When Japanese people call you 'gaijin'... in your home country.

[silentplummet]

When I lived in Japan I got used to being called 'gaijin' or the slightly more PC equivalent, 'gaikokujin'. I never liked it, I can't bring myself to accept it, but I figured there was no point complaining about it since when you look at it, that's really what I was.

I looked forward to the day when I came back to the USA, at which point, I imagined, no one would ever call me that again. Boy was I mistaken.

Last May I made a choice to move to Hawaii. To make a long story short I hear Japanese people here saying 'gaijin' this and 'gaijin' that all the time, when it seems patently clear to me that if anyone is a fucking gaijin around here, it's them. I've been called 'gaijin' to my face, in my home in my own country!! Something about the situation offends me on a deep level. Isn't there something terribly wrong here??

These are not people who just stepped off the airplane, either. Some of them have been living in Hawaii for 5, 10, or 20 years. I don't know about their nationality but I would assume that while many of them aren't naturalized, even if they were they would still continue to call their fellow countrymen 'gaijin'.

I want to write a short speech in Japanese. Something quick, polite, and to the point. Cram as much multicultural education as possible into 2, or maybe 3, brief sentences. Anyone have any thoughts? Am I a fool for thinking this is even worthwhile?

[Chris]

People are the same on certain levels everywhere you go, heh.

[six-eight-ten]

If you really had to say something, wouldn't a simple "You're the gaijin 'round these parts" be enough?

[Vic_Rattlehead]

Don't worry, just refer to them all as 'Tojo' like I do.

In a big British collonial accent "Liiiiisten here, Tojo!" Always a 'pow, right in the kisser' phrase for me! ;)

My girlfriend often uses 'Gaijin', but she persists in saying that its not intended for any "discriminating purpose". I suppose she could play it safe and just add the 'koku' in there to avoid unintentionally pissing some self-righteous can't take being refered to as the jonny foreigner by Tojo-tachi chap(s) . I personally couldn't give a shit what I'm refered to as to be quite honest.

The thing is though, I dont mind if they refer to me as Gaijin or Gaikokujin in my own country. I'll always be 'foreign' to them no matter what country I'm in. The same applies to them whenever I'm in Japan. The ones who do it to be a prick are the ones not worth having to fuss over anyway. They're the 'cho-tojoin'.

[Digital Masta]

If you really had to say something, wouldn't a simple "You're the gaijin 'round these parts" be enough?

That's exactly what I'd say...although depending on who it is I may put more asshole into it.

My girlfriend often uses 'Gaijin', but she persists in saying that its not intended for any "discriminating purpose". I suppose she could play it safe and just add the 'koku' in there to avoid unintentionally pissing some self-righteous can't take being refered to as the jonny foreigner by Tojo-tachi chap(s) . I personally couldn't give a shit what I'm refered to as to be quite honest.

I just find it a little ignorant to do, I mean if you are refering to someone who is from the country that you are currently in, develop enough sense to realize that you're the "foreign person" or "outsider" in their country.

I mean seriously, if I went to England and refered to them as foreigners, that's bound to piss off some people.

It's also rather arrogant if you ask me.

[mpz]

But you see, when Japanese people go abroad, they go abroad in their own little bubble which keeps the inside vs. outside frame of reference in order and perfect harmony. It makes perfect (twisted) sense to refer to anybody outside your (ethnic) group by the gaijin moniker regardless of whether you are in somebody else's country or not.

You should take solace in the fact that most people don't do it on purpose but subconsciously. ;-)

[Digital Masta]

It's still ignorant. I mean you wouldn't accept that from someone else but it's okay to let the Japanese go? I mean I'm not going to get all crazy angry about it but I'd say something about it if I was addressed that way.

I think it also may bother people when you know how the japanese can be and it's one thing when you're in Japan and you get it but if I'm in New York City and a Japanese person calls me a gaijin I'm kind of like "Oh hell no".

[bakagaijin]

Remember, most Japanese don't consider Hawaii to be a part of the US, though I've heard gaijin thrown around plenty in San Francisco and Los Angeles.

[mpz]

For serious mindfuck, try talking about the Japanese people in Japan with your Japanese speaking (non-native) buddies, using the word gaijin.

See how long it takes for people to realize you're talking about them and not yourself.

[japanat]

The gaijin crap got to me for a long time, especially when I was Stateside, until I realized that it doesn't so much mean 'foreigner' nowadays as simply 'non-Japanese ethnic'.

That doesn't mean it doesn't get to me some days, but... I have been known to tell Joe-Oyaji walking on the street in front of my house that in this neighborhood, 'they' are the gaijin.

