Languages rant, a dilemma, insight appreciated

[Argo]

Ok so this is my situation now. I'm a attending a good univeristy with good language programs and I happen to be a fan of languages. It took me awhile to figure that out but it's moved from an interest to a hobby for me. For some reason thats what I really actually enjoy learning about (languages). As such, once I was planning college courses, I leapt at the chance to take a new language. Being quite proficient at spanish after six years in school I wanted to take something new and challenging. I immediately ruled out romance languages, because in my head I figured I learned the best one (spoken by the most people and spoken by peoples whos cultures I like the most) and wanted something new. Since our school provided a vast array of choices I milled it over for quite sometime until I realized I wanted to take an Asian language. Narrowing it down between Chinese, Japanese, and Korean my logic went like this.

Chinese - My handwriting is ass, and mass rote memorization of characters will be taxing. Tones sound extra difficult and no offense China, nice olympics and all, but the PRC is a bit backwards and dirty. Hong Kongs cool... Cantonese... wait even if there were a class available... 7 tones? errr.

Japanese - cool language, cool culture, cool country. They do have characters too. I could probably manage it, but it could be difficult. Wait, so many lame white people take Japanese because they have some really childish romanticization of what Japan is like. The Otakus and the videogame fans, are these going to be the people in my class? I heard Japanese is quite difficult in general, I mean I could probably do it. hmmmmmm

Korean - Hey I like the food, dont know much about the culture. Hey the Koreans I know are pretty cool. Ohhh no tones and an alpahbet? wow, thisll be quite a bit easier. Hey I don't know much about Korea I could learn something new. Oh and Its still a decently hard challenge. I'll try this out.

So I took Korean. Now for some extra information and what followed.
First off, Ive always been really interested in Japan and not at a superficial level. Despite what accusations you may lay down I'm being serious. I dont like Anime much at all and Im a casual "gamer" at best. Since I was very young I'd read quite a bit about Japan, the history, the military history, the feifdoms, the samurai, the geography, the culture, zen buddhism, the biography of hirohito. The interest started quite young. I cant put a finger on it but the country just intrigued me more than any other.

In fact when I began Korean I kind of felt a slight pang of regret about not pursuing Japanese. But I figured hey I will still have three more years left if I dont like this Korean thing. Now some quick information about Korean itself. Despite its alphabet making it an ease to read, there is little easy about Korean. In fact Korean is often called much harder to learn than Japanese and one of the hardest languages to learn in the world. Now onto my experience in class. This is where the problems start. I absolutely loved my Korean teacher and the class. Like seriously my Korean teacher is the nicest, most sincere, and funniest woman I have ever met. On top of that she is a great teacher who makes learning a hard language much easier. She is easily in my top 10 favorite people period. I left the class everyday with a smile and my mind dwelling on what I had just learned. I progressed quite well and managed to learn a lot in a year. I also managed to get an A- in the class which was not at all easy. But, as time passed and I began to learn more about Korean culture and some of the issues people had faced there I began to think.

I had originally planned to teach in Korea after graduation for at least a few years and then play it by ear. But I began to hesitate. Is this the culture I want to immerse in? Are they even that friendly to foreigners? (Now I know in Japan its not always fun to be a gaijin, but from all accounts Ive heard being a waeguk is harder and Koreans are much less open to foreigeners, I mean it was called the "hermit kingdom"). pollution is bad sometimes as well, and Ive heard the culture in general can just be a lot more offensive. Then I thought wow, I handled Korean and pulled off an A- without taxing struggle, I couldve definately tackled Japanese. I am beginning to think I might have passed up on a better path for me for stupid reasons so I have this great urge now to take Japanese, but at the same time I still have this hope and at least some belief that Korea can be a friendly, interesting, and cool place. As the draw of learning Japanese grows greater it bothers me a bit because I really want to take it but I also dont want to abandon my amazing teacher and the Korean language.

I really really dont know what to do at this point. I could pull off three years of Japanese at school and Im really motivated when it comes to languages so I believe I could progress very far. Then again Ive already progressed well in Korean but our school only provides three years of college Korean. Gahh.

Now, I know this can be a very aggressive forum to say the least. But let me stress again, my interest stems from a love of languages and an interest in Japan itself, not its shiny superficialities. I also am very aware of the difficulty of the language. But, as I said Language is one of the few things I like learning about, its not something I bullshit around with. During my year of Korean, aside from the textbook, I talked with Korean friends, read Korean on the internet (news etcP watched Korean tv shows and movies (looking up new words and phrases along the way), and I have a Korean penpal. Regardless, please if you could, advice, anecdotes, and insight are welcome and appreciated.

[Hikoku-Y]

Can you take both languages next term? Seems like that would solve the problem pretty easily, and it would give you a chance to decide whether it's worth it to ditch Korean so you can study Japanese full time.

Frankly, you have no idea what it's like to live in Japan or Korea, and there's no way that you'll be able to tell which country suits you better without the experience of living in both places. There really is no subsitute for personal experience in this regard. If you overanalyze it you're not going to be doing yourself any favors--you'll still be just guessing, but you'll probably have convinced yourself that you're doing more than guessing. Though being a foreigner in Japan does seem to be quite a bit easier in general terms than being a foreigner in Korea, there's no way to know how you personally are going to deal with life here (Japan) or in Korea.

Now, to address another one of your points. A couple friends of mine have studied Korean seriously (and studied abroad in Korea). My impression as a long-time student of Japanese is that Japanese is quite a bit harder to learn, simply because of kanji. The mechanics of the language are not so different from Korean, but there's an additional, massive layer of information that you will need to memorize by rote.

I'm not surprised that you felt like Korean was very difficult having spent 6 years studying Spanish. I studied French for a few years and it was a complete joke compared to Japanese, incredibly easy to learn and speak. It's all relative.

[ミュー]

Learn Japanese.

Forget Korean.

Why? Economically speaking, pretty obvious. Korea has got a long way to go. And honestly, I'm willing to bet it will never really 'get there'.

Japan and Japanese is a roller coaster ride that will either send you into absolute bliss or complete despair. Either way, I have everything to owe to choosing to live here. The only question to ask yourself is: are you crazy enough?

[japanat]

I live in Japan, and have visited the Pusan area and love the people.

But I have a very blunt series of questions you might want to think through:
Are you male or female? Western, or Asian? If Western, what ethnicity? Comfortable with macho culture?

If you're female, Japan may be a better choice for living. Korean mother-in-laws are, according to my Canadian friend, a true terror. She hated living with his family, and he was truly apron-stringed. Sexism was pretty rampant, too. She divorced in 15 months and headed back to Canada.

If you're male, it often, especially in smaller towns in the countryside, is still the old boy network, with carousing and gifting of sexual partners sometimes still present. And, aw shucks, it's an insult to say no...

Like most cultures in Asia, Westerners are often treated better than other Asians would be. To be fair to Korea, Japan is probably as bad in this regard, if not worse. And during the periodic anti-American riots, you want to take care to not appear American (one of my buddies, an American, sewed a pretty large Canadian flag to the back of a windbreaker to wear when the riots would break out). I visited a week after some riots in Pusan, and was spit on as I got off the ferry. The rest of the time, however, I was treated extremely well, much friendlier than I've ever been treated by strangers in Japan.

And in my experience, the men, especially middle-aged and older, were pretty damned macho (again, not a totally unfamiliar experience in Japan). I hate "face" and all its accompanying bullshit.

Language-wise, I don't see a huge difference between Korean and Japanese, other than the writing systems. They even sound similar to the untrained ear like mine.

I agree with Hikoku that you should try to take both the languages side-by-side, and see if that makes it easier to make a choice. If you find that you like them equally, consider the fact that you can't take 4th year Korean. Or grunt it out and take both as far as you can - then try to work using them in tandem with English (movies, music and fashion have a lot of crossover between the 3, for example).

