot calls you Bob or Bobby just shout as loud as you can with smiling face (if, after all that crap, you can) - "My name is JEFF, what is yours?" (in Japanese). The counter attack method doesn't sound a way to deal this issue at all. You're not stupid - right? So don't get inside your shell (I'm not talking the shell from "The Ghost in the Shell" but the barrier we tend to build around us in cases like this).

I remember similiar stuff happened here in Finland years ago when refugees from Vietnam arrived here. Naturally they were called as Bruce Lee or something similiar so you're not alone.

[Azrael]

It's hard to describe the feelings/reactions I get when I hear "Oh, Bobby!" I was putting up with the "Bob Sapp!" the best I could, but the Bobby thing really gets under my skin. I think part of it is how easily interchangeable we seem to be.

And it isn't just kids. Adults probably have the same reaction, but the difference is that they don't verbalize it. How can I assume that? Get a Japanese person drunk enough to where they will talk, and you learn lots of things. I've been called Bobby in A-Bar in Kyoto by men and women in their 20's more times than I care to count.

When they call me Bobby, it's not a term of endearment. When a stranger uses that label on me, there's no way they can know that I understand Japanese to the level where I can make verbal gags like Bobby does. Nobody would randomly walk up to a Japanese man wearing a suit on the street and ask him to do some Hiroshi. Nobody would walk up to a Japanese man wearing a Yukata and ask him to do some Guitar Samurai. Why do I get Bobby? Because we are both black men. I'd much rather hear random shouts of "kokujin!" on the street.

I've tried to do the outreach and education system. Like I said, I did the one school-wide announcement about it. I've told my students that it bothers me. I've told my English teachers, and had them explain in Japanese to the students so there would be no doubt about it. Doesn't stop the problem. In fact, I have kids who will make it a point to call me Bobby because they know it gets under my skin. But you know what, I call a kid Ichiro and the message gets through. Ichiro may be a national hero, but they can figure out the context. I'm dealing with a wrong with a wrong, but do you know what? I call a kid Ichiro, and he never calls me Bobby again. And I can see by the look on his face - he finally gets it.

Kids are kids. Sure. But you know what? They'll get older, but the attitude and ignorance won't change. I was in a supermarket once buying lunch. I was stading in an aisle, when I noticed a little girl skipping down it on the other end. She looked up, noticed me...froze right in her tracks, and immediately turned around and ran to her mother. She hid behind mommy until I was out of sight. But anytime our paths happened to cross, she'd stop whatever she was doing and run and hid behind her mother.

The kid's attitude is one thing. I wasn't even upset about that. I was more upset about her mother's reaction - she knew what was going on, no way she didn't. But she just ignored it. Continued looking at the soba noodles, as if her little girl weren't cowering in fear behind her at the mere sight of another human being. "C'mon honey, it's just another person", "Don't be silly, there's nothing to be afraid of", something, anything would have been a chance for education and growth. Instead, the situation is met with indifference, is ignored, and ignorance continues.

That little girl will grow up, and continue to casually browse the frozen foods as her little girl runs away from someone who's a little different than her.

[stsparky]

Getting mad doesn't solve anything. And gladhanding the clueless and saying "I told your girlfriend/wife I was Bob Sapp last night so let's not spoil her fantasy" with a giant smile and frantic winking will only feel good a couple of times. You're better than Bob Sapp or Bobby. I did enjoy calling Sumo students 'chibi' though ...

http://static.flickr.com/17/19945312_f44933222b.jpg

Japanese folks ask me if I'm George Lucas all the time - I apologise and explain I'm Steven Spielberg.

http://static.flickr.com/23/27862121_ac976b9385.jpg

More irritating are Californians who ask if I'm Michael Moore who has 120 pounds on me. Those I tell I'm Matt Groening. You just have to deal with the curious. Ask them if they realise how backwards and rude they sound.

- Sparjky

[Jess]

Re: the little girl in the grocery store, I had a similar incident, except the mother pulled her young son behind her as I walked by with my basket of groceries.

I wish, oh how I wish, I knew how to say: "I'm not that hungry, lady."

The automatic assumption that gaijin are too stupid to understand that they're being mocked is frustrating as hell too. My favorite scene ever...a friend who was much more fluent in Japanese than I, and had aspirations to be a voice actress was in a bar with some friends. Unlike me, she is not overweight at all. I would be very happy to look like her. And some Japanese salarymen made snide comments about her weight and started laughing. She turned around and in her best male/gangster voice, shouted "Nan da tou!!?!!". Two of the men ran out of the bar, mortified. The best moment ever.

[EIJI]

First of all, I want to say that I’m not happy to read your post and apologize to you as Japanese.
It is true that ordinary Japanese presume big black guy as Bob sapp, Bobby. And Kids would call you that name in front of you.

I've got a few things to tell you about this.
The kids just want to attract your attention. They never ever look down on you, because they LOVE Bob sapp and Bobby.

Actually, many Japanese loved Bob sapp and now love Bobby.

You are unpleasant to watch Bobby to be laughed on TV every day.
But that is his job like other Japanese comedian. Of cause he is not a comedian,
but he is acting his role consciously like Japanese Ninja actor in Holly wood.

He has a good character.
I love Bobby’s character and I love your intelligence and sense of humor too.

Sorry my bad English.
This is my longest English post.

[Jess]

First of all, I want to say that I’m not happy to read your post and apologize to you as Japanese.

Not all Japanese are like this - not by a long shot. I lived in a very inaka area of Japan, and as many people were fascinated and interested in knowing me as a person, as were rude and full of stereotypes. I have many friends from that small town, and I love Japan. I can't wait until I can afford to go back to visit. My dream is to take my family there for a vacation, and show them a little of my life there. I wouldn't trade my two years in Japan for anything.

That being said, Japan is very different from the United States. The deeper you dig into the culture and life of Japan, the more you see the differences between the two. The differences are difficult to get used to, and often frustrating. As the foreigner, I viewed it as my responsibility to try to fit in - to try to understand. Usually, I could do so. After a while, though, those differences create frustration, and I would have to vent.

I would complain about Japan all the time when I called home, not because I disliked Japan, but because I needed to vent those frustrations that had built up. My family and friends would ask "Well why do you stay if you hate it so much?", but I didn't hate it. I loved it. I just had to expel the "poisonous humours". :)

I can't claim to speak for the other JETs and former JETs here, but I think it's safe to say, for most of us, that we don't hold all Japanese responsible for the attitudes that sometimes frustrate us.

Sorry my bad English.
This is my longest English post.

Your English was easy for me to understand. It's much better than my Japanese. Keep it up!

[unoriginal_cyn]

This shit doesn't fly in America, does it? If you were in a civilized area, and somebody spots an Asian girl, and regardless of what she looked like, they were like "Hey! Lucy Liu! Lucy Liu!" someone would call them out for being racist, right?


That happened to me at work once. It was late on New Year's Eve and the customer was likely loaded at the time. Still, not cool to hear "Hey! Lucy Lui!" shouted across a restaurant. But instead of someone calling them a racist, I got called Lucy Lui by the rest of staff from then on.
So if I got a little annoyed about that, which never really happened again, I think Az has every right to feel pissed off being called Bob Sapp/Bobby/Will Smith (Boy, is that ever stretching it!) on a regular basis.

[Scott]

There is no reasoning with you it seems. Where did they get the idea to make "Bobby" who, according to Az is fluent in Japanese, speak broken Japanese and act like some kind of animal? I think you're not getting it. You can't sit there and reason with every ignorant person and show them the light. You need to get the point across in a quick manner. Az has found a way, and so far it seems to have been effective.


Horrors, I disagree with you, so there's "no reasoning with you". I'm apalled that I have an opinion, so please forgive my behavior!

It's not like they have Bobby in chains and feed him only when he does what they want - he's conscious of what he's doing and does it for some reason or another, most likely either for the fame or to entertain.

I never said you should reason with every ignorant person and 'show them the light' (nice ad hominem there), but rather that you should, instead of attacking the model with retorts, try to be a better model yourself.

[atomiton]

that's true eiji. many have/had impression that all japanese watch anime.
or call some of them sushi-san
or jackie chan
or make comparisons to another asian nationality.
there's lots of this that happens in small-town america... which is equivalent in homogenousness as japan, right?

[more cheerios]

The only thing to do would be to beat up Bobby.

But in all seriousness, I understand how you feel. I grew up in primary caucasian neighbourhoods. I tended to get called "Pocahontas" a lot. And not just from the kids, either.

One time, a little girl said I couldn't join their club because I was brown. So she's just a kid? It's not her fault? You know, she said it to me completely innocently. There wasn't a hint of hate in her voice. Sort of a, "mommy told me so" tone of voice. It's about ignorance and we can't allow people, children or not, to behave that way.

[mediocre]

Even better, make the accusation that they are korean.

[NERD]

Even better, make the accusation that they are korean.

HEYYYYYYYYYYY Drop that.

[Damicci]

I wouldn't sweat it.
I am 6'4" and I got all kinds of stares and what not when I went to visit japan.
But have never been approached negatively most just tried to speak english to me or said random things in Japanese.
I would say it is just product of minimal exposure to everyday African Americans.
Most of what they see for African American is media.

Just let it go. :rolleyes:

[hapacheese]

Do you have a right, as an American, to be pissed? Yep. It's racist, it is potentially degrading, and frankly, shows a lack of respect. People wouldn't shout at other Japanese people that sorta resembled celebrities.

But, should you accept it? Well, that's more debatable. Is it your duty as an English teacher (or our duty as individuals) to change their culture? Because it is due to their culture. Judgments on good/bad aside, it's the way it is. We have no control over the way they think... Hell, we have no control over the way Americans think. To them, you're a source of curiosity, simply becase you *are* different. And being different is a double-edged sword.

A lot of times, with kids in particular (as pierrot has pointed out), they will call out these differences in jest as a means of showing their friendliness toward you. Is it appropriate? Not in America. But, you're in a different world... Not that I need to explain that to you of all people :)

I think the way you're dealing with it (calling everyone Ichiro) is actually a good way of teaching those around you to treat you with a little more respect. But, it's something that you will have to do every time you get new students, because it's a part of the culture...

Just my two cents.

[DJ_one]

Hi Azrael,

Next time someone says, "hey Bob" or anyone else they think you may be co's you're both Black, turn around and say "yes, what do you want?", heck you may even end up signing some autographs.

[Marie]

As a black person, I'd feel pretty damn offended if someone labeled me like that. Then again, that's Japan, and they know less about us than the backward hicks here do in America. I feel for you, but you can't save the world on this one.

[Pierrot le Fou]

You're being thin-skinned and overly optimistic about America.

Ever been to the deep South? Or to the middle of nowhere? I have been singled out, stared at, whispered about, by FELLOW AMERICANS because I was either in the South, or in the middle of backwater Maine or New Hampshire. How do you think they'd treat a Japanese? Outside of Boston where I grew up, when I stated I was going to Japan, my neighbors said, "Just don't marry a Japanese girl! There are plenty of good Americans for you here!"

But hey, you know what? Let's ignore the fact that no matter WHERE in the world you go, there will be bigots. Let's ignore the fact that the concept of bigotry in Japan is very different from the one in the US. Let's ignore the fact that people have to walk on eggshells around black folk in the US lest they get labeled a racist.

And that's bullshit. To the nth degree.

I have told you before, Eiji is stating it as well -- the Japanese people I know LOVE BOBBY. This is something they enjoy. They aren't making fun of you, calling you stupid, assuming you are actually Bobby, it is just a way to bridge the gap between the fact that you're black, and the fact that you're a real person, so they relate through someone famous that they know.

Would this happen in the US? FUCK YES! How many times have you met people who refer to Asian folk as 'oriental' or everyone as 'Chinese' without really thinking or caring that there's a difference? Maybe out on the West Coast it doesn't happen often, but I'll be fucked if it doesn't on the East Coast.

As far as them being kids, the more you let it get to you, and the more they KNOW it gets to you, the more they'll do it. THEY WANT YOU TO PAY ATTENTION TO THEM! They're kids. I teach in elementary school primarily, and have done so for 2 years. I have had to put up with more shit than you ever will have to. And y'know what? The more that I let shit get to me, the worse it got. Now I just ignore the kids being little shits, because the attention feeds the behaviour, and they try to relate to me as a human because they know that if they say 'good morning' in English I'll respond, but if they shout 'eigo no ossan!' I won't.

Ditto with 'ohashi ga joozu' comments -- these people don't know what to say, and they figure this is an interesting topic of conversation. If you treat it as such, it reinforces the behaviour. If someone compliments you with 'ohashi ga joozu' or 'nihongo ga joozu' just say 'ie ie' and move along. That's the Japanese way to answer, and it will end up making them shuttup about it.

The harder you fight, the shittier you'll feel, and the less you'll understand.

The next time someone says something that pisses you off, let it roll off, and respond Japanese-like, and chances are they'll either piss off, or try talking to you another way. When I say I'm from America to someone in a bar, usually they go through the usual slew of stereotypes. If I try to inform them they're wrong, and tell them the truth, I get nowhere. If I ignore them, then they try to talk to me as a HUMAN instead of an American. Talking about America was their way to try to get talking to me, and if it works, they'll try it on someone else.

Responding with sarcastic remarks is a dead-end. It just won't work. This is NOT the US, and using American strategies of dealing with shit like this will just fail. You are in Japan, acknowledge it, act like it, and things WILL get better. Ignore it, pretend that by using American mores and whatnot things will get better, and it will only piss you off more because there will be no change.

[Henjin]

I have a friend from Texas who didn't think the term 'Chinaman' was offensive. lol

[Frankey-eh]

Would this happen in the US? FUCK YES! How many times have you met people who refer to Asian folk as 'oriental' or everyone as 'Chinese' without really thinking or caring that there's a difference? Maybe out on the West Coast it doesn't happen often, but I'll be fucked if it doesn't on the East Coast.

Yes, it does happen in West Coast too. Before where the white was the majority, they would call us, Asians, Jackie Chan and stuff.

By the way... Lucy Liu is a very irky example for me. Because I have a friend named Lucy Liu... exactly the same spelling. And she doesn't feel bad or anything. More or less, she enjoys it.

Although I agree with Pierrot logically, I sympathize with Azreal....Because I've been down the same road. I was the only Chinese in the entire school, and people would say things like "Hey, I saw a Chinese man eating fires on TV last night. Can you eat fire?" Or a snake... or a dog.... or needles... etc. As a seven-year-old, it was not a good experience at all.

Hmm... Az, could your hate for Bobby be partly influenced by the fact that you hate all talento in general? So that the problem is not really just stereotyping, but something more personal...?

[Henjin]

I hated that white guy on that English teaching show w/ that floating 3d guy called 'Corpus.' (Can't remember the name of the guy or the show, just the floating 3d character) Speaking Japanese so fluently and all smug in those stupid hipster hats he wears...

His co-host was hot, though... So I still watched it.

EDIT: Yeah, kinda went off on a tangent there. Sorry.

[DarkToaster]

I had the same thing while I was over there. Being a white guy with blue eyes was so weird to them. Often I'd get called "Nick Carter" or "Elijah Wood" even though the only similarity there is our eye color. Granted, it was positive (well mostly so) but it got annoying too. I'd always get stares, sometimes waves, sometimes angry looks. All because of how I looked. The novelty was cool for awhile, but it got infuriating too.

Often, during class presentations when the students were asking the usual "So what is the weirdest part about Japan?" and I'd tell them stuff like this, they'd get this baffled look on their face. Talking about that seemed to bring out the "awkward." The country is so homogenous, I guess they feel they don't have to address it. We deal with it every day in America, but over there, people don't seem to feel like it's even an issue. And honestly, if you live out in the Boondocks, odds are pretty unlikely you'll ever meet someone outside of Japan.

I don't really know what to say. A lot of it can't be undone. You (and I) are the proverbial salmon swimming upstream. Nothing you can say can really counteract a cultural meme, and I don't think sarcasm is really the answer. The best you can do is do instead of talk. Examples mean more than a snide comment here or there.

Granted, it may not stop the comments, but it will change the way a person thinks when he thinks about foreigners. Eventually, a million slight changes in their perception may add up to something.

[stsparky]

I hated that white guy on that English teaching show w/ that floating 3d guy called 'Major Corpus.' (Can't remember the name of the guy or the show, just the floating 3d character) Speaking Japanese so fluently and all smug in those stupid hipster hats he wears... His co-host was hot, though... So I still watched it. EDIT: Yeah, kinda went off on a tangent there. Sorry.
We have the DVDs :D

George Williams? George is better than most. Tons better than Thane Camus. I guess George was a DJ at some NHK exec's favorite dance bar club. He doesn't make 3 adults look moronic on TV. Tons. I'm not Black or African but I want to savagely humilate Thane on Japanese TV.
-----
Az: Next time someone asks if you're Bob or Bobby? Ask in Japanese - "Is he here?"

- Sparky

[ESPayne]

That sucks, and I feel bad for you Az. But I don't think this type of crap will ever change, in Japan or the rest of the world. I've experienced the same stuff here in Japan and in the States. I still get the "ohashi jyozu" comments here, just like I got "Wow, you speak English very well" when I was in the States. Being "half" has some advantages, but it can suck sometimes. HA! Anyway, hang in there and try not to let it get to you.

[Arkan]

Well I honestly think you're over reacting. But being kurdish, muslim and white. I get hassled by not only white people, christians but also arabs and muslims.The white christains because I was born in Iraq and muslim. And the middle easterns (mostly arabs) because I look white and I'm kuridish.

Also my name is apparently hard to pronounce. It's Arkan. AR-CAN. Like a pirate talking about a can.

My home teacher who i've had through my four years of highschool keeps calling me ARKON. At first I started to correct her but she just didn't get it. After four years she still does it. Last week when she called my name, I just simply acted like there was no Arkon. That worked for one day then she got back to saying it wrong. I just take it with a smile (i curse in my head).

Guess you'll have to do the same.

[Azrael]

I don't get why some people don't like my Ichiro response. I mean, Ichiro is a Japanese hero, after all. Japanese people love him. Americans love him. Hell, I like Ichiro! My kids should be pretty happy to be identified with such a popular icon.

In fact, I should start calling more people Ichiro. On my way home from work today, I think I'll stop by the playground and call out to all the kids "Hey, Ichiro-tachi!" Then they can all say "Hai!", roll up their sleeves, and do some cool batting poses. We'll all have a big laugh about it, it'll be great fun.

[Pierrot le Fou]

That co-host is so bloody hot it's infuriating. I wonder if Mr. Williams has given her the 'hi how's your mother?'

[Arkan]

What co-host?

BTW az what time is it there? I noticed you posted near after I posted.

Oh I forgot to post this last time. I was walking down the halls (this was my first year or second in highschool) and I bumped into the older popular girls. I talked to some before but they really couldn't remember my name. So one of them (this crack whore who'll end up in porn) said "I can't remember your name but everytime I see you I think of ponyboy from the filmed version of the novel "The outsiders". I was like wtf ponyboy. Listen I don't want a name that people will likely not get the allusion and refer it to a good riding instead of a book. I was also dissapointed that i didn't get the name sodapop rather than ponyboy.

I mean think about it. Just then and there i thought of some insults for ponyboy. Like "Hey ponyboy hows the cowboy riding you?"
or "Yo ponyboy how many guys saddled up on you today?"

That is of course an insult that could be coming from a person who hasn't read the outsiders.

[Scott]

At the moment it's 11:38 AM.

[YukataNinja]

Heh, when I was in Japan one girl thought I looked like Brad Pitt AND Tom Cruise. I guess thats actually a good thing to be told, but the best part is I have red hair :)

[CNagy]

Heh, when I was in Japan one girl thought I looked like Brad Pitt AND Tom Cruise. I guess thats actually a good thing to be told, but the best part is I have red hair :)

So you must look like Til Schweiger, whom I've heard referred to as the Brad Cruise (or the Tom Pitt) of German film.
http://imdb.com/name/nm0001709/

[h2orowe]

Jeez, Az, that sucks.....
I get hassled all the time for being white, in California, which is actually funny to me. I'll just go into a sort of short reason: White people gave people of ethinicities shit in the past, hell, even if I FIRMLY believe in every form of equality, I'll still take some "BRO DUDE, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO BRING YOUR BANJO TO SCHOOL AGAIN (referring to my ACCOUSTIC GUITAR)" and laugh it off.

I hope to teach in Japan, as a real teacher, not just an assistant, and I can't wait to get bagged on, I've been bagged on alot, nor do I care "Hey Don Vito"-some guy I don't even know.
I mean Az, I can fully understand what you mean, but think about it....
Today after school this Cambodian/Chinese kid said something to me cuz we were talking, and than my friend (sort of friend) says "Hey you sorta look like William Hung" and he looked NOTHING like William Hung... and mind you... this is Garden Grove a.k.a. "Little Saigon" but she still doesn't get it.

Prejuidice as small as this, shouldn't bother you, like they said it's just a way of relating you to a celebrity, but if it bugs you so much, don't say anything back, and think of a funny way to respond, not in an offensive manner, like someone said, pretend to be Bobby, or you could say something like "Ahh, Bobby, me, Bob Sap, Chris Tucker, Will Smith, and Chingy all shared a bucket of fried chicken last night while going on some drive-bys" :\ just try and take the stereotype in a light hearted manner... it's not like they're purposely trying to hurt you.

Or you can push the stereotype thing even more, and saying something like "Westu Suideu" and flash a gang sign, than fake a gun and say something else in Japanese.


I can't wait til I go there and get compared to "Hey itsu Ruey Anderusonu" if they even know who the hell that is... or some other famous fat American! It'll be fun!

[YukataNinja]

So you must look like Til Schweiger, whom I've heard referred to as the Brad Cruise (or the Tom Pitt) of German film.
http://imdb.com/name/nm0001709/

Not quite.. but this is a 'silly' picture, and hince the alias
https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/inderhee/photo1/DSCF0056.jpg

[YukataNinja]

Or you can push the stereotype thing even more, and saying something like "Westu Suideu" and flash a gang sign, than fake a gun and say something else in Japanese.

From my experiance kids (especially Japanese kids?) dont get that type of irony at all, and instead interpert it as "Yeah, you're 100% right, I am Bobby. Call me that all the time and any other black guy you see."

[I ARE 1031]

I never said you should reason with every ignorant person and 'show them the light' (nice ad hominem there), but rather that you should, instead of attacking the model with retorts, try to be a better model yourself.

I have nothing to say to the first part of your post, because it sucks...LOL! JK but not really...JK! ;) Anyways...uhh how can you be a better model (or at least, how could that help?) when people judge you at first glance and even students that you see everyday and have no reason to say things like that based on your actions.

Checkmate! Game, set and match! Adieu amigo! Ciao cow! Etc.

:cool:

[mediocre]

I have a friend from Texas who didn't think the term 'Chinaman' was offensive. lol

I personally had quite the laugh from this,

and since noone else offered the quote, here is my due obligation:


"Also, dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature"





I mean, all of us have seen that movie... right?

[Pierrot le Fou]

I don't get why some people don't like my Ichiro response. I mean, Ichiro is a Japanese hero, after all. Japanese people love him. Americans love him. Hell, I like Ichiro! My kids should be pretty happy to be identified with such a popular icon.

In fact, I should start calling more people Ichiro. On my way home from work today, I think I'll stop by the playground and call out to all the kids "Hey, Ichiro-tachi!" Then they can all say "Hai!", roll up their sleeves, and do some cool batting poses. We'll all have a big laugh about it, it'll be great fun.
Save that you're doing it to TRY to be rude, while they're doing it out of ignorance. It comes through in the tone a lot. You're overreacting Az, and you're taking it out on people who just don't know better.

[Dana]

Az, I want you to know that I fell your ire, and I accept it ^_^ My opinion may not count for much but I for one think your reponse is good. It puts the person in your shoes in an indirect way.

Kids always get off too easy, in my opinion. Their education in the real world should start the moment they enter it, and they enter it on that first day of school. And, from what I have read, you work in a middle school. 13 to 15 year olds are not children anymore, they are young adults and should really be learning tolerance...

[Quartermaster]

How would they react to "Me So Sawee"?

[h2orowe]

Hao so?

Cho Berigu.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Have you ever worked with kids Dana? Do you have ANY concept of how much social/intellectual/physical/emotional development goes on during elementary school?

My first graders can't read katakana, or work with numbers over 10.

Think about that.

My sixth graders do ethics classes (basic ethics).

To suggest that kids who are 6 years old should be treated the same as 13 year-olds is to ignore the fact that they're kids. They're immature -- LIKE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE!

They are NOT aware of the bigger complexities of the world, and wouldn't understand why you're mad at them if you threw a fit about something they said. There are times they know they're doing something bad, but you can smell it on 'em when they're doing it. Calling Az Bobby is a cry for ATTENTION, not an intentional jab. When my kids call me 'baldy' I know THAT'S supposed to piss me off, but I just sternly tell them it's not polite, with an entirely non-joking face (or get the teacher to), or ignore them, and they learn that it's bad behaviour.

Az is a foreigner. There are few foreigners in Japan. To expect kids to know better when it comes to foreigners is silly, because of the lack of interaction and concept of whether or not certain things are okay or not towards the foreigner.

They're little kids.

[nice gaijin]

I'm not so sure that it's out of rudeness, but rather that he's trying to get the message across that he doesn't like being called Bobby. So far it seems to be the most effective way he's found to actively stop this kind of behaviour; I've found that responding to ignorance (especially good-natured ignorance) with indifference or silence is not as effective in getting them to change their attitudes. I think what he's doing isn't ill-natured as much as trying to put them in his shoes and get them to empathize with how it makes him feel (if only a little bit, since not every foreigner calls them ichirou).