[Beowulf]

When they call you "Gaijin" just stare at them unblinkingly and scream "RAPE OF NANKING!!!" at them until they go away. Problem solved.

[hanacker]

Remember, most Japanese don't consider Hawaii to be a part of the US...

They sure as hell don't consider it part of Japan. Guam, on the other hand, might as well be...

[EIJI]

When you have been in Japan too long, that concept invades your brain......
you see a gaijin get on the train and think "Wow, it's a gaijin!"
http://web2.airmail.net/will/japan2long.html

[MNJetter]

I dunno, it kind of makes sense to me. Japanese people consider themselves to be Japanese people, no matter what country they're in. So people not in that particular "uchi" circle are outsiders....literally gaijin. People who call foreigners gaijin no matter what country they're in probably expect to be considered outsiders anyplace outside of Japan. It's not so much that they think you don't belong in the place you live in, as they still consider you outside of the group of people that they consider themselves a part of, and they expect that you don't consider them part of your group either. The clique mentality is not a concept unique to the Japanese psyche, or even to ethnocentric thinking in general.

[andrewt]

hence you can expect to hear gaijin in your own country, yet probably not gaikokujin i'd assume?
least i've not heard gaikokujin used in this sense in the US.....

[Masa the Masta]

I'm not Japanese, I'm a person.

For the completely Japanese-ignorant, would that be, "Boku wa gaijin ja nai. Boku wa hito da"?

[mpz]

When you have been in Japan too long, that concept invades your brain......
you see a gaijin get on the train and think "Wow, it's a gaijin!"
http://web2.airmail.net/will/japan2long.html
The last time I went to Japan I did this (said it out loud, in Japanese) all the time. Endless source of fun :-)

[PopCulturePooka]

I'm pretty sure some years ago I saw a pic online of a 'No Foreigners Allowed' sign.

On a Japanese owned Hostess club...

IN LONDON

[Digital Masta]

I'm pretty sure some years ago I saw a pic online of a 'No Foreigners Allowed' sign.

On a Japanese owned Hostess club...

IN LONDON

If I was British I would've walked right in and been like "What? I'm not a foreigner".

[kitsunepixie]

I've heard Japanese people do that in the States many times. They do it with a more impunity than someone here would remark in public, "Gee, there sure are a lot of insert demographic of choice," since most non-Japanese can't understand what they're saying. Japanese certainly aren't alone in doing this, though. I've heard many English speakers in Japan go on tirades about how annoyed they are with Japanese people in public, with the assumption that the Japanese around them can't understand.

When I went to a CIR meeting in Chiba a few years ago, I was with about 30 other CIRs at a train station, when we overheard a nearby gaggle of junior high girls comment, "There sure are a lot of gaijin here." Of all gaijin to comment about...they had to pick the ones who were brought to Japan because we speak Japanese! :duh: Some of my fellow CIRs were getting a little steamed...I thought that it was actually pretty funny, so I walked up behind the girls and said in Japanese, "Boy, there sure are a lot Japanese schoolgirls around here right now...I wonder if there will be any room on train for all of us gaijin." They turned around and gaped in disbelief, and we playfully scolded them to be careful about comments that they make about strangers to their faces. We actually made some new little friends on that train ride, heh.

[MNJetter]

That reminds me of the training seminar in Kyoto that I went to a couple months ago. Me and another girl and a couple guys from the seminar were standing on a train, and there were a couple high school girls standing near us. The whole time we were on the train together, they were debating completely freely about which one of the guys in my group was more handsome than the other. After a few stops, they got off the train. With them standing there just outside the doors, my friends and I all just switched to Japanese and continued conversing as we had been before in English. I still wish I had had a camera with me, because the looks on the faces of those high school girls as the train doors shut between them and us was absolutely priceless.

I think they learned a good lesson. ;)

[Pierrot le Fou]

Get a job working in some place where you need to call customers' names. When one of these folks' name has to be called, or greeted, or anything, you can give them a big smile and a nice 'gaijin-san' as their title. You can then ask them if they can eat American rice, if they can use American forks, and if they can read/write the alphabet (cursive too?! capital letters?!).

When you offend them, point out that there's nothing they can do, because of their diminutive stature and tiny dangly/jubbly bits.

[kitsunepixie]

Get a job working in some place where you need to call customers' names. When one of these folks' name has to be called, or greeted, or anything, you can give them a big smile and a nice 'gaijin-san' as their title. You can then ask them if they can eat American rice, if they can use American forks, and if they can read/write the alphabet (cursive too?! capital letters?!).