[Argo]

For the record I'm a white American male.


Hikoku: I'm not really predicting how my future would go in either country, but Japan has always interested me, and not superficially either. Therefore I'd figure it'd be closer to my tastes as far as living is concerned. I didn't think Korean was necessarily difficult or strenuous, it was hard, and took much study but the process wasnt shocking or overwhelming. Point is I handled it and am certain I can take Japanese if I wanted. Like I said Korean is also a difficult language so I aware of the challenge.

"Korean is a very difficult language - one of the most difficult there is. At first Korean looks simpler than Japanese and Mandarin, since it uses no tones and has an alphabet. But as you progress you enter a maze of grammatical complexity and discover that the alphabet is supplemented by an ideographic character system of Chinese origin. If you want to have complete fluency - the language is probably the hardest you can find, harder than Chinese or Japanese."

What one website had to say about the language. Also the prospect of taking two hard language courses ontop of my other load this year is not appealing.

[atomiton]

Korean has more sounds and more politeness levels, but their written language is dead easy.

Hangul is possibly one of the most logical writing systems in the world.

However, in the end, I'd honestly recommend Chinese. China is MUCH more than just the PRC. The language is spoken all over the world. Taiwan has a very distinctive culture as well. Most people in Hong Kong speak Mandarin now too.

You don't need to buy the propaganda to speak the language.

[atomiton]

For the record I'm a white American male.


Hikoku: I'm not really predicting how my future would go in either country, but Japan has always interested me, and not superficially either. Therefore I'd figure it'd be closer to my tastes as far as living is concerned. I didn't think Korean was necessarily difficult or strenuous, it was hard, and took much study but the process wasnt shocking or overwhelming. Point is I handled it and am certain I can take Japanese if I wanted. Like I said Korean is also a difficult language so I aware of the challenge.

"Korean is a very difficult language - one of the most difficult there is. At first Korean looks simpler than Japanese and Mandarin, since it uses no tones and has an alphabet. But as you progress you enter a maze of grammatical complexity and discover that the alphabet is supplemented by an ideographic character system of Chinese origin. If you want to have complete fluency - the language is probably the hardest you can find, harder than Chinese or Japanese."

What one website had to say about the language. Also the prospect of taking two hard language courses ontop of my other load this year is not appealing.

Yes, the grammatical complexity is similar to Japanese. And yes, they use Chinese Characters. About a 1000 of them, if I'm not mistaken.

THe FSI (Foreign Service Institute (http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/november/learningExpectations.html) of the Department of State) in the US, considers Japanese, Chinese and Korean as Category III languages, though ranking Japanese a tad higher than others in its class.

In the end, it really depends on you. These charts illustrate why it's difficult to rank a language:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3103/2609980715_8cba5eeed2_o.png
source (http://www.sinosplice.com/life/archives/2008/06/25/learning-curves-chinese-vs-japanese)

The Japanese phoneme system has far fewer sounds than Korean or Chinese. Its complexity lies in its writing system and in reading. Multiple pronunciations for almost every character, with few rules as to when to use each pronunciation.

I have a Korean friend who finds Chinese easy for Koreans... as they share a lot more words. I have read that Korean is 70% Chinese conversationally, and Japanese is 48%... though I don't know where those numbers are based.

In the end, they're both difficult languages for English speakers, though you may find more resources for learning Japanese on the web.

You really have to analyze your goals. Do you care about conversation, or about reading/studying?

What do you like about languages? The human-to-human communication/cultural exchange, or the historical origins and study of history of how the language developed.

If you just care about communication, it's likely you'll find Japanese a touch easier to understand and speak... especially as you're probably over the whole "SOV" (Subject Object Verb) thing by now that both languages share.

[Kyletherealninja]

Those charts are interesting. Based on my learning, Japanese has a very steep initial learning curve - you have to learn all the kana, basic grammar and vocab, and at least 200-300 kanji to really get going. But it seems once you get to the intermediate stages the curve is less dramatic - grammar is really straightforward, there's just a lot to learn; the only real challenge is learning keigo and informal speech/dialects (although the latter is something you have to grapple with in just about any language.) For kanji, 500-1000 tend to be the most common, and provided you know the vocab, reading gets a lot easier by that point. At this point in learning I almost never have "head banging against the wall" moments where I just don't understand something I'm trying to learn. You just need patience and endurance to work your way up once the steep curve turns into a straight line.

Korean has always struck me as much easier than Japanese or Chinese, especially since it has an alphabet and limited use of Chinese characters. On the other hand, Chinese seems harder than the other two combined since you have to learn far more characters, in simplified and traditional form, plus grapple with tones and many dialects.

[h2orowe]

If you're still somewhat interested in Chinese, as a person who took Vietnamese (another tonal language), tones aren't THAAAAAAAT hard. I only took one year of it in high school, but at the end of the year, I was speaking clear enough to be understood. The only thing is, if you want to take a tonal language, get a really good friend who speaks the language fluently to help you. Tones are easy to hear after a week or sometimes even a day, but they don't come out easy for a while unless you have someone tutoring it to you.

I didn't bother with tones in Vietnamese and I got along fine until towards the end of the year where we did a lot more oral presentations. I did this presentation that was pretty well written and, in fact, besides half the kids in the class who already spoke it fluently, I was the kid who understood it/wrote it best. However, when I went up in front of everyone to speak it, halfway through, my teacher stopped me and said she didn't understand a single word I said. (She didn't teach us how to speak so much as to write, so it was kind of unfair for the kids who didn't grow up with it in their household [which were most of the kids in the class, only 5 or 6 out in the class didn't already speak it at home.])

So, she gave me a week to study it, and my friend taught me how to pronounce tones better. I got an A on the project. :cool:

Moral of the story: if you actually want to take Chinese, tones won't be hard if you're passionate about it. Tonal languages are hard but it feels great FINALLY being understood in a language you had been learning for a few months where everyone just went "tôi không biết" (I don't understand) previously.

[koku]

I just wanna say being interested in Japan because of the history, 'cuz you read a book or zen buddhism really doesn't make you all that better than someone who started liking Japan for anime or pop culture. Not you specifically but I just see so many people justify themselves and their interest by goin' the whole "Oh, I like this other boring stuff, so I'm cool and safe." I think If you have your interest and you're a solid stable human being, then I think that is what counts (and I guess this is where some Otakus may fail). Most likely you're just weird for another reason, no how.


Sorry to kinda go off topic.

All right, as for the thread: a lot of foreigners end up going to Korea and they have fun. I do think life there will be a bit harder but, if you really want to live there, don't let an idea of "how tough it can be" swell up into this giant reality and chase you away from something you want. Is it possible for you to spend 1 month or something over summer? I think the hardest part by far is making a long-term 5+ year decision based on just an idea of what Korea (or Japan) is like. If you graduate in only 3 years, why not take both? The bulk of your learning doesn't happen until after you arrive in Korea or Japan, anyways. 2-3 years in college is generally just a solid introduction to the language.

Good luck. Anecdotes and other people's stories are only going to get you so far, though. Eventually you'll just have to make a decision based on your instincts. And I agree a lot with what Hikoku said.

[Eddie Echoplex]

And during the periodic anti-American riots, you want to take care to not appear American (one of my buddies, an American, sewed a pretty large Canadian flag to the back of a windbreaker to wear when the riots would break out). I visited a week after some riots in Pusan, and was spit on as I got off the ferry. The rest of the time, however, I was treated extremely well, much friendlier than I've ever been treated by strangers in Japan.

And in my experience, the men, especially middle-aged and older, were pretty damned macho (again, not a totally unfamiliar experience in Japan). I hate "face" and all its accompanying bullshit.

Good thing I'm mexican, and I show it (tanned skin, curly dark hair, but some americans keep asking me if I'm from a middle-eastern country, Morocco is the most common).

There's a chance I might go to Tokyo next year, but I'm not quite sure yet.