As an aside, at first I had a really low opinion of Bobby at first and actually felt sorry for him (my god he's being parading around as a complete dumbass for these people's amusement) but I later found to my surprise that he's quite funny (that statement was really out of left field, what the hell is he saying??) and I was laughing right alongside my Japanese friends. Until now I wasn't entirely sure how sincere his language deficiencies were.

[Henjin]

That co-host is so bloody hot it's infuriating.

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so... She's part of one of the strangest memories I have of my trip to Japan... Basically, the night I finally hit up the jihanki for some sake, I was talking back to her on the TV... I don't remember what I was saying, but even if I did, I probably wouldn't post it here... For some reason, I found her crappy English accent alluring... 「ゼアー　アー　トメイトス　アンド　カーロッツ　アンド　ジングス　ライコ　ザット。」

EDIT: 加藤夏希 (Katou Natsuki)ですね。

[Azrael]

Regardless of whether it's a response, or me doing it on my own without having been provoked, I think everyone can agree that me calling Japanese people Ichiro in general would be very bad. You could view it as culturally insensitive, right down to bloody racist.

So then, why would it be okay for any Japanese person to call me Bobby?

It is a very stupid behavior. We can say Japan is isolated, xenophobic, ignorant, etc, but if you bottom line it, those are all just excuses, and it is a bad behavior no matter how you slice it.

Again, "Ichiro" was my last response. I tried saying in a pleasant manner "Hey, I'm not Bobby!" They laugh and do it again. I tried saying it seriously. Some get the point, others realize they have a button to push and do it more. I ignore it, they continue calling me Bobby until they give up thinking "Oh, he doesn't understand Japanese/doesn't know who Bobby is" and try it again the next day. I say "Bobby? Where?" And this they don't get at all.

I respond with "Hey Ichiro!" and they get it. You can see it on their faces. "Hey, I'm not Ichiro, I look nothing like him!" It's not a pleasant look - they don't like to be called Ichiro. If it bothers them, why can't the same thing bother me? The kid realizes "Hey, I didn't like that. Maybe I shouldn't call him Bobby." And then they stop. I haven't offended them, but made them realize what their actions are doing.

At the Ghetto School, the WORST student called me Bob for a year plus. He did it specifically to piss me off. I went from telling him casually that I'm not Bob, to telling him seriously, to ignoring him all-together. My reaction honestly didn't matter - he took great joy in calling me Bob Sapp no matter what. And you can ignore it for so long, but it gets to a point you just don't want to hear it anymore. So one day, he called out "Bob Sapp!" to me as he usually does. This time, I responded to him. "Oh, Empress Michiko!" I said to him. He was surprised. "What? I look nothing like her!" "You're Japanese, aren't you?" I said back. It was quite possibly the most offensive thing I've ever said. But you know what? He finally got it. He doesn't call me Bob or Bobby anymore.

An eye for an eye sucks, and I wish everything else before it had worked...but it didn't. Ichiro gets results.

Ultimately, Japan is isolated and xenophobic, and I don't see that changing soon. And I can't stop every little kid on the street who calls me Bobby and try to give them a lesson. But if one of my students calls me Bobby, and I respond with Ichiro, then maybe he'll stop to think about what just happened. How that made him feel, and how what he said could make me feel. And maybe he won't be so quick to do that kind of thing again. If even just one kid learns just that much more about a different culture, then I would have done something.

[Ante]

Well I'll be damned - that counter attack seems to work. Nice to hear a success story* in this case as well.

*) sort of anyway

[koku]

I *gasp* agree with pierro. I'd take the higher road and not assume the worst (it's very possible that within that culture it's not inteded to be insulting at all). I'd also make an effort to continue debunking negative stereotypes of african-americans in Japan (or any place really) by not responding to their comments rudely -- however rude their comments might be ^^.

Mabye i'm just a wishfull thinking nut, but If you just responded to them in Japanese and said something along the lines of, "No. Sorry, but I am not Bobby/Bob; however, if you can call me Jeff, my real name, I'd appreciate it much more," couldn't that have just as big as an impact than returning the favor?

It does suck to be put into the situation where you have to constantly be the bigger man. And i'm sure there are some truly racist and unfair things that aren't just innocent ignorance or culture differences. Keep on fighting Az :P Just think about how little black people they do get to see, and realize how important of an influence you can be for other people. It may seem like a big burden, but I'm SURE you can think of many people that you've surprised or helped become open minded. Sometimes you can't please everyone ^^. And I do empathize with your "hate" for people who just feed a stereotype or give a negative impression of your race -- especially people who make it to the media; they have so much potential yet they just make things worse (or atleast not better).

Oh well. ^^. If it was me, I'd probably just focus on the positive, because I'm sure there's many.


EDIT:

....Nope.

Read my posts again. I've tried that in spades.

:( I guess some kids will be kids. What about saying a comment like this to adults? I'd hope they'd understand. Perhaps research if it's really meant as an insult or not. That's hard though. You'd know your environment better than I anyhow ^^.

[Azrael]

Mabye i'm just a wishfull thinking nut, but If you just responded to them in Japanese and said something along the lines of, "No. Sorry, but I am not Bobby/Bob; however, if you can call me Jeff, my real name, I'd appreciate it much more," couldn't that have just as big as an impact than returning the favor?
....Nope.

Read my posts again. I've tried that in spades.

[Dana]

yes i have worked with kids, and in fact i used to be one. not that i really remember that much about that time in my life. actually i work with kids on a daily basis, i teach elementary school two days a week, middle school the other three days.

I have never been a huge fan of young children. When I took this job I was told I would be working only in junior high school, but here I am with little rugrats two times a week. Little kids have always seemed to like me though, maybe its because I treat em like any other person rather than coddling them, who knows?

[kitsunepixie]

I know I sure had a lot of misunderstandings and stereotypes about people of different races when I was younger, and if it wasn't for people of those different races teaching me through setting a positive example, I would still have those misconceptions. Getting the point across through analogy does seem to work better than other methods, but rather than just directly calling them "Ichirou," maybe you could say, "Calling me Bobby is like me calling you Ichirou, you know that?"

[Pierrot le Fou]

Regardless of whether it's a response, or me doing it on my own without having been provoked, I think everyone can agree that me calling Japanese people Ichiro in general would be very bad.

Of course people here agree with you -- because they're coming from the same cultural direction that you are without understanding the society you're in.

You have other Japanese people to compare them to than Ichiro. They don't have other black people to compare you to.

You want them to just take you on face value as a human being when they've been exposed to nothing but Japanese people their entire life?

Imagine you going about your daily life, and having an alien immigration to this planet. Suddenly your JTE has been replaced by an alien that looks nothing like any person you've met, save the Aliens in 'Contact.' If you were to say, "Oh, you look like those aliens from Contact!" it would be the same as what these kids are saying. I realize the example is incredibly absurd, but so is the lack of exposure these kids have had to non-Japanese people!

You grew up in SAN FRANSISCO Az... It's not like tolerance is a foreign word there like it is in Japan. Suggesting that the Japanese be as tolerant as a San Fransisco native is like suggesting that the Pope convert to Judaism to see how the Jews feel about his rants. As in it's not happening any time in this reality.

The Japanese have a very insular culture that is VERY homogenous in language and culture (if not actual race), and they are very reluctant to expose/accept ideas from the outside. And that's their way of doing things. Now you think that sucks, so do I, it's a product of having been brought up in a liberal environment which applauds innovation, change, and acceptance of new ideas. They don't think it's crappy. And while you may hate it, you're in their country.

You're trying to attribute YOUR motives for saying things on things THEY say. That just doesn't work. They aren't calling you Bobby to make you mad, they're calling you Bobby because you're black, and it helps them relate to you. I guarantee you that the worst kid in school continued to do it because it pissed you off and got a rise out of you more than any concept of understanding why it pissed you off.

I sincerely doubt that even your 'Princess Michiko' example made him understand in the slightest, it probably just shut him up in the interim.

You have GOT to grow a thicker skin if you're going to stay in this country, or else you will go entirely 600% out-of-your-mind insane. This country is NOT going to change, it is NOT going to adopt your ideas of political correctness, and it is NOT going to listen to your ideas of how it should be. You WILL be stared at. You WILL be compared to people you look nothing like. But that's part of living here, and it even happens to us white folk.

What pisses me off is how this is a black thing. You think that it's somehow worse because it's Bobby and Bob Sapp than some baseball player who can't speak Japanese, and Thane Camus who is an absolute clown. Or do you forget that Thane Camus did the 'dumb foreigner' act with Bobby when they were both doing variety shows when we came?

Do you honestly think that somehow being black is discriminated against here an extra amount? Honestly? Because that blows my mind. Fuck, I was called Bob Sapp when I came here. Sure it was a joke, but it still doesn't change the fact that regardless of skin color, big = bob sapp.

You're not Japanese. You're not native to this country. And people aren't comfortable with that. They aren't comfortable with me either. Rather than me going off my rocker and trying to teach them of the evils of their world view, I defer to the way they settle problems, either with over-polite passive aggression, ignoring it, or whatever. And it works. I don't get harrassed anywhere near as much as you seem to anymore, and I don't really let shit get to me, because I know it's out of my hands.

'Shoganai.'

The more you worry about this and blow it out of proportion, the more miserable you will be. They are relating to you the only way you know how, and you assume it's American style racism. That's just silly.

EDIT: Okay, it seems like some people are still baffled here. We're talking about a country with a population that is less than .1% non-Asian. The majority of even the foreign population is some form of Asian. White and black folk are truly few and far between. Most Japanese people have likely never had a real conversation with someone who has a different skin-colour than them, and that is a whole boatload different from folks who live in the West and interact with people who speak their language but look different on a daily basis.

My girlfriend was worried that her grandfather (who is 85) wouldn't talk to me because he has never spoken to a foreigner before, and only has met them in war, or through the TV. That isn't exactly something that's going to make him very endeared to me.

We are not talking about blatant racism, we're talking about having no concept of 'race' beyond your own. It's a WHOLE different box o' donuts.

[Varia]

It does suck to be put into the situation where you have to constantly be the bigger man.

hah, you are hilarious. He is bigger than like 99% of the country, which isn't really helping him out much.
________
ROOR BONG PICTURES (http://roorbongs.org)

[Ceirnian]

Of course people here agree with you -- because they're coming from the same cultural direction that you are without understanding the society you're in.

Here's the question I have for Az. Do you care if the Japanese understand why it's bad, or do you just want them to shut the hell up? Because I think going for latter is reasonable. Why cave in and be passive when you can do it in a way that makes you feel better? It's like getting back at them for it, and it get's the job done (assuming he just wants them to stay silent).

[decswxaqz]

Personally I'd just ignore them. I've been called lots of things either to do with my hair style, my name (numerous references to films), or how I look. I ignore them because the people calling me those names are stupid. They don't know me as a person, don't want to know me as a person, and as such I don't give a hoot to what they say.
I think the same thing can be applied to your situation Az. They don't know you, or other foreigners. They call you because they think it's funny and that it'll get to you, which it is. As you said (or pierrot) said, Japan is xenophobic and it shouldn't be used as an excuse. But it does explain why they are doing it. They aren't used to us and as such don't know how to treat them. Some are overly polite, some rude. But just because they aren't used to foreigners, doesn't mean they should treat them like dirt, or any different.
Whilst your tatic seems to be working, and a good idea even if it's something I wouldn't do, it does reduce yourself. Since you can't hide or subdue your anger anymore, I guess it's the only thing to do. Instead of calling them a Japanese person, try calling them a famous Korean person, or to add salt to the wound, Chinese (insert Jackie Chan clip from Family Guy Season 4 Episode 9 :)). Calling them a different Japanese person (especially one who is idolised) seems kind of silly to me. But you say it works because they think they don't look like him, but the way my mind would see it, is that you are complimenting them. But it seems to be working so go with it if you have it I guess.

As pierrot le fou suggested try to grow a thicker skin, although it seems you've tried to grow one. It may seem cowardly to ignore it, but that's what you should do IMHO. I often see on TV, that when kids do something wrong or want attention, you should just ignore them. Praise them for good behaviour and ignore the bad. I think that's how you should handle this. Your efforts might be working on the people you meet, but it isn't going to change Japan. They might like our styles/lifestyle etc, but they don't want to adopt our 'international way of thinking' (at least most countries have this). Only once they start to think outside their country will they start to realise they need us and much as we need them, and insulting us (either intentionally or not) will not work.

[Dana]

its hard to ignore something when its thrown at you multiple times a day for a couple years.

[more cheerios]

Okay, these are not little toddlers. These are pre-teens. They know what they are talking about. They know it pisses them off. To ignore them and let them be is absolutely retarded. My mother ran a home day care, I grew up with different children around me. I've studied things dealing with ECE and this much I know: you want to know why the youth of today are so ignorant? Because we fail to get offended and let them off as "children". They aren't children, they are almost teenagers. They have coherent though, speech and actions. They know what they are doing, they know how to push your buttons and they do it on purpose. They need to be reprimanded, if not, they'll continue to follow through with ignorance. Azrael has every single right to be upset, this has been going on for far too long. I'm amazed he's been this calm for this long, because if I were him, I would have snapped by now.

"Because they are children and they don't know what they're doing" is absolute bullshit. They aren't morons, they know exactly what they are doing. Any child by the age of four knows the differences between right and wrong, no matter what the race or society.

[Azrael]

snip

You don't understand, and I don't know if I can properly explain it. ...I hate that line, it's such a cop-out line...but in this case, I can't think of any other way to say it.

I know it's something born out of isolation and cultural ignorance. I know that when a kid calls out "Hey Bobby!" he/she isn't thinking "Hey Darkie, bumble around for my amusement!" The Japanese aren't prone to don white hats, grab some twine, and jump in the back of the ol pickup and start roaming the countryside. I know it happens because they just don't know any better.

I know every foreigner is subject to this kind of thing. Every one gets likened to some celebrity they probably look nothing like. Everyone gets hit with some silly cultural misconception, like the Belgian waffle thing posted earlier. That just goes with the territory of living here.

I'm not trying to make it a race thing. I'm one of the last persons on Earth who would play the race card. I freely joke around about such things rather than take them seriously. But race does come into play. Simply by being a tall black man, whatever misconceptions of assumptions or downright silly treatment foreigners get hit with, I get a little bit more of. I'm not being extra sensitive to this, that's just how it is.

...You've only really seen me in and around Kyoto city, huh? Down here it's a little different. Every foreigner who's gone out in public with me has noticed and commented on how whatever attention they get, I get more of. Our friend from Boston who recently went back...remember how he hated riding trains and such because of the staring and the conversations about him. He used to say to me all the time "Dude, I don't know how you put up with it...whatever I get, you get FAR worse."

It's not like a few kids have started calling me Bobby and that's set me off. Everything that most gaijin deal with while being here, I've dealt with and more. I have no intention of getting into some kind of "what kind of silly treatment have you been subject to?" pissing contest, but I face A LOT of these cultural misconceptions. And I've accepted all of them as "well, they just don't know any better." I even came to terms with the Bob Sapp thing.
I don't know what it is about Bobby, but it strikes a chord. I'm not even sure if it's the Bobby thing on its own, or just the straw that broke the camel's back. And I tried to accept this one too. But hearing it five times a day, everyday, from five completely different people (this is not even an exaggeration), it'll wear down the nerves of even the toughest person, I guarantee it.

[Pierrot le Fou]

No, they REALLY DON'T! We're not talking about Americans, or Brits, or any other Western Country, we're talking about a 99.9% Asian country. One where people look really damned similar.

You're attributing WESTERN values to Japan, and they don't have western values.

[Azrael]

(pt 2 cause the forum is being a pain right now...)

So yeah, it bothers me. But even then, it's not like I blow up, pull aside every kid who says "Oh Bobby!" and give them a lecture on cultural understanding (if I did this, this would literally be all I did all day). Back during the Bob Sapp era, at one point it was really bad at the Ghetto School. So I casually talked about it with a few of my English teachers, who casually talked about it with some of the students. I did the news thing at the one school, but it wasn't anything like "Japan is BAD BAD BAD!" I did it from the "expanding cultural awareness" route, and since this school is always doing cultural awareness activities, I figured this was the one place where it had the best chance of going over well.

But that's all I've done. I haven't blown up, or raised a stink at any of the schools, or the Board of Education. I get irked/annoyed when I hear it, but that's really all that happens. I made this thread to vent and help blow off some steam. Isn't much else I can do.

The Ichiro Response is, from a cultural sensitivity stand point, horrible. I know that. But it's honestly the only thing I can do. If, out of the five times a day I hear "Oh, Bobby!", I can curb it at my schools and drop the number down to three or four, I'll take it. And if the kid stops to think about what just happened, and maybe even learns something from the encounter, I'll take that too.

Yesterday, one of the ichinensei boys hit me with "Oh, Bobby!" I used the Ichiro Response on him. Much like every other person I've used the Response on, his face soured with the "kimochi warui" expression. "I'm not Ichiro." he says. "I'm not Bobby." I said.

Today I went to his class. As I walked in, he looked up, smiled, waved at me, and said "Oh, Jeff! Hello!"

That's all I wanted.

EDIT
And maybe the Bobby thing wouldn't bother me so much if it were only limited to kids. Getting it from adults too is a little annoying.

[spaik]

I fully understand where Pierrot is coming from, but seriously, I think 'shoganai' is a hella copout, too. These kids aren't 6 years olds. They understand the concept of 'racism', even if its merely from some definition or their own conjecture rather than have seen it first hand. I mean, I know these kids have no malice behind their actions, but just like the socially inept fool that doesn't know that he's hurting the feelings of those around him, he's still doing damage so to speak.

Az is playing with friendly fire on and these bitches think that using grenades all the time is a good idea. I fully agree that Az is doing the right thing to try and teach these kids his perspective. Az, you feel guilty over doing the Ichiro thing because it is outright insensitive and you know that you are gonna hurt some feelings and intentionally using it, but I think that your 'solution' is also the most effective and easiest way to get them to relate to what you feel. I wouldn't hesitate a second to bust it out on everyone, especially your students. Regardless of their intentions, if you can make them just a little bit more considerate with regard to dealing with people of all kinds, you owe it to them as a teacher and as a person.

[Jess]

*points up at Azrael's post*

Exactly. It's not something you do every time...but when the situation is appropriate, it's a good teaching tool. It's only "insensitive" because it does to the Japanese exactly what they're doing to Az.

He's not doing it to hurt them (as they're probably not doing it to hurt Az), he's doing it to show them the reason it bothers him. The Japanese, being a very homogenous culture, aren't good at putting themselves in others' shoes (How could they be? They're not well exposed to others!), and this is, I think, the perfect shortcut to help them do that.

You can't change the world, but you can change a bit of it. :) Refusing to try to explain your point of view because it's a different culture is just a lazy, apathetic cop-out.

[Scott]

I think rather than 'shikata ga nai', the Japanese might say 'gaman suru'.

I don't agree with the Ichiro approach, but after hearing similar stories from other people, I have to grudgingly admit that it works, even if I don't like how it works. I still think that just ignoring it and acting like the good guy you are is better - you don't need to sit and talk with all of them, but just be a good guy. Then whenever another foreigner comes along, they might think "Hey, that guy reminds me of Jeff."

To keep your spirits up, remember that you have classes of people you've affected positively, who see you as a person (or kancho target shaped like a person), so you have accomplished something. While five or ten people may piss you off with their ignorance, look at all the people who are learning what foreigners are really like because they've met and known you.

I doubt Moeko would have done what she did for some Bob Sap or Bobby.

[raydude]

One may think "shoganai" is a copout, but when you really think about it, it is an apt phrase. Or do you really think Az is the first black person to have endured this in Japan? On the contrary, every foreigner (or every US foreigner at least) has had to deal with this since Commodore Perry sailed into Tokyo Bay and said "Dude, open up!"

Then again, shoganai doesn't really address the fact that Japan HAS changed since the 1800s. True, feminism has a long way to go but there are women in the work force. Women do get to go to school and some do make a conscious choice to work and put their career above getting married.

The point is, Az's problems probably applied to EVERY foreigner back then, whatever color you were. Even if you were asian but not Japanese. Its changing slowly. The problem (if you want to call it that) is that for Americans its not changing fast enough. That's our world view coloring our way of thinking. Everything has to be fast fast fast! Changes should be done now! Racism is so simple to point out so why not change it now!

Well news flash for us Americans. The rest of the world doesn't move as fast. In Asia in particular it moves pretty slowly. Shoganai. But move it will. Regardless of whether one man decides to use the Ichiro response or not.

[spaik]

neg on that.

its a dangerous group mentality, and also results in the the reduced efficiency of groups in everything they do. never assume that you don't make a difference, and that your one effort of the group will not be missed. everyone thinking this way results in zero effort. regardless of what speed the society changes at, instigating a change in the first place is the right choice. every single effort will help it to progress to that point. he doesn't want everyone to stop, nor to lecture everyone about it, but he SHOULD be making an effort to stop it and teach them why they shouldn't, whenever he can.

that's like saying that you shouldn't bother to go to a protest about something you feel strongly about because there will already be people there protesting that issue.

[Invictus]

raydude, I think that's been the best post on this entire thread thus far. Props to ya.

[Jess]

Well news flash for us Americans. The rest of the world doesn't move as fast. In Asia in particular it moves pretty slowly. Shoganai. But move it will. Regardless of whether one man decides to use the Ichiro response or not.

This is totally silly. One man cannot, admittedly, move a society very far (except in very rare, and often cataclysmic situations). But if every man decides he can't affect the world, and every man says "Shoganai", then NOTHING EVER GETS DONE.

Very few of us truly get the chance to change the world. But we can change ourselves, and maybe influence change in others. Societal change is the result of incremental movements and changes by individuals. If everyone gives in to apathy, then there's no pressure for change and it never happens.

Az has the right attitude. He can't change everyone. He can't even change everyone in his immediate sphere of influence. But he can TRY. Those efforts will affect people. Maybe those effects will carry on into their adult lives. Maybe they won't. But the effort is never made by anyone, the change will never occur.

I don't think Az is unrealistically expecting his "Ichiro" line to change the worldview of the Japanese he uses it on...I think Az is hoping to help them learn to empathize with other cultures. If no one tries, nothing happens. Maybe I'm just a stupid American that's too optimistic, but I think helping people understand where I'm coming from, whether I actually change them or not, is a worthwhile effort.

[Azrael]

One thing about the kids issue...

Things at the Ghetto School are BAD. Really bad. There are a lot of bad students who cause problems for everyone, teachers and students alike.

Part of the problem is that it is the school for the ghetto (for those of you who know a little bit about Japanese society: burakku). But part of the problem, I think, is that the teachers do nothing to discourage that kind of behavior.

Example. Three of the ninensei girls are awful. They do nothing but roam around the hallways and talk all period. Between every period, all three go hang out at the nurse's station in the teachers room. Sometimes, they don't bother going to class and just stay there. They're pretty loud, noisy, and bothersome.

This trio ("Breasts Girl" is one of them, for the curious...) will just sit there and joke around with the teachers. Problem is, the teachers joke back. Laugh at their jokes, and talk with them casually. Yesterday, one of them was actually sitting in her class, which just happened to be one I went to. One of the teachers who does the hallway patrol stopped and engaged her in conversation through the window.

Yeah, the teachers will still ask them to go to class and do their work and not bother other people, and sometimes they'll yell when the kids break something, but the kids don't care. The environment that exists at that school is "We can get away with it." What are the teachers thinking? It's almost just like their approach to it is "shou ga nai - that's just how these kids are."

What really kills me is that this year, some of the bad boys were good boys last year - they became friends with the bad boys and became bad as well.

These problems don't exist at the other schools. Why the Ghetto School? Sure, part of the problem IS the Ghetto, but I don't think that's entirely it. What about the kids who weren't bad before but are now? At the other two schools, I can see kids who aren't exactly the best behaved. And I know, if they were students in the Ghetto School, they'd be caught up in the nonsense too. But here, when a teacher tells them to get in line, they do. Why? What's the difference?

One day, I was in an English class, when one of the male students got up and whacked another boy on the head. It wasn't even hard, just a playful whack. Well, this teacher STOPPED class, and LECTURED that boy for a whole 15 minutes about classroom behavior. Think about that - 15 minutes out of a 50 minute class, the teacher spends giving them a dress-down over one playful whack. At the time, I thought she was over-doing it. "All this for a little head tap? What the hey? Lighten up lady! Kids will be kids!"

I understand now though. She created an environment where that boy knew he did something wrong. That whole class knew he did something wrong. And you know what, I have NEVER seen anyone smack anyone else on the head in that class since.

Compare that to today in the Ghetto School...one of the sannensei boys got up and started punching the back wall. A male teacher went to ask him to cut it out. He put up his open palm for the boy to punch, which he did, but then when he got bored of that he decided to give the teacher a few good rib shots.

What a difference.

[spaik]

word, man. shit's the truth.

as cool as you might find your students or whatever, theres a level of authority that needs to be present in the school. keep the fuckin punks in line. i agree 100%, and thats why i think your ichiro shit is perfectly justified.

as for the good boys becoming bad boys, man, that's just a social thing. you'll find that they are the same kids that they were before. the only difference is that theres a certain 'code of conduct' and 'culture' to the social circle they joined, being the bad boys. it happens with every social circle, whether its work, clubs, friends, or whatever man. as much as people tout being 'individualists', everyone has a different side to themselves in each of their different social circles. i wouldn't place too much emphasis on that shit.

[EIJI]

Do you know REALLY what "Buraku" is?
It is darkside of Japan. We can't even talk this matter in public.
If you really know about Buraku, you would know the differences immediately.
....It is NOT just a Ghetto.

[Scott]

burakumin, eta... the outcast class, right?