When you offend them, point out that there's nothing they can do, because of their diminutive stature and tiny dangly/jubbly bits.

That works, too. It reminds me of when Tom Green went to Japan and went around waking up salarymen in a capsule hotel to offer them forks.

[koku]

But you see, when Japanese people go abroad, they go abroad in their own little bubble which keeps the inside vs. outside frame of reference in order and perfect harmony. It makes perfect (twisted) sense to refer to anybody outside your (ethnic) group by the gaijin moniker regardless of whether you are in somebody else's country or not.

You should take solace in the fact that most people don't do it on purpose but subconsciously. ;-)

Yup. I wanted to basically write the same thing. To a Japanese person, the word 'gaijin' is simply connected with anyone who isn't Japanese. That's just the mentality. I also think that kind of thinking process is what makes Japanese often times suck @ making new friends and branching out. Tight little bubble, Itty bitty exit. :karate:

[Eddie Echoplex]

But you see, when Japanese people go abroad, they go abroad in their own little bubble which keeps the inside vs. outside frame of reference in order and perfect harmony. It makes perfect (twisted) sense to refer to anybody outside your (ethnic) group by the gaijin moniker regardless of whether you are in somebody else's country or not.

You should take solace in the fact that most people don't do it on purpose but subconsciously. ;-)

Ah, so that's why there's so little japanese tourists in Mexico (we have a habit of breaking bubbles, and replace them with our own ;D ).

[atomiton]

The word "gaijin" may "literally" mean foreigner... but like many words in English, they don't retain they meaning in common usage.

Words such as "negro" come to mind. Saying, matter of factly, there are a lot of "negros" in the United States will likely make many Americans cringe, even if it's meant strictly factually in referring to skin color.

(This is not starting a thread about discrimination... it's merely an example)

The word "gay" has also changed meaning. The Flintstones theme song comes to mind.

And how about "alien"

Did you see that documentary about aliens in California?

Most people will think you're talking about "extra-terrestrials" (the more technically correct term) rather than legal/illegal aliens (or "foreigners") from Mexico.

Language evolves and changes.
gaijin != foreigner.
gaijin == non-japanese.

[atomiton]

Ah, so that's why there's so little japanese tourists in Mexico (we have a habit of breaking bubbles, and replace them with our own ;D ).

Actually it probably has more to do with the "perception" that Mexico is 3rd world to Japanese and seems like an unsafe place to visit.

[SlickWilly440]

^
Isn't Mexico a little bit of first, second, and third world depending on the area?

[koku]

Could be, but "perceptions" are not always right or fair. :) I have met many Japanese people who sincerely believe most Americans have a gun in their home.

[Beowulf]

Could be, but "perceptions" are not always right or fair. I have met many Japanese people who sincerely believe most Americans have a gun in their home.
I have 3, more if you count airsofts :D

[Eddie Echoplex]

Actually it probably has more to do with the "perception" that Mexico is 3rd world to Japanese and seems like an unsafe place to visit.

So is Thailand and the Philipines (as far as I'm concerned), even though they're closer.

Isn't Mexico a little bit of first, second, and third world depending on the area?.

Yes, and the first world areas are, commonly, the tourist areas (just take a look at Cancun).

[Vic_Rattlehead]

^
Isn't Mexico a little bit of first, second, and third world depending on the area?

Second World? Didn't know that Mexico was ever under the Soviet sphere of influence, nor did I know that a particular part of Mexico was or is communist. The 'second world' is dead, buddy. ;)

Unless the definition of 'second world' has changed, and I have missed the point, I will apologise to you for my prick-like, yet heartfelt, innocent post. :) :P

[koku]

"Well if first world means that and third world means this...I can probably figure out what-

;)

[Eddie Echoplex]

"Well if first world means that and third world means this...I can probably figure out what-

;)

It's kinda like the underpants gnomes plans:

1.- Collect Underpants
2.- ???
3.- Profit!

[MNJetter]

The word "gaijin" may "literally" mean foreigner... but like many words in English, they don't retain they meaning in common usage.

Words such as "negro" come to mind. Saying, matter of factly, there are a lot of "negros" in the United States will likely make many Americans cringe, even if it's meant strictly factually in referring to skin color.
I disagree. "gaijin" might be used to mean "foreigner," but that is not its literal meaning. Its literal meaning is "outsider," which just goes to strengthen the whole idea that to the Japanese folks saying it outside their home country, it means something other than simply someone who doesn't belong in whatever country they're talking about, or their own country. It's not a term related to a nationalistic attitude, but rather to an ethnocentric one.