[atomiton]

Moral of the story: if you actually want to take Chinese, tones won't be hard if you're passionate about it. Tonal languages are hard but it feels great FINALLY being understood in a language you had been learning for a few months where everyone just went "tôi không biết" (I don't understand) previously.

This is true. I started learning Tinh Viet as well... but just casually. Once you master the low and super-low tones and "ng" at the beginning of words, it gets easier.

Mandarin may have a lot of dialects, but you really only need to learn the official one. Everyone understands that one. Cantonese has a tonne of dialects and more tones.

[koku]

Yeah, the guy said he wanted a challenge. I like what Joey said too -- if you love it, you'll figure out a way to succeed at it.

[Argo]

I just wanna say being interested in Japan because of the history, 'cuz you read a book or zen buddhism really doesn't make you all that better than someone who started liking Japan for anime or pop culture. Not you specifically but I just see so many people justify themselves and their interest by goin' the whole "Oh, I like this other boring stuff, so I'm cool and safe." I think If you have your interest and you're a solid stable human being, then I think that is what counts (and I guess this is where some Otakus may fail). Most likely you're just weird for another reason

You really summed up my interest quite quickly huh? damn that one book I read, that one time on that one thing. You see my point was my interest started with an appreciation of the multiple facets of the culture. I wasnt drawn to Japan, or the prospect of taking Japanese because I wanted to watch animes or play games or because it's fashionable. I added that fact because I feel that liking a countries culture is more important than liking its pop culture. (Seriously does American Idol, 50 cent, and 24, have anything to do with actual American culture? Is liking it going to mean you'll adapt to NYC culture, or Nashville, or wherever?)


All right, as for the thread: a lot of foreigners end up going to Korea and they have fun. I do think life there will be a bit harder but, if you really want to live there, don't let an idea of "how tough it can be" swell up into this giant reality and chase you away from something you want. Is it possible for you to spend 1 month or something over summer? I think the hardest part by far is making a long-term 5+ year decision based on just an idea of what Korea (or Japan) is like. If you graduate in only 3 years, why not take both? The bulk of your learning doesn't happen until after you arrive in Korea or Japan, anyways. 2-3 years in college is generally just a solid introduction to the language.

Good luck. Anecdotes and other people's stories are only going to get you so far, though. Eventually you'll just have to make a decision based on your instincts. And I agree a lot with what Hikoku said.

I never made made a 5 year decision already anywhere also btw. I'd do a play it by ear approach. Again any imput I appreciate. So keep it coming please if you could.


Also to those that have mentioned it I'm really not hot on learning Chinese. I'd entertain Cantonese, but thats a less than .1% possibility of happening right now. I'm looking to choose between Korean and Japanese this year, taking both dose not appeal to me either.

[mikem]

I just wanna say being interested in Japan because of the history, 'cuz you read a book or zen buddhism really doesn't make you all that better than someone who started liking Japan for anime or pop culture.

It does make you better than a lot of Japanese people though. It has become an accidental pastime of mine to educate Japanese people about their own culture and history. The sad thing is I really don't know much more than what you can find on English wikipedia.

@OP:
If you want to take Japanese then just take it. There are a lot of cool side benefits if you do enjoy any parts of the culture. I personally don't like most anime, despite repeated attempts to watch it, but I do find it is a lot funnier now that I understand the culture more and don't have to focus as much on the subtitles.

Also, as Mew pointed out, economically speaking you are much better off choosing Japanese or Chinese. Don't underestimate that side of the equation.

[koku]

To the OP: ...I think the point was missed. You don't have to defend your "reason for liking Japan." My point was neither yours, mine, his, hers, an Otaku or anyone's really matters/is 'better' than the other. Like I wrote, if you're a pretty cool guy with your head screwed on, then it really shouldn't matter what part of Japan got you to like it.

I added that fact because I feel that liking a countries culture is more important than liking its pop culture. (Seriously does American Idol, 50 cent, and 24, have anything to do with actual American culture? Is liking it going to mean you'll adapt to NYC culture, or Nashville, or wherever?

Even in that extreme case, if that's how some Japanese person STARTED looking into America (hell, some of those shows are pretty entertaining), I don't think it's so bad. I hope they quickly learn the reality and if they still want to come, sweet.

But yeah, good luck on your decision. I've met people that have studied both -- it's do-able. It's also easy to spend years at both places via the English whore route.

It has become an accidental pastime of mine to educate Japanese people about their own culture and history. The sad thing is I really don't know much more than what you can find on English wikipedia.

haha sweet. I'm guessing most Japanese people don't find that offensive or anything -- I bet they get a kick out of it.

[daidokoro]

Learn Japanese first, and then Chinese.

Learning 1000+ kanji has made studying Mandarin a lot easier for me. I know there's the whole simplified vs traditional character difference, but you can't argue that I don't have a leg up compared to some total novice.

I don't understand why you refuse to learn Mandarin but entertain the thought of learning Cantonene, which is much MUCH more difficult. Mandarin is going to be a very useful language in a competetive job market, whereas Korean probably won't be.

[MNJetter]

I don't think Korean is a completely useless language, economically. Sure, it doesn't have much of an impact right now, but I have been hearing lately that Korean electronics are the fastest growing of any country at the moment. They've been getting a lot of attention and a lot of rewards at recent tech shows. Even if they don't become the next economic bubble a la postwar Japan, there will still be a use for people who speak the language in the near future.

I am in a similar situation right now, trying to decide between languages. After having gotten comfortable with my Japanese conversation ability, I'm now back in the United States, where I don't need any language in particular for survival, and all are available for casual learning. I've got too many choices, and I don't know what to do with them, but Korean is among my top three (Korean, Spanish, Mandarin).

I figure Korean will be an easy transition from Japanese, as it has similar grammar, and I've heard a lot of it on TV, so I am familiar with the phonemic set.

I figure Spanish will be useful locally, since there are a lot of Spanish-speakers in the states.

I figure Mandarin will be valuable career-wise, since not a whole lot of native English speakers learn it due to its difficulty. Also, it sounds fun and would be a challange.

I might just give in and try learning all three at once. Hey, I learned German and Latin and Greek and Japanese all at once in college. Maybe it'll work again.

[Chinpokomon]

Take Japanese. From what you say, you sound more interested in it.
It's what all the cool kids are studying anyway.:cool:

I also recomend dropping Korean, as studying both languages at once will probably have a detrimentaly affect on your rate of learning.

I started studying Japanese because of video games, but I agree with Koku on this one. I'm happy that you already appreciate the culture through your own research, and it's certainly a breath of fresh air to hear about someone who didn't follow the Path of the Otaku. But I don't think that my preference for pop culture over history, zen buddhism, and martial arts makes me any less appreciative of the culture.

If anything, I think having a healthy appreciation of pop culture allows me to follow conversations, make jokes based on the current popular comedians, and generally fit in better with the general population. I doubt that an extensive knowledge of Japanese history would be quite as entertaining at nomikais. :frypan:

[ak24]

My first language is Korean, so I wouldn't say it's too difficult for me, lol...

But, in a foreign perspective as I was learning Japanese, I think Japanese is easier for you guys to learn.

Writing-wise, Korean should be easy, but talking-wise, or pronounciation-wise, it will be difficult.

I say: take Japanese. Then, maybe learn Korean after.

They have similar grammar and some vocabulary words are same afterall.

[Argo]

I started studying Japanese because of video games, but I agree with Koku on this one. I'm happy that you already appreciate the culture through your own research, and it's certainly a breath of fresh air to hear about someone who didn't follow the Path of the Otaku. But I don't think that my preference for pop culture over history, zen buddhism, and martial arts makes me any less appreciative of the culture.

If anything, I think having a healthy appreciation of pop culture allows me to follow conversations, make jokes based on the current popular comedians, and generally fit in better with the general population. I doubt that an extensive knowledge of Japanese history would be quite as entertaining at nomikais.