[Azrael]

Do you know REALLY what "Buraku" is?
It is darkside of Japan. We can't even talk this matter in public.
If you really know about Buraku, you would know the differences immediately.
....It is NOT just a Ghetto.
I know what the buraku is. I lived in it for 7 months. And I've been teaching at that school for the past week.

I know "ghetto" isn't quite accurate...but I don't know what else I could call it in English, and I don't feel like explaining it.

[raydude]

I don't think Az is unrealistically expecting his "Ichiro" line to change the worldview of the Japanese he uses it on...I think Az is hoping to help them learn to empathize with other cultures. If no one tries, nothing happens. Maybe I'm just a stupid American that's too optimistic, but I think helping people understand where I'm coming from, whether I actually change them or not, is a worthwhile effort.

I'm all for making my little corner of the world better. I'm all for people trying to make their corner of the world better instead of doing nothing. However, my main point was to try to say what pierrot is saying but in a different manner.

Ironic that your last phrase "I think helping people understand where I'm coming from" is basically what pierrot and others have been trying to do -i.e. Trying to help people understand where the Japanese are coming from.

[Jess]

Ironic that your last phrase "I think helping people understand where I'm coming from" is basically what pierrot and others have been trying to do -i.e. Trying to help people understand where the Japanese are coming from.

Ah, but you're missing the point - Az understand where they're coming from. That's why he usually puts up with the crap. But people seem to take offense when he finds an effective, quick, and accurate way to make the Japanese understand where he's coming from. As said many times in this thread, the majority of the time this happens to him, it's a product of pure, complete ignorance that their actions are causing him frustration. He's showing them exactly what they're doing. Explaining this in a conversational way is difficult, and often ignored. This method is much more...difficult to ignore, or misinterpret.

As Az has said, he deals with more of the typical ignorant crap from Japanese than I had to. Part of the reason for the JET program is the Japanese government understanding that their ability to interface with other cultures is often poor. Az is accomplishing the purpose of the JET program when he shows students exactly what they are doing in terms that are immediately understandable.

[Roxie]

Omg, this thread would be so much eaiser to read if y'all would translate your Japanese phrases for the non-otaku. :p

[Kaji]

Well, -nensei you should already know from the tutorials, all that really matters is the first part which indicates which year it is (ichi = 1, ni = 2, san = 3).

Only other bit of Japanese I can recall so far is "burakumin", which when literally translated means "black people", but is actually used to refer to the lowest Japanese citizens, not foreigners, regardless of race. Essentially, from what I recall, the Burakumin comprise those who are pissed off at the government for lack of ability to get jobs, many tend to be former factory workers who had their jobs cut in the time after the bubble burst (at which point the promise of lifetime employment started to dry up as well).

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that point, it's been a little bit. May pick through the thread later for other Japanese phrases, but I'm off to get some food for now...

[Henjin]

for the non-otaku. :p

I don't think anyone here that can speak Japanese would consider themselves 'otaku...'

[Jess]

Yeah, it has some pretty negative connotation in Japanese, according to my friends I asked. :)

Oh! Another couple of Japanese words in posts I made (though I try to keep them down) -

Gomen = I'm sorry

seppuku = ritual suicide

[koku]

hah, you are hilarious. He is bigger than like 99% of the country, which isn't really helping him out much.


I hope that was a joke; I meant something else.


EDIT: this has turned into an interest topic ^^.

So Pierro, how do YOU seperate the real "american style" racist induced assumptions/insults over the ones that come from someone who just doesn't know better?

Your way of rationalizing the behavior does help (If it's competly true). Think about it. If the person isn't really looking down on you, and he/she just doesn't know better, is there any reason to truly feel attacked?

[Godon]

I'd comment, but you have four pages of comments already so I will just say that you have my sympathy.

[Roxie]

I don't think anyone here that can speak Japanese would consider themselves 'otaku...'
I thought the " :p " would identify the comment as a jovial one, nothing literal.

except for the translations...really. I don't know what the heck y'all are talking about.

[koku]

This thread continues to rock:

If I could make a change on an individual level, I sure as hell would attempt to. If you just give up or don't bother because you feel you won't see the results of your effort now, on a large scale, or ever, then you truly won't see the "fruits of your labor."

Even if you just made a few people re-evaluate what they've been passing off as normal and common, I think that's an accomplishment already. Reading Az's story about the kid who called him Bobby only to, later in the day, smile, wave, and call him Jeff made me feel good. If I was Az in that situation, I'd most likely feel like I got something done and actually I'd remember that as significant event.

I don't know. I have no idea how thick of a brick wall it is to try and make an impact through the cultural norm and the congruency of the population, but If I could make little dents on the 'brick walls' I pass by everyday, It would make me feel like I've done enough.

I don't want to assume it's too easy nor too hard, but I'd like to believe is someone can be taught to think one way, they have the ability to learn a few more things ^^.

[keitaidensha]

I personally had quite the laugh from this,

and since noone else offered the quote, here is my due obligation:


"Also, dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature"





I mean, all of us have seen that movie... right?
shut the fuck up

you're out of your element

[Pierrot le Fou]

No, the whole thing is that Az doesn't understand where they're coming from, otherwise he would understand that the 'Ichiro' comment makes about zero sense to 99% of Japanese people, because they are not under the impression that Japanese people look the same.

There is a dichotomy in Japan -- inside and outside, foreign and Japanese, and to think that you can compare their treatment of outside foreigners to inside Japanese (as he's doing with Ichiro) is to believe that metaphors which apply to one, apply to the other. That's just silly. One group is very small (the Japanese) and the other is huge (foreign) and this is one of their ways of making that big group smaller, by comparing you to a smaller group which they can relate to as an 'in Japan' group.

It has nothing to do with race. It isn't malicious. It isn't some snipe at your character, or an attempt to take away your individuality. When confronted by something that we don't understand, we compare it to something we DO understand, because that gives us the ability to start to comprehend it on some level we aren't entirely in the dark about.

To compare that to American racism is just silly. Look again at my alien example. Realize that we're just as foreign as aliens from outer space to some of these people.

[h2orowe]

PLF, who I usually disagree with, is making an awesome point on this....
I think his way of explaining is the best so far.

And also, Bob isn't near as bad as what other people had to go through back in the days, which were what? Only like 50 years ago, which is still horrible.

I'm honestly having second thoughts on going to Japan after hearing about some of the treatment females go through in this country.....

[kitsunepixie]

About burakumin/eta: http://www.geocities.com/gaijindo4dan/

[Azrael]

No, the whole thing is that Az doesn't understand where they're coming from, otherwise he would understand that the 'Ichiro' comment makes about zero sense to 99% of Japanese people, because they are not under the impression that Japanese people look the same.
I do understand where they're coming from. And I know that Japanese people think they don't look the same, which is why the Ichiro comment hits so hard. I didn't randomly come up with it.

So they think all black people look the same. And no matter how you justify it with cultural ideas and history and what not, it's not a good thing. No, the country isn't going to flip on it's head and change overnight, and I'm not going to be any kind of revolutionary who starts it all. But if I can get one kid to knock off the Bobby stuff, that's enough. Like I said, you hear it five times a day, and it'll wear on your nerves.

I've put up with worse than "Bobby". How about having young Japanese turn up their MTV-approved hip-hop as they drive by me in the streets of Kyoto? How about having one of my students ask me, in all seriousness, how many crimes I've committed? How about having a grown woman ask me, in all seriousness, how many women I've raped? I'm not making this stuff up, and except for the rape one, it's happened more than once. This is all far worse than Bobby. But I just sigh and accept it because that's how it is here.

I don't know what it is about the Bobby comment that strikes a chord, it just does. The Ichiro Response works. I'd rather not have to use it, but that's just how it is here. And as I said before, I can't and don't use it on everybody...but the kids at my schools are learning something. That's enough for me.

[Pierrot le Fou]

And I get asked how many times I've been mugged, and how many guns I own, and whether I've ever shot someone. Your point?

You're further confusing the issue by stating that they actually think that you look like Bobby. They don't. They think you are closest to Bobby of the people that they know of within the Japanese world. And they use that as a jumping off point. It ain't them saying, "All black people look alike, so I'm going to call you Bobby, because I think all black people look like Bobby" so much as "I have never met a black man, let alone talked to one, but I know there's a black guy named Bobby on TV, so perhaps you're like him."

There is a HUGE difference with your Ichiro example because you know better. You're trying to insult them to prove a weak point that isn't even equivalent. If you think that using that Ichiro line has it all click into place for them, and suddenly makes them understand the folly of their ways, then you are giving yourself a whole boatload more credit than I think you deserve for saying an intentionally rude statement with full knowledge that it's rude, and expecting it to somehow rectify the fact that they've never met a black person but you.

You claim over and over that you understand where they're coming from, but you keep bringing it back to a perspective of how someone from San Francisco would view it. They aren't in the US. You're in a podunk town in the middle of nowhere essentially, and if you HONESTLY believe that in backwater Maine the situation would be better for a Japanese person, then I applaud you for heinous amounts of optimism.

The kids haven't been around non-Japanese people. They have never been friends with non-Japanese people. They find it odd being around non-Japanese people. And hey are not trying to insult you because you're not Japanese, they're just trying to understand you -- that's what people do. Kids do it in ways that adults tend to think is pretty damned rude, but that's what kids do, in countries around the world.

In the school I'm in right now, there are two Australian Blonde Haired Blue-Eyed brothers. When I come into the school, I get treated like just another teacher, because, well, the fact that I'm foreign isn't 'strange' to most of these kids who have gone to school with white folk and see them as just another part of Japan. They don't need to grasp for comparisons of me to people on TV, because there are people in their class who apply. I have another school with a half-Japanese/half-American kid and a Chinese girl. Same dilly. Same with the other school which had two kids from the US attend for a semester. Those kids just see me as another person. They find it hard to believe I am not Japanese, because their concept of Japan extends beyond just Japanese people.

Your kids are probably more isolated, being in the middle of nowhere. They have never had to deal with the conception that there is a non-Japanese who is in Japanese society that they have to interact with. So OF COURSE they're going to compare you to the one other black person who interacts within Japanese society -- Bobby.

It ain't about looking the same.

It ain't about trying to put you down.

It ain't about think you should bumble around like an idiot.

It's about trying to relate, understand, adapt, and deal with something that they have never been prepared for, or had reason to prepare themselves for in the past.

[Azrael]

Again, don't know why the Bobby comment hits a nerve, it just does. I can't even explain it to myself, so I have no hope of explaining it to others.

There's a lot about the situation actually I can't really explain. You'd have to spend time with me down here outside of Kyoto city and see it with your own eyes. Or even Kyoto city at the right time. I was in The Hub once with the ex, and as we were leaving some guys said something about me...and it infuriated her. I didn't catch what was said, and she refused to tell me. "I hate how ignorant this country is about black people!" she'd said. It used to bother her all the time, even just the comments she got once people found out she was dating a black guy. I've had Japanese friends turn to me after seeing or overhearing something and say "Are you okay? That really wasn't cool."

Again, I'm the last person who would try to make anything a racial issue. I hate dealing with racial issues, and avoid them or make fun of them. But there's one here, and there isn't some magical sequence of words I can type that can show you. You'd just have to believe me that I'm not being overly-sensitive or making things up. ...I wondered that about myself, but I've had people around me confirm some of the things that's happened.

I know most of these things are not malicious. They're simply born out of ignorance. There's a huge difference between something an American person might say, and a Japanese person. Where we disagree is that you think it's justified given the circumstances, and I don't. And since no one is going to change their mindsets about that kind of thing so easily, that's pretty much the end of the argument right there.

If anything, this thread has made me more apathetic to the Bobby thing, which is a good thing.

[Arkan]

Az you'll just have to become famous and make a name for yourself.

[Bissrok]

too bad you're not an asshole, or you could just exploit their stereotypes. bring in a clint eastwood movie and remind them that americans love killing people that piss them off. it wouldn't really improve anything culturally, but it'd probably scare a lot of the 12 year olds.

[koku]

You could just wander around NOT being the stereotype you hate to be judged by.

Best you can do, and take pride in setting a positive example.


I think I'm tired. I'd like to hear a Japanese person's opinion on some of the things PLF said.

[Roxie]

You could just wander around NOT being the stereotype you hate to be judged by.

Best you can do, and take pride in setting a positive example.


I think I'm tired. I'd like to hear a Japanese person's opinion on some of the things PLF said.
So you're saying it's Az's fault b/c he's walking around perpetuating a stereotype?

[charrick]

Az, I agree 100% with your response to their ignorance. It's brilliant. The only mistake you made was naming this thread "Should I be pissed off about this?" There's no question. You should have just named it "My response to Japanese racism" and made it an editorial.

[Decade]

Im not sure how this is going to be taken, but here's what comes to me off the top of my head.

As far as I've seen from these editorials you've posted, you've basically have talked about how Japan is radically different from the states, especially being a black man in Japan where they're pretty rare. You've made it a point numerous times that the Japanese don't see black people to often because they're practically nonexistant in Japan.

You've also mentioned that when your students see you, or first saw you, big dick came to mind and you had to build up your own sexual defenses. You basically were already experiencing this kind of shit from then and there. Keep in mind, I'm NOT saying any of this is ok, it's really not, but you basically have been going through "training" I'll say for this shit from the beginning.

You're a black guy in Japan. If ignorant Americans thought all black people and asian people looked the same, it's probably not gonna be any better in another country. Again, I'm not trying to justify what theyre doing is right (It's NOT), but you already know you can handle the shit the way you need to.

In otherwords, Ichiro's just another game of dodgedick, in some weird, twisted way.

Remember, it could be worse. You could be hearing the Japanese start yelling "DA-RKUNETSU!!" or "I'ma Riku Jamitsu, Bitch!"

[Pierrot le Fou]

Foreign = big dick. It's not like I, a white guy, got any less ribbing about that when I first got here. I just let it slide off, and they don't do it anymore. And that's what the goal is -- isn't it? To have them realize that behaviour is inappropriate?

My girlfriend wanted to 'vet' your girlfriend Az. She said that there are a lot of Japanese women who just go after black people because they're black, and she wanted to make sure that this wasn't a subset of the gaijin groupie situation.

The reason that it frustrates you so much, Az, is because you refuse to think like a Japanese person. And that's your prerogative, but it also weakens your understanding and makes you more edgy. It's like understanding why Japanese people defend crappy things about their country -- it doesn't mean they think those are GOOD things, just that declaring them crappy in the way us foreigners usually do is something that they can't support. It ain't the Japanese way.

As soon as I realized that, I've had good joint bitch-sessions about Japan with Japanese people. They agree, add more, and we have a great time. They listen, they see my perspective, and they understand. I work from WITHIN the system to change it, rather than trying to 'gaijin smash' my way through the barriers that are presented to me. Breaking down a wall doesn't change where it is, it just gives you some place to get through it. It'll be rebuilt, and no progress will be made.

If you get everyone to push the wall, then it will move, and you'll have more space. The wall will still exist, but everyone will have more room to wander. That's the benefit that comes from working within the system.

There are ways to address discrimination, and crappy things that happen, but getting irked about it and making comments that would affect someone who thinks like an American isn't it.

[Azrael]

...."Vet"?

Anyway, the ex-gf thing was just the first example that came to mind. I've had a lot of people, foreign and Japanese, be surprised and embarrassed/offended by something said in my presence.

And not every Bobby comment is made with the "here's someone who looks like someone we know on tv!" mentality. Quite a few of them are very disrespectful in nature. Yes, there is a difference, and it's easy to tell between the two.

[h2orowe]

If Bobby is a fighter, is he famous for a certain move?

Just pull that on someone.

"RAITU HOOKARU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Pierrot le Fou]

vet - tr. v
"To subject to thorough examination or evaluation."

I know that some people are going to be asses. But that's true in any country. And whether it's racist, being a general asshole, or any other form of assholery, doesn't really matter so much as the intent. That's the whole thing that I don't get Az -- I know you're smart enough to tell the difference between someone being a prick and being ignorant, you still seem to get pissed even when the person isn't being a prick about it.

I'm not suggesting you just ignore people being an asshole to you, but I don't think being an asshole back (with an intentionally hurtful statement like the 'Ichiro' one) helps you get any closer to your goal.

I deal with asshole kids every day too Az. I deal with kids who show no respect, and enjoy being intentionally delinquent/try to get a rise out of me. And on bad days they manage to see a flicker of annoyance in my eyes, but on good days they just fail all-out. I despise those kids, and I do have my fair share. I have also encountered the assholes out in public, in my local bar speaking shit about me right in front of my face when they know I can understand.

That bugs me, but lashing out, and being a pathetic little passive-aggressive snot back won't help my cause, and will only make me look worse in the eyes of everyone else around. I have gotten compliments on doing things 'the Japanese way' and just using overly polite language towards them, and not providing anything beyond what is asked of me. When the people leave, they say that it made them respect me more, because I was a better Japanese person than the pissant who was trying to get a rise out of me because I'm not.

And that is the way to get things done in this country. That's the way to be the bigger man, not let things get to you, and make small changes in the people around you. Getting irked, lashing out, giving speeches on respect or racism or discrimination won't solve it. And that sucks, but it's just true. You could make the most passionate Martin Luther King Jr.-esque speech that has ever been given in Japanese, and you would be greeted with deaf ears by the bigot sitting in front of you.

There is no sense in trying to change the mind of a bigot, because you will just get dragged down with them a lot of the time as they ignore what you say, and infuriate you more. You change the mind of the people around the bigot by being the bigger person and showing them how foolish bigots look in the company of somebody better.

There is a Hell of a lot of shit in Japan that I dislike and cannot tolerate. A whole boatload. And that's a pity. But a lot of the things that I didn't like 6 months ago I have come to terms with because I've accepted that a different culture IS a justification for behaviour I may not find acceptable. Ignorance IS justification in this country. And you know why? Because this country chooses to be ignorant.

We are not citizens Az, and it is not our job to change it to a liberal democracy with political correctness and litigation for all. That is the job of the Japanese citizens, if they want that, and we can either help to foster that attitude by setting a good example, or we can try to push our opinions on them, tell them that they're all racists, and end up being miserable with a lot of Japanese hating us because we called them bigots -- and ignorant ones at that.

You're letting this get to you, and you're probably starting to come to terms with the fact that this is not the US, honest to God, and that you won't be able to change it or the Japanese mindset. And while that may sound pessimistic and hopeless, as I've said, the second I came to realization and acceptance of that point, I have managed to change more minds, have better conversations, and have a more understanding attitude towards why people think the way they do.

There are some things in life we cannot change. So put your effort into those things you can. Accept those you can't. Or move back to the US -- I doubt anyone will compare you to Bob Sapp or Bobby there, and you would actually have a chance to eliminate discrimination against Asians if you focused you energy on it. Though something tells me you won't worry about it as much, or notice it as much when you aren't the target.

[悲しいパンダ]

Bob Sapp's time in the limelight did end. Unfortunately, instead of being the saving grace I'd hoped for, things got worse. Quick to take his place was another guy named Bobby. Bobby had already been on TV as part of another (really stupid) act involving foreigners, but he gained his independent fame much like Bob Sapp did - through the amateur fighting circuit. He became popular and started to make TV appearances. Despite being fluent in Japanese, he speaks in badly broken, almost gibberish Japanese (although you can make the point that his mistakes are intentional for effect) and in general acts like a bumbling idiot.

I've seen him on the tele once. You identified him very well. I totally didn't understand anything he was saying in Japanese. I seemed to be a bunch of gibberish and mumbling.


This shit doesn't fly in America, does it? If you were in a civilized area, and somebody spots an Asian girl, and regardless of what she looked like, they were like "Hey! Lucy Liu! Lucy Liu!" someone would call them out for being racist, right?

lol In America that person has to look a whole lot like a certain celebrity to be mistaking for one.


I have a response to it now. If anyone says to me "Oh, Bobby!" I greet them with "Oh, Ichiro!" no matter size, shape, or gender. It's a horrible thing to do, but this is what I've been forced into. Everytime I've used it, the reciever's countenance turned rather unpleaseant. Now maybe you understand how I feel. I used it on a boy today, and he stopped and said "I'm not Ichiro." "Well, I'm not Bobby." I told him. I think he got the message.

Its like they say, "Treat others the way you want to be treated." Sadly, this does not apply to everyone. Some people are very arrogant and no matter how nice you are to them they don't give you the same respect from them. I've seen and experienced this first hand.

EDIT:
I have a question for Az. When living in the states have you ever had people be racist towards you because your Black? You know the Black sterotypes the U.S. media likes to show. Can you say gangsta?

[koku]

So you're saying it's Az's fault b/c he's walking around perpetuating a stereotype?


lol no. Just a "focus on the good/what you CAN change" over the "piss away at all the negative stuff" advice.

It's good to know if you come to understand the Japanese mentality, it truly does work and make a difference in how you're recieved and how comfortable you can feel. I've heard that advice before but I assumed most people did it and I can't imagine how much of a difference it makes until I get to tet it out first hand.

Are foreigners really THAT rare? I guess posting here and seeing plenty of non japanese people in Japan, you get the impression that yes you guys are rare in Japan, but there are little groups of you. Given the audience for Az's material it's common, but I think it's giving me a false impression.

"most people have probably never seen a black person in [area]."

Hmmmm.....EVER? The more I post here, the more I translate statements like that to, "it's probably been 6 months since they saw one," or more rational (from my diverse perspective "Most people have probably only come in contact with 1-4 foreigners." Imagining something extremly different than what I'm used to, coupled with the fact we do see a small group of foreigners in Japan in these forums, it's hard to believe.

I guess also because I see so many people say, "Oh! I want to go try living in Japan," it gets even harder to imagine how scarce foreigners really are in Japan.

[more cheerios]

... Lashing out?

Early Childhood Educators suggest that if you infant, toddler or child will not stop biting, to bite them back (not necessarely taking a chunk out of their arm).

This is a suggested and respected method. What Az is doing is similar to that. He is not ripping the people apart with derogatory remarks, simply making a point. What you do not seem to understand, pierrot le fou, is that he is not going insane with rage, snapping and attacking them with insults. Unfortunately, Japan is not the most open-minded country and I think by now he understands this.

Nobody should have to deal with that, but unfortunately you both do, it seems. Whether you choose the passive-aggressive route and he does not, it does not make his path wrong. Nor does it make your path wrong. Your way of "handling things" may not nessecarely work for others. Sometimes you can't just sit back and let things breeze by, you have to say something. He's not making a country address, he's trying to get respect out of his students. That, my friend, is a perfectly viable response.

[raydude]

You may have heard this little prayer before:

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
The courage to change the things I can
And the wisdom to know the difference

I think there's a little phrase that needs to be entered for US people in a foreign country:

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
The courage to change the things I can
The intelligence to change it within the <foreign country's> perspective
And the wisdom to know the difference

I think this applies to any foreign country really. Japan is the focus here, since this is a website of a JET, but you could use the same prayer (or mindset if you will) in a Muslim country, another Asian country, African or South American country. Anywhere that is NOT the US and does NOT have a western background or ideology.

[Jess]

Your kids are probably more isolated, being in the middle of nowhere. They have never had to deal with the conception that there is a non-Japanese who is in Japanese society that they have to interact with. So OF COURSE they're going to compare you to the one other black person who interacts within Japanese society -- Bobby.

It ain't about looking the same.

It ain't about trying to put you down.

It ain't about think you should bumble around like an idiot.

It's about trying to relate, understand, adapt, and deal with something that they have never been prepared for, or had reason to prepare themselves for in the past.

I was in a podunk Japanese town, like Az is. In our town there was Timothy, the Belgian CIR, me, the ALT, and an American the town hired to teach the adult English community education classes. During a portion of my time there, the other American happened to be left handed. I am left handed. Timothy is also left handed. We had many people decide, on the evidence that ALL of the foreigners they've ever seen are left-handed, that most foreigners are left handed. I actually got smacked around by the baa-san teaching Japanese tea ceremony because when I copied her actions certain things, such as the exact motions for folding the silk napkin, I did mirror image to her; but that's a story for another day. :) The point of this is, I know where Az is coming from on this.

PLF keeps saying that you can't attach the same meaning to these Japanese people's total lack of understanding in how to deal with foreigners. I would agree to that PORTION of what he's saying. Your typical American, pulling a stunt similar to the "Bobby" stunt, is much more likely to be doing it to be rude, than to be doing it out of pure blinding ignorance. I think Az has made it perfectly clear that he understands and accepts this. BUT, this ignorance doesn't mean that he can't attempt to show these kids he interacts with on a daily basis what they are doing. They are objectifying him....black man = black man, not Bobby != Az.

We all run into these stupid stereotypes. "All white women are sluts". Usually, you shrug that shit off. I don't give a fuck what that random idiot on the street thinks. It's not worth my time to deal with it. But when kids he interacts with on a regular basis can't move from the "black man" mindset to the "Az" mindset, a rational discussion of their inability to see Az as a person, rather than an object in the "black man" category will not break through the student's mind block. The "Ichiro" comment breaks through the patina of culturally imposed dehumanization of gaijin, and hits at the emotional core. If delivered correctly (a snarl, and a refusal to continue the conversation would be counterproductive, but Az's stated attitude of continuing the conversation, and explaining the reason for his comment is what I consider helpful), Az's strategy has a good chance of helping a Japanese person see Az as a human being with feelings similar to his own.