And there's a huge difference between using "gaijin" and using "negro." Not to mention the first one doesn't even refer to skin color (they'll refer to Chinese and other East Asians as outsiders as readily as white people). The second one hasn't been used to specifically describe skin color since the civil rights movement. It is a loaded term that a lot of people find offensive. Gaijin, on the other hand, could be a loaded term, but I know way more foreigners who aren't offended by it than those who are. Heck, I know way more Japanese people who are afraid that it will offend foreigners than I do foreigners who are offended by it. It's much more analogous to the ways that a lot of ethnic Jews see themselves as opposed to the rest of the world. You can join the Jewish faith if you want, but the only way to truly become a Jew in the ethnic, historical, national sense of the word is to have been born into it. Nothing against Gentiles (i.e., gaijin). It's just the way the cosmic dice were rolled.

[Pierrot le Fou]

I despise being called gaijin, but at this point I just bite my tongue unless it's a service person referring to me as 'gaijin-san' rather than 'okyaku-sama'. That's the only time I really let the person know where to shove their lack of manners.

I still don't like it though.

[Hikoku-Y]

When I lived in Japan I got used to being called 'gaijin' or the slightly more PC equivalent, 'gaikokujin'. I never liked it, I can't bring myself to accept it, but I figured there was no point complaining about it since when you look at it, that's really what I was.

I looked forward to the day when I came back to the USA, at which point, I imagined, no one would ever call me that again. Boy was I mistaken.

Last May I made a choice to move to Hawaii. To make a long story short I hear Japanese people here saying 'gaijin' this and 'gaijin' that all the time, when it seems patently clear to me that if anyone is a fucking gaijin around here, it's them. I've been called 'gaijin' to my face, in my home in my own country!! Something about the situation offends me on a deep level. Isn't there something terribly wrong here??

These are not people who just stepped off the airplane, either. Some of them have been living in Hawaii for 5, 10, or 20 years. I don't know about their nationality but I would assume that while many of them aren't naturalized, even if they were they would still continue to call their fellow countrymen 'gaijin'.

I want to write a short speech in Japanese. Something quick, polite, and to the point. Cram as much multicultural education as possible into 2, or maybe 3, brief sentences. Anyone have any thoughts? Am I a fool for thinking this is even worthwhile?

There's always something that makes me uncomfortable when white Americans complain about being termed "foreigners" or treated unfairly in other countries. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, and I (a white, American man) have been called 外人 many times in Japan, including an incident where, after a business meeting, the クライアント会社の部長 said 「外人さんがいて大変だった」。I've been through the old routine, having people refuse to speak Japanese with me even when my Japanese was far better than their English, and a drunken salaryman once screamed at me and kicked me in the ankle as we passed by on the street—I was talking to a friend and didn't even notice him until he was right next to me.

But the fact of the matter is that black Americans, Native Americans, Latino-Americans, and Asian-Americans face far more pernicious and devaluing discrimination all throughout their home country. As a white (or white-looking) American, your claim to being "American" is never questioned; the same can't be said for people of any other race. I've made a conscious choice that living in Japan is worth the cost of the discrimination. But people of color who live in America aren't afforded that luxury of choice. While I don't deny that anti-foreigner discrimination is a problem for us white people who want to live in Japan—or perhaps even Hawaii—I don't think it deserves complaint when we, as Americans, have a far more serious problem staring us in the face.

I'm not trying to guilt you into remorse or anything, but I just want to provide what I see as a broader perspective. I'm also not saying you shouldn't react when people call you a 外人, because I think growing up in America provides us with a fairly robust and rich understanding of how prejudice can damage a society, and that understanding can benefit Japanese as well. But your message is rife with indignation, which I think would be better directed elsewhere.

Just FYI, I'm assuming that you're white because I looked at your photo gallery a while back (nice pictures, BTW). I apologize if I'm mistaken.

[SlickWilly440]

Originally Posted by SlickWilly440
^
Isn't Mexico a little bit of first, second, and third world depending on the area?

Second World? Didn't know that Mexico was ever under the Soviet sphere of influence, nor did I know that a particular part of Mexico was or is communist. The 'second world' is dead, buddy. ;)

Unless the definition of 'second world' has changed, and I have missed the point, I will apologise to you for my prick-like, yet heartfelt, innocent post. :) :P

I really didn't know what "Second World" ment when I posted that statement. I generally assumed "Second World" was some sort of condition between a scale of Best and Worst. 1st World being the best, 3rd being the worst, and 2nd being somewhere in between.

[Hikoku-Y]

And regarding a few sentences you could say to a Japanese who calls you 外人. I generally prefer to be fairly polite, but I suppose that's a matter of choice.