Didnt mean to come off as bashing j pop culture fans. Was just trying to illustrate that because of my interest in Japan and languages. The pursuit wouldn't be something to evaporate quickly when faced with difficulties. I do like some J pop culture as well dont get me wrong. If I'd took the class id be supplementing with movies and simple books as well. If I came of negative my bad.


My first language is Korean, so I wouldn't say it's too difficult for me, lol...But, in a foreign perspective as I was learning Japanese, I think Japanese is easier for you guys to learn. Writing-wise, Korean should be easy, but talking-wise, or pronounciation-wise, it will be difficult. I say: take Japanese. Then, maybe learn Korean after.They have similar grammar and some vocabulary words are same afterall.

I've already taken a year of 한국말. Now thats why my decision is harder.

[koku]

Can you handle both? I mean honestly, 1st and 2nd semester of a language in a College isn't too hard - just a lot of busy work. You may not have ample time to study both to your heart's content but it could make the decision making process easier.

[Chinpokomon]

Yes, why be good at one language when you can be mediocre at many!

[ミュー]

Yes, why be good at one language when you can be mediocre at many!
Because saying "I can speak X languages" is cooler than actually being able to speak more than one of them worth a shit! :hat:

I speak Japanese! konnichiwa!

[Argo]

Quick probably stupid question. I know Japanese is written left to right on the internet, but isnt it done right left in other sources? How common is that, and is it confusing? (Korean is handily written with spaces, punctiation, and left to right)

[atomiton]

My first language is Korean, so I wouldn't say it's too difficult for me, lol...

But, in a foreign perspective as I was learning Japanese, I think Japanese is easier for you guys to learn.

Writing-wise, Korean should be easy, but talking-wise, or pronounciation-wise, it will be difficult.

I say: take Japanese. Then, maybe learn Korean after.

They have similar grammar and some vocabulary words are same afterall.

Pronunciation is more difficult at first, but nothing too difficult. Again, it really depends on what one's goal is. Conversational fluency early on, or a medium-term goal of literacy in the language.

Quick probably stupid question. I know Japanese is written left to right on the internet, but isn't it done right left in other sources? How common is that, and is it confusing? (Korean is handily written with spaces, punctuation, and left to right)

The only stupid question is the one isn't asked... unless you're on the internet... then the only stupid question is the one that isn't googled. :duh:

Hehe... j/k. Japanese is only written right to left(RTL) in two places. When it's written vertically, it goes top to bottom and then RTL... and in magazines or manga, the text is written horizontally(LTR) and/or vertically but the sections read RTL... so in Manga, you'll read the first box on the top right and go left and then down.

[Riinuka]

I love everything I can get my grubby little hands on regarding Japanese culture/history/language. I buy various dictionaries just for the hell of it, and want to take linguistics (and try to get another language squeezed in) during my college career, alongside this lovely little language.

I'm also an anime fan, love video games and their music (though already being a music fan and playing instruments helps with that appreciation)..

I don't know how much you know about Japanese. It starts out with learning a mirror set of phonetic "alphabets", hiragana and katakana. (first used for Japanese words / second used for foreign words, ads sometimes, and emphasizing things).

Most college classes start you out learning these, and have you switch to writing/reading in them right off. You slowly start to learn simple kanji, which in the final result are mixed in with hiragana (usually to form verbs), and with other kanji (nouns). An example would be : 行きる。 The pronunciation follows Spanish pretty closely, and goes "i-ki-ru". That first character is kanji, obviously. The meaning is "go", and it forms the stem of the verb. Based on the hiragana following it, you know the pronunciation.. the teacher will go over it with you.. The two hiragana, ki and ru, form a tail, which change the tense into what's called 'dictionary' form. (Some kanji, like 日, are really common, and have many different sounds based on what word compound they are found in.. teachers will go over common combinations with you, and will help you with them. Much easier than it looks.)

日本　－Ni.hon (Japan)
日曜日 - Nichi.you.bi (Sunday) ((Notice there are two of the same kanji, each with a different sound.. fun fun.))
今日 - Kyou. (today) This one's a bit unique - the sound comes from this specific combination only, and isn't divided between the two kanji components.

Thankfully, the kanji system for sets (like counting, days, etc), is very simple once you get the rule set down. Days, for example, with literal translations as I remember them (and therefore not accurate).

日曜日　－Nichi.you.bi (Sunday, "sun day"）
月曜日　－Getsu.you.bi (Monday, "moon day")
火曜日　－Ka.you.bi (Tuesday, "fire day")　
水曜日　－Sui.you.bi　（Wednesday, "water day")
木曜日　ーMoku.you.bi　（Thursday, "tree/wood day")
金曜日　－Kin.you.bi (Friday, "gold day")　
土曜日　－Do.you.bi (Saturday, "dirt/ground day")

That's the one thing I really like about Japanese. (And, about almost all of my other interests). There are patterns, and a distinct rule set.. (Pronunciation never deviates in the phonetical sense, something English sadly does a lot of.) Aside from three exceptions, all verbs conjugate the same way, according to what class they are. (Three exceptions are 'iku', 'suru', and 'kuru', whose conjugations you would go over explicitly, and aren't too terrifying.)

I can't really think of anything else to add in right now. I don't have any experience with Korean, but the kanji component of Japanese isn't nearly as daunting as the Chinese experience would be, at least in my opinion. Oftentimes, since the meaning might be similar in Chinese/Japanese, and if you're lucky Chinese/Korean, you may even get a kanji that you kind of know the meaning of, if you do decide to go down the Japanese path.

Kanji are kind of fun if you can get used to picking up radicals, or associating what they look like as opposed to the meaning. （I.e,　山　Kiiiinda looks like a mountain, which is what it means.)

That's it for now I guess. > >;

[Takuto]

@Rinuuka
Way to go off topic with a Japanese lesson that no one asked for.

@Argo
Stick with Korean and then pick up on Japanese. You'll probably go through a smoother transition that way. Also, all east asian languages (Japanese, Chinese, Korean) can be written in both horizontal/left to right or vertical/right to left format. More traditional/formal writing (Ex: calligraphy writing, newspapers, some store signs, most books) tend to be vertical/right to left though.

[koku]

Yes, why be good at one language when you can be mediocre at many!

because he can't decide yet and if he picks to just focus on one later, he can ditch the other. :bored: Stop being a little pansy and misunderstanding my posts, son. I'll call the cops on you.

[Plekto]

I have to say that the picture about grammar difficulty is wrong. The graph would look like that if it were German or Russian, but really, Japanese is almost the reverse of the Chinese one. The Grammar is really simple. Russian grammar - that's really really hard. As in actual migraine trying to learn hard.

The Kanji... Well, in truth, the entire Chinese set is technically used, but in *print* and in signs and so on, only 2000, and maybe 500-1000 being really common. The others show up rarely or are special or in names. It's really a beautiful thing that they did a few generations ago to simplify it, because the language has hardly changed, yet the speed and flexibility improved a lot as a result(plus the basic 500-1000 of those 2000 are simple and quick to learn, and once you get them, you can pretty much ignore most of the rest as many Japanese do as well).

ie - instead of memorizing the entire system and methodology, it IS possible to wrote memorize the entire Japanese subset and leave it at that. Not as functional and elegant a solution, but you can't do that with Chinese at all. And, as mentioned, a LOT of kids in Japan do exactly that, since they can survive well enough without knowing the other tens of thousands of Kanji.