Some may scoff and say "Japanese people see gaijin as people!". And most do. But some do not. I was going to save my bitching about the substitute teacher from hell for it's own thread, but it seems appropriate to tell here:

One of my teachers was away on maternity leave. We got a substitute English teacher to take her place for about nine months. I hated her, for multitudinous reasons. Among those many reasons was how obvious it was that I was not a person to her. One night, while biking home from the train station ("station", hah. It had three walls...), a car was behind me on one of the small back roads. I pulled over to the side, teeterin inches from the ditch, to allow the car to pass. It stopped, idling, behind me. Slightly creeped out, and deciding going home was NOT a good idea in case this was an out of town weirdo who, by some freak chance, didn't already know where I lived, I continued to ride until I came to a narrow alley the car couldn't follow me down. The car slowed, but eventually continued on...The next day, I found out it was the Teacher from Hell from a random comment she dropped...just following me. *shudder*

Later that year we had some festival on a Sunday. Everyone was required to show up, and we got the Monday off in return. The PTA gave a free bowl of udon (Sanuki udon...oh how I miss it) to each teacher. As the Teacher from Hell and I each got a bowl, the man handing them out looked me up and down and laughed, saying I would no doubt need two. Usually, I put up with the comments about my weight. I am fat, and was usually able to deal with the Japanese attitude about talking about weight. Today, for whatever reason, it really, really bothered me. I accepted the bowl of udon from him, stonefaced, and went back to the teacher's room, with the Teacher from Hell behind me. We sat down (we were both ninendan, and the foreigner is always next to the English teacher, so I was next to her), and the comment from the PTA guy suddenly overwhelmed me. I covered my face with my hands and just concentrated on not crying. After a minute or so I looked up. The Teacher from Hell was staring at me. She asked me what was wrong. So I explained that the PTA guy's comment really hurt my feelings, and I didn't like it. She stared at me for a good minute, motionless.

"What is it?" I asked, as she continued to stare.

"Well," she said slowly, "I just realized that you have feelings too, just like a person."

I'm sitting there, my jaw down on the ground, thinking "And this is a newsflash to you?!? WTF?!?". I'd been working with this woman for months! The scary thing is, she was studying for her lawyer's degree - she wanted to become a lawyer for gaijin in trouble in Japan. God help them. She won't.

Some Japanese are like this. You usually deal with it. You're not going to change everyone. BUT - he's these students' teacher. If he can help them understand what they're doing, and maybe consider things from this other point of view, I consider it useful and helpful, not rude. PLF says that because Az understands that the fundamental assumption of his "Ichiro Strategem" is that Japanese people are not individuals, he's being mean. I say that because Az understands this, and uses the strategy, and offers fuller explanations in an attempt to help the Japanese realize that their Bobby comments depersonalize Az, Az is being a good teacher, and doing his small part to foster cultural understanding, if not cultural change.

Edit: Muahahahahaaa! The forum tried to eat my post again (ate a good one of mine yesterday...) but I outsmarted it! I saved it in a text editor first!

[Trump]

Well, pierrot, your argumentcan actually be used to support both people. You say that Az has them all wrong, that these people call him Bobby as a way to relate to him. It takes him from that "foreign" group and brings him closer. But it really doesn't matter because he still doesn't like being called Bobby whether it is meant as a compliment or not! And the way Az responds can be interpretted both ways as well. Is it a compliment comparing them to a star? Or is it a derogatory rebuttal? Either way it has the desired effect. The people who are complimenting him with the Bobby remarks get the feeling "hey, I don't like being given a celebrities name, I bet he doesn't either" and the people who are just making a stereotypical joke probably interpret as a return joke. If he was using a name of a star that everyone hate it might be different.

So I don't think his response is as horrible as you make it out to be.

[raydude]

I accepted the bowl of udon from him, stonefaced, and went back to the teacher's room, with the Teacher from Hell behind me. We sat down (we were both ninendan, and the foreigner is always next to the English teacher, so I was next to her), and the comment from the PTA guy suddenly overwhelmed me. I covered my face with my hands and just concentrated on not crying. After a minute or so I looked up. The Teacher from Hell was staring at me. She asked me what was wrong. So I explained that the PTA guy's comment really hurt my feelings, and I didn't like it. She stared at me for a good minute, motionless.

"What is it?" I asked, as she continued to stare.

"Well," she said slowly, "I just realized that you have feelings too, just like a person."

I'm sitting there, my jaw down on the ground, thinking "And this is a newsflash to you?!? WTF?!?". I'd been working with this woman for months!

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but this very example shows how the teacher from hell was able to connect with you as a person because you acted very Japanese. You accepted the insult with a blank face rather than making a snappy comment back, you went back to sit down without complaining and you tried to hide the fact that you were trying not to cry. That entire sequence probably did more to open her eyes that you were an honest to god person than any diatribe or rant or "western method of retaliation" could have done.

[Jess]

That entire sequence probably did more to open her eyes that you were an honest to god person than any diatribe or rant or "western method of retaliation" could have done.

Oh, definitely. But that's not what Az is doing - when he gets called "Bobby", lecturing or losing his temper would have no effect on most people. They tune it out. "Oh, there he goes again..." Az's comment is another way of "showing", not "telling" a Japanese person what the issue is.

As far as the blank face thing...I dunno if that's necessarily Japanese...I got that from my dad. He was always big on the "don't be so emotional, what's wrong with you?" line. In my conservative Dutch family, emotion is weakness.

And once the Teacher from Hell understood I had emotions, she showed how truly horrible she was...I caught a cold the next day, Monday. Whenever I caught anything in Japan it laid me out like a steamroller had rolled over me. I called in sick on Tuesday (the poor teacher who took my call...I said my name in normal English, in katakana english...about 10 times, before he could figure out who I was. :) ).

On Tuesday afternoon and Wednesday, teachers and friends started visiting me, or calling me, acting very, very concerned. I was touched, but it was quite unusual. I was only about halfway recovered from my illness, but I decided to go in on Thursday to see what was up.

The Teacher from Hell had told everyone that I was not really sick. I was, instead, having an emotional breakdown, and needed psychiatric help. Her evidence for this was the fact that she saw me upset on Sunday. The town office informed me that since I was not sick, but suffering from psychological problems, I would not be paid for my two sick days. It took me a month to get that shit all straightened out. She is a Grade A+ Extra Large over the top absolute bitch.

[Pierrot le Fou]

You guys all assume that this "Ichiro" comment works. I'm sure it shuts them up, just like some snappy sarcasm will because they don't understand it. I have been asked "Can you use chopsticks?" and in the midst of using them responded with "No." which certainly shut the person in question up, but it sure as Hell didn't make them understand, it just made them confused as to why I would say I couldn't use them while using them if I really could.

Sarcasm doesn't translate, neither does the concept that all Japanese look the same to Az. The assumption is that he's turning it over on its head, that by calling them Ichiro, he is saying that all Japanese look the same, because they look at him and think all black people look the same. But I think that fundamental assumption for the 'Ichiro' comment to work depends on the assumption that they think all black people look the same -- which I sincerely doubt that 99.9% of them do.

They can tell the difference between Bobby and Bob Sapp, it's not like Bobby suddenly came on TV and they said, "Wow! Bob Sapp's Japanese got better! And he's lost weight!" It's not like they see Tuffy Rhodes doing a Hero interview after a baseball team and go, "Wow! Bob Sapp can do comedy, K1, AND baseball! Amazing! How does he get the time?"

Az is playing the victim, feeling that he is being victimized in a certain way, and responding as if he is. But the problem is that he doesn't understand the real root of the problem, and through it the potential ways to fix it. You can't find an appropriate response until you understand the reason.

As to 'more cheerios,' if the kid doesn't understand WHY they're being bitten, biting them back won't help. And if you give them a slap to the hand after they bite your ear, they're going to be confused. Furthermore, these aren't infants we're talking about -- they're young kids who need to understand what they're doing wrong in order to learn how not to do it.

[Intense]

Some things should be thought and not said and I beleive stating that "X looks like Y" is one of those. The reason this is, is because it takes away a person's identity. The person who makes the comparison just shows that they dont see the other person as an individual, instead just groups them with other likewise looking people. Cultural or not it doesnt matter, its just plain rude. It's like seeing someone who is overwieght who you don't know and calling them by some overweight celebrity's name. You just dont do that because its downright rude and ignorant. You can think it but you should never say it because it's obviously going to hurt the other person's feelings.
The only time I could ever see this as appropriate behaviour (in any culture) is if it's done as a compliment deliberatly, which doesn't seem to be the case here.

[Pierrot le Fou]

No no NO! ABSOLUTAMENTE NO!

Go back, read what's been said, and stop taking your attitude into this as if naturally everyone in the world must think like you. This isn't necessarily about appearance. It's not necessarily about trying to 'de-individualize' him. It could just as easily be a way to relate to him as an individual member of a group that is recognized as human in their world view.

People are sitting here and speaking from a non-Japanese world view as if it applies to the way the Japanese think. THE JAPANESE CONCEPTION OF APPEARANCE AND RACE IS NOT THE SAME AS THAT OF MULTI-CULTURAL COUNTRIES WITH LOTS OF INTER-RACIAL CONTACT!

[Artie]

What I get from this is that this is a special case here: ignorant (is this the right word?) children, from a deprived country when it comes to different races of people. What you feel is justified, hell, I'd probably be pissed too. I can see what PlP means though...

[hapamama]

Yes, it does happen in West Coast too. Before where the white was the majority, they would call us, Asians, Jackie Chan and stuff.

By the way... Lucy Liu is a very irky example for me. Because I have a friend named Lucy Liu... exactly the same spelling. And she doesn't feel bad or anything. More or less, she enjoys it.

Although I agree with Pierrot logically, I sympathize with Azreal....Because I've been down the same road. I was the only Chinese in the entire school, and people would say things like "Hey, I saw a Chinese man eating fires on TV last night. Can you eat fire?" Or a snake... or a dog.... or needles... etc. As a seven-year-old, it was not a good experience at all.


Oh god, I can so relate to this.

I grew up in small, somewhat conservative suburbs in Southern California (Glendora/Covina/San Dimas). My schools were something like 60% Caucasian, 30% Hispanic, 10% other.

There were a lot of white and Hispanic kids who thought it was hilarious to call my not-even-100%-Asian self derogative terms for Asians (99% of the time not even the correct one mind you) and say that my grandfather bombed Pearl Harbor (gee, that would have been hard to do from a farm just outside of Davis, or on a US Navy ship heading in the middle of the Pacific)..

Hey Az, I know it sucks great big donkey balls hearing it all the time, but continue using the "Ichiro" on the students, and just ignore the adults.

Cheryl

[CNagy]

I absolutely hate being called Bobby. Am I overreacting? I don't know. I've tried to understand a lot and be patient and open or whatever, but every time I hear "Ooh, Bobby chau?" it makes my hairs stand on end.
Regardless of the responses that have been tossed back and forth here, I doubt this will change. It's not a question of whether or not you should be pissed-- you will be pissed or you won't be pissed. How you deal with it is the most important factor.

I'm not Japanese (obviously,) I've never been to Japan. The only Japanese I've met have been naturalized citizens of the united states. So my opinion may hold little or no water.

There are those who will be rude. They exist everywhere, and their comments will be based on what they know. The ignorant are everywhere, as well, and their comments will be based on what they know. In a country as culturally isolated as Japan, it would seem that the two groups "know" the same things. You are a large, black man in Japan, and I'd assume this makes you the equivalent to a pink elephant, if you'll pardon the comparison.

The only things they know to expect are that which they have been exposed to. The problem is two-fold; you are dealing with stereotypes ("how many crimes have you committed?" "how many women have you raped?") and the fact that you are an anomaly where-ever you go. It sounds like you are dealing with the stereotypes well, which I personally would find the more difficult of the two issues to handle.

I assume it bothers you that you could spend so much time with these kids, and after you leave the biggest thing you'll be associated with is some celebrity fighter on the television. Part of why you are there is to "broaden cultural perceptions," right? How can you do that if you aren't considered your own person, if you are piggy-backed onto a figure that essentially plays a racial caricature?

How much do they know about you, Az? I spent 2 hours a day, 5 days a week, 30 weeks or so out of a year with some of my teachers in my middleschool years, and I can't tell you more than their last name and what they taught. So how much can your students relate to you?

The comments of the ignorant will be based on what they know. What they know is Bob Sapp and Bobby Ologun. They know a few other things, too, like the racial stereotypes you've encountered, but if they are trying to be friendly I doubt that they are going to bring those up (sure, a kid might ask you how many crimes you have committed, but if you responded with an affirmation that you have committed crime, he'd probably think it was cool. Kids will be kids.) So they are left with the one area of common ground that they can think of: black celebrities on Japanese television. The point is that I would think of this sort of thing as an icebreaker. If they really wanted to assault your character, they could just shun you or ask you a racial question that would likely be rude no matter what language, right?

Do you just want them to shut up, or do you want them to understand you? I don't think it is the first, and you have to realize that very few will ever understand you the way I think you want to be understood. Despite that, you are a racial representative, and what you do will be remembered-- even if it only manifests itself in the way that they treat the next black person they encounter.

Your "Ichiro" comment seems to be a double-edged sword, and neither edge looks particularly promising. On the one hand, they might just shut up from confusion. On the other hand, even if they do understand it, isn't your comment a rude enlightenment? It is rather blunt and direct, even if you are letting them connect the dots on their own, because you are forcing a confrontation. Is it worth it to open a few eyes to one thing, while possibly impressing upon many of them that foreigners are, in fact, rude?

I don't have an answer to give, really. And none of my observations are backed by anything more that what you have written, what I have read, and my own contemplations, so please take the above with a large grain of salt.

[Jon885]

This might've already been asked but what or who is Ichiro?

[Pierrot le Fou]

Ichiro Suzuki, Right Fielder for the Seattle Mariners (a US baseball team)

[raydude]

What I get from this is that this is a special case here: ignorant (is this the right word?) children, from a deprived country when it comes to different races of people. What you feel is justified, hell, I'd probably be pissed too. I can see what PlP means though...

No, this is not a special case. I'll explain why. Japan is not alone in the fact that its citizens don't think like those in the United States. Many countries OUTSIDE THE US in fact do NOT think like the United States.

Lets take a thought example. Pick a Muslim country, lets say Jordan. Now, there are some Bin Laden sympathizers in Jordan. How should we try to change their mindset and make them see that Bin Laden is crazy? I know, lets show them the Southpark Episode where Cartman takes on Bin Laden! For those of you who don't know, SouthPark is an animated cartoon which pokes fun at different aspects of society by greatly exagerrating real life events or people and using lots and lots of satire. So, maybe if we show this cartoon to the Bin Laden supporting Muslims they'll get it, laugh, and realize that Bin Laden is a freak! Just like we do in the US!

NEWS FLASH! Islam (the Muslim religion) does not do much self-depricating of its own religion. Its not like Catholicism (yes, I'm Catholic) where I can say "You know, sometimes God can be a real downer." And the Islamic zealots really really don't like being mocked. So, the cartoon might actually have the opposite effect - inciting hatred against the US because it is seen as defiling Islam. Hmmmm, I guess not everyone thinks like the US after all.

As I've said before, Japan is not alone in NOT THINKING LIKE THE US! Its relevant here because Az is there and this is his website. If we suddenly transplanted Az in rural CHINA and had him teach english there he would probably encounter the SAME DAMN THING! Possibly even worse because they don't have a Bobby to compare him to. They would probably make up a word that describes him, but which US citizens would interpret as being racist or demeaning.

[BluZytrix]

Indead, this is a very interesting topic. I do have a question or two. Az, have you ever asked the kids why they call you Bobby or Sapp? If so, what is their response? Limit that not only to the kids, but the other adults that have done this too. Also, since le Fou has pointed out the opinion that calling them Ichiro is not interpreted as you may think, have you talked to them after calling them Ichiro and asking them how they felt?

[Matadon]

No, this is not a special case. I'll explain why. Japan is not alone in the fact that its citizens don't think like those in the United States. Many countries OUTSIDE THE US in fact do NOT think like the United States.


This is true.

NEWS FLASH! Islam (the Muslim religion) does not do much self-depricating of its own religion.

This is not true, and depends heavily not only upon which sect of Islam an individual practices, as well as upon said individual's interpretation of Islam. I know many Muslims that are working hard to change the image of their religion, partially through education, but mostly through internal reform, and they are making, and have made, real progress. A lesson the Catholic Church would do well to heed; it took how long to pardon Galileo?

Its not like Catholicism (yes, I'm Catholic) where I can say "You know, sometimes God can be a real downer." And the Islamic zealots really really don't like being mocked.

Neither do Christian zealots; I have been physically assaulted for making a flippant comment about their god, which I consider, along with all other gods, to be fictional. Most people in most religious are sensible. Zealots are, by definition, batshit insane. The fact that a given zealot is Christian, Islamic, Atheistic, or just really likes Burger King is immaterial.

As I've said before, Japan is not alone in NOT THINKING LIKE THE US! Its relevant here because Az is there and this is his website. If we suddenly transplanted Az in rural CHINA and had him teach english there he would probably encounter the SAME DAMN THING! Possibly even worse because they don't have a Bobby to compare him to. They would probably make up a word that describes him, but which US citizens would interpret as being racist or demeaning.

This can be summarized in that people from different cultures think differently, and that people from any given culture will attempt to 'normalize' concepts from another culture through a variety of methods. In terms of people, especially in such a homogenous country as Japan, this is going to result in being compared to overarching stereotypes based on appearance, and is likely not intended as demeaning.

Hell, I got called JOHN TRAVOLTA when I was in Japan. I should be more insulted than Az.

[raydude]

Matadon,

Good points, all of them. Thank you for correcting me on Islam. I meant no offense by what I said out of ignorance. And I agree about the Catholic Church. It takes forever to move on some issues. Thank you also for restating my point more succintly.

[Frankey-eh]

I accepted the bowl of udon from him, stonefaced, and went back to the teacher's room, with the Teacher from Hell behind me. We sat down (we were both ninendan, and the foreigner is always next to the English teacher, so I was next to her), and the comment from the PTA guy suddenly overwhelmed me. I covered my face with my hands and just concentrated on not crying. After a minute or so I looked up. The Teacher from Hell was staring at me. She asked me what was wrong. So I explained that the PTA guy's comment really hurt my feelings, and I didn't like it. She stared at me for a good minute, motionless.

"What is it?" I asked, as she continued to stare.

"Well," she said slowly, "I just realized that you have feelings too, just like a person."

I'm sitting there, my jaw down on the ground, thinking "And this is a newsflash to you?!? WTF?!?". I'd been working with this woman for months!

Actually... that's not very surprising to me, because...

I admit, I used to be like that. When I first came to US from Japan, I used to be REALLY prejudice (sp?). Never before have I seen a black man. Back then, I've only met one white family before, and they worked at the same company as my dad. Meeting black people was a first for me... and I didn't understand exactly why, but I couldn't see them as people with emotions.

In elementary school, I was in ESL with two other blacks. I remember how much I hated going to ESL because I didn't want to associate myself with the black kids. And when they got picked on by other guys, I just turned a cold shoulder, or I'd laugh with everyone else. I just couldn't feel "sympathy" like I would if a Japanese person was being bullied.

...Why? Because I've never seen them before! Think about it. If an alien just walks into your school, what will you do? You'd scream, you'd run, you'd stay away, right? I mean, they might be dangerous. If a green guy moves into your neighborhood, you will you have the guts to say "Hey, welcome. Let's be friends! Do you want to come over for dinner?" I don't think so. I mean, sure, we've seen tons of aliens in movies...but in real life? That's just weird.

It's the same thing. We've heard about black people... seen them on TV...but never in real life. We didn't even have Bobby back then! It was just a black person on the outer shell... we had no idea what was inside. I was scared.

Was, that is. Yes, I'm more open-minded now. I believe I can respect them like I can respect Indians and Iranians and Koreans.

So Az:
I think, rather than complaining about it, you should feel thankful that Bobby IS there. Maybe in your area people are used to you, but the rest of the nation isn't that lucky. If Bobby goes on TV and acts with personality, it'll help the Japanese understand that other races are human too.

I've seen Bobby on TV. He's not that bad, really. Frankly, I was shocked they even made him a celeb... heh. Japan's finally maturing. If I knew him before coming to US, I wouldn't have feared the black as much. Because I'll be able to SEE that he talks and laughs and has stories that I can relate to.

Furthermore, I agree with Pierrot... Ichiro isn't helping them understand. If I was in the kid's shoe, I wouldn't have understood... in fact, if I think about it from the other position, I still don't understand. I would probably have called you Bobby as a compliment. Like "wow, you're a celebrity! you're on TV!" and then... you come back and tell me I'm a baseball player. If I idolized him, I would accept it as a compliment. If I hated baseball, I would think you're strange and I won't say anything any more.

[Invictus]

Well, it appears that we now have it from the horse's mouth, as it were...

[Azrael]

Bobby is by no means a compliment. It is not Japanese people trying to reach out and connect to me. When a bunch of Japanese kids spot me, call me Bobby and start laughing hysterically, without ever actually addressing me, this is not an attempt at international relations. Every country is different, but anyone can tell the difference between respect and ridicule. When my own students call me Bobby, when they know my real name, this is not respectful.

Yes, there are a great number of Japanese comedians who rise to popularity by making fun of themselves, or others. Yes, there are a lot of shows that involve ridicule and stupid behavior. The difference is, this isn't all of Japanese TV. There are still serious people and drama and smart comedy and whatever. When Japanese people look at black folks on TV, ALL THEY HAVE is two guys who got popular by making fools of themselves. Bobby's bumbling may be intentional, but it is still stupid behavior.

Whatever justification you give it, wrong is still wrong. What did I come here to do? Spout off a few English phrases a few hours a day and go home and play PS2 games? Why did Japan go through ALL the trouble of actually bringing foreigners here, and putting them in the trenches? Even paying for our plane tickets? For our perfect pronounciation? Hell, the textbook CD's have that covered.

I ignore the Bobby comment. Or I play along, maybe buck my eyes out and say something stupid in Japanese. Then I have done nothing except support the bullshit on TV, despite the fact that they've met a real live black person who isn't like the stereotype they assume him to be.

The whole country isn't going to change by my hand. It may never change. But if I don't try to at least show my kids something, then why did I come here? Why did Japan bring me here?

And give the kids more credit - they're not that dumb/clueless, they know what they're doing. Some of them will push buttons because they can, and it's fun. Someone asked earlier how about trying to ask them why they call me Bobby. ..I've already done that.

Me: Why did you do that? Why did you call me Bobby?
Kid: Cause you look like him.
Me: I don't think I do.
Kid: Yeah you do.
Me: But you know, there are many different types of people. Just because we share one trait, that doesn't mean we're similar.
Kid: ........
Me: You know my name right? I'd much rather be called my name. Getting called Bobby is not a good feeling.
Kid: ...Ok. Bye Bobby!

I've watched kids laugh while one of my teachers broke down and cried in front of the classroom. Laughed. They know better. And even if they didn't, if we continue to coddle them, they never will.

As I've said before, I don't like the Ichiro response, but it works. Even the ichinensei know at this point that I can read their name tags. I can call them by their actual name. "Why'd he call me Ichiro?" They wonder. "Why'd you call me Bobby?" "But, I don't look like Ichiro!" Every kid I have ever used it on has had that reaction. Sometimes, the only way to get through to kids is to put it in a language they understand. The only way to make them understand something is bad is to make them feel bad. How many of us did the right thing in school because we didn't want to get into trouble?

[Invictus]

Furthermore, I agree with Pierrot... Ichiro isn't helping them understand. If I was in the kid's shoe, I wouldn't have understood... in fact, if I think about it from the other position, I still don't understand. I would probably have called you Bobby as a compliment. Like "wow, you're a celebrity! you're on TV!" and then... you come back and tell me I'm a baseball player. If I idolized him, I would accept it as a compliment. If I hated baseball, I would think you're strange and I won't say anything any more.

QFT! In Mexico, when some people hear my name (which is as Mexican as Vicente Fox) and see that I'm a "gringo," they call me Robert Redford. This annoys me, because I don't like Robert Redford and don't look a whit like him. If they know it annoys me, they call me that exclusively. So on more than one occasion, when they said, "Que honda, Robert Redford?" the appropriate response seemed (like Az) to say, "Que honda, Antonio Aguilar?" (For the record, Aguilar is a famous Mexican singer and actor.)

Did this teach them not to call me Robert Redford just because I'm part gringo and my name is Roberto? Nope. Just confused the hell out of them. So I sat down and explained to them... whereupon they still didn't get it, earning me a few mutters of "gringo loco" behind my back. This is because they don't think they look like Antonio Aguilar, and more importantly don't associate him with iconic representation of Mexicans. As a matter of fact, they don't associate ANYONE with iconic representation of Mexicans, because amongst themselves they think (rightly) that each of them is unique.

It's the same with the "Ichiro" comment. It may shut them up, but that's all it'll do. Az, I think you're probably deluding yourself if you think they realize why calling you "Bobby" is a bad thing.

[Roxie]

I'm pretty sure Az actually talks to the kids to explain WHY he called them Ichiro.

And if they don't call him that again, then that's all you can hope for an "understanding".

[Pierrot le Fou]

Okay, I can explain to my 3rd graders why the sky is blue too, and they'll probably stop asking, but not because they actually understand about wavelengths of light and the like... They'll stop because they don't understand the explanation, and they know that there is one.

If he tells his kids why they shouldn't call him Bobby, they'll probably stop calling him it, but not because they actually understand about a character representing the perception of a race and how this is bad... They'll stop because they don't understand the explanation.

You're trying to bring up an issue you think is fundamentally simple because you grew up with it, and thinking about it. They are not prepared for it, like an elementary school kid being taught calculus. While the kids may know that something is wrong, they don't understand WHY it's wrong, just like they don't understand that there's 'little' infinity, and 'big' infinity.

Should you be pissed? No. Because being pissed won't solve or help the situation. Being irked that 8 year olds can't understand college-level math is just silly and useless. By the same merit, being upset that Japanese kids aren't as intelligent in racial relations and tolerance as an American adult is just silly.

Japan is changing -- rika said that him/herself. Slowly changing. Rather than getting irked at a bunch of teenagers, why don't you let it slide and work on teaching the current age-group you're with stuff that's appropriate to their age-group.

Want to teach a lesson on discrimination in Japan? Teach them about civil rights in the US (something they learn) and then show them signs of modern-day Japan forbidding entry to foreigners (there are plenty on http://www.debito.org). You can show them that Japan is discriminating against foreigners (sabetsu) just like the US did in the 1960's.

That they can relate to -- a steady progression of things they know with things they don't, showing what racism they know is, and how their own country is also racist.

Discussing with a kids how calling you Bobby is like calling them Ichiro will solve next to nothing.

[thatguy]

hmm.. I dunno. As far as my schools go, these kids are taught about that stuff extensively in their "human rights" lectures during home room. While Im sure a large portion of it focuses on Japan's own problems within its borders, I know they also discuss foreigners, and Japanese relations with them. Now, in the case of middle school students, I do expect them to be tolerant. This isn't 1850. They are exposed to all types of foreigners from Tv to music to news, whatever.Granted, this is a poor substitute for reality, but it should be sufficient enough to flip a switch in their brains that says, "Oh. There's more than one black person in the world, and he isn't named Bobby!" I think saying that because they arent constantly around other ethnicities, they cant develop a respect for them as other human beings is letting them off a bit easy. Of course they can be surprised or curious. But I'd expect them to at least treat the person as a human being, rather than just some kind of caricature. Respect and empathy for another person shouldnt need to be taught.

[raydude]

Respect and empathy for another person shouldnt need to be taught.

I would really love to believe that it were true. That respect and empathy for another person were basic human values. And maybe they are. Unfortunately the Holocaust, slavery (both in and outside the US, including sexual slavery), child labor practices and recruitment of children into rebel armed forces and numerous wars fought throughout history seem to point to forces greater than basic human values driving most of the populace on the planet.

[Frankey-eh]

Az...

I found this on a website aim towards Japanese, giving them tips on living in US. (http://101280.net/library/archives/2005/05/post_17.html#02)
From what I understand, this person lives in Bay Area...

○○さんに似ているねは、失礼？

これは、かなり微妙なケースなのですが、私達アジア人が、黒人のAさんに同じく黒人の（例えば俳優の）Bさ んに似ていますね、と言ったときに、これを不快に思う人もいるようです。　つまりこの場合、　アジア人と黒 人という人種の違いが根底にあるようです。　ただ、ずっとアジア人の中だけで暮らしてきた私達には、このへ んの感覚に気がつかないこともあるので、ちょっと注意が必要かもしれません。
相手への褒め言葉として、　似ているね～　と言ったつもりが、相手を不愉快にしてしまってはいけませんもの ね。

I think this fits your situation quite well.

Of course, I also understand what you're saying, that these kids may be doing it to be annoying. Maybe SOME people are calling you Bobby out of an attempt be annoying, and in that case, you're adding oil to the fire by your comeback.

But aside from these, there are others who are probably doing it because they don't understand... as supported by the paragraph above. For those people, you should give them your benefit of doubt.

[Pierrot le Fou]

They are extensively taught about the racism in OTHER countries. Not in Japan. Ever actually looked at their ethics lessons? They ain't about the treatment of foreigners in Japan in the present day.

[thatguy]

I cant speak for the entire country, but at my school the focus is on human rights within Japan. Obviously, yes I have been to these lessons. Plus the kis hang huge posters up of projects relating to the lesson.
Yes, slavery, the holocaust, etc. are things that have occurred throughout history. Just like the underground railroad and the many Germans who helped Jewish people hide or escape from the Nazi threat. But why do we consider these things wrong now? Did everyone just have an epiphany one day. "Oh shit, genocide is a bad idea!" Um, no. Most people know its worng to begin with, they just deny that fact to themselves I'd wager a good percentage of people felt that something they were doing wasnt right, or else, why'd things change?

[raydude]

Yes, slavery, the holocaust, etc. are things that have occurred throughout history. Just like the underground railroad and the many Germans who helped Jewish people hide or escape from the Nazi threat. But why do we consider these things wrong now? Did everyone just have an epiphany one day. "Oh shit, genocide is a bad idea!" Um, no. Most people know its worng to begin with, they just deny that fact to themselves I'd wager a good percentage of people felt that something they were doing wasnt right, or else, why'd things change?

Hmmm, I guess you're presenting the hypothesis that, left to their own nature people will change things themselves. I myself think that:

1. The Holocaust ended when Germany surrendered. Hence, external force changed internal wrong. Or are you arguing that sooner or later, in an alternate universe where Nazi Germany survived, that the Holocaust would be stopped from within by the German people?

2. Slavery ended (in the US) after the end of the Civil War. Remember too that slavery wasn't the issue at the start of the Civil War either. Lincoln added it during the Civil War as another cause for the Union. Slavery was abolished by the 13th amendment to the Consitution. I don't think anyone will be convinced that the South would have ended slavery on their own without these external forces.

Incidentally, speaking of slavery and racism - knowing something is wrong still doesn't let you off the hook unless you do something about it. Segregation is wrong and people in the South may have known it was wrong. But that doesn't excuse people from voting and enacting segregation laws. That requires two things: that a representative the people voted for propose a bill for segregation and that the majority of the people supported segregation so that it was voted into law.

In fact it again took external forces - people outside the region where the "wrong" things were happening - to enact change. Why would that be necessary if a good percentage of the people in the region knew it was wrong? It could have stopped at the voting ballot or the people could have shamed the representative into retracting the bill.

No, back then they knew what they were doing. Which leads me to believe that the majority of people DIDN'T think it was wrong.

[thatguy]

I still disagree in that, the change, regardless of source, happened. Why did some people stand up against these injustices anyway? No reason to, if it can be justified.Some people were obviously opposed. I doubt they were doing it because they just felt like debating something one day. It took the force from people who believed it was wrong. But why did THEY believe it to be wrong? And why is it looked back on as wrong now? Just because we're used to it and the winners make history? I think this theory is difficult to support, however, I'm not sure what your view is on it.
Also, it seems that you state that, change is needed from an external source? That would lead me to believe that there IS something we can do to change this situation then. So maybe Az's actions arent totally without merit. As you said, leaving well enough alone, doesnt seem to change anything.

[raydude]

This particular back and forth stems from your statement "Respect and empathy shouldn't need to be taught". I agree. In a perfect world it should be self explanatory. However this is an imperfect world. Respect and empathy don't come automatically to people. It has to be taught. I wish it were different, but here we are. That was my only point.

[koku]

I'd like to point out this comment.

Did this teach them not to call me Robert Redford just because I'm part gringo and my name is Roberto? Nope. Just confused the hell out of them. So I sat down and explained to them... whereupon they still didn't get it, earning me a few mutters of "gringo loco" behind my back. [b]This is because they don't think they look like Antonio Aguilar, and more importantly don't associate him with iconic representation of Mexicans. As a matter of fact, they don't associate ANYONE with iconic representation of Mexicans, because amongst themselves they think (rightly) that each of them is unique.[b]

Isn't that the problem here? For some reason, your comment doesn't make sense because it doesn't work both ways (why Japanese people are individuals but other races are not, I don't understand).

Have you tried wording your questions that way Az?

"Why is it ok to think of Japanese people as individuals but not black people?"

It's also possible they just plainly think you look similar. When you're foreign to a race, you don't see the difference early on. A lot of people say me and my brother look alike, but we look nothing alike to me and family who has seen us for years.

This can easily happen with races if you're not exposed to them. Going through life only seeing so few foriegners will do that to you.

If it's culturaly ok, I'd ask adults and find out.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I still disagree in that, the change, regardless of source, happened. Why did some people stand up against these injustices anyway? No reason to, if it can be justified.Some people were obviously opposed. I doubt they were doing it because they just felt like debating something one day. It took the force from people who believed it was wrong. But why did THEY believe it to be wrong? And why is it looked back on as wrong now? Just because we're used to it and the winners make history? I think this theory is difficult to support, however, I'm not sure what your view is on it.
Also, it seems that you state that, change is needed from an external source? That would lead me to believe that there IS something we can do to change this situation then. So maybe Az's actions arent totally without merit. As you said, leaving well enough alone, doesnt seem to change anything.
So you're saying that things will change on their own -- unless they don't -- in which case we're justified in rising up against our racist oppressors in Japan?

[thatguy]

I never said things would change on their own. I said they should nt need to change, with the belief already there. I realize this isnt a perfect world, but Im wondering how these things come to be thought of as wrong in the first place. Im saying THAT idea of labeling things right and wrong..obviously it comes from somewhere, its not really a random process. I said that raydudes post seemed to me to say that for there to be change, there has to be a catalyst from the outside. If this were the case, then hes making a point for trying to change Japans way of thinking, when most are just saying leave it be.

[koku]

The lesson behind Az's actions are worthy of mentioning. Me personally, I'd rather find a more calm method of response. Though it was provoked, I wouldn't want Japanese people to assume foreigners/black people lose their patience and temper easily and are quick to comebacks.

Obviously, you must first understand how the Japanese way of thinking is, and then try to explain it from that perspective, but I do think (and hope) that if you do explain it that way, that atleast some will understand. It's a given that punishment in the majority of situations can work more often, but the longterm impression you give off might not be a great result.

It's just like raising children. It's much easier to punish them when they're bad to keep them out of trouble, but the few parents that figure out how to motivate their kids and rarely punish them end up having the best relationships with their children, and their children end up being just (if not more) succesful than others.

[ejones28]

In elementary school, I was in ESL with two other blacks. I remember how much I hated going to ESL because I didn't want to associate myself with the black kids. And when they got picked on by other guys, I just turned a cold shoulder, or I'd laugh with everyone else. I just couldn't feel "sympathy" like I would if a Japanese person was being bullied.



You hated going to school, simply because black people existed at the same school? Sounds like a personal problem.


I believe I can respect them like I can respect Indians and Iranians and Koreans.


You believe you can respect them? You still don’t know? Why do you feel like you need to respect them? Some people are cool, Some people are assholes, your respect should come one person at a time.



So Az:
I think, rather than complaining about it, you should feel thankful that Bobby IS there. Maybe in your area people are used to you, but the rest of the nation isn't that lucky. If Bobby goes on TV and acts with personality, it'll help the Japanese understand that other races are human too.


I don’t think he should be ‘thankful’ for a character he views derogatorily. I have admittedly never seen Bobby, but he probably just reinforces what people want to believe. I doubt his act would help with cross-cultural understanding. Menstrual shows didn’t do black people a lot of good here in America. Stepin Fetchit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepin_Fetchit) really didn’t improve race relations.

[raydude]

You hated going to school, simply because black people existed at the same school? Sounds like a personal problem.

She hated going to ESL class because she didn't want to be associated with the 2 black kids in the class. I gather from this that she wouldn't have as big a problem if the black kids were not in any of her classes. Besides which, she was a kid coming from a country where 99.99% of her fellow kids were Japanese. Cut her some slack.


You believe you can respect them? You still don’t know? Why do you feel like you need to respect them? Some people are cool, Some people are assholes, your respect should come one person at a time.

Her english, judging from some of her wording , while quite good, is still probably not as good in conveying her actual thoughts and beliefs. Its hard when english is a second language (ESL) for people. I know because my mom is a first generation immigrant and she still says things that could be taken the wrong way. She doesn't mean them - its an artifact of having to communicate in a non-native tongue, even after 30+ years of living in the US.

[Roxie]

She hated going to ESL class because she didn't want to be associated with the 2 black kids in the class. I gather from this that she wouldn't have as big a problem if the black kids were not in any of her classes. Besides which, she was a kid coming from a country where 99.99% of her fellow kids were Japanese. Cut her some slack..
Yes, but isn't it odd she only had this problem with only the black kids?

[Chinpokomon]

Menstrual shows didn’t do black people a lot of good here in America.

*giggles* :p

[koku]

You guys are going to scare her away/intimidate her and then you'll find out nothing.

[raydude]

Yes, but isn't it odd she only had this problem with only the black kids?

You know, if we're going to pschoanalyze whether a kids behavior is racist or not we have to remember this:

1. She came from a different culture and country entirely, one that emphasized trying to fit in rather than stick out.

2. If you re-read her story again you'll note that OTHER KIDS made fun of the black kids. I interpret that to mean that the "OTHER KIDS" were kids born in the US. Which means there should be no excuse for them because they grew up with a US mindset - that includes seeing black people on TV.

If we're going to be pissed about some racist kids I suggest we focus on the ones that were US born and try to understand why even IN OUR OWN COUNTRY there are kids that still feel the need to pick on kids from other races.

[Jess]

If we're going to be pissed about some racist kids I suggest we focus on the ones that were US born and try to understand why even IN OUR OWN COUNTRY there are kids that still feel the need to pick on kids from other races.

Psychobabble. Understanding where the need to be racist comes from is pointless. The reasons are as many as the people who do it. Same for those who hate fat people. Or tall people. Or small people. Or Jewish people. Or Muslim people. Or Christian people. Or people with freckles. Or people who laugh funny.

What you need to do is change the culture so such behavior is no longer acceptable or condoned. This will not eliminate it. Nothing will. It will push it to the fringes of society - which is the best we can hope for. The only way to get rid of racism entirely is to eliminate race. Because people need something to feel superior to others about. Always have, always will.

I would not claim that America is completely racially neutral. But I would say that most Western society has made great strides in that direction. I personally am sick of people talking about racial stuff - one way or the other - because the closest we can come to the perfect racially equal society is to have a race blind society. We won't get there until the stupid little "Ethnicity" question on job applications is gone for good. The second they need to know your race is the second racial discrimination begins.

[Yoonafkenenen]

I'm sure tons of people have heard that there are greater genetic differences within racial groups than there are between them, but I'm saying it anyway. The fact that 'people need to feel better than other people' is true...to an extent. We can say 'many people', so we don't trip over semantics. All people aren't horrible arefaces, (FABLE!) so obviously they don't all need to be changed. I'd also like to think our culture already does not condone racism. This is not to say that the situation is as 'fringe' as it's going to get.

Many people in this thread arrived at the same conclusion; Racism exists because we still have conceptions about 'race'. Ouch, a vicious cycle! We are about as close to eliminating the concept of race as we are to eliminating the need for racism in the first place....so let's not get caught up over which is more feasable. If there's any one thing that should be eliminated, it's peoples' insecurity as a whole. When people have insecurities, they turn to putting others down...but it's not like we can go to an Insecuritist and get it removed, so we have to combat it with awareness.

Why don't we teleport to Ireland, eh? Even if people are the same race, they will find reasons to despise each other. I make no claims about knowing the entirety of the situation here, but it is a prime example of a place where people of the same 'race' still find reasons to hate one another. Religion. Whee!

This entire conversation stemmed from Az's experiences in Japan; a bubble. If people are pissed off about his response, why not turn yourself into a tall black guy and walk around Kyoto for a while? To everyone who is preaching that Az just doesn't understand....you couldn't hope to understand either. Sure, you might even be a gaijin IN japan, but you're not Az. Stop crying 'EMPATHY' if you can't exercise some yourself.

On a serious note, I think we should eliminate the elves. Those guys are bad news.

[eringi]

Being non-Japanese and living in Japan just means you have to learn to put up with shit. It's frank but it's true. I do feel bad for you about being called "Bob Sapp" and "Bobby" (even though I think Bobby is really cool... how he uses language to make jokes is really amusing, I think) but everyone gets something. Personally I got Avril Lavigne (how do you spell it?) and since I'm German I always got "Icchi riibii dicchii" and "BEER!!" whenever questioned about my nationality.

The worst for me, I guess, is being propositioned for sex at least three times a day. It got to the point where I didn't want to go places without my boyfriend, because guys will and do follow you (especially in the evening) and harass you with "エッチしたい！！！" (And no, it doesn't matter that I never wore revealing clothing, I'm white so automatically I must be easy.)

Then again... every country has this problems. I know Germany has it too, about other cultures.

But I know you love Japan and the Japanese people, and I know that it grates at you, especially if it happens. I don't know... just keep up your good work and know that there are a lot of people who are cheering for you. 頑張ってください★

[Roxie]

You know, if we're going to pschoanalyze whether a kids behavior is racist or not we have to remember this:

1. She came from a different culture and country entirely, one that emphasized trying to fit in rather than stick out.

2. If you re-read her story again you'll note that OTHER KIDS made fun of the black kids. I interpret that to mean that the "OTHER KIDS" were kids born in the US. Which means there should be no excuse for them because they grew up with a US mindset - that includes seeing black people on TV.

If we're going to be pissed about some racist kids I suggest we focus on the ones that were US born and try to understand why even IN OUR OWN COUNTRY there are kids that still feel the need to pick on kids from other races.
No, no, no.

If it were (as the poster's post I was responding to) all about "Besides which, she was a kid coming from a country where 99.99% of her fellow kids were Japanese." Then it would mean she would've treated everyone who didn't look Japanese the same way, but she didn't. Why not?

Now while I realize that this had a strong element of peer presure, I also think it's incrediably interesting.

My question doesn't have so much to do with her, as it does with worldwide, as well as home-side perceptions of Blacks and American black people.

[raydude]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]No, no, no.

If it were (as the poster's post I was responding to) all about "Besides which, she was a kid coming from a country where 99.99% of her fellow kids were Japanese." Then it would mean she would've treated everyone who didn't look Japanese the same way, but she didn't. Why not?


Because that would have meant isolating herself? Think about it. You've just come from a nearly homogeneous culture into an environment where the majority are causasian and the minority is 2 african americans. Who would you want to fit in with? Isolating yourself because no one is Japanese isn't exactly a rational choice for a child.

[Roxie]

Because that would have meant isolating herself? Think about it. You've just come from a nearly homogeneous culture into an environment where the majority are causasian and the minority is 2 african americans. Who would you want to fit in with? Isolating yourself because no one is Japanese isn't exactly a rational choice for a child.
Wait, didn't I just talk about peer pressure in that exact post?

I could've sworn I----OH I DID!!!

[Azrael]

This entire conversation stemmed from Az's experiences in Japan; a bubble. If people are pissed off about his response, why not turn yourself into a tall black guy and walk around Kyoto for a while? To everyone who is preaching that Az just doesn't understand....you couldn't hope to understand either. Sure, you might even be a gaijin IN japan, but you're not Az. Stop crying 'EMPATHY' if you can't exercise some yourself.
More people should read this.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Christ almighty Roxie. What are you ranting about?

Do you have ANY concept of what Japanese society is like? Do you have the faintest clue of what a homogenous culture does to your perception of the world? My girlfriend is an incredibly tolerant person who has been to half the world. Yet even she comes out with doozies now and again, like "white people all like cold weather." That's because small sample sizes produce fucked up results, and produce a lot of hypothesis.

I've met short black people, tall black people, thin black people, and thick black people. When I think of a black person, I think of the people I know who are black.

Japanese people haven't met a black person most likely, let alone many black people. When they think of black people, they have nothing to go on, so what do you think happens when there's a vaccuum with no information? They make shit up! That's why Bobby is a good thing, because at least there's a reference point on black people. Sure, people like Az don't like the image that Bobby projects on the black community, but do you really want the Japanese hypothesizing on their own? Honestly?

I've said it a trillion times so far, and I'll say it again. Regardless of Az's feelings, every single last Japanese person I've asked -- every single last one -- has said that they think Bobby is intelligent, fluent in Japanese, and funny. When I ask them if they think he's bumbling, stupid, or any other negative thing, they say "It's just an act." Now perhaps I have just magically hit a bad sample group, but something tells me that if this concept of Bobby (and therefore black people) were bumbling idiots, at least ONE person would have said that about Bobby.

But they didn't.

So how about we realize that racism in Japan is entirely different from racism in the US, and trying to use US standards of racism in Japan is a lost cause and will make you unecessarily bitter and spiteful of the world.

[koku]

More people should read this.


Only because it's a emotion pulling statement. Unless you can prove your situation is different than other gaijin or kokujin in Japan, I can't understand why the generic arguement of how this should be handled cannot be made.

I'm not saying it's not different, but until you can make out why being YOU sets your sitaution apart from others (particulary, makes it worse), why can't people disagree?

I have no idea what I'd do. As much as possible, I would try to understand the frame of mind the people that cause you to be put in these situations.

I would like to think I would rather just explain it to them, come off as passive, and tolerate hearing it again, than to get results at the cost of looking snappish.

Go grill some Japanese people on this. We're all just going to go back n forth over what's the right response for 10 more pages anyways.


EDIT to Pierro: That's pretty awesome that all the Japanese people you've spoken with think Bobby is those things. Not a bad stereotype eh ^^ Hehehe.

[Yoonafkenenen]

Only because it's a emotion pulling statement. Unless you can prove your situation is different than other gaijin or kokujin in Japan, I can't understand why the generic arguement of how this should be handled cannot be made.

Er...no, it's actually a pretty valid point. You proved it yourself with what you wrote. You CAN'T say what you'd do because you've never experienced it firsthand. As of right now, I could say "If I ever met a leper, I would sing him the 'leper jingle'." But if a leper waltzed up to me right now and said 'Lets go, spanky!' I'd have no clue what would happen.

Sure you have an IDEA...but Az already did that. If you've actually dealt with people who tease you, (much less children in a foreign country) you realize that this won't help. Sometimes the only thing you can do is make somebody feel bad, as this is the only way to garner the appropriate response.

Sure, you can TALK to adults. You can reason with people who are willing to hear your side, but you can't always use reason. Ever tried to explain to your dog why it should stop taking vicious dumps in the living room? Yeah...you'll get about three words in edgewise before it starts doing it again.

[koku]

Well, what about the others who have been to Japan? What about Pierro? Are their opinions invalid?

And comparing someone who hasn't meant many black people but speaks the langauge you do and is a human to a dog is.........



*shakes head* :P Good luck defending that my friend.

[Yoonafkenenen]

Lessee...I don't remember invalidating their opinions... I simply said that they won't have the same experience that Az has because they aren't him.

And I KNEW somebody would jump on that analogy! Well done for jumping to conclusions! *golf claps*

I'm giving an example of a form of communication. Stretching what I said to mean PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT ETHNICITIES = ANIMALS is a nice politician move. Read the words. I am giving an example of how REASON is not an effective approach in all situations, don't look for ad hominum where there ain't any.

[koku]

I understand what you meant. I'm just saying it's a bit far to expect that little of a Japanese person.

[Yoonafkenenen]

I'm not talking about Japanese people in particular. I'm talking about children. You can reason with adults, of course...if there are any adults who would call out 'Bobby' that are also equally eager to listen to Az share his feelings on the subject. I just mean children in general.

Sometimes it takes a time-out to make a kid feel bad when they don't understand your explanation. It'd be great if you could tell people "When you do such and such it makes me feel disrespected and upset." and they'd understand and stop. When someone is mercilessly teasing you to make you angry and you've already tried the aformentioned method, sometimes the only way to get them to stop is to let them know how it feels firsthand. I'm not making a judgement about how right Az's methods are, he knows it's a terrible thing to do from a cultural standpoint; but it gets the kids to stop...and maybe even understand how he feels a bit.

[Dana]

I sometimes forget that kids arent adults in their capacity to reason and to put themselves into others' shoes, I think thats why I often feel very uncomfortable around them (read: I dont really like children). Yoonafkenenen has the gist of it imho. Everyone's experience is different. Remember that quote:

"Be kind because everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."

[Hank]

Az has displayed an astounding amount of patience and tolerance in his dealings with the Japanese culture. He's more than entitled to express his frustration about this. I think his solution to the problem is brilliant and he's certainly not doing any harm to these kids by it.

I'm reading a lot of self righteous bullshit on this thread. Who here hasn't ever reached their limit? As for defending the Japanese position, ignorance is no defense. Sure, I can "understand" why they act the way they do, just like I can understand why the Klu Klux Klan acts the way they do. But, that sure as hell doesn't make it right.

[Invictus]

Sure, I can "understand" why they act the way they do, just like I can understand why the Klu Klux Klan acts the way they do. But, that sure as hell doesn't make it right.

Good point, but that doesn't in turn make it "right" to turn around and burn a cross on the Klansman's front lawn as revenge.

Nobody (I think) is saying that Az wasn't pushed to his limit or that, in an ideal world, the Japanese call every black man "Bobby." It's just that his solution doesn't do much to correct the underlying issue.

[Pierrot le Fou]

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. If the cultural mores of Japan do not sit well with Az or any other non-citizen resident of Japan, they can feel free to return to their country of origin. Right or wrong, if you went to Nazi Germany during WWII and expected them to accept you as a handicapped gay Jewish gypsy, you'd be strongly mistaken. Sure what they were doing was wrong from your perspective, but by assuming that your perspective will matter at all is silly to begin with.

Let's say I move to the country of Fakecountria, to get a job teaching English to the residents of this archipelago. I get there only to find that the word for 'hello' in their language sounds exactly like 'fuck!' Furthermore, their smile turns out to look like a grimace! So smiling and saying hello in their country is grimacing and screaming 'fuck' at you.

Do I have a right to be offended? After all, they're insulting me in my native language, and making rude aggressive faces at the same time! Ignorance is no excuse for their rudeness! Or is it?

Because of their culture, they are not being rude, insensitive, or ignorant. YOU'RE the one being rude, insensitive, and ignorant. YOU'RE the one who is complaining about their language and lack of sensitivity despite living in their country. And your ignorance of their customs is to somehow be tolerated?

This isn't some cut and dry issue where they are being rude within their cultural mores but just don't realize that they're being rude. This is an issue where they are well within the cultural guidelines set out, and those rules of behaviour conflict with Az's view of what proper behaviour is, so there's a problem. Az wants them to act more like he would like them to, and they don't see anything wrong with not adopting a non-Japanese system of race relations, being Japanese from Japan.

Is that REALLY so hard to understand...?