すみませんが、「外人」ってどういう意味持つでしょうか。私の自分らしさは「外人」っていうことに基づいて いないんですよ。アイデンティティーって、簡単に「外人」とか「日本人」とか「アメリカ人」という言葉だけ でもって定義できるわけないんですよ。それに、この島はアメリカ合衆国のハワイ州だし、私はアメリカ人です から、誰が外人なのかというと、決して私ではありません。

My Japanese could use plenty of work and I encourage corrections and suggestions.

I feel like your other choice is to go with something hyper formal, full of 〜ざるを得ない、〜故に、〜というものの、〜かねない、etc., to show them you know some serious Japanese. But I think that's more likely to leave you looking pretentious and douchey than it is to be effective.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Or a more direct:
日本で俺を外人と呼んだら構わないかもしれんけど、アメリカでは誰かを外人と呼ぶであれば、お前のことにな る。

[Urameshi YuSooKey]

Could be, but "perceptions" are not always right or fair. :) I have met many Japanese people who sincerely believe most Americans have a gun in their home.
I think it's safe to assume that a majority of Americans do have a gun in their home. I have one. Haven't had to use it, but it's there. :innocent:

I suppose if a Japanese-American called me gaijin, I would be ticked off because it's a grouping term and takes away from my individuality, which is generally viewed as more important in Western cultures.

[Masa the Masta]

When in doubt, I'd just use what Vic_Rattlehead showed me once.

"Ride me like seabiscuit." Whatever it is in Japanese.

[Hikoku-Y]

When in doubt, I'd just use what Vic_Rattlehead showed me once.

"Ride me like seabiscuit." Whatever it is in Japanese.

Of course this makes no sense when translated, but I think it would be like this:

俺がシービスケットかのように乗れ！

[koku]

And regarding a few sentences you could say to a Japanese who calls you 外人. I generally prefer to be fairly polite, but I suppose that's a matter of choice.

すみませんが、「外人」ってどういう意味持つでしょうか。私の自分らしさは「外人」っていうことに基づいて いないんですよ。アイデンティティーって、簡単に「外人」とか「日本人」とか「アメリカ人」という言葉だけ でもって定義できるわけないんですよ。それに、この島はアメリカ合衆国のハワイ州だし、私はアメリカ人です から、誰が外人なのかというと、決して私ではありません。

My Japanese could use plenty of work and I encourage corrections and suggestions.

I feel like your other choice is to go with something hyper formal, full of 〜ざるを得ない、〜故に、〜というものの、〜かねない、etc., to show them you know some serious Japanese. But I think that's more likely to leave you looking pretentious and douchey than it is to be effective.

Wow what you wrote is a mouthfull. :knockout:

I like a more direct route too.
今回は外人は。。。*POINT AND LAUGH!*お前だろう！

Actually had a similar conversation with a friend and JPN friend laughed about it.

Good luck to you Hikoku. You seem to know A LOT of Japanese.　　I think people like that at least help elevate some stereotypes about non-Japanese people in Japan.

[Hikoku-Y]

Wow what you wrote is a mouthfull. :knockout:

I like a more direct route too.
今回は外人は。。。*POINT AND LAUGH!*お前だろう！

Actually had a similar conversation with a friend and JPN friend laughed about it.

Good luck to you Hikoku. You seem to know A LOT of Japanese.　　I think people like that at least help elevate some stereotypes about non-Japanese people in Japan.

Thanks for the compliment, but I've been studying Japanese for a long time and I'm not nearly as good as I should be.

If you go this route, I suggest: 外人ってオメエのことじゃねえか！

[ミュー]

I am the quintessential Uncle Tom. When foreigners are around, I usually refer to them (and myself) as 外人さん. Instead of getting irritated and giving speeches to everyone, I just go along with it and turn it into a big joke. Japanese friends tend to get a big kick out of it.

I haven't seen any Japanese people here in LA yet, but if someone calls me gaijin then they will get a 帰国しなよ、外人さん. However, it is very aggravating to me that Chinese and Korean guys will stare at me with my girlfriend like I stole their wemunz. Because, you know, it's yellow fever unless your ancestors are from the same region.

[silentplummet]

Get a job working in some place where you need to call customers' names. When one of these folks' name has to be called, or greeted, or anything, you can give them a big smile and a nice 'gaijin-san' as their title. You can then ask them if they can eat American rice, if they can use American forks, and if they can read/write the alphabet (cursive too?! capital letters?!).

When you offend them, point out that there's nothing they can do, because of their diminutive stature and tiny dangly/jubbly bits.