My recommendation would be to concentrate on Japanese, since that's the end goal) and take the Kanji and shelf it entirely for a year or two. Then it becomes no different than most languages. I like it compare it to Hebrew, which has quite a few similar traits. You have a bunch of odd symbols and a fixed alphabet with singular pronunciations for each one and so on as well, plus fairly direct grammar. Learn the symbols and sounds and start memorizing. Kanji can come later or in tiny doses if it's melting your mind. Because like most languages, speaking is more critical than reading or writing it, and technically in Japanese, you could write it all out in Hiragana and not use the common-usage Kanji replacements. They might look at you a tad oddly, like someone writing in stuffy old "proper" English, but it would still be clearly understandable. And that's the real goal IMO - to communicate.

[atomiton]

sort of off-topic... but Japanese Pop Culture like anime and manga are all a very intrinsic part of the culture. anyone who writes it off as Otaku fanboyism either considers themselves "elite" or is actually in love with the romantic history of Japan and not today's Japan... and may end up being disappointed.

Being interested in Samurai and tea ceremonies is fine, but it's equivalent to thinking being interested in Cowboys or Lewis & Clark makes you a more authentic learner of American English than someone who's interested in learning the lyrics to Nirvana or Surfing catch phrases.

Ask most Japanese 20-somethings about Samurai and tea ceremonies and the majority won't know or care enough to remember what they learned in grade-school or learned from NHK History Dramas. However, ask them about Crayon Shin-chan or their favorite Miyazaki anime film or what their favorite manga-kan artists is or how much they like or hate Dragon-ball Z, tamagotchi and pokemon and they'll likely be able to go on for hours.

It's best not to have a romantic ideal of a culture and just go and experience it without prior expectations.

[koku]

w00t to atomition. Anyone here studied Korean for a long time? Did you find it all that useful?

Actually, to the OP, maybe find a forum of people who studied Korean and ask them their long term reflection on the idea.

[Argo]

sort of off-topic... but Japanese Pop Culture like anime and manga are all a very intrinsic part of the culture. anyone who writes it off as Otaku fanboyism either considers themselves "elite" or is actually in love with the romantic history of Japan and not today's Japan... and may end up being disappointed.

Being interested in Samurai and tea ceremonies is fine, but it's equivalent to thinking being interested in Cowboys or Lewis & Clark makes you a more authentic learner of American English than someone who's interested in learning the lyrics to Nirvana or Surfing catch phrases.

Ask most Japanese 20-somethings about Samurai and tea ceremonies and the majority won't know or care enough to remember what they learned in grade-school or learned from NHK History Dramas. However, ask them about Crayon Shin-chan or their favorite Miyazaki anime film or what their favorite manga-kan artists is or how much they like or hate Dragon-ball Z, tamagotchi and pokemon and they'll likely be able to go on for hours.

It's best not to have a romantic ideal of a culture and just go and experience it without prior expectations.

Jeeze, apparently I hit a nerve here. Never claimed to be elitist, and my interests go beyond history. I also said culture. Like age relations, societal structure, etiquette etc. And again I do like some J pop culture. I just prefaced my interests in the beginning to avoid being mischaracterized. J pop obsession can never be good, just like American pop obsession isnt good. Don't read too far into it.

Anyways, thanks to all of you for responding. I'm still wondering about the complexity of Japanese sentences in general. Korean for instance is not only agglutinative, but has many tenses that imply different things.

for instance I've already learned three future tenses that conjugate very differently. (Keep in mind this is only conjugated in one of the 3 respect forms)

갈 거예요 - (kal keoyaeyo) I will go
갈래요 - (kalaeyo) I will go because I want to
갈게요 - (kalgaeyo) I will go for you (because I am fulfilling your desire)

Does Japanese have many agglutinative aspects and tense conjugations?

[ミュー]

sort of off-topic... but Japanese Pop Culture like anime and manga are all a very intrinsic part of the culture. anyone who writes it off as Otaku fanboyism either considers themselves "elite" or is actually in love with the romantic history of Japan and not today's Japan... and may end up being disappointed.
Oh, they are? What is the intrinsic value of cartoons? They are a form of entertainment and advertising, not some building block of society. Today's Japan is the aging society, fleeters being afraid of commitment, moving to Tokyo and abandoning the countryside, educational bloat and limited gains, etc etc for those on the way down. On the up, liberalized business ideals, freedom to change jobs, encouragement of entrepreneurship, booming luxury goods market, posh clubs, high fashion, etc.
Economic and social activity is what drives Japan's culture. Animation is a spin-off from this. There are the elementary animations like Doraemon, Sazae, and Ghibli that people grew up with. Then there are the middle school oriented things like Dragonball, Naruto, whatever and that's the fanbase starts to thin into population sectors.
The anime girls, maids, and tentacle monstrosities are aimed at otakus and lonely men; there is only one importance to it. They have failed to achieve, at least in their own minds, and use the cartoons to escape the reality of their failure. These people also tend to commit suicide.

Being interested in Samurai and tea ceremonies is fine, but it's equivalent to thinking being interested in Cowboys or Lewis & Clark makes you a more authentic learner of American English than someone who's interested in learning the lyrics to Nirvana or Surfing catch phrases.
Being interested in Samurai should be separated between idealism and realism. The Samurai code was a real system of respect, honor, and servitude; but reality was not full of perfect samurais. There were the rich ones who ruled their han with an iron fist and worked their peasants to death; and others who got drunk all the time, slashed each other up at crazy temple parties, and had shitty stipends.
Tea ceremonies? It's more about the conversation than westerners realize. You make the tea, but then there's some gossip etc. It's the old school female camaraderie, makin' tea and talkin' shit. Or something like that.

Ask most Japanese 20-somethings about Samurai and tea ceremonies and the majority won't know or care enough to remember what they learned in grade-school or learned from NHK History Dramas. However, ask them about Crayon Shin-chan or their favorite Miyazaki anime film or what their favorite manga-kan artists is or how much they like or hate Dragon-ball Z, tamagotchi and pokemon and they'll likely be able to go on for hours.

It's best not to have a romantic ideal of a culture and just go and experience it without prior expectations.
This is untrue. There are people who may know a lot about both, either, or all of the above. The way you generalize Japanese people and culture is not a proper analysis of reality. 20 somethings grew up during the 80s and 90s, when there were those kind of shows on TV. Their parents grew up in the 60s and 70s, when there were a lot of samurai dramas. There's an obvious effect on what people know based on generation, not preference.
It's best to know about the culture of the people whose language you study, but to generalize them and make uninformed decisions on their nature based on these generalizations is a disservice to all.

[Vic_Rattlehead]

They're a shower of bastards!

5 weeks to go :(

[japanat]

Oh, they are? What is the intrinsic value of cartoons? They are a form of entertainment and advertising, not some building block of society. Today's Japan is the aging society, fleeters being afraid of commitment, moving to Tokyo and abandoning the countryside, educational bloat and limited gains, etc etc for those on the way down. On the up, liberalized business ideals, freedom to change jobs, encouragement of entrepreneurship, booming luxury goods market, posh clubs, high fashion, etc.
Economic and social activity is what drives Japan's culture. Animation is a spin-off from this. There are the elementary animations like Doraemon, Sazae, and Ghibli that people grew up with. Then there are the middle school oriented things like Dragonball, Naruto, whatever and that's the fanbase starts to thin into population sectors.
The anime girls, maids, and tentacle monstrosities are aimed at otakus and lonely men; there is only one importance to it. They have failed to achieve, at least in their own minds, and use the cartoons to escape the reality of their failure. These people also tend to commit suicide.


Being interested in Samurai should be separated between idealism and realism. The Samurai code was a real system of respect, honor, and servitude; but reality was not full of perfect samurais. There were the rich ones who ruled their han with an iron fist and worked their peasants to death; and others who got drunk all the time, slashed each other up at crazy temple parties, and had shitty stipends.
Tea ceremonies? It's more about the conversation than westerners realize. You make the tea, but then there's some gossip etc. It's the old school female camaraderie, makin' tea and talkin' shit. Or something like that.