[Hank]

The kids "might" not understand that what they're doing is wrong, but the adults sure do. Granted, learning right from wrong is part of growing up. It's arguable whether these kids have reached that point yet. But I'm not naive enough to believe that some of the kids and most of the adults don't know that what they're doing is wrong and hurtful. They understand stereotypes. They're Japanese, they're not stupid.

The arguement that "if their society says it's ok, then it's ok" is a load of bullshit. You can justify anything that's "wrong" about Japan or any other country if you follow that principle. Furthermore, no person or country has to answer for anything they do as long as it's part of their culture.

[raydude]

The arguement that "if their society says it's ok, then it's ok" is a load of bullshit. You can justify anything that's "wrong" about Japan or any other country if you follow that principle. Furthermore, no person or country has to answer for anything they do as long as it's part of their culture.

Its attitudes like this that are the reason why a lot of people in many countries are scared of the US. For example, we used an argument just like this to invade Iraq. "Saddam is an evil dictator. The fact that your society says its ok is bullshit. We're going in there to take him out." One could use the same argument to invade Saudi Arabia, Iran, or any other arab country.

Note: I'm a US citizen. I assume most people are here too. You and I know that the likelihood of us invading another Arab country is very small, probably nil. Yet these are the kinds of ideas that other countries are hearing and saying "Waitaminute! What's to stop the US from using the 'that's bullshit' excuse to invade someone?" I mean seriously. You think we can just say "That's Bullshit" and wipe out hundreds of years of cultural influence?

I wish that were true. I wish I could go to Palestine and say "That's Bullshit" and instantly stop them from sending suicide bombers. I wish I could go to Israel and say "That's Bullshit" and get them to treat everyone as equals. I wish I could go to Nigeria and say "That's Bullshit" and stop ethnic genocide. It won't though. What will is looking at the root cause and change it. Saying that "they should know better" shows we don't know anything at all about them.

[Hank]

I'm not suggesting that we should invade Japan due of their lack of sensivity. That would be a bit overboard, don't you think?

I'm honestly sick of the "political correctness" that's invaded the U.S. so I wouldn't force the Japanese to start thinking any differently. At the same time, Az has a right and a responsibility to teach these kids how to relate to foreigners.

Seems like you guys are glossing over the situations where people are using the stereotype to intentionally insult. They know they're being mean and degrading. But I guess if their culture says that's ok, then we should just accept it. Except... if that were the case, then all Japanese would be doing it. So, some of them must realize that it's wrong.

[Jess]

Yet these are the kinds of ideas that other countries are hearing and saying "Waitaminute! What's to stop the US from using the 'that's bullshit' excuse to invade someone?"

You say this like it's a bad thing. :D

No, seriously, that's what "diplomacy" is. Getting other people to stop and say "Oh crap, if <this> goes too far, so and so will <do something bad>." Everyone except the absolutely insane (which is why North Korea is so scary, there's a nutjob (technical term) in charge there) knows that the United States has no interest in invading everyone we disagree with. Half the reason is we're so God blessed arrogant we can barely conceive of anyone that doesn't want to be just like us. But the quiet (or noisy) threat of invasion, trade sanctions, ostracism all are the sticks that are necessary for diplomacy to work.

Let's be honest. The United States is very arrogant, and inward looking. We can barely believe that there are other countries that matter out there. The only reason we ever invade a country is if we have very strong interests in something they are doing. In most cases, these interests are national security or trade. In a very few cases, these interests have actually been idealogical (prevent genocide, etc.), but responses to idealogical interests has always been weak, and support for them has always been soft. We don't give a shit what the rest of the world does...because they don't matter anyway. And you can't tell me that more than 20% of the country doesn't believe that.

American invasion was not the optimal solution for Iraq. Things would probably be better there if the Iraqis had gotten rid of Saddam on their own and created their own democratic government. BUT it was the optimal solution for the USA, and a pretty good solution for Iraq. *shrugs* Them's the breaks. We're the big kid on the block - we set the rules. Reality, not utopia. As the big kid on the block, I think we're doing all right. Not perfect, but...we could be a lot worse. I don't sweat it too much.

Look at the world. Look at history. Might doesn't make right...but might does decide what happens. Only when the mighty also care about doing right does right get done. We're imperfect beings in an imperfect world. All we can do is not give up the fight to improve things. I think America is one of the most successful experiments in the history of the world at making sure the mighty can't do too much wrong.

[Alina]

Meh I don't blame you for reaching the end of your tether with the ignorance. I can sort of understand where the ignorance comes from, I'm from Russia originally and it's a very homogenous country, so foreigners stand out and no one really understands them. On the other hand, I definitely understand your position as well. I've live in Canada for 8 years now, made a lot of American friends over the internet as well, and comments about Russia have gotten me to the point where I'm ready to snap at anything that even vaguely hints at a jokes about, say, Russia being a communist country. My husband (an American) actually got asked if he got me out of a bride catalogue.

Bottom line? Go ahead and use the "Ichiro" tactic if it gets the message across. I'm sure most of these incidents are out of ignorance, not desire to offend, but that doesn't mean they should be allowed to pass.

[raydude]

American invasion was not the optimal solution for Iraq. Things would probably be better there if the Iraqis had gotten rid of Saddam on their own and created their own democratic government. BUT it was the optimal solution for the USA, and a pretty good solution for Iraq. *shrugs* Them's the breaks. We're the big kid on the block - we set the rules. Reality, not utopia. As the big kid on the block, I think we're doing all right. Not perfect, but...we could be a lot worse. I don't sweat it too much.


Who's to say they would have created a democratic government even if they did overthrow Saddam on their own? You're assuming they would have created a democratic government because that's what we did in our past and it worked well for us. But if the middle east shows us anything its that they probably would have chosen a theocracy, a monarchy, or another despot would have risen to power.

Ultimately what are you saying here? Are you saying that the US policy of "democratize or die" should be continued? The Iraqis weren't stupid. They knew that choosing a system of government that was "other than democracy" would be frowned upon by the US and that the US government would have said "nope. wrong answer. choose again." Is that not a blatant example of refusing a peoples right to self-government? And you don't think that's wrong? Why do you think we started the American revolution if not for the right to govern ourselves?

Personally I do sweat it. This is not my idea of what my country should be doing. Saying we could be doing a lot worse is a cop out. We should be thinking about how we can do better.

And personally I like the old fashioned definition of diplomacy better: Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.

[Pierrot le Fou]

The kids "might" not understand that what they're doing is wrong, but the adults sure do. Granted, learning right from wrong is part of growing up. It's arguable whether these kids have reached that point yet. But I'm not naive enough to believe that some of the kids and most of the adults don't know that what they're doing is wrong and hurtful. They understand stereotypes. They're Japanese, they're not stupid.

The arguement that "if their society says it's ok, then it's ok" is a load of bullshit. You can justify anything that's "wrong" about Japan or any other country if you follow that principle. Furthermore, no person or country has to answer for anything they do as long as it's part of their culture.
raydude covered this mostly, but your post reeks of cultural superiority.

Let's go over some differences between Japanese cultural mores, and American cultural mores, so that you can get an idea of other things that Americans find 'wrong' but that the Japanese have no problem with.

A good portion of Japanese women do not consider their boyfriend fucking a prostitute to be cheating.

Now were a female friend of yours in the US to say, "Oh, I don't know, my boyfriend may be screwing whores behind my back, but it's no biggie" then a good portion of the American population would be saying how she has no respect for herself, how her boyfriend is an unworthy dog, how horrible prostitution is, blah blah blah. In Japan, that's just standard, and there's nothing wrong with it even though Americans think there is.

To suggest that the Japanese must be wrong or ignorant to have that belief is absolutely ridiculous. It is simply the product of different cultural values and beliefs. The only way that the opinion in question can be considered 'ignorant' is if you believe that your perspective is 100% right about everything, and that someone who doesn't adopt your concept of right and wrong on that issue is merely ignorant of the truth.

You refuse to consider that maybe, just possibly, that the Japanese have considered the concept of prostitution, and don't think it's a big deal (God forbid). Then it isn't ignorance, and it isn't wrong, it's just another way of looking at the same issue.

American culture (and western culture in general) has its strong points. But one of the weak points is the belief in 'our way' always being right. That's why those who are pro-choice on abortion call the pro-lifers 'anti-choice,' and the pro-lifers call the pro-choice folk 'anti-life.' The concept that someone is looking at the same issue and coming to a different conclusion evades a lot of people, but is the fundamental basis of cultural exchanges -- seeing how a different culture adapts to the same problems.

That doesn't mean I have to think it's right -- I despise the racism inherent in japan -- but I refuse to call it 'ignorant' as an absolute notion, when the only way it is 'ignorant' is through my subjective opinion coming from a different cultural background. Those who live inside Japan, and have for their life, aren't about to call the Japanese 'ignorant' about race in any negative way. They simply state, "Japan is an island country, so..." or somesuch most of the time.

On a side note, a poll of 36 elementary 3rd graders (8-9 year olds) revealed that they believe Bobby's Japanese is pretty average, that he is really strong, and that he's a nice guy/good person. Doesn't sound like a bad comparison to me. At all.

[Tripen]

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/Serrated/1129187404227.jpg

Is this, by any chance, related to what Az was talking about?

[Trump]

So you are saying that in Japanese culture, it is not considered rude to talk about someone behind their back, close enough for the person you are talking about to hear you, complete with giggling and snickering?

[Hank]

It sounds to me like that's what he's saying.

[Pierrot le Fou]

No, actually, that's not odd in the slightest, and happens a whole boatload both in companies and in schools. It is part of 'ijime' or bullying -- putting people in their place socially. Az, like me, is an outsider. The longer he acts like it, the more they'll do it. The second I gave in to the Japanese mindset, the more I was pulled into the 'in' groups some places, and I was involved in the 'ijime' in regards to other people.

Do I think this is a good way to do things? Nope. But I also realize that 'go ni, go shitagai' (when in rome, do as the romans) is going to get me a lot further than acting as if my way is best, when nobody around me agrees, and it will only serve to isolate me. Perhaps that makes me a 'bad person' in your eyes. It also means that I don't get as frustrated as Az anymore.

Take that as you will.

[Roxie]

So, Az should stop being a tall, black man? :confused:

[CNagy]

Yes, he should drink some Michael Jackson Juice.

[NERD]

Can't we just say 'ah, those crazy Japanese fuckers.....' and laugh about it?

[Mushu]

So, Az should stop being a tall, black man? :confused:
Now thats just dirty twisting of words.

[Ichisan]

Who's right, who's wrong, what's racist, is the racism meant maliciously, done from ignorance, done from xenophobic terror of non-human abominations...maybe we can skip past the debate.

Az isn't just a visiting alien, he's a teacher and has been for a long time now, so it just occurs to me that maybe the way to resolve this is the same way he resolved the dodgedick/kancho problem i.e. by fiat, by exerting authority. Az you finally established that kancho and dodgedick were not to be tolerated, so maybe you can do the same with the 'Bobby' thing. Don't play games, and don't teach them why, but let them know they are not to do it. I mean, you don't tell them why they're not allowed to smash up the school. Kids aren't entitled to demand the reasons.

Obviously there's more to it than just saying the words 'Don't call me that'. Authority is a subtle thing, some teachers have it and some don't, but you have to believe in it for it to work. So I don't know exactly what will work and maybe this is a useless post. If you can pull it off, you'll still get it from strangers but at least it won't be 5 times a day, and you can let the rest of Japan worry about itself.

You say the Ichiro strategy is working already and the kids get it. So if that's really true then I'd say keep going.

Anyway, with adults the Ichiro strategy sounds appropriate. Especially if there are still a lot of people who don't realize gaijin are people and have feelings. Reading about that made me feel pretty japanophobic, which is indicative considering it's just one incident and didn't even happen to me personally but for a while seemed to cancel out all the good encounters with Japanese people I've had.

[NERD]

I think as people who were gathered around to read on AZ's stories, be amused of them, at the same time connecting through his experience as a fish out of water in a totally different culture than he is accustomed to, we all owe him the right to let him do what he thinks is right. As long as it ensures another hilarious/touching editorial from him. He is a person of his own devices, and choose to do what he thinks is right.

Personally, I'm awaiting for the day AZ unleashes the Gaijin Smash and join the X-Men. There's not enough minorities in that team.

[koku]

There's a fine line of not stepping over your boundries and authorities when it comes to changing a culture, but some things are wrong on a universal basis -- or atleast not right.

I think Az has not only the right, but a human moral responsibility to atleast try to voice things 'wrong' from 'right.' Yes wrong and right between different cultures and viewpoints can become a big blur of grey, but some things can only make situations better. Trying to teach his students and others to be more racially sensative, to me, doesn't sound like something that should be shunned. There's a boundry between "minding your own cultural business" and "trying to help promote international 'good'."

I don't know how hopeless the situation is first hand, but if you can make a slight difference, I don't see why you shouldn't try.

[NekoChan]

Damn, even i dont have the attention spand to take all that. And i spend 1:30 miuntes in four classes everyday at school(i am a junior in highschool, 16 years old) I can stand teachers babbling on about a+b=c and random shit i wont ever use in real life but...that takes the cake. Maybe Az needs to bitch slap some kids? I would >.> However thats somewhat what my mother is afraid of,we're saving up to goto Kyoto since my mothers company gives her 6 free days at any Hyatt hotel anywhere we have to save for 3 plane tickets which get more costly every day( damn the US worker shortage) she thinks most japanese dont know english...so she read some of "The Az" and changed her mind...Lets hope she doesnt get called Martha Stewart shall we?

[Pierrot le Fou]

Perhaps I take too much for granted. Perhaps I figure that everyone realizes that Az's stories, while based on truth, tend to be a slight bit exaggerated to make them more interesting to read. We all do this to some extent, because most people don't have an interesting enough life to make a daily encyclopaedic diary interesting enough to keep anthropologists awake (and they read through some boring shit).

For instance, people are acting as if this kancho issue is actually some huge plague throughout Japanese schools. It isn't. Sure, there are kids who try to stick their fingers up your arse. Say 'no' and 99.8% of them will stop it. I got kancho'd for the first time in months yesterday, I simply said 'no' in English, and he didn't try it again. 'Dodgedick' is even rarer. I just say 'no' and they don't do it.

And I teach more students less of the time than Az. I teach younger kids too. I've never been kancho'd by a JHS student.

I've been here as long as Az has. We've been doing this job for the same amount of time. Our experiences have run in parallel tracks. You say I should respect him to find his own way to deal with this, yet he's asking for advice, and I would like to think that of the vast majority of posters on here, being a fellow teacher in Japan and actually knowing Az, I would be one of the more qualified people to talk about what he's going through.

The Japanese, in general, do not travel abroad. Generous estimates put passport holding at 25% of the population. A vast majority of those holding passports won't actually travel alone in any sense, preferring instead a tour group, or business trips, where they are constantly accompanied by a Japanese-speaking translator/guide.

Without the experience of going abroad, let alone abroad beyond Asia, most Japanese people have never been anywhere that has been a majority non-Japanese -- let alone a majority non-Asian. Most Japanese have never had 'race relation' issues, because there really is no 'race' issue at all. It's a cultural issue. You're Japanese or you're not.

If you truly think that this is like the US, where discrimination is based on skin-colour, then you're absolutely batty. The primary form of discrimination is against foreigners, period, regardless of whether you're yellow, red, purple, orange, or green. And that's what's irking me about this thread -- so many people are taking this American view from which racism (obviously by definition) stems from race as a concept of colour.

Did you know there isn't even a word for racism in Japanese?

There's 差別【さべつ】 which is discrimination (literally 'separating differences'), but there is absolutely no word in Japanese for racism save a katakana version of the English. There is the concept of 'inside' and 'outside,' and non-Japanese have a damned hard time getting on that 'inside' group because they aren't Japanese. It doesn't have to do with race, it has to do with being fundamentally different by not being Japanese.

It's a cultural concept of 日本人論【にほんじんろん】 (theories of Japanese cultural or racial specificity) which has to do with believing that the Japanese are privy to special traits that no other culture has. Yes, that does constitute racism in the English sense, save for the fact that unlike the US concept of racism towards a specific race, this is racism against all who aren't a part of the race in question. Like white supremacists, I suppose, only without malice or direction -- just disdain.

So for people to continually suggest that the Japanese are being 'racist' you are thinking outside of the bounds of what the Japanese language can even express. 'Racism' is a word used in social studies when discussing the American Civil Rights movement -- not modern Japan. Suggesting otherwise is to ignore that the philisophical concepts that can be discussed -- even ethical ones -- are limited by the language that is available to have that discussion.

If the Japanese have no word for racism in the way you folks are discussing, to state that they understand the concept is being ignorant.

Prior to a numerical counting system, it's very difficult to explain the concept of 'seven' because the average person has never thought about 'seven' as a concept distinct or impressive enough to merit a special word for it. Without a word for 'racism' the concept of racial discrimination in the sense you're referring to is going to be hard to describe. If you use the katakana word for racism to explain Japanese behaviour, you'll likely get a blank stare because they were only taught that word in regards to behaviour in OTHER countries, and have never been shown how to use the same lens to view their own.

You act as if racial tolerance, views of racial equality, and all this other relatively recent Western thinking on this matter is common sense. It isn't common sense. We only realized that 'separate but equal' was anything but equal in the past 50 years, and you're calling it common sense? Just because you know it, you had it discussed in schools, and you grew up with that ingrained in the fabric of your society does not make it common sense.

Algebra is common sense to us, but try explaining it to a caveman who doesn't even understand numbers beyond 'one, two, three, a lot.'

Education is such a formative experience. We learn to think, various ways to think, various subjects to think about, and we develop the language skills to create thoughts that we aren't taught in areas that our language covers. And English is a pretty good language as far as vocabulary goes, because it takes so many words from other languages and can adapt them so easily to regular use in English. When we're talking about other cultures, education systems, and languages, things that are common sense to you do not necessarily translate to common in the slightest.

Like this problem that Az is having.

It doesn't have to do with him being black. It doesn't have to do with them thinking all black people look the same. It has to do with him being non-Japanese. It has to do with him being separate. It has to do with 差別 (sabetsu, discrimination, separating the differences). It has to do with relating him to something known to eliminate that 差 (sa, difference) so that he is no longer 別 (betsu, separate). It has to do with him doing as the Romans do. It has to do with him accepting that he is different and that the Japanese see no problem with pointing out that he is different.

It has to do with education, with different ways of viewing the world. It has to do with linguistic limitations and how the language is used. It has to do with past experience on both sides. It has to do with an expectation of tolerance which is a no-brainer where Az came from, but isn't here. It has to do with unfamiliarity, living abroad, and a whole bunch of other issues.

The fundamental point is this: Az is not Japanese.

Neither am I, and so we both get shit for it in various forms, and various ways. This is one of the ways that he gets it. I get called 'Williams' (an Australian pitcher for the Hanshin Tigers) by High School students while waiting for the train. I get compared to Kotooshu (a sumo wrestler from Bulgaria) because we look alike. I get assumptions that as a honky I can't use chopsticks, and that I don't like octopus. I get assumptions that I want to be called by my first name.

And you know what? I let most of it slide. Because distancing myself, or trying to explain how I'm MORE different by going into a discussion of why I'm different, or how I want to be treated which is different from the Japanese, will only make it harder to explain where I'm coming from, or what I really do believe. Because saying, "I've been eating with chopsticks since I was a kid. We do have them in the US you know" is far less effective than saying, "No, I'm still not good, I have trouble taking Udon or Tofu out of a nabe" when having my chopstick use complimented. You know why? Because the former distances me further from what they think I am, or what they want to believe. The latter shows them that not only did they have me entirely wrong, but that I do something similar to them (as most people have trouble yoinking noodles or tofu out of a nabe).

The former is confrontational. The latter is friendly. And you collect more bees with honey than vinegar or somesuch.

Differences are really not as prevalent in Japan as the US. And when people see a difference, believe it or not, they want to learn about it. The way they ask is fucked up, and the way they phrase what should be questions as factual statements is frustrating -- but it doesn't change the fact that they are still relating to you as a non-Japanese and are curious. The quicker you come out with bile and scare them away or make them defensive, the quicker their mind will shut-off.

The more I have tried to show a Japanese person how wrong their way of thinking is in regard to me, the more problems I've had in making any change in them. The people who change the most are the ones who's bullshit questions I respond to in a Japanese way.

And that's why Az getting pissed off won't help. It's not because their behaviour is good, it's because responding in kind will only serve to further the 差別 (sabetsu) by emphasizing the 差 (sa). It's because taking the American approach to this one won't help relate to the Japanese view of the world and how it works. It's because Americans, despite being ignorant about so much, are some pretty damned educated people in many social areas. It's because these kids are trying to relate to him through another character who's different on the TV, and he's trying to distance himself even further from anything they can relate to.

It's like the boy who cried wolf... If you lose the trust of the people who you want to listen when you talk, then they're not going to listen when you need their help most.

[Frankey-eh]

Perhaps I take too much for granted. Perhaps I figure that everyone realizes that Az's stories, while based on truth, tend to be a slight bit exaggerated to make them more interesting to read. We all do this to some extent, because most people don't have an interesting enough life to make a daily encyclopaedic diary interesting enough to keep anthropologists awake (and they read through some boring shit).

For instance, people are acting as if this kancho issue is actually some huge plague throughout Japanese schools. It isn't. Sure, there are kids who try to stick their fingers up your arse. Say 'no' and 99.8% of them will stop it. I got kancho'd for the first time in months yesterday, I simply said 'no' in English, and he didn't try it again. 'Dodgedick' is even rarer. I just say 'no' and they don't do it.

And I teach more students less of the time than Az. I teach younger kids too. I've never been kancho'd by a JHS student.

I've been here as long as Az has. We've been doing this job for the same amount of time. Our experiences have run in parallel tracks. You say I should respect him to find his own way to deal with this, yet he's asking for advice, and I would like to think that of the vast majority of posters on here, being a fellow teacher in Japan and actually knowing Az, I would be one of the more qualified people to talk about what he's going through.

The Japanese, in general, do not travel abroad. Generous estimates put passport holding at 25% of the population. A vast majority of those holding passports won't actually travel alone in any sense, preferring instead a tour group, or business trips, where they are constantly accompanied by a Japanese-speaking translator/guide.

Without the experience of going abroad, let alone abroad beyond Asia, most Japanese people have never been anywhere that has been a majority non-Japanese -- let alone a majority non-Asian. Most Japanese have never had 'race relation' issues, because there really is no 'race' issue at all. It's a cultural issue. You're Japanese or you're not.

If you truly think that this is like the US, where discrimination is based on skin-colour, then you're absolutely batty. The primary form of discrimination is against foreigners, period, regardless of whether you're yellow, red, purple, orange, or green. And that's what's irking me about this thread -- so many people are taking this American view from which racism (obviously by definition) stems from race as a concept of colour.

Did you know there isn't even a word for racism in Japanese?

There's 差別【さべつ】 which is discrimination (literally 'separating differences'), but there is absolutely no word in Japanese for racism save a katakana version of the English. There is the concept of 'inside' and 'outside,' and non-Japanese have a damned hard time getting on that 'inside' group because they aren't Japanese. It doesn't have to do with race, it has to do with being fundamentally different by not being Japanese.

It's a cultural concept of 日本人論【にほんじんろん】 (theories of Japanese cultural or racial specificity) which has to do with believing that the Japanese are privy to special traits that no other culture has. Yes, that does constitute racism in the English sense, save for the fact that unlike the US concept of racism towards a specific race, this is racism against all who aren't a part of the race in question. Like white supremacists, I suppose, only without malice or direction -- just disdain.

So for people to continually suggest that the Japanese are being 'racist' you are thinking outside of the bounds of what the Japanese language can even express. 'Racism' is a word used in social studies when discussing the American Civil Rights movement -- not modern Japan. Suggesting otherwise is to ignore that the philisophical concepts that can be discussed -- even ethical ones -- are limited by the language that is available to have that discussion.

If the Japanese have no word for racism in the way you folks are discussing, to state that they understand the concept is being ignorant.

Prior to a numerical counting system, it's very difficult to explain the concept of 'seven' because the average person has never thought about 'seven' as a concept distinct or impressive enough to merit a special word for it. Without a word for 'racism' the concept of racial discrimination in the sense you're referring to is going to be hard to describe. If you use the katakana word for racism to explain Japanese behaviour, you'll likely get a blank stare because they were only taught that word in regards to behaviour in OTHER countries, and have never been shown how to use the same lens to view their own.

You act as if racial tolerance, views of racial equality, and all this other relatively recent Western thinking on this matter is common sense. It isn't common sense. We only realized that 'separate but equal' was anything but equal in the past 50 years, and you're calling it common sense? Just because you know it, you had it discussed in schools, and you grew up with that ingrained in the fabric of your society does not make it common sense.

Algebra is common sense to us, but try explaining it to a caveman who doesn't even understand numbers beyond 'one, two, three, a lot.'

Education is such a formative experience. We learn to think, various ways to think, various subjects to think about, and we develop the language skills to create thoughts that we aren't taught in areas that our language covers. And English is a pretty good language as far as vocabulary goes, because it takes so many words from other languages and can adapt them so easily to regular use in English. When we're talking about other cultures, education systems, and languages, things that are common sense to you do not necessarily translate to common in the slightest.

Like this problem that Az is having.

It doesn't have to do with him being black. It doesn't have to do with them thinking all black people look the same. It has to do with him being non-Japanese. It has to do with him being separate. It has to do with 差別 (sabetsu, discrimination, separating the differences). It has to do with relating him to something known to eliminate that 差 (sa, difference) so that he is no longer 別 (betsu, separate). It has to do with him doing as the Romans do. It has to do with him accepting that he is different and that the Japanese see no problem with pointing out that he is different.

It has to do with education, with different ways of viewing the world. It has to do with linguistic limitations and how the language is used. It has to do with past experience on both sides. It has to do with an expectation of tolerance which is a no-brainer where Az came from, but isn't here. It has to do with unfamiliarity, living abroad, and a whole bunch of other issues.

The fundamental point is this: Az is not Japanese.

Neither am I, and so we both get shit for it in various forms, and various ways. This is one of the ways that he gets it. I get called 'Williams' (an Australian pitcher for the Hanshin Tigers) by High School students while waiting for the train. I get compared to Kotooshu (a sumo wrestler from Bulgaria) because we look alike. I get assumptions that as a honky I can't use chopsticks, and that I don't like octopus. I get assumptions that I want to be called by my first name.

And you know what? I let most of it slide. Because distancing myself, or trying to explain how I'm MORE different by going into a discussion of why I'm different, or how I want to be treated which is different from the Japanese, will only make it harder to explain where I'm coming from, or what I really do believe. Because saying, "I've been eating with chopsticks since I was a kid. We do have them in the US you know" is far less effective than saying, "No, I'm still not good, I have trouble taking Udon or Tofu out of a nabe" when having my chopstick use complimented. You know why? Because the former distances me further from what they think I am, or what they want to believe. The latter shows them that not only did they have me entirely wrong, but that I do something similar to them (as most people have trouble yoinking noodles or tofu out of a nabe).

The former is confrontational. The latter is friendly. And you collect more bees with honey than vinegar or somesuch.

Differences are really not as prevalent in Japan as the US. And when people see a difference, believe it or not, they want to learn about it. The way they ask is fucked up, and the way they phrase what should be questions as factual statements is frustrating -- but it doesn't change the fact that they are still relating to you as a non-Japanese and are curious. The quicker you come out with bile and scare them away or make them defensive, the quicker their mind will shut-off.

The more I have tried to show a Japanese person how wrong their way of thinking is in regard to me, the more problems I've had in making any change in them. The people who change the most are the ones who's bullshit questions I respond to in a Japanese way.

And that's why Az getting pissed off won't help. It's not because their behaviour is good, it's because responding in kind will only serve to further the 差別 (sabetsu) by emphasizing the 差 (sa). It's because taking the American approach to this one won't help relate to the Japanese view of the world and how it works. It's because Americans, despite being ignorant about so much, are some pretty damned educated people in many social areas. It's because these kids are trying to relate to him through another character who's different on the TV, and he's trying to distance himself even further from anything they can relate to.

It's like the boy who cried wolf... If you lose the trust of the people who you want to listen when you talk, then they're not going to listen when you need their help most.

お見事！This should be another editorial... it's SO true. And explained SO well...

[alansmithee]

I've watched this thread with interest, because I am black and was thinking about applying for JET next year after I graduate. I've seen many points on both sides, and I think that pierrot le fou made a lot of great points with his last post. But despite his saying that race isn't how most Japanese relate to people, and problems are more on a Japanese/non-Japanese basis, there was someone earlier in the thread who said she was from Japan, and when she first came into contact with black people didn't see them as having feelings or being human. Obviously race was playing a big role there. This was not said about non-Japanese people in general, but specifically blacks. This is why I cannot buy the fact that Japanese aren't reacting to skin color, but foreigness. It really troubles me that blacks are apparently so rare in Japan that they aren't even thought of as human by many people, and makes me seriously consider whether I will apply to JET.

[Frankey-eh]

I've watched this thread with interest, because I am black and was thinking about applying for JET next year after I graduate. I've seen many points on both sides, and I think that pierrot le fou made a lot of great points with his last post. But despite his saying that race isn't how most Japanese relate to people, and problems are more on a Japanese/non-Japanese basis, there was someone earlier in the thread who said she was from Japan, and when she first came into contact with black people didn't see them as having feelings or being human. Obviously race was playing a big role there. This was not said about non-Japanese people in general, but specifically blacks. This is why I cannot buy the fact that Japanese aren't reacting to skin color, but foreigness. It really troubles me that blacks are apparently so rare in Japan that they aren't even thought of as human by many people, and makes me seriously consider whether I will apply to JET.

Oh? I believe that was me...
And trust me, after having Pierrot explain to me in logic what I could only explain through examples.. it IS an issue of being in/out-group. I didn't see blacks as... human, yes, but aside from that black kid, I also remember joining others and teasing a white kid. Basically, I was still living in my in-group/out-group idea, thinking I HAVE to side with the majority aka in-group, or otherwise I'll be in the minority aka out-group. That was my biggest fear, probably.

haha I bet you guys are reading this, and thinking "that girl gets worse everytime..." I know that's what *I* am thinking right now of myself... It's really been a long journey... I think what helped me recognize my mistakes is moving back to becoming a majority. Before, I was in the minority and I tried hard to deny it and be part of the majority, which actually did not exist. Now, I'm back in the majority again and I've learned that there really was no "groups" to start with, and that's why I feel more comfortable accepting my past actions.

[koku]

No rika you're ok :) I'm sure a good ammount of us can at the very least, give you the benefit of the doubt and assume a cultural and homogenous environment like Japan can do many things to how a person thinks when it comes to race.

In fact, I respect you more that you came out and shared information that we can't normaly find or hear despite how it made you look.

[sbay408]

I totally agree with you, you shouldn't have to take that crap from them. When I went to Japan, people found out that I was of Chinese descent, so they kept calling me "Jackie Chan! Jackie!" That kind of stuff pisses me off. Japanese people can dish it out but can't take it.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Does anyone bother to read my posts?

Every page it seems like there are 3 random comments saying, "Yeah! You stick it to those racist bastards!"

rika, you're only bad if you don't learn from your experiences. Nobody is born perfect, and everyone makes mistakes. It's the merits of learning from the ones you make, and fixing them, that makes you a good person -- not never having made the mistakes in the first place.

[koku]

Does anyone bother to read my posts?

Every page it seems like there are 3 random comments saying, "Yeah! You stick it to those racist bastards!"




Didn't I kind of agree with you or atleast see/understand what you were trying to get across?

[CNagy]

It's the merits of learning from the ones you make, and fixing them, that makes you a good person -- not never having made the mistakes in the first place.

I am reminded of a passage from Hagakure.

At the time when there was a council concerning the promotion of a certain man, the council members were at the point of deciding that promotion was useless because of the fact that the man had previously been involved in a drunken brawl. But someone said, "If we were to cast aside every man who had made a mistake once, useful men could probably not be come by. A man who makes a mistake once will be considerably more prudent and useful because of his repentance. I feet that he should be promoted.''
Someone else then asked, "Will you guarantee him?" The man replied, "Of course I will."
The others asked, "By what will you guarantee him?"
And he replied, "I can guarentee him by the fact that he is a man who has erred once. A man who bas never once erred is dangerous." This said, the man was promoted.

Back on topic, I can't see how this is a race issue when it sounds more like a Japanese issue. It's not restricted to blacks, as several white people have experienced the same thing, and just a couple of posts ago a chinese guy attested to having the same experience.

To me it sounds like, although Az is black and there are a few stereotypes that come with it thanks to MTV and whatnot, it is more about Az not being Japanese more than being whatever he happens to be. Whether he should or shouldn't be pissed off is immaterial; he will or he won't based on his mindset. With the mindset of being a black American in Japan, I cannot see how he could let these occurences go.

The healthiest solution for him, since that sort of stress is never a good thing, is to adopt a new mindset, one that will allow for him to gracefully ignore those comments he finds insulting. A dismissive attitude in regards to this issue, perhaps. He should carve out a niche in Japan, by way of friends and coworkers, where he is part of an in-crowd. As always, my observations are only based on what I've read, so take them with a grain of salt.

[Mushu]

I’ve really tried hard to stay away from this thread as I feel most of the people commenting on it are making general assumptions and seeing things from one way of the spyglass.

I, myself, will make an assumption here and assume that most of you haven’t out side America. Vacations do not count.

You come to expect that racism has been abolished around the globe and people are treated equals. You come to think that the world has gone through the same revaluation, enlightenment and acceptant as American has gone through and you come to think that the ones that did not have are savages. You think just because you are being ‘accepted’ and treated ‘equal’ in American for the past, lets say 40 years, even though black people have been in America for over 400 years, that where ever you go you should be treated equal.

You people come assume that when someone calls you nigger, even though the word comes from the Latin word niger which means Black, that they are racist yet you use the word nigger among each other in daily bases. Same goes for the word Black even though you are; well actually you are different shades of brown but it is easier then naming different shades of brown for every brown person. Same as we say white people, even though they are not actually white, but different shades of pink.

You people play the race way to often and I think one day, if it hasn’t already happened, will be over played and you will have same situation as boy who cried wolf on your hands.

You neglect cultural differences and assume that the grass IS always green on the other and you have the nerve to call yourself open minded. You have never been outside the U.S; you have never had the chance to experience and live outside the U.S ‘box’. That’s why when you encounter something different in different culture; you automatically look into your own culture and find something similar. In this case it’s racism because they are pointing out that you are different. Different is a sense of not being the same as the majority of people there, that you have different features and attributes which does not mean anything then that you are different. While in your own society, someone pointing out or saying you are different means that they are looking down on you, that they think you are not equal or even human being and it’s wrong.

Even though you think you are equal, you are still being enslaved by words.

Side question: Don’t you think aliens would be offended by you calling them aliens, even though there might be many different types of aliens or does that not count as they are not human?


And Az, I’m sorry I can not give you any advise that has been give to by pierrot le fou others. I agree more with pierrot le fou as my mom always said ‘When in Rome, do as the Romans do’ and i was raised that way.

[alansmithee]

For everyone who doesn't see this issue as something special to blacks, I would just like to point this earlier post out:

Actually... that's not very surprising to me, because...

I admit, I used to be like that. When I first came to US from Japan, I used to be REALLY prejudice (sp?). Never before have I seen a black man. Back then, I've only met one white family before, and they worked at the same company as my dad. Meeting black people was a first for me... and I didn't understand exactly why, but I couldn't see them as people with emotions.

In elementary school, I was in ESL with two other blacks. I remember how much I hated going to ESL because I didn't want to associate myself with the black kids. And when they got picked on by other guys, I just turned a cold shoulder, or I'd laugh with everyone else. I just couldn't feel "sympathy" like I would if a Japanese person was being bullied.

...Why? Because I've never seen them before! Think about it. If an alien just walks into your school, what will you do? You'd scream, you'd run, you'd stay away, right? I mean, they might be dangerous. If a green guy moves into your neighborhood, you will you have the guts to say "Hey, welcome. Let's be friends! Do you want to come over for dinner?" I don't think so. I mean, sure, we've seen tons of aliens in movies...but in real life? That's just weird.

It's the same thing. We've heard about black people... seen them on TV...but never in real life. We didn't even have Bobby back then! It was just a black person on the outer shell... we had no idea what was inside. I was scared.

Was, that is. Yes, I'm more open-minded now. I believe I can respect them like I can respect Indians and Iranians and Koreans.

Bolding mine.

(Also, not picking on anyone, I just find this to be very telling of the possible mindset of Japanese when encountering blacks. I will echo the sentiments above that I respect people who are willing to express opinions/ideas that may show them in a negative light).

Whites (and presumably other non-black races) aren't seen as being non-human. Even if they are identified as foreigners, they are HUMAN foreigners. That is a big difference. Blacks are not identified as human, or having human qualities. And that is the mindset that does allow for degrading behavior toward blacks. There might be racism in America and abroad (and it's actually worse in America than in many places), but it isn't the sort that assumes that one race lacks humanity; it is of the nature that certain races are superior to others. That is why this seems (to me at least) more troubling than racism found in America-because in Japan many people may not realize that their behavior is wrong. And this isn't because they are bad people, it is because they don't see blacks as individuals posessing human characteristics-they are in essence a different species. Whites might be looked down upon, but it is from the basis of being inferiour humans (or foreign); blacks are looked down upon as something inhuman, more akin to a dog or object than a person.

And when I first was reading Az's story, what he did was the first thing that came to mind when I imagined what I would do in his place (even down to the chosen name [Ichiro]). But it does seem that this is an ineffective strategy, simply because blacks may not be identified as being human, so there would be a disconnect.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Incorrect.

Japan has a history of viewing white foreigners as barbarians. See the depictions of Admiral Perry when he steamboated in to Yokohama harbor.

During WWII, all of the American military (that's both white and black folk) were said to be murderous barbarians who would commit unspeakable horrors if they captured you. After the US invasion of Okinawa, around a quarter of the civilian population of Okinawa died, many of them committing suicide out of fear of what the American soldiers would do to them. White and black.

But things change, and the occupation force primarily of white people in Japan caused a sort of acclimatization to white folk. Eventually there were white celebrities on TV, white teachers in schools, and white people in daily Japanese life as there were during the Meiji period.

There just weren't as many black people. Black people were 'more outside' than white people, because they were even MORE foreign than white people were. There were no black celebrities on TV, and black people were not in the public eye. Now they are. Exposure leads to understanding, and there just hasn't been half as much understanding when it comes to black people, because of that lack of exposure. Foreign teachers have been in Japanese classrooms for over 2 decades now, a vast majority of them being white (though that is slowly changing).

You ignored half of rika's post.

Congratulations.

It ain't about race. If an albino showed up, they'd be viewed just like a black person. As something that they have never encountered, and therefore uncomfortable with. For crissakes...

[Mushu]

For everyone who doesn't see this issue as something special to blacks, I would just like to point this earlier post out:



Bolding mine.

(Also, not picking on anyone, I just find this to be very telling of the possible mindset of Japanese when encountering blacks. I will echo the sentiments above that I respect people who are willing to express opinions/ideas that may show them in a negative light).

Whites (and presumably other non-black races) aren't seen as being non-human. Even if they are identified as foreigners, they are HUMAN foreigners. That is a big difference. Blacks are not identified as human, or having human qualities. And that is the mindset that does allow for degrading behavior toward blacks. There might be racism in America and abroad (and it's actually worse in America than in many places), but it isn't the sort that assumes that one race lacks humanity; it is of the nature that certain races are superior to others. That is why this seems (to me at least) more troubling than racism found in America-because in Japan many people may not realize that their behavior is wrong. And this isn't because they are bad people, it is because they don't see blacks as individuals posessing human characteristics-they are in essence a different species. Whites might be looked down upon, but it is from the basis of being inferiour humans (or foreign); blacks are looked down upon as something inhuman, more akin to a dog or object than a person.

And when I first was reading Az's story, what he did was the first thing that came to mind when I imagined what I would do in his place (even down to the chosen name [Ichiro]). But it does seem that this is an ineffective strategy, simply because blacks may not be identified as being human, so there would be a disconnect.From one or few persons first encounter to whole different kind of people, that are different in every way visible, he condemns them all.

Congratulations.

[Ichisan]

It ain't about race. If an albino showed up, they'd be viewed just like a black person. As something that they have never encountered, and therefore uncomfortable with. For crissakes...

Racism starts with fear of the unknown. And I fail to see how it's ok to be racist so long as you are racist against all other races equally.

Your point is well-taken, i.e. that we aren't dealing with the same phenomenon people think of when discussing 'racism' in the Western context, and it is also a good point that most Japanese aren't conscious of racism but even so ignorance does not make it ok.

[Pierrot le Fou]

But you're still thinking in these Western terms.

Racism in the US and in the West in general refers to the dislike of people of race X. It is entirely different from ignorance, which is what the Japanese are guilty of. There's a huge difference between knowing and interacting with black people and deciding on a policy of disgust and malice towards them versus ignorance of black people due to lack of contact, and not knowing what to think of them.

For instance, I will make a wager that you have never eaten fish ovaries. I don't hold the fact that it sounds unappealing against you, because you're just ignorant of what it actually tastes like, and are going on a concept of it based on fantasy and imagination rather than actuality. I on the other hand have eaten them, and I despise them. The texture is this nasty crunchy foul gritty crap, and it doesn't suit me well.

Ignorance and supposition is far different than actuality. When confronted with fish ovaries, you may actually enjoy the taste and texture, whereas nothing I do will change the fact that I really really dislike eating that crap.

A racist is someone who has eaten fish ovaries (met/interacted with black people) and hates it (dislikes them). A Japanese person is like you, who has never tasted fish ovaries (met/interacted with black people). You may like them, you may not, but until you've had the chance to try, you just don't know, and go on an image of them based on ignorance rather than experience.

Can you really equate the two of these? Can you really call the latter racism? Can you really blame someone for not having had an experience that you take for granted? For not ever having an opportunity to experience this thing you take for granted?

Do you truly view these as equivalent emotions?

I can't. And I don't think that any rational person could.

[RotoruaBoy]

can't imagine if all those Japanese people go to visit the US or Africa they probably would think "WTF,Racial wars, the attack of the clones?"


anyway, given that az has been in Japan for quite some time, I'm kinda suprised that az didn't get used to something like this.

[diablotf]

I am more from an arabic/ indian subcontinent backgroud, even though i was born and bred in the UK.

I wonder who they would compare me too :eek:

[more cheerios]

As to 'more cheerios,' if the kid doesn't understand WHY they're being bitten, biting them back won't help. And if you give them a slap to the hand after they bite your ear, they're going to be confused. Furthermore, these aren't infants we're talking about -- they're young kids who need to understand what they're doing wrong in order to learn how not to do it.
Not infants, my remark was pertaining to children between the ages of four and seven. Infants will gnaw on your hand, but not to hurt you.
Also, most children 'get it' when bitten back. Children learn by imitation (as do adolescents, teenagers, adults), they know what 'biting' is. They know they've done it, they know what it looks like... so when they get bitten, they 'get it'. The feel the pinch, they know they were wrong. Sure, most parents will say, "See, that's how it feels like to be bitten."

So why not have him explain to the students why it doesn't make sense to them? Maybe he's not getting the message across that it's wrong, but he sure is getting the message across that it doesn't make any sense.

Sorry about the delayed response, but I haven't found a chance to be online in the past week or so.

You people come assume that when someone calls you nigger, even though the word comes from the Latin word niger which means Black, that they are racist yet you use the word nigger among each other in daily bases.
ACTUALLY, it's from a portuguese word and the word is 'negro'. 'Nigger' is an american bastardization of the word. And we all do not use the word among each other. That is a bullshit generalization if I've ever seen one. Sure, I disagree with people using it, but I sure as hell don't. Also, if Latinos go around calling people nigger, it is because they've seen it on American TV, not the other way around.

[raydude]

Oh? I believe that was me...
And trust me, after having Pierrot explain to me in logic what I could only explain through examples.. it IS an issue of being in/out-group. I didn't see blacks as... human, yes, but aside from that black kid, I also remember joining others and teasing a white kid. Basically, I was still living in my in-group/out-group idea, thinking I HAVE to side with the majority aka in-group, or otherwise I'll be in the minority aka out-group. That was my biggest fear, probably.


Rika,

I believe perhaps we can clear this up if maybe we flip the majority/minority group around in a hypothetical situation. Do you think that as a kid your in-group/out-group mindset would have still guided you if the blacks in your your school were the majority and the whites were the minority? Would you have tried to side with the majority, perceiving them as the in-group?

Ray

[alansmithee]

From one or few persons first encounter to whole different kind of people, that are different in every way visible, he condemns them all.

Congratulations.

I'm not condemning anyone. I do appreciate your reading what you think I said, instead of what I did say. Congratulations yourself.

[alansmithee]

Incorrect.

Japan has a history of viewing white foreigners as barbarians. See the depictions of Admiral Perry when he steamboated in to Yokohama harbor.

During WWII, all of the American military (that's both white and black folk) were said to be murderous barbarians who would commit unspeakable horrors if they captured you. After the US invasion of Okinawa, around a quarter of the civilian population of Okinawa died, many of them committing suicide out of fear of what the American soldiers would do to them. White and black.

But things change, and the occupation force primarily of white people in Japan caused a sort of acclimatization to white folk. Eventually there were white celebrities on TV, white teachers in schools, and white people in daily Japanese life as there were during the Meiji period.

There just weren't as many black people. Black people were 'more outside' than white people, because they were even MORE foreign than white people were. There were no black celebrities on TV, and black people were not in the public eye. Now they are. Exposure leads to understanding, and there just hasn't been half as much understanding when it comes to black people, because of that lack of exposure. Foreign teachers have been in Japanese classrooms for over 2 decades now, a vast majority of them being white (though that is slowly changing).

You ignored half of rika's post.

Congratulations.

It ain't about race. If an albino showed up, they'd be viewed just like a black person. As something that they have never encountered, and therefore uncomfortable with. For crissakes...

I agree with what you are saying, except for the part about it not being about race. For one, a barbarian is still a human, albeit an inferior/uncivillized one. But in your own words blacks are "more outside" than white people. If there was no racial component, this would not be true. Also, this seems to support what I was saying. If blacks are more outside, perhaps they are so far outside that they are unable to be identified with as having human traits. They are in essence seen as being outside of humanity.

Again, I'm not being judgemental. I understand that America has had more contact with different sorts of people.

[Pierrot le Fou]

You ARE being judgmental! You are insisting on painting the entirety of the Japanese population as some sort of group that refuses to acknowledge black people as human because they're black! You're refusing to look at the real honest to God fundamental reason which is that most Japanese people have never met or seen a black person before. It has nothing to do with the fact that they're black, as they would be just as surprised by a purple person, or an alien, or an albino, or a midget.

It is VERY hard to identify with a group you have never met/seen a member of!

You say it has to do with race, but the deciding factor isn't race! It could be the fact that their hair is curly. It could be the fact that their hands are different colours on the front and back. It could be any single thing that makes them noticeably different. Anything. You select race because you associate discrimination with race, and my ass you're 'not being judgemental' because the ENTIRE point of your post is that Japanese don't view black people as human because they're black rather than acknowledging the fact that they have trouble seeing black people as human because they have never previously seen a black person.

For crissakes. It's not complicated. I've given metaphors, explained the linguistics behind it. I've explained the history and the present situation, yet people still try to make this about race which is entirely incidental to the real issue at hand.

If I had just seen a purple person wander out of the forest, scratch his ass, and then pick a giant booger out of his nose and go to shake my hand, is the reason I refuse to shake his hand because he's purple? Does that make me a racist? Or could it possibly be something entirely divorced from his actual race, and more the fact that no matter WHAT his colour, I wouldn't want to touch a hand that dirty?

The problem that you're having is distinguishing between race as an identifying characteristic, and race as the reason. You're coming from a position where you know a whole boatload about different races and have met them, and are entirely oblivious to the fact that the unknown can be really bloody scary! Do you not get uncomfortable when you speak publicly? Regardless of the race of the group? If all your friends were white, and you stepped in front of a black audience, would you be more nervous because they were black, or because they aren't your friends because you have no black friends?

That's the type of situation we have here, and you need to stop trying to think about this from inside how your life has been.

[alansmithee]

You keep saying that it's not about race. It's because blacks aren't seen that much. But what is it about black people that is so different than other people? Is dark skin and curly hair really enough to make someone unable to be identified as human, regardless of prior exposure? To me, what you are saying is akin to not recognizing a white car just because all you have seen is red cars. The shape is the same, the opperation is the same, all that is essentially different is a palete swap. You say that race is incidental, but it is the things that make up someone's race that you attribute to being strange. If the identifying characteristic that make someone strange is their racial traits, then race is the cause.

Again, what is it about blacks that makes them so "unknown" if it isn't things that come from their race (and fairly superficial things at that).

[Jess]

That's the type of situation we have here, and you need to stop trying to think about this from inside how your life has been.

Blah. You don't have to stop thinking about this from your point of view. The point is not that our point of view is suddenly completely invalid. The point is that, after we understand their point of view, it's part of cultural exchange to help them understand ours.

Yes, unknown, scary, strange, foreign, smelly gaijin are scary to people in inaka little villages tucked between mountain peaks. Yes, getting them to view you as a normal person is very unlikely. But making an effort, especially with students in your own school, who you interact with for years, to get them to see your point of view, and see your cultural values and feelings.

You're also going apeshit about the black thing. The only race involved here is really Japanese vs. other scary/strange people. I realize that. Japanese people saying "You're black, that's weird" is only a subset of the "You're not Japanese, that's weird" comments. The point is that after we all understand/respect/delve into Japanese culture and world outlook and sing "Kumbaya" or whatever the fuck you want us to do as a sacrifice on the altar of Japanese culture understanding and appreciation, it is incumbent upon JET participants to attempt to exchange these cultural outlooks for glimpses of our own.

When I went to the "Internationalization Club" at the local elementary school with a teacher who was studying English and interested in foreigners and her students, we did a few things: Study Japanese cooking. Study Japanese pottery. Study the Japanese tea ceremony. Talk to the Gaijin (me). Notice something? Internationalization = making everything Japanese. While this is mostly just funny and quirky ( I really enjoyed the Japanese tea ceremony study, even if the old baa-san slapped me a lot for being left-handed ), it illustrates a point - the ones being insular here are the Japanese.

While you're going to be more successful working in the system, you will not be successful at all if you don't work on helping them see our point of view. I don't expect the typical Japanese student or citizen to accept it and adopt it as their own personal philosophy - but I do think it's worthwhile to help them see and understand it, and maybe even use it to help them improve their relations with gaijin. THAT'S WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.

[Roxie]

I love you Jess. You rock!

[Trump]

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

So yes, it is technically racism. Pierrot is describing very well discrimination and prejudice based on race. They are treating people differently because they are not Japanese whether or not it is in a terribly negative way or not. But really, IT DOESN'T MATTER whether it is called racism or not.

Relating to in-groups and out-groups, does it apply to more than just race? For example, are there many people in wheelchairs in Japan? (I'm assuming there are not, but really it doesn't matter). Would they treat a Japanese person in a wheel chair the same way they are treating Az? Would it be the same for a person with one arm? Or are these situations somehow different. Obviously they are not part of the in-group because normal Japanese don't interact with them much.

[AvgGaijin]

I absolutely hate being called Bobby. Am I overreacting?Going back to the beginning, my thought is yes and no. It may drive you crazy, but you can't do much about most of it. Clearly, there are people who feel strongly about the idea of using "Ichiro" as a retort, on both sides. Obviously, it's useless and just rude for people you don't know, but for the ones you deal with on a regular basis, who do know you, whom you do have some relationship with, it might be the thing that helps get through to them when nothing else does.

Of course, that's from American who's only visited Europe and Canada with an learned interest in other cultures and foreign things. I'm not the nail sticking out that's getting pounded on (not down), day in and day out on the altar of cultural exchange.


This may seem a bit rude, but I'll be blunt about my own experience with this kind of cultural and racial bias.

I'm an average suburban middle American--raised in a white family, in 99% white town, going to a private school with a 99% white population, going to a white church, had only white friends, and watched TV shows with mostly white people. I live in a relatively culturally diverse area (metro suburb), but I wasn't exposed to it until my teens. I had a token black person I knew and a couple from TV. It wasn't that anyone went out of the way to isolate me, it was just the way it was...

My ears still burn from a comment somebody made in jr high, "What do you think, all of us black people look the same?" At time, I honestly rather did, and suddenly it bothered me. Sure, I could identify the 2 or 3 people I knew, but I couldn't tell their family members apart. I couldn't tell random non-white people apart. I think it was mostly that I hadn't been introduced to many people of that appearance and simply could not tell their features apart. I couldn't see differences in skin shade, eye shape, hair, or any of those blazingly obvious visual things that make us obviously unique when the skin color changed from my perceived normal. (At the time that went for Indians, Chinese, Pacific Islanders, etc...)

That comment made me realize that it was an issue for me. I never learned to recognize the differences in others simply because they were "more different", and it wasn't important to me. It wasn't that I was intentionally being mean or rude, I simply didn't think anything of it. I made it a priority to fix, and I think I've done pretty well.

In college (only slightly diverse population again), I remember somebody asking me, "How can you tell them apart, all black people look the same to me." It didn't really shock me, but it was a good feeling to help someone else break down those barriers. It comes down to recognizing you have an issue and working on it. Coming from a homogeneous environment, you just don't notice it.

I think Azrael is in a position to really help some people, those he does have a relationship with, recognize this for themselves. Since they know him already, they should realize he's not trying to be cruel, but rather point something out to them since they didn't get it the first dozen times he tried to say it nicely. It may be harsh, but sometimes that's what it takes.


(Back to lurking...)

[koku]

On pierro's last comment:

Your anology about the purple being was a little fuzzy to me. It seemed like you went ahead and tried to prove something other than what you were arguing ( that there are more reasons than just skin color that mark why Japanese people might be a little weary of black people).

But then you went ahead and talked about one of the main barriers: the fact they haven't been exposed to many black people.

Isn't that race?? I understand the difference. Lack of exposure vs. knowledge and still racist, and I don't hold a flame against that, but difference in skin color is the issue here. No one thought "Oh black people are ok," waves, then runs at the sight of the black persons palm. Curly hair isn't that frightening, but I can see how a totally different race COULD be. I thought in your story you would have asked if you were racist had you though, "Oh my God. A purple person. I saw them on TV but never saw one. Should I be apprehensive about this?" The direction you took it though, I didn't quite get what you were trying to say. Perhaps just another notch on skin color/race isn't the only handicap towards making the other person seem as comfortable as they would be around their race.


Ah, screw it.

[Pierrot le Fou]

You keep saying that it's not about race. It's because blacks aren't seen that much. But what is it about black people that is so different than other people? Is dark skin and curly hair really enough to make someone unable to be identified as human, regardless of prior exposure? To me, what you are saying is akin to not recognizing a white car just because all you have seen is red cars. The shape is the same, the opperation is the same, all that is essentially different is a palete swap. You say that race is incidental, but it is the things that make up someone's race that you attribute to being strange. If the identifying characteristic that make someone strange is their racial traits, then race is the cause.

Again, what is it about blacks that makes them so "unknown" if it isn't things that come from their race (and fairly superficial things at that).

What's so different is that most Japanese people have never met them. You're reversing the cause and the effect here. You are saying that the Japanese have never bothered to meet them/consider them human because they're black. I'm saying that because they're black, and there are so few black people in Japan, the Japanese haven't had a chance to meet them/consider them human.

It's a genuine but insignicant clause (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/insig.htm). The fact that they're black is insignificant in contrast to the fact that they're unknown. Were it simply the fact that they were black, the Japanese would view black people they knew as inhuman as well, because they're black, or would cease to see a penpal as human if they found out he was black.

Things that are unknown are strange. Seeing a purple person would be strange. Sure, it's just a pallette switch, but I'll be damned if you'd view them the same as you'd view a black, white, asian, or hispanic.

Blah. You don't have to stop thinking about this from your point of view. The point is not that our point of view is suddenly completely invalid. The point is that, after we understand their point of view, it's part of cultural exchange to help them understand ours.

Yes, unknown, scary, strange, foreign, smelly gaijin are scary to people in inaka little villages tucked between mountain peaks. Yes, getting them to view you as a normal person is very unlikely. But making an effort, especially with students in your own school, who you interact with for years, to get them to see your point of view, and see your cultural values and feelings.

You're also going apeshit about the black thing. The only race involved here is really Japanese vs. other scary/strange people. I realize that. Japanese people saying "You're black, that's weird" is only a subset of the "You're not Japanese, that's weird" comments. The point is that after we all understand/respect/delve into Japanese culture and world outlook and sing "Kumbaya" or whatever the fuck you want us to do as a sacrifice on the altar of Japanese culture understanding and appreciation, it is incumbent upon JET participants to attempt to exchange these cultural outlooks for glimpses of our own.

When I went to the "Internationalization Club" at the local elementary school with a teacher who was studying English and interested in foreigners and her students, we did a few things: Study Japanese cooking. Study Japanese pottery. Study the Japanese tea ceremony. Talk to the Gaijin (me). Notice something? Internationalization = making everything Japanese. While this is mostly just funny and quirky ( I really enjoyed the Japanese tea ceremony study, even if the old baa-san slapped me a lot for being left-handed ), it illustrates a point - the ones being insular here are the Japanese.

While you're going to be more successful working in the system, you will not be successful at all if you don't work on helping them see our point of view. I don't expect the typical Japanese student or citizen to accept it and adopt it as their own personal philosophy - but I do think it's worthwhile to help them see and understand it, and maybe even use it to help them improve their relations with gaijin. THAT'S WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.

Point to one place in this thread where I said that we shouldn't try to communicate our cultural values and feelings. I've said that there are ways to do it, and ways not to do it. One good way is to discuss racism in the US, and then show them examples of racism in Japan -- like 'no foreigners allowed' signs. One bad way is to call a Japanese person 'Ichiro' which shows them nothing, doesn't have them understand the cultural context at all, and serves no purpose.

I have NEVER said not to make an effort, I've just stated that without an understanding of where they're coming from, you're going to be incapable of showing them where YOU are coming from.

Furthermore, the reason I'm going 'apeshit' over this 'black thing' is because people outside of Japan don't seem to realize that black folk are a subset of the foreign treatment, and therefore are just 'more strange' because they're less present. But instead of, y'know, stating that in support of what I'm saying and try to fix people's perceptions, you've decided to rail against me for something that I've never recommended doing (ignoring cultural exchanges).

Perhaps you would be better off actually directing yourself in the proper direction on this one rather than barking at me as if I'm doing something horribly wrong.

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

So yes, it is technically racism. Pierrot is describing very well discrimination and prejudice based on race. They are treating people differently because they are not Japanese whether or not it is in a terribly negative way or not. But really, IT DOESN'T MATTER whether it is called racism or not.

Relating to in-groups and out-groups, does it apply to more than just race? For example, are there many people in wheelchairs in Japan? (I'm assuming there are not, but really it doesn't matter). Would they treat a Japanese person in a wheel chair the same way they are treating Az? Would it be the same for a person with one arm? Or are these situations somehow different. Obviously they are not part of the in-group because normal Japanese don't interact with them much.

It does matter whether it's called racism or not. It's called xenophobia which you can go ahead and post the definition to as well if you'd like. It has nothing to do with the actual 'race' part, it has to do with the 'not-me' thing. And until about 10 years ago, people with disabilities were hidden from public view for the very reason that they are not a part of the in-group, and people were ashamed of them.

But God forbid the intricacies of the situation extend beyond race, or some simplistic explanation. God forbid it's an entirely different cultural context with a different set of cultural/social rules that can't be dumbed down into a singular word or concept that you are all familiar with.

On pierro's last comment:

Your anology about the purple being was a little fuzzy to me. It seemed like you went ahead and tried to prove something other than what you were arguing ( that there are more reasons than just skin color that mark why Japanese people might be a little weary of black people).

But then you went ahead and talked about one of the main barriers: the fact they haven't been exposed to many black people.

Isn't that race?? I understand the difference. Lack of exposure vs. knowledge and still racist, and I don't hold a flame against that, but difference in skin color is the issue here. No one thought "Oh black people are ok," waves, then runs at the sight of the black persons palm. Curly hair isn't that frightening, but I can see how a totally different race COULD be. I thought in your story you would have asked if you were racist had you though, "Oh my God. A purple person. I saw them on TV but never saw one. Should I be apprehensive about this?" The direction you took it though, I didn't quite get what you were trying to say. Perhaps just another notch on skin color/race isn't the only handicap towards making the other person seem as comfortable as they would be around their race.


Ah, screw it.

Purple skin would be very strange and unfamiliar to you or I.

Black skin is strange and unfamiliar to the Japanese.

The color of the skin is not the issue, the unfamiliarity is. That's why I used purple skin. Because it's strange. I could say 4 arms if it'd make you feel better, or perhaps if the person had their hips turned around backwards. Would that make it a better example?

Unfamiliarity.

[alansmithee]

What's so different is that most Japanese people have never met them. You're reversing the cause and the effect here. You are saying that the Japanese have never bothered to meet them/consider them human because they're black. I'm saying that because they're black, and there are so few black people in Japan, the Japanese haven't had a chance to meet them/consider them human.

It's a genuine but insignicant clause (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/insig.htm). The fact that they're black is insignificant in contrast to the fact that they're unknown. Were it simply the fact that they were black, the Japanese would view black people they knew as inhuman as well, because they're black, or would cease to see a penpal as human if they found out he was black.

What I'm not seeing is how skin color can be so different as to cause someone to not associate blacks as human. I'm sure there is people who have skin colors that I haven't seen before, but that wouldn't make me thing they aren't human. The problem that I see is instead of being seen as a person whose skin happens to be darker, blacks aren't even seen as human. Having to meet someone similar isn't a requirement for acknowledging their humanity. And I am well familiar with that link, I have used that sight myself when making points. But in this one, being black isn't insignificant if it's the entire basis for being seen as not human. And as to Japanese not seeing black as human if they get to know them, I have recently gotten a couple of penpals/language exchange partners from Japan and I would never let on that I am black. From what I have observed, it's better to be safe than sorry.

And a little explanation on my earlier comments where I said I wasn't being judgemental-I was attaching no negative or positive connotation to what I was saying. In many ways I agree with your position, although I don't agree with your choice of words. I would say that it is racist behavior, but I would also acknowledge it is based more on ignorance than hatred or other negative emotions.

Things that are unknown are strange. Seeing a purple person would be strange. Sure, it's just a pallette switch, but I'll be damned if you'd view them the same as you'd view a black, white, asian, or hispanic.

I agree with you here, in that I wouldn't view them the same. However, I also wouldn't assume they weren't human simply because of a different skin color.

[Azrael]

I haven't been paying attention to this thread because, well, it's gotten pointless. I skimmed the last two pages, and caught one idea - it's not a race thing. To the Japanese, there's "Japanese", and "Not Japanese", the end. That is true. But there is a racial aspect. I wouldn't say there was if there wasn't, as I'm the last person to ever do that kind of thing.

I just saw Bobby on TV. I usually turn the channel in disgust, but this time I decided to stick it out and actually watch. He was walking down the street of a shopping arcade, randomly interviewing housewives. Obviously, he speaks and understands Japanese. That takes intelligence. All of that was negated however as he walked down the street slightly hunched over, speaking in a oaf-ish voice, keeping his eyes nice and bucked.

He talked with Japanese people. Other people on the street were stopping to take pictures. He even picked up a little girl and talked with her and her mother. Obviously, the Japanese liked him and were entertained by him. But it wasn't anything out of respect. This is a gross over-statement, but I honestly can't think of any other way to express it - it was like people fawning over an ape at a zoo.

I'm mostly over the annoyance of getting called Bobby. I may still snap one of my students in line from time to time, but it's not boiling my blood anymore. But one thing remains unchanged - I hate Bobby.

Or maybe what I really hate, is that we went from Bob Sapp, who acted sub-human to get a rise out of the Japanese, to Bobby, who also acts sub-human to get a rise out of them. And then this mindset, this attitude gets transferred to me just because we're of the same race. What I really hate is that the Japanese have NO OTHER image of black people. That's it - Bob Sapp, Bobby, and rappers like 50 Cent and Juvenile on MTV. What I really hate is when I try to give them something other than this distasteful image to broaden their limited horizons, I get called Bobby for my efforts. And what I really hate is how when Bobby falls off the radar, the next black guy will come along and do THE SAME DAMN THING, nothing will change, and Japanese people will call whatever other black person they see by the new guy's name.

This is something you will not understand unless you were in my position. Unfortunately.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Bobby has also been on a show talking about Nigeria.

He has also been on a show with his mother.

He has also been on a cooking show in which he made a ton of dishes on his own for a month.

He has a gimmick, but Japanese comedians have gimmicks too, and you're making Bobby out to be worse because you don't like his despite usually just changing the channel. All the Japanese adults that I have asked think that Bobby is very intelligent, and very funny, and neither of these is negative, or gawking at him like he's in a zoo, but watching him just like they watch every other comedian on TV.

If you dislike him, that's fine, but when you attribute your dislike and image of him to what every Japanese thinks of him, you're taking it a step too far and assigning malice where there likely isn't any.

[Hira-Kata to Sawa]

Here's my two bits. Az is pissed, rightly so. Why? Cause kids are calling him names, associating him with someone he isn't. Doesn't matter if Bobby is "cool". He's a teacher, the kids here need to learn some respect. If I had kids here calling me Frodo they'd get chokeslammed for their indiscretions. Adults acting ignorant, on the other hand, have no excuse. Pierrot seems to think that this is due to lack of knowledge...am I, by the same token, supposed to be allowed to assume that, since I have never met a French person or been to France, all French are to be associated with Inspector Cleusseau? No, of course not...since that logic is ridiculous. Never meeting xx ethnicity/ xx nationality is no excuse to associate them with stereotypes. It happens in other countries...these people just need to grow up. But in closing.... yeah, stick it to the kids~

[Pierrot le Fou]

Okay, I give up.

The Japanese are from this point forward to be described as 'those fucking racist Japs' and will forever be known by their discrimination against black people because they called Az 'Bobby.'

Because, y'know, Inspector Clouseau is the only French person in his movies. And because, y'know, Bobby is just one of HUNDREDS of black people that every Japanese person interacts with daily. And y'know they make a conscious decision to be racist despite their plethora of knowledge.

So every time I see a Japanese person from now on, I will scream, 'kokujin ni sabetsu shi-sugi!'

And they will all magically reform.

I am glad that I came to this conclusion.

[Frankey-eh]

What I really hate is when I try to give them something other than this distasteful image to broaden their limited horizons, I get called Bobby for my efforts.

Maybe I should have asked earlier, but who exactly are these students? Are they students you know very well and have shown respect to you as a teacher previously, like Moeko and Ultimate Sweetness? Or are they kids who sit at the back of the class at the School of Peace, barely doing their work? And the adults. Are the adults your coworkers like Ms. Americanized? Or someone who've had disrespected you before aside from the Bobby issue?

[CandleLight]

Okay, I give up.

The Japanese are from this point forward to be described as 'those fucking racist Japs' and will forever be known by their discrimination against black people because they called Az 'Bobby.'


Hello, I'm a new user but I've frequented this website and forum since I found the link on SomthingAwful but I just had to say something.

I'm sorry but, Mr. Fou, you are missing the point and are overreacting. They are not calling the Japanese racist, they are calling their actions as such, and the fact that they are not trying to improve themselves in that aspect is annoying (case in point, Azrael's announcement to the school.) Also the problem is half and half. It is at the same time racism and it is not. The fact that the country IS so xenophobic does not help the race realations along.
The point I'm trying to make is that, if you belive it or not, alot of the Japanese population (especially the younger generation) believe all african-americans behave like the ones on television because that is the only way that they are exposed to them and other peoples.
I'm sorry but your post so far have been trying to excuse the Japanese which comes off as you believeing they are better than the average man. They are human to0. Humans tend to separate people because of different things be it ideals (red and blue states) religion (christians, muslims, jews, buddist, etc.) or race;the country of Japan is no exception.

People do it here, what excuses them from thinking the same thing. They may or may not be aware of their actions not doubt, but there is no excuse for their actions either way. I'm sorry but nothing new is under the sun. And no one is excused from ignorance. It IS wrong what they are doing and what Azrael did was a normal reaction, but all things in moderation.

I do not know if you understand or even WANT to but this is what everyone is trying to say. I was more heated about this earlier so it may not be so coherant than what I was origanally post, but hopefully someone will understand if you don't and clear it up for you. And if you don't get it maybe this thread should be locked (hint, hint Azrael).

Kids will be kids but what excuses the supposedly wiser adults?

I have to go. Got mattresses to look at.

[Mushu]

Okay, I give up.

The Japanese are from this point forward to be described as 'those fucking racist Japs' and will forever be known by their discrimination against black people because they called Az 'Bobby.'

Because, y'know, Inspector Clouseau is the only French person in his movies. And because, y'know, Bobby is just one of HUNDREDS of black people that every Japanese person interacts with daily. And y'know they make a conscious decision to be racist despite their plethora of knowledge.

So every time I see a Japanese person from now on, I will scream, 'kokujin ni sabetsu shi-sugi!'

And they will all magically reform.

I am glad that I came to this conclusion.I’ll join ya; we will do T-Shirts, Boards and march through the street of Kyoto.

[koku]

Purple skin would be very strange and unfamiliar to you or I.

Black skin is strange and unfamiliar to the Japanese.

The color of the skin is not the issue, the unfamiliarity is. That's why I used purple skin. Because it's strange. I could say 4 arms if it'd make you feel better, or perhaps if the person had their hips turned around backwards. Would that make it a better example?

Unfamiliarity.


This is why I got confused. I followed you up to this point of your analogy, but then you talked about how the purple person had a dirty hand and traced the dirty hand to the reason you didn't want to shake his hand -- instead of the unfamiliarity. I knew what you were trying to say, it's just your explanation took a different turn then what you were arguing this whole time.


kokujin is on your side; no need to get hosile :)

[Mushu]

Okay, I wasn’t going to argue with this, but seeing as you people are going all over the place with your arguments, here goes nothing.

Did you people ever, by any chance notice the name calling Az does in his editorials like Noisy fucker 1&2, Watson, Cherry boy etc. He associates them with their actions and looks, which is all fun and shit but when they do it to him, it’s all racial and shit. Cnome dogs, what’s up with that?

Here is something else for you people to think about: let’s say I, peirrot le fou and kokujin are in the same bar having fun and we don’t know each other. Suddenly kokujin gets loud and shit.

Now if I get up and say ‘Yo nigga, shut the fuck up’, nothing much will happen, except that either he will quiet down or start messing around and getting in my face, in which I’ll have to lay him down. But if peirrot le fou gets up and says the same thing, he is a racist.

Now you are thinking ‘why the hell would peirrot le fou say “nigga”’ when he knows that the word is associated with slavery and he should know this because he is an American and that it’s something that happened in U.S history, that it’s in history books and should know better’ right?

Now try to see this from a Japanese person’s point of view, that don’t know the history or even better, try to see this from a white person’s point of view that lived during the slavery. Keep in mind that the Japanese people aren’t calling him nigger as almost all of them don’t know the origin of the word or its significance.

Ps
FYI more cheerios, Portuguese is a “romance” language derived from Latin, look it up dog.

[Lambda]

I would point and scream in classic cheesy Japanese: "GODZILLA"!!

[koku]

You can't lay me down Mushu; you love me too much :)

And why do I have to be the loud one? *whine* (God, we need some better smilies).

Everyone making the racism arguement, just put yourself in their (japanese person living in Japan) shoes. No. Really do it.

Imagne EVERYONE you see on a daily basis is your own race. Imagine it's very possible that you'd make a comment like, "whoa! I saw a black person today!" Imagine all the conversations you've ever had with people, are among people of your race. Now also through in the outside and inside complex (uchi/soto and the need to be able to identify with an uchi/inside), and if you actually do this, you can begin to make out why you'd react in such a manner.

What's the foreign population in Japan? Most the people making the arguement get disgusted because they know better. Well, put yourself in similar shoes, it's very possible you won't better. And if you do learn, it's going to take a while for it to soak in -- especially if you're a god damn kid.

Oh well. I'm out of this conversation. If you're going to take anything in though, just like PLF said and like i've been adviced before, there are plenty of ways to solve problems like these and a lot of times the 'Japanese way' works best. I've questioned and interviewed a lot of people that have spent a lot in Japan about the whole racial thing, and the ones that I've seen succeed, are the ones that took the time to understand the way of thinking and the way to solve things. It's amazing how much of a difference it makes.


Good luck Az and everyone else though.

[CandleLight]

Okay, I wasn’t going to argue with this, but seeing as you people are going all over the place with your arguments, here goes nothing.

Did you people ever, by any chance notice the name calling Az does in his editorials like Noisy fucker 1&2, Watson, Cherry boy etc. He associates them with their actions and looks, which is all fun and shit but when they do it to him, it’s all racial and shit. Cnome dogs, what’s up with that?


Yes but he's not doing it to their face. And his nicknames for them are not race related. Not to mention he needs to call them something that we can identfy with without giving up thier name.

I'm sorry but comparing personality with race is pathetic. What he does is not even close.

And his nicknames are not associated with thier looks. Ultimate Sweetness looks are not elaborated, he may have mentioned one or two times how cute she is but he's is mostly downed by her ultimately sweet actions. And what about Watson? For the longest time I didn't know he was kinda chubby until he mentioned it in his post. And it wasn't him describeing him it was a student.


This thread should die, seriously....

[seta-san]

i wouldn't take it to much heart. as you said in one of your articles you said seeing yourself in the mirror, and then realizing that strange black man was yourself, was enough to freak you out. Imagine you lived your whole life in a mostly homogenious society where the exposure you have to other people comes from MTV and sports channel... the *stereotypical* professions that black people can only make money (foolish rap, "gangsta" lifestyle of MTV). I mean really, before you came to japan could you really tell one asian from another? can you even now? In their isolationists world one black man IS another black man... except michael jackson :p

[stsparky]

In their isolationists world one black man IS another black man... except michael jackson :p

Where's the love? You have to educate people one by one. If "Ichiro" is the way to open up someone's eyes - then we all shall do it. FYI - Michael and I were in school together for a little bit and you've got it all wrong; The reason for his winning his court case was because he didn't diddle the kids. So lose the hate please. - Sparky

[seta-san]

who's saying i hate anyone or anything? I was giving michael jackson a hard time because japanese people, from what i read on this site, love and adore him dispite their inability to pick out any other specific african from a crowd.

Where's the love? You have to educate people one by one. If "Ichiro" is the way to open up someone's eyes - then we all shall do it. FYI - Michael and I were in school together for a little bit and you've got it all wrong; The reason for his winning his court case was because he didn't diddle the kids. So lose the hate please. - Sparky

[stsparky]

who's saying I hate anyone or anything? I was giving Michael Jackson a hard time because japanese people, from what I read on this site, love and adore him dispite their inability to pick out any other specific African from a crowd. I guess I am. Think about what you've written. And you'd be wrong. Black American males Japanese people know include: Bill Cosby, Stevie Wonder, James Earl Jones, Muhammed Ali, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Sammy Davis, Jr., Morgan Freeman, Will Smith, and Larry Fishburne. And that's not even talking about Black American Jazz performers. Osaka is quite the spot to visit. They're lionized in clubs like the Overseas, Blue Note, Don Shop, Hard Rain, Mr. Kelly's, New Suntory No. 5, Royal Horse ... - Sparky

[SoulPlay]

Bobby...you forgot bobby.

[sponge_girl]

Well Az, they left you no choice. Call those punks "Ichiro" then. Don't feel too bad about it. The dark side will forgive you, I will forgive you.

I'm Asian-American so I know how it's like to be judged. There are very stupid people in the world and there's nothing we can do about it. Sometimes you have to be mean for these type of people to understand.

[seta-san]

and again... where's the hate? Perhaps i was generalizing but where the hate? I can't think of a single person or group of persons i hate... The closest that i come to any of that is that i DISLIKE the french after some extensive experience. If i hated someone i'd come out screaming something rediculus like "white power". So please, don't make baseless claims.

I guess I am. Think about what you've written. And you'd be wrong. Black American males Japanese people know include: Bill Cosby, Stevie Wonder, James Earl Jones, Muhammed Ali, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Sammy Davis, Jr., Morgan Freeman, Will Smith, and Larry Fishburne. And that's not even talking about Black American Jazz performers. Osaka is quite the spot to visit. They're lionized in clubs like the Overseas, Blue Note, Don Shop, Hard Rain, Mr. Kelly's, New Suntory No. 5, Royal Horse ... - Sparky