It seems that we really think alike. Maybe I could live to the end of my days marinating in the delicious irony of such an arrangement.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Alternatively, you can walk up to each one and ask for their autograph, chanting "Ichiro! Ichiro!"

When they look baffled, get the nearest whities and say to them, "It's Ichiro! Do you think he can speak English?! Do you think he can use a fork?! Do you think that he can eat beef?!"

Proceed with REALLY broken Japanese and say, "Ichiro-kun! Watashi-wa Yakyuu no FAN desu! Sign shite kudasai! Fork tsukaimasuka? America wa suki desu ka?! SUGOI!"

When they walk away in disgust, clean up the Japanese and say, "Yappari, amerika ni kuru gaijin ha eigo shaberenai na. Sonna aho na nihon jin iran wa." under your breath.

If they look back, yell "Nihon ni modore! America de ha, omae no sabetsu iran!"

Then kick 'em in the jubblies for good measure.

[japanat]

The only problem is that your broken Japanese isn't broken enough...

Ichiro-sama! Washi-wo be-subo-ru fan desu!(rising tone) Sign pu-reeeeze! Fork tsukaumashika? Yakuza shiton?


One time I was at a small community center waiting for a juku class to start when a kid walked by the front door, pointed at me, and pretty much yelled "Gaijin da!". He was ALONE.

So I pointed back and yelled "Nihonjin da!" His eyes got really big, he ran away, and my Japanese manager, who happened to be with me at the time, fell on the floor laughing.

[Ichisan]

Perhaps this means the Japanese have a problem shifting their perspective? Are there any other things that would indicate the inability to see someone else's point of view?

If it bugs you, perhaps the best way would be to refer to Japanese as gaijin, staying true to one's own perspective in the way that they do. Perhaps that would be completely understood and not cause offense at all? Has anyone tried it?

[stsparky]

I just look at the culprit as if he is a misanthrope. Once in a while, I hear it in the Japanese market here. But as I usually have the wife, her friend, my daughter and the friend's daughter; and often the talento in tow, I don't see the point in being more upset than a giving a stern look.

[atomiton]

The only problem is that your broken Japanese isn't broken enough...

Ichiro-sama! Washi-wo be-subo-ru fan desu!(rising tone) Sign pu-reeeeze! Fork tsukaumashika? Yakuza shiton?


One time I was at a small community center waiting for a juku class to start when a kid walked by the front door, pointed at me, and pretty much yelled "Gaijin da!". He was ALONE.

So I pointed back and yelled "Nihonjin da!" His eyes got really big, he ran away, and my Japanese manager, who happened to be with me at the time, fell on the floor laughing.
You should've said "Chuugokujin da!"

[kitsunepixie]

But the fact of the matter is that black Americans, Native Americans, Latino-Americans, and Asian-Americans face far more pernicious and devaluing discrimination all throughout their home country. As a white (or white-looking) American, your claim to being "American" is never questioned; the same can't be said for people of any other race. I've made a conscious choice that living in Japan is worth the cost of the discrimination. But people of color who live in America aren't afforded that luxury of choice. While I don't deny that anti-foreigner discrimination is a problem for us white people who want to live in Japan—or perhaps even Hawaii—I don't think it deserves complaint when we, as Americans, have a far more serious problem staring us in the face.

So true. My friend in Chicago who is of Korean and Caucasian descent was working at a pet store, and had an elderly patron refuse her help by saying to her, "I want someone who <i>can speak English</i>." She was livid. This girl is related to the President of the Confederacy, Jefferson Davis, irony of ironies.

[Eddie Echoplex]

The only problem is that your broken Japanese isn't broken enough...

Ichiro-sama! Washi-wo be-subo-ru fan desu!(rising tone) Sign pu-reeeeze! Fork tsukaumashika? Yakuza shiton?


One time I was at a small community center waiting for a juku class to start when a kid walked by the front door, pointed at me, and pretty much yelled "Gaijin da!". He was ALONE.

So I pointed back and yelled "Nihonjin da!" His eyes got really big, he ran away, and my Japanese manager, who happened to be with me at the time, fell on the floor laughing.

Awesome.

[Oosutorariajin]

normally when I go to onsen or something that the japanese seem to find particularly japanese only safe, I get kids all excited saying "Gaijin-san!!" I have always found it nice that they are polite enough to say san after.

I have no problem what so ever with being called gaijin at any point. It is simply an indication of their social system and way of thinking.

[Fred]

I was in Australia once with some Japanese co-workers. We were walking around Cairns one night and they spotted some Japanese women. The women asked them what they were doing with a Gaijin in that Mini Mouse-esq, Princess-voice so many Japanese women affect. This initiated an intense internal debate. On the one hand, they were being stupid, oblivious twats and thus deserving of physical, mental, and emotional abuse. On the other hand, my co-workers were trying to get laid and I did not want to ruin their chances. In the end, I chose to walk away.

What would you have done?

[SlickWilly440]

^
Well did they end up getting laid, or was your walking away all in vain?

[Fred]

They struck out

[koku]

If I understood Japanese, I would have just said they were friends... Like the wise poster above said:

I have no problem what so ever with being called gaijin at any point. It is simply an indication of their social system and way of thinking.

I've had host families who took well care of me use the word. There's a wide difference between a Japanese person who just feels he/she is separate from the world because of his/her race, and a Japanese person who is using the word out of hate. And please don't even bring up other racial slurs and try to compare them 'cuz that's just going to get ridiculous.

[Ichisan]

Am I right in thinking the word 'gaijin' does not apply to other Asians such as Chinese or Koreans, or are they included in the 'gaijin' category too?

[Kai]

I believe the term most used for other Asians is Gaikokujin.

I know when I met the grandmother of my host family, she was using the word Gaijin quite a few times in her sentances. She was the only family member that used the word in front of me. My Japanese wasn't good enough to understand much of the rest of what she was saying. She was still very nice to me so I knew she wasn't saying it to be rude. I just thought it was kind of generation thing.

[koku]

umm, other Asians getting the longer version is def. not true or consistent enough to say that. Most of the time for other asians, they'll just say Chuugokujin or Kankokujin (Chinese or Korean).

[Kai]

umm, other Asians getting the longer version is def. not true or consistent enough to say that. Most of the time for other asians, they'll just say Chuugokujin or Kankokujin (Chinese or Korean).

My bad then, thanks for clarifying.

[atomiton]

Makes sense. They can generally tell chinese/koreans/japanese/vietnamese apart because they know more about them, such as make-up, hair styles or clothing usually worn.

Whereas, they couldn't tell a swede from a slovakian... as "all white people look the same"

So, if you're white, you get the generic "gaijin" if you're black you get kokujin because of a lack of familiarity.

It's similar to the western world. In general, people were called Oriental.... because they were from the Orient.

Now, of course, people's familiarity with Asia is bigger as there are simply more of them in Western Countries, so that term "can" be offensive to some.

However, I don't believe it was ever meant to be.

Is Oriental is the west's "gaijin?"

[MNJetter]

Gaijin doesn't mean "white guy." It literally means "outsider," and colloquially is used to mean "foreigner" (which, to the Japanese mind, means ethnically non-Japanese).

So no, Oriental is not the west's "gaijin." Most Western countries don't even have a blanket term (anymore) to describe anyone not genetically tied to their own nation.

[Masa the Masta]

Man, Mexicans are kind of the same way.

You're either a paisa (one of us), a gringo (wild guess as to that), a chino (and that), or a negro (and that).

[koku]

Makes sense. They can generally tell chinese/koreans/japanese/vietnamese apart because they know more about them, such as make-up, hair styles or clothing usually worn.

Whereas, they couldn't tell a swede from a slovakian... as "all white people look the same"


I personally don't think it has anything to do with that, but more of the fact that they're asian (but def. not Japanese like us).

Gaijin is unfamiliar. Different. Non-asian-esque. :) At least that's the feeing behind it.

[ミュー]

I personally don't think it has anything to do with that, but more of the fact that they're asian (but def. not Japanese like us).

Gaijin is unfamiliar. Different. Non-asian-esque. :) At least that's the feeing behind it.
I think you're a little misled. Racist Japanese people hate other Asians a LOT more than they do Westerners. The "koku" may be added politeness, except ro when some arse says it like they would rather say gaijin but you expect some koku lovin >_>

[NBL]

What would you have done?

Gotten out of that mudhole. Seriously, they might be filthy cane toads, but Brisvegas (brisbane) is the Australian capital you're least likely to die in and have the most fun in. Cairns is nearly as bad as.. well, Canberra. If anyone ever offers you a free trip to Canberra, ask if you can have your testicles wired to a car battery instead.

Uh, yes. Sorry, carry on. Just to maintain thread relevancy - last time I took my neice to Seaworld, every few sentences contained "Gaijin". The place is maybe 60% australians, 40% tourists, mostly Asian (Sorry, don't know japanese, and can't recognise them from others.) but just goes to show.