This is untrue. There are people who may know a lot about both, either, or all of the above. The way you generalize Japanese people and culture is not a proper analysis of reality. 20 somethings grew up during the 80s and 90s, when there were those kind of shows on TV. Their parents grew up in the 60s and 70s, when there were a lot of samurai dramas. There's an obvious effect on what people know based on generation, not preference.
It's best to know about the culture of the people whose language you study, but to generalize them and make uninformed decisions on their nature based on these generalizations is a disservice to all.Damn, I guess you're not only about the chase, after all! This was a very insightful post.

Myuu's right, all. Language defines culture at the same time as culture defines language, and to believe that only pop culture, or only 'high' culture, define the language will leave large gaps in your knowledge.

[mikem]

haha sweet. I'm guessing most Japanese people don't find that offensive or anything -- I bet they get a kick out of it.

Heh, the reactions are pretty unique really. Sometimes they are embarrassed for not knowing simple historical facts. Sometimes I just look like a history nerd.

It's too late now, but just try telling people happy anniversary on August 6th. No one will have a clue what you are on about. However do it on September 11th and everyone gets it. Japan is funny that way.

Damn, I guess you're not only about the chase, after all! This was a very insightful post.

Mew is crazy smart. It's ridiculous. Even completely drunk he's smarter than me on my best day.

[koku]

lmao is it really "happy" anniversity on the 11th? :O Japan is funny.

[Riinuka]

@Rinuuka
Way to go off topic with a Japanese lesson that no one asked for.
Go troll somewhere else. Apparently the OP didn't mind it.

Jeeze, apparently I hit a nerve here. Never claimed to be elitist, and my interests go beyond history. I also said culture. Like age relations, societal structure, etiquette etc. And again I do like some J pop culture. I just prefaced my interests in the beginning to avoid being mischaracterized. J pop obsession can never be good, just like American pop obsession isnt good. Don't read too far into it.

Anyways, thanks to all of you for responding. I'm still wondering about the complexity of Japanese sentences in general. Korean for instance is not only agglutinative, but has many tenses that imply different things.

for instance I've already learned three future tenses that conjugate very differently. (Keep in mind this is only conjugated in one of the 3 respect forms)

갈 거예요 - (kal keoyaeyo) I will go
갈래요 - (kalaeyo) I will go because I want to
갈게요 - (kalgaeyo) I will go for you (because I am fulfilling your desire)

Does Japanese have many agglutinative aspects and tense conjugations?

Answering your question. Someone needs to help me add to it, because I'm still learning and I'm not very far along.. But, there are different verb conjugations depending on who you are speaking to, who will be doing the action, who you are in relation to them, and what the reason for doing it is. To relate it similarly to yours, I guess..

行きますーI go / I will go (there isn't a clear distinction here..)
行きたいーI want to go (Dunno how to do yours yet)
行きませんか　、　いきましょう　－Won't you go with me /　Let's go

Basic, in my case. ._.;

An example sentence? 林さんのはなすで、三村さんは焼肉を食べたいそうです。　
（Hayashisan no hanasu de, Mimurasan wa "yakiniku wo tabetai" sou desu.)
（According to what Hayashi said, as for Mimura, he wants to eat yakiniku.）

Hmm. Maybe a bit more of an explanation about what you want besides tenses.. Structure? Complexity of particles? Don't mind me - I'm half asleep right now. > <;

[EIJI]

An example sentence? 林さんのはなすで、三村さんは焼肉を食べたいそうです。　
（Hayashisan no hanasu de, Mimurasan wa "yakiniku wo tabetai" sou desu.)
（According to what Hayashi said, as for Mimura, he wants to eat yakiniku.）


Nice try, but.....
林さんの話では、三村さんは焼き肉を食べたいそうです。

At first I thought your sentence meant;

林さんのはなすで、三村さんは焼肉を食べたいそうです。
Hayashi-san wants to eat なす/eggplants, Mimura-san wants to eat yakiniku.
:) :)

[ミュー]

Damn, I guess you're not only about the chase, after all! This was a very insightful post.

Myuu's right, all. Language defines culture at the same time as culture defines language, and to believe that only pop culture, or only 'high' culture, define the language will leave large gaps in your knowledge.
You'd be surprised how many people are willing to generalize Japan, especially scholars. Perhaps they wish to avoid complex and confusing explanations which may appeal to a larger audience, but the facts are oftentimes glossed over.

Japanese political history cannot be accurately studied in English. I read a few books on the subject, in Japanese and English, and the western (esp. American) writers really make the Japanese sound like dogs incapable of democracy.
Huge democratic progress was made over the course of 200 years, but they just disregard it as rubbish. I think their own personal failures in understanding the reality of Japan's history jump out of the text on several occasions.

Heh, the reactions are pretty unique really. Sometimes they are embarrassed for not knowing simple historical facts. Sometimes I just look like a history nerd.

It's too late now, but just try telling people happy anniversary on August 6th. No one will have a clue what you are on about. However do it on September 11th and everyone gets it. Japan is funny that way.
I'm preaching to the choir here, but I have to say that Japanese university students are very guilty of only learning that which they have interest in. Don't you feel some of this, even among your own friends? Everyone joins stupid circles which leads to what I like to call "circle jerking" and the eventual spiral of many aimless, useless minds into fleeter jobs.

For those that haven't heard this one already, the phrase many Japanese (and me) like to associate with these types is 平和ぼけ
This theory contends that 50 some years of peace for Japan has made young Japanese very soft and unwilling to strive for progress. They speak impolitely and wear loud clothing, but the best rebellion or social expression they can pull off is some shit stolen from Western pop culture.

Mew is crazy smart. It's ridiculous. Even completely drunk he's smarter than me on my best day.
Tell this to my lame GPA. Maybe then they will offer me a special grant that I can subsequently use to further my studies on women and beer.

Go troll somewhere else. Apparently the OP didn't mind it.
I'm sure he's really just jealous of your amazing Japanese abilities. We're all too busy drooling in awe at your ability to explain basic Japanese in nauseating detail.

Oh shit, my mind is starting to melt... Quick! someone get some brew to put out the blaze!

[Riinuka]

You know what, I fail to see why anyone's jabbing at my posts. I didn't attempt to start anything, and tried to reply with what the OP wanted. I didn't ask for overly-sarcastic responses, and don't understand why I'm getting them.

I'll wait for the OP to clarify whether they got anything from what I posted or not. Seeing as how they implied they don't know that much/barely anything about Japanese, I personally don't -see- a problem with posting some basic stuff. Plus, as I've said.. I'm starting out, I can't put anything more than that.

Thanks for nothing.

[Ichisan]

As a student of Korean, I can confirm it's very hard, especially at first. I was never good at learning languages in school but few people really find Korean easy, and I'd have to say pronunciation is still a problem despite my now having a fairly good grip on the basic grammar. Basically, it's a lot of work, and to be honest I'm not working nearly hard enough at it at the moment. I'd rate myself at low to mid intermediate, which isn't impressive at all.

I would say it's better to learn Japanese first, Korean second. Everyone I know who already knew Japanese had a huge leg up on learning Korean.

*You've already got your head around the very different grammar (they're not identical but the basic structure is similar).
*A lot of cultural and lexical concepts are the same.
*Kanji. If you know kanji from learning Japanese you'll find it much easier to learn Korean. Despite being alphabetic, hanja (the Korean equivalent to kanji) are extremely important in Korean, not because you have to read them but because they're the basis for so much vocabulary. They can unlock the meaning of so many words for you.
*Korean is getting better in this regard but there are still a lot more resources for learners of Japanese to help beginners.
*Korean is much harder to pronounce. Japanese is pretty easy for Westerners to pronounce but Korean is full of difficult combinations of vowels and consonants, also phonemes that to us sound almost indistinguishable, and Korean is agglutinative which makes it hard on listening too.

So, despite the fact that it'll be easier to learn the alphabet in Korean, everything else that makes Japanese difficult will still be there in Korean, plus a couple of other things.

[EIJI]

Riinuka, don't get me wrong.

I just thought your mistake is something like cute things. You could say in Japanese, "かわいい間違い".
I always do "かわいくない間違い" in English.:duh:

[ミュー]

You know what, I fail to see why anyone's jabbing at my posts. I didn't attempt to start anything, and tried to reply with what the OP wanted. I didn't ask for overly-sarcastic responses, and don't understand why I'm getting them.

I'll wait for the OP to clarify whether they got anything from what I posted or not. Seeing as how they implied they don't know that much/barely anything about Japanese, I personally don't -see- a problem with posting some basic stuff. Plus, as I've said.. I'm starting out, I can't put anything more than that.
You know why? Because you're answering questions he didn't ask as well as giving inadequate answers to his questions. Let's recap:

Quick probably stupid question. I know Japanese is written left to right on the internet, but isnt it done right left in other sources? How common is that, and is it confusing? (Korean is handily written with spaces, punctiation, and left to right)
I don't see how your random Japanese lesson answered that in any capacity.

for instance I've already learned three future tenses that conjugate very differently. (Keep in mind this is only conjugated in one of the 3 respect forms)

갈 거예요 - (kal keoyaeyo) I will go
갈래요 - (kalaeyo) I will go because I want to
갈게요 - (kalgaeyo) I will go for you (because I am fulfilling your desire)

Does Japanese have many agglutinative aspects and tense conjugations?
Your answer touched on agglutination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative) a little bit, but really didn't do much at all by way of answering the question.

A proper answer would look something like:
Japanese is also an agglutinating language, adding information such as negation, passive voice, past tense, honorific degree and causality in the verb form. Common examples would be hatarakaseraretara (働かせられたら), which combines causative, passive, and conditional conjugations to arrive at the meaning "if (subject) had been made to work...", and tabetakunakatta (食べたくなかった), which combines desire, negation, and past tense conjugations to mean "(subject) did not want to eat".
As for tenses, Japanese has two: past and present/future. The latter is determined by the subject matter.

As for specific examples:

>>I will go:
行く (base)
>>I will go because I want to
行きたいから行く (not agglutinative)
However, if it were "I want to go" then it would be
行きたい (agglutinative)

>>I will go for you (because I am fulfilling your desire)
あなたが行って欲しいから行く (not agglutinative)
But if you were to say "I will let (you) go"
行かせる (agglutinative)

I think it could be said that while both are indeed agglutinative, Korean is more so than Japanese.

Thanks for nothing.
No, thank you for nothing! You're the one who in fact posted a whole lot of it.

[MNJetter]

Hehe... j/k. Japanese is only written right to left(RTL) in two places. When it's written vertically, it goes top to bottom and then RTL... and in magazines or manga, the text is written horizontally(LTR) and/or vertically but the sections read RTL... so in Manga, you'll read the first box on the top right and go left and then down.
I've never seen a manga in which the text was written horizontally, at least in the text boxes. They are written vertically, and you turn the pages from the right-hand side of the book.

>>I will go for you (because I am fulfilling your desire)
あなたが行って欲しいから行く (not agglutinative)

I would think that, in general, that nuance would be covered by 行ってあげる (agglutinative), even though the literal meaning isn't 100% the same.

[jindojim]

This has been a interesting thread.
I sort of browsed through everything and want to just give my own insight as someone who is, according to Chinpokomon's terminology, someone that's "mediocre" in a couple of languages instead of good at just one (besides English) :P Growing up with Korean parents and studying Korean seriously for a year in college while at the same time taking 3 years of Japanese in college and living in Japan for a year and now being married to a Japanese woman has given me some insights into both languages. Despite this, I can't give you a clear answer as to which language you should end up taking. Knowing both well of course would be ideal, but both languages have their own merits. If you were to ask me, I'd tell you to become proficient in Korean not because of its advantages or my personal bias but because it's far better to reach near fluency in one language than to switch to a brand new language in the midst of becoming truly proficient. In my case, I would love to spend time mastering either one of those languages (probably more Korean though because of it's more useful in America), but I just don't have the time. Really, beyond the cultural and practicality factors of both Korean and Japanese, reaching fluency should be your primary goal.

In response to Korean and Japanese verb tense forms, they both agglutinate with the exception that Korean sometimes uses a different word, "ahn", in front of the main verb to indicate a negative construction whereas Japanese incorporate that construction into the verb conjugation itself.

[japanat]

Just as a general note: Can we be a little more civil, here?

The advice was offered in a good spirit, regardless of whether it was perfectly accurate. Riinuka said she's just trying to give advice and examples on what the OP would face switching study to Japanese. Hell, "agglutinative" sounds like something that happens when you leave crackers in milk!

Let's all just relax. If the OP doesn't like the advice, they can say so.

[ZylitoL]

갈게요 - (kalgaeyo) I will go for you (because I am fulfilling your desire)
Just for reference, there's a secondary interpretation of this.
갈게요: 1. I will go for you (because I am fulfilling your desire)
2. A mere statement of saying "I will go/leave."

Depends largely on the tone of voice, and to a lesser extent, the context of the dialogue.

Eh...I don't really have much to say apart from that. If you like Korean, pursue it and go all the way. Better to fluently speak 1 language and really nail it.

[Chinpokomon]

This has been a interesting thread.
I sort of browsed through everything and want to just give my own insight as someone who is, according to Chinpokomon's terminology, someone that's "mediocre" in a couple of languages instead of good at just one (besides English) :P

*points at self* Mediocre in Spanish.:cool:


I would think that, in general, that nuance would be covered by 行ってあげる (agglutinative), even though the literal meaning isn't 100% the same

The nuance of 行かせてあげる is totally agglunitagious :bwitch:

[Argo]

Thanks everybody so far. As far as the Riinuka spat was concerned. I appreciated both responses. Any primer on any language interests me, its my nature. And Myu answering questions is always appreciated. No need to fight. I still haven't made my decision yet, but in the course of two days Ive started studying the Kana just for fun. I'd say I'm 75% proficient in in recognizing/writing Hiragana, and 50% in Katakana so far. Side note, wow, Katakana's symbols are insanely similar, even though critiquing written Japanese is overdone, I mean come on seriously they couldve tweaked the symbols a bit more.

[vasca]

Haha, I still have a hard time reading kana no matter how many times I start rememorizing the alphabet. I rather not waste my time at this point and just continue to memorize more kanji. 160 kanji is still very little. >_<

To the OP: I really can't help you because I've never taken korean and don't have much of an interest in living there (I kinda dislike Korea because they don't let anyone foreign who's HIV positive no matter how they got infected in the first place to land an honest job there when it isn't a 3rd world country full of analphabetism. It spews ignorance to me which is something I wouldn't accept while living there. You can make fun of Mexico for mnay things, but not that the country kicks you out because of a disease diagnosis that's supposed to be private information in the workplace in the first place).

But politics aside, choose which language you both like the best and see yourself using in the next few years. Will you move to a city where there's a lot of Korean speakers or Japanese speakers? It would help if you visit either country someday to see whether you'd seriously live there if the opportunity arose. You could always land a try at the lowest level of the Korean language proficiency exam; I believe the exam is held in a few cities in the US each year.

As for not dumping the class because you like the teacher, this is college; you're a number on a card, not a human being. You take the courses you'll use in the future, not choose something easy and useless in the long run as a social networking event (unless that's what you really want instead of learning the course material).

I'm kinda curious what your spanish level is. Is it good enough to understand news shows on Univision (and no, those accent in the Univision newshows aren't mexican, sound more like Miamian or Venezuelan to me). You know you know mexican spanish damn well if you can understand the script of the Matando Cabos movie (hilarious movie BTW).