[koku]

I think you're a little misled. Racist Japanese people hate other Asians a LOT more than they do Westerners. The "koku" may be added politeness, except ro when some arse says it like they would rather say gaijin but you expect some koku lovin >_>

Well, i'll def. agree they may hate other asians a lot more, but I think they consider them less 'gaijin' than they consider you and me, which is why they clal them by their race, I believe. :wonder:

what do you think of that?

[atomiton]

That's because they ARE less gaijin. There is a lot more in common between other asian nations and Japan than America (obviously)

[MNJetter]

I have never seen this different treatment of Asians versus the rest of the world. From my experience, if a Japanese person habitually calls anybody gaijin, they call everybody gaijin. If they call some people Chinese or Korean, they tend to call the others by at least racial terms if they don't know what country they're from, and country names if they do.

Incidentally, I noticed that people who use "gaijin" tend to call themselves "Nihonjin," and people who use "gaikokujin" usually default to "Nipponjin," but that's more a matter of politeness levels versus worldview.

[jindojim]

"Hate" other Asians isn't the right word. It's more a Japan-is-much-better-because-we're-the-center-of-this-hemisphere-so-admit-your-inferiority-and-let-us-enlighten-you-so-that-you-wish-you-were-Japanese sort of attitude. Although this is sort of getting challenged by the fact that the Chinese economy is booming.

When dealing with Westerners though, it's more like a...you-don't-look-anything-like-us-so-you-fascinate-us-and-frighten-us-a-little-but-we-can-still-be-friends-if-you-like-Japan-but-not-best-friends sort of attitude.

[koku]

Lies. I've made plenty of Japanese friends who literally would become close on a best friend level had I spent longer time there.　　：P

But yeah, I see where you're going with it. We gotta remember not to be too harsh, though.

That's because they ARE less gaijin. There is a lot more in common between other asian nations and Japan than America (obviously)

Hmm........ I'm not so sure how true this holds. Aren't Chinese culture and Japanese culture almost polar opposites in some cases? I think it's just the assumption that they're asian and look asian/Japanese, they're 'less gaijin.' But I guess there are many similarities (like Korea's big on formalities too, right?). I don't know. :)

[Ichisan]

I asked this before but I guess I was too vague. What I want to know is, what if you're talking Japanese and you use 'gaijin' in the context of a conversation about your own country, and you used it to mean non-member-of-your-country?

For example you might say "You can't tell who's English and who's gaijin in London because there are so many gaijin."

That way you'd be thinking and expressing yourself in the same way a Japanese would (?) but adjusted to your own perspective. Would this be understood and not thought strange by a Japanese?

[silentplummet]

I asked this before but I guess I was too vague. What I want to know is, what if you're talking Japanese and you use 'gaijin' in the context of a conversation about your own country, and you used it to mean non-member-of-your-country?

It depends on who is listening to you speak. Any non-Japanese person will understand perfectly what you are trying to say, whereas every Japanese person (barring uniquely culturally sensitive individuals, the likes of whom I still have not met) will be confused.

"Huh? Are? But everyone here is gaijin."

The problem you run into is that Japanese do not view their language as just another language. In their minds, it is their language and it belongs entirely and completely to them. Japan is the zero, the reference point for all relative terms in the language, which is to say there are really no relative terms in the language. Gaijin means everyone who isn't Japanese. Foreign means anything that is not Japanese.

It's a terribly narrow-minded and dangerous worldview, and it only exists so long as the rest of the world continues to forgive it.

The Japanese language is just an extension of being Japanese. It's the same thing with Japanese food and chopsticks and stuff. That's why they pretend to be so god damned surprised when you can eat soba, even though it's just noodles like everyone else in the world eats.

[MNJetter]

I dunno, I use "gaikokujin" sometimes when conversing about stuff relative to America, and people tend to know what I'm talking about. It all depends on whether or not the context clear. I mean, if I was back in America and someone from Germany started talking about foreigners in English, I would need pretty clear context to realize that they weren't talking about foreigners in relation to the country we were currently in.

[ミュー]

I want someone to put facts behind the "Japanese relate more easily to other Asians than other foreigners" statement. I know there's a physical similarity, but centuries of mutual hate and warring between Japan and basically everybody else makes me believe that Japanese don't feel much 'special connection' with other Asians.

Also, what are the standards of 'relation'? I'm thinking in terms of a Japanese person's willingness to interact with said group of foreigners. Maybe thought-process or moral-wise, there is more common ground with other Asians. I think others' statements on Japanese leaning toward other Asians could be influenced by the fact that there aren't so many non-Asian foreigners who can speak with them in Japanese. I know many on this forum can speak at a proficient level (including myself), but we are a minority in a country full of businessmen and English teachers who could care less about the language.