[Argo]

Once you memorize it you shouldnt really have to rememorize it. I can at the speed I think translate english words into korean letters if I wanted to because they are so ingrained. I'm only studying kana for fun right now, but with simple excersizes I'd say I'm already at 90% recognition and writing. As for Spanish, yeah i can follow univision/telemundo without any real problems at all. News is especially easy, when a native speaker starts doing the ricki ricardo speed spanish when there are very upset, or excited, that can be a bit harder. As for accent, I mean I had teachers from, ecuador, colombia, and spain, the textbooks we had were Mexican spanish, but our teachers pretty much taught us their form. So I really have a mixed accent, I guess it sounds Puerto Rican maybe, but without the grammatical changes like, tomado=tomao. I made sure not to emulate the Spain accent with all the lisping.

[RoxFontaine]

Jeeze, apparently I hit a nerve here. Never claimed to be elitist, and my interests go beyond history. I also said culture. Like age relations, societal structure, etiquette etc. And again I do like some J pop culture. I just prefaced my interests in the beginning to avoid being mischaracterized. J pop obsession can never be good, just like American pop obsession isnt good. Don't read too far into it.

Exactly, Argo. If you want to waste your time listening to people in your peer group babble about a bunch of bullshit, turn to the anime and manga approach to Japan. If you want to learn something a bit more relevant and make some contacts that can help you in your career, you will take your current approach and turn to elders for guidance.

Even with many of the students I've taught, and I do mean MANY, very few of them were fanatical about anime and manga. I can think of 3 offhand that were that way. One of them introduced me to Gundam and we actually played Card Builder together for a while. The other is into music and anime, so he talks to me about music more than anything. The 3rd is into Bleach and Disney characters.

Anime and manga are entirely relevant to Japanese culture. The degree of their relevance depends on what type of people are in your social circle. Only one of my friends is into anime. My wife reads manga, but only in the event that we go to an internet cafe. I never hear her even mention it otherwise.

[jindojim]

Argo, it def seems more like you WANT us to convince you to switch to Japanese than stick with Korean. Clearly, it's the language and culture that you're more interested in, since you're here talking about your progress in your self-study of Japanese. So, if that interest is strong enough to make you work hard at reaching fluency in it, just DO IT. You haven't taken Korean long enough where switching to Japanese is really going to be a problem. But, if the Korean language and culture are something you could see yourself continuing, by God, stick with Korean. In either case, pick one language and SERIOUSLY STICK WITH IT. Cultural nuances get picked up along the way to mastering a language; you can't separate them completely because certain usages have cultural ties depending on the situation. Thus, you'll gain cultural understanding no matter which language you pick.

[koku]

Yeah, it looks he wants himself to decide on Japanese and feel good about it to me.

[Televisions_Nick]

This guy is definitely interested in Japan because of the green tea and onsen.

[Argo]

Argo, it def seems more like you WANT us to convince you to switch to Japanese than stick with Korean. Clearly, it's the language and culture that you're more interested in, since you're here talking about your progress in your self-study of Japanese. So, if that interest is strong enough to make you work hard at reaching fluency in it, just DO IT. You haven't taken Korean long enough where switching to Japanese is really going to be a problem. But, if the Korean language and culture are something you could see yourself continuing, by God, stick with Korean. In either case, pick one language and SERIOUSLY STICK WITH IT.

I posted this at other forums too, so this is one informed side to guide me. The Kana study was for fun and to get a grasp on basic sentence constructs. Seriously, the kana isnt that hard at all (and Romaji looks like a serious waste of time to me, I'm fine skipping it). Again thanks for your imput. Oh and I will stick with Japanese if I pick it. Wanna know what I read for fun the other day at the bookstore? Colloquial Danish. Languages are my thing, they are what I like to learn or learn about. I'd seriously rather be reading an introductory Indonesian book than reading a novel or a Rolling Stone. I plan on learning at least 4 languages beside spanish and whatever Asian language I end up taking. May be overly ambitious, be hey, people have achieved far greater feats in the realm of languages, 15 and up is done more than youd suspect.

[ミュー]

This guy is definitely interested in Japan because of the green tea and onsen.
Japan: Come for the green tea and onsens, stay for the gaisens, 生 beer, and dead-end English teaching job!

[Televisions_Nick]

Japan: Come for the green tea and onsens, stay for the gaisens, 生 beer, and dead-end English teaching job!

Or quit, go back to the US, and go to grad school.

The choices are various and two!

[koku]

I'd go to grad school but my grades in College suck/will end up sucking.

[Chuckles]

生

I recognize that! Haha, Chinese class is paying off!

That said, as an actual Chinese student right now, Chinese isn't as bad as you think is is. The tones are difficult, but you get it with practice (like anything else.) And memorizing the characters? It's not easy, not even gonna pretend it is... but I'm able to recognize some without any guides, so it's not impossible. (For the record, my memory is shit.) Part of the reason I am able to do it, however, is the fact that I am genuinely motivated to learn it... I love it! Chinese is the only reason I wake up to go to class sometimes. Didn't even know it would be so much fun. What I'm trying to say is, pick something that you are excited to learn, lol. If you feel like you're just learning a language for no reason or that you're learning the wrong language, whatever the reason... you may want to rethink the entire situation. Not saying you can't learn one unless you want to, but it'll be harder.

If you wake up in the morning and can't wait to learn some more Japanese, then take it. You don't have to justify that choice in any way. Don't worry about usefulness, etc... If you enjoy doing it, do it, don't act like you have to have a good reason to do something that only affects you.

If you like modern Japanese culture (I say modern because that is the culture you would be immersing yourself in, as I'm sure you realise) and enjoy learning the language, then drop your Korean class and take Japanese... Korea isn't your girlfriend, it's not gonna be upset that you broke up with it (so you don't have to worry about hurting its feelings :p)

[koku]

Yeah, chuckles is right. Korea ISN'T your girlfriend -- she's fucking mine so back the fuck off.

[haterllnation]

Yeah, chuckles is right. Korea ISN'T your girlfriend -- she's fucking mine so back the fuck off.

Hey, someone's got to, amirite? :watson: I kid. Back to your scheduled programming.

BTW, I felt the opposite way Chuckles did about his language with French. However, since leaving it behind, I always enjoy looking at something in French and going "Hey, I understand that!" I probably should go and pick it up again (and probably start a vicious cycle).

[mikem]

I'm preaching to the choir here, but I have to say that Japanese university students are very guilty of only learning that which they have interest in. Don't you feel some of this, even among your own friends? Everyone joins stupid circles which leads to what I like to call "circle jerking" and the eventual spiral of many aimless, useless minds into fleeter jobs.


While I agree with you completely I fail to see how this is much different from every other college student in the world. :innocent:

It's kind of like when Americans go to liberal universities and become politically active. They just chose a cause and fight for it because it sounds right. Yet they don't really understand anything about society at large and how their social issue fits in.

Or even the stupid emo kids who are so pampered and cared for that they don't know how to do anything useful.

Everyone has their idiots.

[atomiton]

Hey, someone's got to, amirite? :watson: I kid. Back to your scheduled programming.

BTW, I felt the opposite way Chuckles did about his language with French. However, since leaving it behind, I always enjoy looking at something in French and going "Hey, I understand that!" I probably should go and pick it up again (and probably start a vicious cycle).

Try growing up in Western Canada. Six years of mandatory French... and no one to speak to even if you liked the language.

But at least I can read "Flocon de maïs" and know what it means now. :clap:

[haterllnation]

Try growing up in Western Canada. Six years of mandatory French... and no one to speak to even if you liked the language.

But at least I can read "Flocon de maïs" and know what it means now. :clap:

Hey, you never know when that might come in handy! :D

I actually understand that (to a smaller degree). French was the smallest group in both schools I took it in (Indiana and California). Of course, Spanish ruled both of these times (understandably so). The only people I had to chat with were in the class (which was small to begin with). Japanese was larger but not by much. If you told anyone you took French they give that WTF look and say "Why??":frypan: