Asian invation

[ArkAngel]

Of course you all know about this. I just wanted to let off some steam. I mean Japan is great but it's gone a little too far. I mean I see people at my school dressed up like anime characters for no reason. I see chinese girls renounce their heritage and get totally assimilated by the pop fads of japan. And all this manga and anime being the new fad. I have nothing against the two. I liked both way before they were in. But it's just pissing me off when there's an anime club filled with all the little boys and girls that have no social contact. Maybe it's the jock side of me talking but When the highlight of your day is discussing who's the cooler samurai from samurai champloo....well it's pathetic. Me I like learning never endulging unless it's with woman.?


side note: I love women, they're gods gift to us men.

[Saitou Hajime]

Whining about what other people like an do with their time revolving around anime is no better than what they are doing, in all honesty. How does it affect you that they have anime clubs?

[megaversal]

I see chinese girls renounce their heritage and get totally assimilated by the pop fads of japan.

Not at all like Japanese girls getting sucked into American/European fads, right? :p

But it's just pissing me off when there's an anime club filled with all the little boys and girls that have no social contact.

"No social contact" -- except for their anime club, where they have tons of social contact??

I don't understand where you're coming from. I'm not a big anime fan, but it doesn't bother me much that people who don't understand anything about Japanese culture are latching on to this stuff because at least they're being exposed to a foreign culture. It's nice to know something like anime might be promoting greater cross-cultural acceptance. We'll have to see how these anime fans are in 20 years.

[NERD]

So basically you are uncomfortable of seeing more anime dorks? I felt the same way when video games became more popular.

If you start hating on anime/manga, then you won't have to hate on other anime dorks.

[Henjin]

People have the right to do what they want w/ their time. *shrug*

[Uska]

lol and discussing who the cooler samurai of samurai champloo is pathetic as opposed to......what? Two guys talking about what football team is better? Or what car drives faster? Or what president was better than George W. Bush? Whatever floats your discussion boat then discuss it with ppl that equally floats their boat.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Okay, I'm going to go against the current here (gee, that's a shocker, eh?) and say that I understand what the OP is trying to point out.

Anime is not about 'increasing cross-cultural understanding.'

Anime clubs are not about 'social contact.'

From what I've seen from my brushes with folks who get in way too deep with the anime nonsense is a creepy little society of people who take the normal rules of social interaction and flip them on their head, and spend the rest of their time convincing themselves that this is not only acceptable, but normal.

These are people who are obsessive about one hobby to the exclusion of all else. That's not healthy. These are people who deny their own identity in favour of living vicariously through cartoons. These are people who create an image of a society so strong that when confronted with the real thing they don't cope too well. These are people who find it as acceptable to whack off to cartoons as it is to whack off to 'normal' porn.

And these are people who support each other in those ventures.

Now I like the occassional cartoon. There's nothing wrong with that. It's called an 'interest.' I liked cartoons (American and otherwise) through High School and college. And there are plenty of people like me who grew up on Transformers, and Animaniacs, and Batman the Animated Series, and then discovered an entire different set of cartoons from Japan to explore as well, and found a few we liked, and such was such. There are people who liked them even more than me, and one could say that their hobby was watching cartoons. That too I didn't mind. These were the folks who would haul their asses out of bed at 6am on a Saturday to watch the entire Saturday morning cartoon lineup. I could never be bothered.

Then there are the anime freaks. They are so goddamned obsessed that rather than recognize that obsession is unhealthy, they try to convince each other that they are MORE obsessed than the other folks in the same boat. This is NOT healthy. When you look at things on here like the thread about what anime folks have seen, people seem to be competing to make their list as long as possible and show that they're a bigger fan. That's disturbing. That is not healthy.

Having contact with people who not only affirm that behaviour, but who also engage in it themselves to make them think it's the norm is even worse.

There is nothing wrong with watching anime. Or with playing video games. Or with being interested in Japan. But because of obsessive self-declared 'otaku' who are fanatic about the damned stuff, people who have a casual passing interest are grouped with them a little too quickly, because everyone and their mother knows a f'ing anime freak. And that's disturbing.

So the OP is basically saying, "Hey folks, get your hobbies in check. They aren't supposed to change your identity to the point where you lose any semblance of normal social mores."

And he's right.

[Arkan]

Not at all like Japanese girls getting sucked into American/European fads, right? :p



"No social contact" -- except for their anime club, where they have tons of social contact??

I don't understand where you're coming from. I'm not a big anime fan, but it doesn't bother me much that people who don't understand anything about Japanese culture are latching on to this stuff because at least they're being exposed to a foreign culture. It's nice to know something like anime might be promoting greater cross-cultural acceptance. We'll have to see how these anime fans are in 20 years.

Please read my post carefully. I cleary stated that they disown their own culture and idententy. Jee golly the way I'm raised that's a bad thing.

I have many friends that would argue culture identity and nationalism is the down fall of civilized acceptence of each races. And to a degree they're right. But in my books one who would culturally jump boats for the sole reason of fad is pathetic.

pierrot le fou is correct on many ideas. My initial suggestion was that the degree that they are taking these fads is far beyond a social norm. Now I'm going to assume you know what norms are and what anti-society is as well (if not take Sociology, Anthropology and physcology 101.

In reality they're not trangressing any written laws, but again free rights can only go so far. When an individuel deams it "cool" to bring a kendo stick or even a short blade, throwing stars to school the boundries of appropriate behaviour are crossed and to a degree erased.

On another note. I'm tired of people without a single thought in their head just posting with something like " omg stop whining it's just as bad". Do you relise in just saying that you're doing what you're telling me to stop?

I apologise for my grammer, i'm quite tired.

Edit: I argue a lot with my friends. And seeing as they're accepted to MIT, and ivy league universities I've had practice on forum debates. I always lose with them though...

[NERD]

If you like arguing, study logics. Stuff that involve A*B, AvB, etc.

Trying to hold a successful argument is like holding a frankenfurter in your hands while you are trying to run through rows of vicious dogs barenaked. You just can't win.

I've been to anime clubs, and they are delusional. Caught up in their obsession so much it's not healthy. But let them be, they are content in their own bubble.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Trust me, I've met Harvard and MIT folk who can't argue their way out of a wet paper bag. Debating and being intelligent are two entirely separate skills. I'd make a solid bet that Clinton would tear the snot out of Einstein in a debate on relativity. It doesn't matter that Einstein invented it, and Clinton knows little about it. It's about style and grace with words.

If you want to learn how to debate, as said, take logic courses and join a debate club. Courses you can take are things like symbolic logic, applied logic, etc. which focus on the fundamental building blocks of rational systems (and therefore language) and allow you to see through cheap logical fallacies in speech. Plus it's a good mind workout.

[NERD]

Plus it's a good mind workout.

It is. But taking a Logic course nine o'clock in the morning when you are barely awake can be a torture on the brain. 'Oy.

I'd put my money on Clinton too if he was to argue with Einstein.

[Xenotrauma]

Blah... Pierrot kinda got the jump on me... but there's one part of this whole "thing" that drives me -nuts-.

If you like sports, that's fine. Someone may not care, but they won't instantaneously brand you a borderline delusional reject because you happen to be even wildly obsessed with sports, and can name the 3rd baseman from the '83 yankees. The same thing goes for cars, for books, for music, and the list goes -way- on.

What drives me crazy about anime kids, and I acknowledge that I'm completely biased in the point, is that it's -my- hobby. I like to watch cartoons, I like to play video games, it's fun!

So what. So what? When I meet people at school, when I meet girls, when I do basically anything where I have to describe myself, and they say "So what you do for fun?" I basically have to lie my ass off, because of this stigma that this twisted subculture has imposed on all the poor simple hobbiests that had already been doing this stuff for years.

Maybe I'd be less jaded about it if I hadn't been involved with it for so long... but until -relatively- recently (2000ish?) you could still meet people and cop to liking cartoons, animation, even show them something that was actually -good- and entertain them a little. It was an obscure hobby, but it was interesting... but most importantly, without a stigma you could cop to it. When I meet people now, they -know- what an anime fan looks like. And yeah... that's a great way to get phone numbers.

So now I've basically been shoved into some kind of social closet, where I'm the "culture and music" guy now instead, lest someone picture my ass in a sailor scout uniform trying to get sexual favors from my favorite voice actor at some con.

It's not bad once I know people, and as long as I avoid the stuff until I've had a good conversation or two with a person, honestly it's not as bad as I probably make it out to be. Once someone knows you're not a reject, nobody really worth talking to puts you into that pile.

What -does- bother me is the fact that I have to be -ashamed- of my hobbies, because 80% of the fanbase is shameful. I mean christ... take a bath ;_;

[keitaidensha]

i totally understand. i'm a necrophiliac, but it's only like a hobby, not a way of life or anything. i see all these other necros talking about the last corpse they defiled, good places to go, any close calls with being caught, and their best memories, and it kind of creeps me out. i mean casual necrophilia is one thing, but when people get obsessed with it that shit's not healthy.

[TS-]

Is your username cellphone train...? Is there a story behind that, or...?

I think it helps to view them not as anime super-fans, but disturbed people who like anime. Sorta shifts the focus to the apropriate place.

As for debate class...I don't know that I could stand to be in a classroom with 20 people who liked to argue just for it's own sake. I'm very much not one of those people, and when people lose sight of the actual truth to prove a point drives me insane.

[Pierrot le Fou]

The difference is that sports freaks are discussing something that is socially acceptable and even enviable. There is nothing wrong with loving baseball, or music, etc. because they are perfectly normal social activities. Furthermore, those hobbies are well-established, and they follow the social norms set by societies. If someone started wearing their "JETER SUCKS" t-shirt to all business meetings in NYC, you can bet that other sports fans, for the most part, would call them an idiot.

The problem is that anime communities are NOT mainstream, are NOT socially acceptable or established, and that people within them generally don't moderate their own community. Ask most 'liberals' (in the social welfare sense) what they think of Communism, and almost everyone will say that Communism is a really stupid idea. And they'll have no problem telling the person who supports communism that they're an idiot. Ditto with 'conservatives' and people supporting anarchy.

Even with baseball fanatics, the mainstream kind of pulls the outcasts into line. While there are plenty of Red Sox fans who like wearing shirts that say, "Yankees suck, Jeter Swallows" there are plenty more who say that the t-shirt is just being juvenile, and that we'd be idiots to not take Jeter if we were able to get him on the Sox. No such self-moderation and protection-against-idiocy (tm) measures exist in the anime community. Anime fans obsessed and interested go to giant conventions where people wear some pretty f'ing whacked out outfits that cost way too much money and wander around a major city in them, and those who aren't obsessed don't criticize them, and prefer to even COMPLIMENT these people on their outfits.

The people on the fringes of the anime subculture aren't told to bring themselves into line, and think that their behaviour is something resembling appropriate, and so we get some massive freaks.

Obsession is a freaky thing. Most mainstream hobbies tend to ostracize the hardcore freaks. When it comes to anime, most people want to become the freaks, or at least emulate them, because they get more attention and respect. Again, look at conventions.

Usual folk, even ones who have seen some anime and liked it like I have, find people like that to be total freaks. It's like watching a car-wreck, you don't want to look, but you have to. My thought when I see these people is, "Do they really not realize how absurd they are?"

[Xenotrauma]

See, now my eyes are open. That actually puts something up for grabs that I honestly never considered before, because it hasn't really been an issue till lately. That being the point of moderation.

With any other hobby, the hobbiests outweigh the fanatics. You have a nice 80/20 or even 90/10 split in favor of relative normalcy, and they keep the psychos in check so they don't turn something they find entertaining -into- that kind of social train wreck....

But people who happen to be into cartoons, gaming, hell I'll even throw the tabletop RPG insects a bone with this one, will never get that opportunity... because the same obscurity, foreign nature, and "weirdness" that make these hobbies interesting in the first place also happen to make them a magnet for obscure, socially foreign, and -seriously- weird people.

Once again Pierrot, you gain points as being my own personal Jesus :p

Though I have to throw a kudos to TS for the idea of seperating the freaks from the thing being freaked on... I'm already at peace with the thing being freaked on, it's people who don't know any better (and why should they care?) that throw you in this pile. Hell, in my last Japanese class, I could barely bring myself to tell other kids at the school what I was -taking-, because our class was so full of fans that I had to chew breathmints to keep from inhaling the "con smell" -_-

[megaversal]

Please read my post carefully. I cleary stated that they disown their own culture and idententy. Jee golly the way I'm raised that's a bad thing.
I'm not sure about it being a bad thing or not. In my opinion, you choose the culture or cultures that feels right to you. I think it's pretty cool that we have the option to choose which culture feels right. As for it being a fad... if it is, then they aren't really giving up their culture at all, since the assumption is that after the fad is over, they'll "return" to their original culture.

In reality they're not trangressing any written laws, but again free rights can only go so far. When an individuel deams it "cool" to bring a kendo stick or even a short blade, throwing stars to school the boundries of appropriate behaviour are crossed and to a degree erased.

The same could be said about any group. When the football team loses and people riot, that's excessive. For a while, I brought a kendo shinai to school, but oh wait... that's because I was on the kendo team. Clearly if you walk around with it because it's "cool" and not because you play the sport, it's a little strange. The same could be said about walking around with a baseball bat, football, or any other sporting equipment. Naturally bring a sword or other actual weapon to school is clearly bad judgement.


I apologise for my grammer, i'm quite tired.

Edit: I argue a lot with my friends. And seeing as they're accepted to MIT, and ivy league universities I've had practice on forum debates. I always lose with them though...

Your grammar is fine, although your spelling might need some work ;)

Arguing/debate is fine. You can never get better unless you practice, and if you don't share your ideas with others, you can never find out why they might be right or wrong.

[megaversal]

The difference is that sports freaks are discussing something that is socially acceptable and even enviable. There is nothing wrong with loving baseball, or music, etc. because they are perfectly normal social activities. Furthermore, those hobbies are well-established, and they follow the social norms set by societies. If someone started wearing their "JETER SUCKS" t-shirt to all business meetings in NYC, you can bet that other sports fans, for the most part, would call them an idiot.

The problem is that anime communities are NOT mainstream, are NOT socially acceptable or established, and that people within them generally don't moderate their own community. Ask most 'liberals' (in the social welfare sense) what they think of Communism, and almost everyone will say that Communism is a really stupid idea. And they'll have no problem telling the person who supports communism that they're an idiot. Ditto with 'conservatives' and people supporting anarchy.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not. For you to say that social norms decide whether you are going to call somebody a freak makes you a jerk. Everyone seems to need someone else to put down in order to make themselves feel great, but that doesn't make it right.

At this stage, no one has quite confirmed whether it is indeed appropriate for anarchy or communism or whatever is or isn't appropriate (there's a huge issue with multiple worlds and multiple definitions of justice as they apply to different cultures that's been a big philosophical debate for quite some time), but I personally am offended if you disprove of someone simply because they don't fit in with the social norms.

On the other hand, I also believe that those that are more extreme are more obvious in a small community. We have tons of casual sports fans, because there are so many in the group "sports fans" -- it allows for a large gradient. With "anime fans [outside of Japan?]," one doesn't have the same level of diversity, therefore a) it's easier to point out "the freaks" and b) if you want to be a part of the group, you have to be more "into it" (to add to the conversations, feel like you belong).

I know a lot of people who enjoy sports on occassion and can still be accepted by the vast majority of "hardcore sports fans" (whom do exist in far greater number than the number of "hardcore anime fans" simply because more people watch sports so there are just more out there). The anime-loving community is smaller though, which requires more devotion if you want to be part of it.

Nevertheless, I am an example of a "casual anime fan." I have seen a few shows, not a lot, and I dislike a lot, just like a dislike a lot of live action TV shows, movies, whatever, but also have those I like.

Note that I would probably not be accepted by many members of the "real" anime watching community and that is a failure on their part as much as it is for society not to accept them.

と思います anyway...

[Pierrot le Fou]

I can't tell if you're being serious or not. For you to say that social norms decide whether you are going to call somebody a freak makes you a jerk. Everyone seems to need someone else to put down in order to make themselves feel great, but that doesn't make it right.

And what else other than norms am I supposed to go on to decide whether or not people are freaks? Judging that someone is freakishly strong involves them being able to do things well above and beyond the normal range of human strength. Same with freakishly fast, or freakishly smart. Norms are important for judging where people lie, and asking me to call someone a freak on something other than the norm is asking me to ignore using language for communication.

Sports fans are mainstream. You can be the coolest kid in school and a sports fan. You can be the coolest kid in school and a music fan. You can be an incredibly popular president who likes the Rolling Stones and the Patriots, and nobody would bat an eyelash. So liking of music, or sports, is generally linked to, well, actually enjoying the thing in question.

Anime is a whole other cup of tea. The types of freaks that generally get hardcore into anime are socially inept, excluded from the mainstream, and see anime as a social group that is accepting and has the same quirks to make it more comfortable for them. That makes anime societies generally full of freaks. Pardon my French.

And that's fucked up megaversal. Period. Ignoring social conventions in favour of a small group of like-minded individuals is unhealthy and abnormal. It's unhealthy and abnormal in the same way that joining a doomsday cult, or a Montana militia is unhealthy and abnormal.

Defend it all you want. Criticize me for calling them freaks if you'd like. It doesn't change the fact that ignoring social norms and actively obsessing over something is not healthy, and is tolerated by even people who are moderate anime fans with a good grasp of reality and social conventions.

[Ceirnian]

I'm not sure about it being a bad thing or not. In my opinion, you choose the culture or cultures that feels right to you. I think it's pretty cool that we have the option to choose which culture feels right. As for it being a fad... if it is, then they aren't really giving up their culture at all, since the assumption is that after the fad is over, they'll "return" to their original culture.

The thing is that many "otaku" don't forsake their culture for the Japanese way, they adopt a fantasy version of the Japanese way gained through watching anime. So no, I don't think it's very cool at all. I find it perfectly acceptable to interact and merge with a culture, that's great! It's when you get some damn annoying teenage kid saying "That is so kawaii! What do you think Sara-chan?" when they don't even know the language enough to form a sentence that begins to cross a few lines. It would be like if some Japanese people tried to absorb American culture through MTV. Oh wait...

[Samwise]

Get this shit off my fucking forum and hang the newb responsible.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Also realize that Japanese 'otaku' as in legitimate Japanese folk who are legitimately obsessed are freaks in Japan, and ostracized hardcore (or become otaku because they're ostracized perhaps). Point is it ain't something to celebrate. And it isn't positive.

[Henjin]

Obsession with anything is unhealthy. I just wanted to clarify my view.
And yeah, I don't like being lumped in w/ the anime freaks just because I'm learning Japanese.

[mediocre]

Threads such as these renew my faith in the sensibilities of this forum.

[h2orowe]

Ha! I'll probably point out some stuff that's already been said.
Ok, I'm 15, my favorite things to do are
1.Music, either play it or listen.
2. Friends
3.Games/anime
^------that's the point I kinda made with this.
The first parts, are pretty much put up there, because of how small the anime community is that it is embarassing if you're caught talking about it. It's so weird, and lame. This girl, I saw her take out her notebook secretly in Driver's Ed, and she opened it up slowly, and I was like, oh it's probably a diary, but I saw anime drawings, and they were good, so she started shading a part of a person's hair, than closed it quickly and put it in her backpack. I later said "Nice drawings" she said "What.... drawings" and seemed serious. It's sad that people have to be ashamed of liking things because some people just take it too far.
There's this girl (The OMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN girl from some other thread I wrote in :\) and she's like OMFG ANIME IS SO COOL HAHAHAHA GO JAPAN, and her only friends are people who are nice, and just talk to her to be nice, but don't like her very much, and the anime nerds who accepted her for being an anime nerd, because they think OMG ANIME IS SO COOL HAHAHAHA SHE LIKSE IT SHE ARE MY FRIEND. (I honestly forgot where I am trying to get this too, so I appologize) But her friend in choir, who is also an anime nerd, who probably knows very little about Japan, and still uses "Baka-Truly" is not as much as a social shut-out as her friend. She seems kinda nice, and I want to get to know her. The other girl jesus christ she is wacky.

Anyway... I honestly don't think that paragraph was nesecary. Well, here's the point, I think.

It's ok to be an anime nerd. It's not okay to be an Otaku. Jesus Christ, if it weren't for Otaku, than anime would be a socially acceptable thing, instead of having to only bring it up if the timing is right.
I almost bought a Haruko from FLCL shirt the other day, but than I thought "Hmmm, I could make friends who also like anime (Filtering out the freaks though) than we could talk about stuff of that sort, maybe they also like Japanese culture, and know some good J-rock bands. That'd be pretty cool, and it's a pretty cool looking shirt. But wait, what if my other friends think I suddenly changed over summer into some creepy otaku, I guess I won't get it than." so it's like horrible that people still get looked down upon from first glance if they like something of this sort.

It's ok, for some reason, to talk about it if you know the person already. Take my friend Matt, he plays CounterStrike. He jokingly uses l337 speak in real life. Well, he made some friends with these girls, and has them (even though they don't play CS) using l337 speak.

Honestly, I forgot how to debate things.

Here's the actual point! Seriously!

It's ok to like something, or even like it a little to much, but NEVER let it consumer your entire existance. NEVER compete with someone to see who the bigger fan is, if that includes making an idiot of yourself in public, such as dressing as Man-Faye (who, from what I've read, seems actually like a nice guy) or Sailor Whale.
It's ok to adopt another culture. I find european culture boring, and my family has pretty much lived here since the pilgrims came on the Mayflower, so, my culture is pretty much American, but I enjoy other people's culture too, so I like learning about it, and Japan intrests me the most. I found out about the history in 7th, than I started to like Japan, at the time I watched anime very little and thought it was ok but liked other cartoons better, than I kinda got into more deeper series later on, and I love stories that have meanings, and metaphors so, some anime is like that, and those are usually the ones that are good, when I tried explaining to my brother why I liked anime I said "It's like an animated novel, there are really no boundaries or censorship so it's like reading a book, opposed to watching American cartoons which are like mostly childish, and the ones that aren't still are chained down by censorship. What do I like most about Japan, though? Is the reason I like it anime? No, I like it because the history is cool, the language is nice sounding (except some people who speak it.... sound very annoying), and J-rock is really good, well for some bands >.> <.< (Asian Kung-fu Generation, is one of the few Japanese bands that are actually comparable to American bands. They'd almost blow any band of today out of the water. The Pillows are amazing too.)



Ok, somehow this turned into something about myself.... >.>;


I'm trying to show you what an anime nerd thinks about this. Even though I'm more of a poser anime nerd :\ I've only seen a few series.
But yes, it's ok to adopt a culture other than your own, as long as you don't take it to far. Noone will ever know as much about another culture as it's inhabitants. If you watch Anime, and use Kawaii and Baka that doesn't make you Japanese. If you watch Soccer, and love Mexico, and say Pinche Pendejo wey, that doesn't make you mexican.

.......what the fuck am I typing about.........

When presented with the question "What do you do for fun" I say "music" when asked "What kinds" I say "Rock, some metal, some reggae, J-rock, Indie, J-indie, and Hardcore." and people are like "J-rock...?" and I'm like "Japanese rock" than they think I'm educated on a culture somehow, and if asked later on, and say I like anime, they think it's less weird, but if someone says anime but they are actually informed about the culture, if they say it first they are thought of as Otaku, and than looked down upon; and nothing sucks more than being cast out of both groups.


Don't get obsessed over things. You can see it everywhere, but very few are considered weird.
I see kids trying to act ghetto, and act gangsta, and bring knives/guns to school, does that make you cool? Fuck no. Just because you see your favorite rapper do it, doesn't mean you're gonna be cool. If anything gangsta rap is a dangerous weapon, and those who listen should be socially outcast for being dangers to themselves and others.
I see kids, and all they do is music. Any music, they know like 6 instruments. Bandos, which are actually nice people, who are social outcasts too.
Jocks, they are the most socially accepted. It is stupid because they don't know anything, but are faster than other people and are the running back, that makes them cool? It shouldn't be that way but it is. I used to be, at least, a jock, and I still had other intrests, but when people would talk about sports I'd have no idea what they rambled on about, all I wanted to do was play the sport, and hang out with my football brothers. They get a little into it sometimes.
Anime nerds, that along with gangstas, immitate what they think is cool. KENSHIN SAN WORE A COOL "JAPANESE SUIT" TODAY ON EPISODE 3-20 I MUST WEAR IT AT ANIME CON LOLZ. They take it way too far.


Ok, honestly I was trying to give you the view of an anime nerd.
I have friends, alot, and from 2 different cities, but the otaku make us anime nerds look bad, what do I do most of the time? I talk to friends all the time at school, and home I'm on the computer, showering, or sleeping, I watch anime on the weekends pretty much only. It's ridicolous that my hobbies have to be kept secret because of BAKATRULY and other otaku who only like anime.
Sometimes even the kinda weird ones can still be socially fitting. My friend (whom I "like") she goes to cons (well went to Anime Expo this year, and is going next [I'm going next year with some friends, though mostly to talk to her since she goes to a different school :( ] year) and I guess next year is cosplaying (not as an anime character but as school girl... [score!]) but she still has plenty of friends, and isn't considered weird by any means.

Dude.... FUCK I honestly forgot what I was going to say next.....
I've fucked up writing this too much.
Here's what I have to say.

[keitaidensha]

Ha! I'll probably point out some stuff that's already been said.
Ok, I'm 15, my favorite things to do are
1.Music, either play it or listen.
2. Friends
3.Games/anime
^------that's the point I kinda made with this.
The first parts, are pretty much put up there, because of how small the anime community is that it is embarassing if you're caught talking about it. It's so weird, and lame. This girl, I saw her take out her notebook secretly in Driver's Ed, and she opened it up slowly, and I was like, oh it's probably a diary, but I saw anime drawings, and they were good, so she started shading a part of a person's hair, than closed it quickly and put it in her backpack. I later said "Nice drawings" she said "What.... drawings" and seemed serious. It's sad that people have to be ashamed of liking things because some people just take it too far.
There's this girl (The OMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN girl from some other thread I wrote in :\) and she's like OMFG ANIME IS SO COOL HAHAHAHA GO JAPAN, and her only friends are people who are nice, and just talk to her to be nice, but don't like her very much, and the anime nerds who accepted her for being an anime nerd, because they think OMG ANIME IS SO COOL HAHAHAHA SHE LIKSE IT SHE ARE MY FRIEND. (I honestly forgot where I am trying to get this too, so I appologize) But her friend in choir, who is also an anime nerd, who probably knows very little about Japan, and still uses "Baka-Truly" is not as much as a social shut-out as her friend. She seems kinda nice, and I want to get to know her. The other girl jesus christ she is wacky.

Anyway... I honestly don't think that paragraph was nesecary. Well, here's the point, I think.

It's ok to be an anime nerd. It's not okay to be an Otaku. Jesus Christ, if it weren't for Otaku, than anime would be a socially acceptable thing, instead of having to only bring it up if the timing is right.
I almost bought a Haruko from FLCL shirt the other day, but than I thought "Hmmm, I could make friends who also like anime (Filtering out the freaks though) than we could talk about stuff of that sort, maybe they also like Japanese culture, and know some good J-rock bands. That'd be pretty cool, and it's a pretty cool looking shirt. But wait, what if my other friends think I suddenly changed over summer into some creepy otaku, I guess I won't get it than." so it's like horrible that people still get looked down upon from first glance if they like something of this sort.

It's ok, for some reason, to talk about it if you know the person already. Take my friend Matt, he plays CounterStrike. He jokingly uses l337 speak in real life. Well, he made some friends with these girls, and has them (even though they don't play CS) using l337 speak.

Honestly, I forgot how to debate things.

Here's the actual point! Seriously!

It's ok to like something, or even like it a little to much, but NEVER let it consumer your entire existance. NEVER compete with someone to see who the bigger fan is, if that includes making an idiot of yourself in public, such as dressing as Man-Faye (who, from what I've read, seems actually like a nice guy) or Sailor Whale.
It's ok to adopt another culture. I find european culture boring, and my family has pretty much lived here since the pilgrims came on the Mayflower, so, my culture is pretty much American, but I enjoy other people's culture too, so I like learning about it, and Japan intrests me the most. I found out about the history in 7th, than I started to like Japan, at the time I watched anime very little and thought it was ok but liked other cartoons better, than I kinda got into more deeper series later on, and I love stories that have meanings, and metaphors so, some anime is like that, and those are usually the ones that are good, when I tried explaining to my brother why I liked anime I said "It's like an animated novel, there are really no boundaries or censorship so it's like reading a book, opposed to watching American cartoons which are like mostly childish, and the ones that aren't still are chained down by censorship. What do I like most about Japan, though? Is the reason I like it anime? No, I like it because the history is cool, the language is nice sounding (except some people who speak it.... sound very annoying), and J-rock is really good, well for some bands >.> <.< (Asian Kung-fu Generation, is one of the few Japanese bands that are actually comparable to American bands. They'd almost blow any band of today out of the water. The Pillows are amazing too.)



Ok, somehow this turned into something about myself.... >.>;


I'm trying to show you what an anime nerd thinks about this. Even though I'm more of a poser anime nerd :\ I've only seen a few series.
But yes, it's ok to adopt a culture other than your own, as long as you don't take it to far. Noone will ever know as much about another culture as it's inhabitants. If you watch Anime, and use Kawaii and Baka that doesn't make you Japanese. If you watch Soccer, and love Mexico, and say Pinche Pendejo wey, that doesn't make you mexican.

.......what the fuck am I typing about.........

When presented with the question "What do you do for fun" I say "music" when asked "What kinds" I say "Rock, some metal, some reggae, J-rock, Indie, J-indie, and Hardcore." and people are like "J-rock...?" and I'm like "Japanese rock" than they think I'm educated on a culture somehow, and if asked later on, and say I like anime, they think it's less weird, but if someone says anime but they are actually informed about the culture, if they say it first they are thought of as Otaku, and than looked down upon; and nothing sucks more than being cast out of both groups.


Don't get obsessed over things. You can see it everywhere, but very few are considered weird.
I see kids trying to act ghetto, and act gangsta, and bring knives/guns to school, does that make you cool? Fuck no. Just because you see your favorite rapper do it, doesn't mean you're gonna be cool. If anything gangsta rap is a dangerous weapon, and those who listen should be socially outcast for being dangers to themselves and others.
I see kids, and all they do is music. Any music, they know like 6 instruments. Bandos, which are actually nice people, who are social outcasts too.
Jocks, they are the most socially accepted. It is stupid because they don't know anything, but are faster than other people and are the running back, that makes them cool? It shouldn't be that way but it is. I used to be, at least, a jock, and I still had other intrests, but when people would talk about sports I'd have no idea what they rambled on about, all I wanted to do was play the sport, and hang out with my football brothers. They get a little into it sometimes.
Anime nerds, that along with gangstas, immitate what they think is cool. KENSHIN SAN WORE A COOL "JAPANESE SUIT" TODAY ON EPISODE 3-20 I MUST WEAR IT AT ANIME CON LOLZ. They take it way too far.


Ok, honestly I was trying to give you the view of an anime nerd.
I have friends, alot, and from 2 different cities, but the otaku make us anime nerds look bad, what do I do most of the time? I talk to friends all the time at school, and home I'm on the computer, showering, or sleeping, I watch anime on the weekends pretty much only. It's ridicolous that my hobbies have to be kept secret because of BAKATRULY and other otaku who only like anime.
Sometimes even the kinda weird ones can still be socially fitting. My friend (whom I "like") she goes to cons (well went to Anime Expo this year, and is going next [I'm going next year with some friends, though mostly to talk to her since she goes to a different school :( ] year) and I guess next year is cosplaying (not as an anime character but as school girl... [score!]) but she still has plenty of friends, and isn't considered weird by any means.

Dude.... FUCK I honestly forgot what I was going to say next.....
I've fucked up writing this too much.
Here's what I have to say.

tl;dr stupid rule

[Henjin]

I freaked out my friend when I was in Japan because I was showing him all the artists I knew in this CD store. I was even naming the people they were playing over the speakers... Thing was, I don't like most of what I was talking about. I just know about them. *shrug* That said, all I bought in Japan was CDs, a DVD and an RC car. Heh.

[kitsunepixie]

As someone mentioned earlier, it's not so much that anime turns people into socially-withdrawn individuals, but that many already socially-withdrawn individuals are drawn to anime. If there wasn't anime, then they would probably find some other hobby to obsess over, although anime may be a less isolated pursuit than the other options available, given how prolific it is recently with conventions in almost every state. Asperger's Syndrome and Schizotypal Personality Disorder are two psychiatric conditions that seem especially high among anime fans. AS people tend to latch onto hobbies that involve a lot of categorizing, such as computers, stamp collecting, mathematics, ect., so it's not really a large jump to become interested in robot model making, ect. I witnessed a girl with said syndrome who lived each moment for memorizing material on Biker Mice from Mars (or whatever it was called) until she discovered Pokemon. Since there was no one who shared the former hobby, she was a very isolated person until she started meeting people through her interest in Pokemon, since it had such a wider fan-base. Initially, this obsession was just as unhealthy as the one before it, in that it WAS her life, rather than a part of it. On the positive, though, one could say that the root for her obsessions was loneliness, and I have seen she has started moving away from her otaku-ness and toward her friendships with real people. In any case, I think it is important to consider that a large number of these "otaku" are people who are probably predisposed to suffer from mental disorders before we disdain them. I'm certainly not advocating extreme obsession of that sort, but we should keep in mind that these are people who are very lonely because of their innate weirdness and their obsession is something that brings them comfort.

[Daishikaze]

I'm with you guys, The Fandom is insane now. I'd like to know when this all started!?

I've been watching anime for a very long time, and I sure as hell have never taken things anywhere near to the extreme. I've checked out an anime exclusive forum and found topics like "Who is your anime Crush?" "Which anime character do you want to marry?" " What anime Character are you most like?"

Thats just disturbing to say the least. The Crush and Marriage threads has loads of arguments over who gets who! "I want Sesshomaru" "Back off, Sesshy is all mine!", This shit isn't healthy. And the shear fact that I get lumped together with these people just because I watch anime is really upsetting.

[hanacker]

Sports fans are mainstream. You can be the coolest kid in school and a sports fan. You can be the coolest kid in school and a music fan. You can be an incredibly popular president who likes the Rolling Stones and the Patriots, and nobody would bat an eyelash. So liking of music, or sports, is generally linked to, well, actually enjoying the thing in question.

Anime is a whole other cup of tea. The types of freaks that generally get hardcore into anime are socially inept, excluded from the mainstream, and see anime as a social group that is accepting and has the same quirks to make it more comfortable for them. That makes anime societies generally full of freaks. Pardon my French.

Sort of agree, but I do think a lot of people (especially girls) would consider a sports-obsessed person like Jimmy Fallon's character in Fever Pitch to be pretty geeky. And I also think it's possible to be a casual anime fan and still be cool. I've met casual anime fans, and I'm not sure if any of them were cool (they at least weren't social outcasts), but it must be at least possible.

[Shii]

I am a HUGE fan of anime and manga. But it isn't the only thing that I like. I might even be obsessed with it! But not obsessed in a way where I compete with others just to impress people. I watch anime and read manga because I enjoy it and because it is a hobby of mine. I draw my own manga and design my own characters because it is also a hobby of mine. I sew up costumes that are based off of my favorite characters because I have loved wearing costumes since my first halloween when I was two years old. But I also design my own original costumes... So everything ties in together. I can express my creativity best with anime and manga. What is wrong with that? If my school was cool and had an anime club, I would NEVER miss a session.

People love talking about what they love with other people. Some people like sports and others anime/manga. Or video games. And people who love those things talk best about them. It's no different than talking about a football game or books... I really don't understand what you are getting at.

[stsparky]

Are people dumping on others for being obsessed fans? Heh. Just find new "friends" and move on. If it isn't harming others - it isn't worth the upset.

[Henjin]

It's not necessarily that it's harming anyone else, but it's not healthy to be so obessed with something. I mean, having a hobby is great, and I personally think that a lot of people labed 'geeks' or 'dorks' are alot more interesting and well adjusted than 'normal' people whose 'hobby' is watching Desperate Housewives or Football. That said, obession w/ any of those things that gets out of control and negatively affects your life isn't good.

[Woko]

People love talking about what they love with other people. Some people like sports and others anime/manga. Or video games. And people who love those things talk best about them. It's no different than talking about a football game or books... I really don't understand what you are getting at.

Well, it may be that because he started watching anime & reading manga "way before they were in" and doesn't like how many ppl are into it now... something like "I started watching it when only a few ppl did, now you all come and ramble about how Kenshin is cool and that pisses me off".
As for the anime club thing - how is it different than for example some sports club? If you're not really hardcore you have other friends, hang out with 'em, go to pubs or whatever, it's not like you do nothing but watch anime.

[hapamama]

I've found that the really rabid anime fans are a lot like the really rabid Trekkers... you know, the kind that learned to speak Klingon?

Obsession is not healthy, period.

[Henjin]

At least you'd get more use out of Japanese than Klingon. Heh.

[Whothefuckispink]

No, klingon is great, it allows you to speak to the other, at least, 15 people who speak it on the trekkie-forums.

[Xenotrauma]

Shii-

I'm sorry if I come off like I think clubs are innately bad, that anime/manga are innately bad, or that holding some kind of special event for something you love is even necessarily bad.

What I get actively (and probably unjustifiably.. oh well) frustrated with is the fact that these things that I think are so -good- are coming to be associated with a type of person that I, personally, do -not- want to be seen as. Nothing I wrote applies to anybody here if they: 1) Maintain their personal hygene, or 2) Are holding down a steady job and living a productive life.

I would put 3) can't establish or maintain social relationships, but because of the type of people drawn to this kinda stuff... hell, the club thing is probably -great- for them. Even if they're only meeting other fans that will propogate a distorted and probably dangerous sense of normalcy, I mean at least they're getting fresh air.

The hobbies are fine, hell... having the one obsessed guy who knows all the stats on something you like is even fun sometimes, especially with sports. Being obsessed with anything to the detrement of all else isn't healthy, but meh... we all have our unhealthy stuff, and I sure as hell won't give up my fast food! Just take my posts as pure rants against what is basically just a fact: weird people like my hobbies, and my hobbies -will- be associated with weird people. It sucks ass, but that's the way it is. I get the impression Marx would get the same feeling if he found out what 80% of the people turned his stuff into... with the little group of people off to the side saying "God... now we can't talk about Marx in public anymore. Dammit."

[Arkan]

Hmm I really didn't mean to start this long of a discussion, I just wanted to word a pet peeve.

On a note made earlier, Logic skills are usefull, agreed. But more useful are facts. I mean any talented linguistic can spur some pretty words in a well put sentence but if they don't have any factual base to support the idea then it's really nothing more than jibberish.

In my opinion you need both ability with language and knowledge on the debated topic. I highly disagree with the clinton-einstein remark. I mean anyone that goes into a debate with just charasma is the laughing stock there. Believe me I've seen guys try that, they're just made fools. In my life I knew 4 langueges. And little of others.

Kurdish, Turkish, Arabic, English. Knew some German, Swedish, and French.

You can't make a cake with just the ingdrediants you also need an oven and conventional tools, same goes for just haveing the tools, you need some flower etc..

[Dai]

I'm with you guys, The Fandom is insane now. I'd like to know when this all started!?

I've been watching anime for a very long time, and I sure as hell have never taken things anywhere near to the extreme. I've checked out an anime exclusive forum and found topics like "Who is your anime Crush?" "Which anime character do you want to marry?" " What anime Character are you most like?"

Thats just disturbing to say the least. The Crush and Marriage threads has loads of arguments over who gets who! "I want Sesshomaru" "Back off, Sesshy is all mine!", This shit isn't healthy. And the shear fact that I get lumped together with these people just because I watch anime is really upsetting.


I´m sure they are just fangirlishing, not that they´re really obsessed. My girlfriend´s sister who likes/loves anime, jpop and jrock, likes to chat with her friends about ´bishounen´, among other subjects, and they make fangirlish comments like that. I think they are pretty sane.

[I ARE 1031]

Trust me, I've met Harvard and MIT folk who can't argue their way out of a wet paper bag. Debating and being intelligent are two entirely separate skills. I'd make a solid bet that Clinton would tear the snot out of Einstein in a debate on relativity. It doesn't matter that Einstein invented it, and Clinton knows little about it. It's about style and grace with words.

If you want to learn how to debate, as said, take logic courses and join a debate club. Courses you can take are things like symbolic logic, applied logic, etc. which focus on the fundamental building blocks of rational systems (and therefore language) and allow you to see through cheap logical fallacies in speech. Plus it's a good mind workout.

Ummm, don't compare Clinton to Einstein. Einstein was a genius, Clinton was a popular puppet to the American public. Anyhow, I think that taking classes in order to understand the art of debating (I think it is an art) is a waste. Just like taking SAT courses, you are cheating yourself in the end. If a person's mind works that way and they face someone who has tried to reprogram the way they think the person who takes classes will be dumbfounded (one word? doubt it but whatever). As for SAT courses, it is somebody cramming information they will forget, all to be seen as a higher level student than their ability allows. They get into a college that is out of their league and drop out, what a cycle. Well, I said enough.

[h2orowe]

I'm gonna kind of do a study this year :\ I'll befriend some fan girls/boys and otaku (not hang out with them, god no !) through Japanese club (which last year was basically anime club but with like Japanese holidays celebrated), than I'll report back to you guys why they are so unhealthily obsessed. Ha! I should make a documentary about this.
Inside the mind of an outsider.
XD hahaha noone would watch that.....
Anyway, heh, hopefully the ones I'll talk to aren't too crazy (I know that Baka-Truly "Omaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-chaaaaaaaaaaaan!" girl is..... Oh dear god......) about anime. Heh, I'm gonna be Japanese club historian, and hopefully bring real Japanese culture into that club; because noone likes white people walking around school in a kimono (the only people that did were these 2 white girls, but one actually seems pretty bearable :\).

I'll make a thread about this either later tommorow or tonight.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Ummm, don't compare Clinton to Einstein. Einstein was a genius, Clinton was a popular puppet to the American public. Anyhow, I think that taking classes in order to understand the art of debating (I think it is an art) is a waste. Just like taking SAT courses, you are cheating yourself in the end. If a person's mind works that way and they face someone who has tried to reprogram the way they think the person who takes classes will be dumbfounded (one word? doubt it but whatever). As for SAT courses, it is somebody cramming information they will forget, all to be seen as a higher level student than their ability allows. They get into a college that is out of their league and drop out, what a cycle. Well, I said enough.
You entirely missed my point. Debating and being able to figure out relativity are two entirely different skill-sets. Which is why I just creamed you with this post, regardless of whether or not I'm more intelligent.

[CNagy]

Maybe I've been living in some sort of mini-utopia, but in my experience a majority of anime fans are not obsessed freaks. I like anime quite a bit, I watch fansubs, and I've been tempted occasionally to go to a convention dressed up as a recognizable anime/game character (I might eventually give Agent 47 from Hitman a try.) Many of the people I know are much the same. I have met, in my time at college, perhaps a couple true anime freaks.

Conventions are hardly proof-positive of anime fan freakery being the majority. They are gathering spots for those who take their hobby rather too far, but like any gather of people who have one specific interest in common, you are going to draw the wierd crowd. When I go to a convention, most of the people are not in costume. Many of those who are in costume like the chance to dress up and act as someone else for a day or a weekend. Some costumes are obviously expensive (like the complete replica Master Chief armor, with internal cooling system, or alot of the intricate anime costumes) and some are rather "ghetto" (I saw tetris blocks and a box from MGS,) but that is disposable income. People are not freaks for spending money, they are consumers.

Most of the anime clubs I've come in contact with were not full of raving fanboys and fangirls but people who used it to meet people with similar interests, to see a couple of titles they might not have otherwise seen, and to add another social event to their otherwise normal lives. We don't put up with otaku stench just because it is an anime club, and getting ostracized in an anime club has made one of the few otaku I've met moderate himself to the point that I would no longer put him in that category.

Maybe, in the overall picture, my experiences are well in the minority. But speaking from my own experiences, anime fans get an undeserved bad rap.

[I ARE 1031]

You entirely missed my point. Debating and being able to figure out relativity are two entirely different skill-sets. Which is why I just creamed you with this post, regardless of whether or not I'm more intelligent.

Ahh, the self-proclaimed winner...nothing more infallible than one who wins based on his own opinion.

Sidenote: I got the point, but your example sucked.
:eek: Oh no he didn't?!
:cool: Oh yes I did...

[Pierrot le Fou]

Nothing more infallible than one who wins because he's right ;)

Einstein wasn't a debator. And while I'm sure he was incredibly intelligent, going through the finer points of relativity doesn't make for good debate.

It's a praxis thing. Einstein had a gnosis thing going.

[Shii]

Shii-

I'm sorry if I come off like I think clubs are innately bad, that anime/manga are innately bad, or that holding some kind of special event for something you love is even necessarily bad...



(Bear with me... I am not the most quickest person in the world.)

So what you are saying is that you don't want to be stereotyped as an anime fan in a bad way?

That's pretty sad if that's the case... I don't like it when I am stereotyped, but at least I don't care what others think of me. As long as I am having fun.

[Shii]

I´m sure they are just fangirlishing, not that they´re really obsessed. My girlfriend´s sister who likes/loves anime, jpop and jrock, likes to chat with her friends about ´bishounen´, among other subjects, and they make fangirlish comments like that. I think they are pretty sane.

I do that and I am perfectly sane. (I am insane in my own way...) It's just fun to be girly and flip out over some good lookin' anime guys. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with fangirls. *strong bad voice* Being girly is FUN!

[Xenotrauma]

That's pretty sad if that's the case... I don't like it when I am stereotyped, but at least I don't care what others think of me. As long as I am having fun.

Um... exactly... and wha? Being stereotyped is what sucks. We agree on this, no? That was my -only- point. Period. I'm not sure what else you read into that.. but maybe now I'm missing -your- point, because being stereotyped DOES have an effect on what people think about you, and that matters because I'm a social animal dammit :D

[I ARE 1031]

Nothing more infallible than one who wins because he's right ;)

Einstein wasn't a debator. And while I'm sure he was incredibly intelligent, going through the finer points of relativity doesn't make for good debate.

It's a praxis thing. Einstein had a gnosis thing going.

I don't think you are right...you are left. HAHA, stupid joke, HAHA! Einstein owns you and most importantly he owns me. :eek: :confused: ;)

[Shii]

Um... exactly... and wha? Being stereotyped is what sucks. We agree on this, no? That was my -only- point. Period. I'm not sure what else you read into that.. but maybe now I'm missing -your- point, because being stereotyped DOES have an effect on what people think about you, and that matters because I'm a social animal dammit :D

*sigh* Like I said... I am not the quickest person. *weeps*

But we both hate being stereotyped so we are A-Okay!

My #1 philosophy is: Be nice to everyone TILL you find out that they are assholes. And don't let anyone bring you down for what you like.

(sorry I didn't read your previous post.)

[Pierrot le Fou]

The reason stereotypes exist is two-fold:
1) Accuracy
2) Ignorance

The one about anime fans is the former, not the latter. Honestly, Anime fans on the whole have a freak content WELL beyond the daily recommended amounts of freakishness. And that's life. Once it starts to change, it will become number 2, and then you can complain about being stereotyped. In the meantime, tell anime freaks to stop being such, well, freaks.

Only you can prevent these people from breeding.

[Xenotrauma]

Also realize that Japanese 'otaku' as in legitimate Japanese folk who are legitimately obsessed are freaks in Japan, and ostracized hardcore (or become otaku because they're ostracized perhaps). Point is it ain't something to celebrate. And it isn't positive.

I don't suppose, living there, you have any ideas on how we can somehow make -this- a cultural fad instead :cool:

[Pierrot le Fou]

Yeah, have a few murder their families in their sleep and go to prison, making people that obsessed freaky AND scary, rather than freaky and harmless as they currently are. Worked well here. Shut-ins have something wrong. People obsessive to that extent have a problem upstairs. This is made clear in Japan when, as said, they murder their families in their sleep with a hammer.

[Xenotrauma]

If you ever start a religion Pierrot... I will join it :p

[Pierrot le Fou]

Yes, because after proclaiming how I dislike obsessive freaks, my next order of business was to make a religion for obsessive freaks to join.

It reminds of those Mr. Boffo cartoons, "Unclear on the concept."

[kyaa the catlord]

What his Lordship pierrot doesn't get is that not every anime fan is an "obsessive freak". Only the good ones are... But hey, don't stop hating...

[Pierrot le Fou]

What his Lordship pierrot doesn't get is that not every anime fan is an "obsessive freak". Only the good ones are... But hey, don't stop hating...
Now I like the occassional cartoon. There's nothing wrong with that. It's called an 'interest.' I liked cartoons (American and otherwise) through High School and college. And there are plenty of people like me who grew up on Transformers, and Animaniacs, and Batman the Animated Series, and then discovered an entire different set of cartoons from Japan to explore as well, and found a few we liked, and such was such. There are people who liked them even more than me, and one could say that their hobby was watching cartoons. That too I didn't mind. These were the folks who would haul their asses out of bed at 6am on a Saturday to watch the entire Saturday morning cartoon lineup. I could never be bothered.

Then there are the anime freaks. They are so goddamned obsessed that rather than recognize that obsession is unhealthy, they try to convince each other that they are MORE obsessed than the other folks in the same boat. This is NOT healthy. When you look at things on here like the thread about what anime folks have seen, people seem to be competing to make their list as long as possible and show that they're a bigger fan. That's disturbing. That is not healthy.

Post #7 (http://outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1087&page=1&pp=20)

What kyaa doesn't get is that I never said that every anime fan is an obsessive freak. What I did however say is...

No such self-moderation and protection-against-idiocy (tm) measures exist in the anime community. Anime fans obsessed and interested go to giant conventions where people wear some pretty f'ing whacked out outfits that cost way too much money and wander around a major city in them, and those who aren't obsessed don't criticize them, and prefer to even COMPLIMENT these people on their outfits.

The people on the fringes of the anime subculture aren't told to bring themselves into line, and think that their behaviour is something resembling appropriate, and so we get some massive freaks.

Obsession is a freaky thing. Most mainstream hobbies tend to ostracize the hardcore freaks. When it comes to anime, most people want to become the freaks, or at least emulate them, because they get more attention and respect. Again, look at conventions.

What kyaa doesn't get is that I am distinguishing between the obsessed and those well within the bounds of normal. You're claiming that good fans are obsessive freaks.

Congratulations for proving my point and making a complete and total ass of yourself.

[Chinpokomon]

Not that anyone asked, but here's my personal opinion.

Because there are so many people who like sports, it is, by definition, mainstream.
When you go "overboard" (wearing face paint to games, memorizing stats, spending inordinate amounts of time/money) in something that is mainstream, it is not only acceptable, it's seen as something to be proud of.

However, if you go overboard on something that's not mainstream (anime/manga), it creeps people out, and you're socially ostracized.

I really don't see that big a difference between wearing facepaint to games and dressing up as your favorite anime character. I find both to be equally strange.

I do feel bad for the people who are merely fans of anime, and don't go overboard, but who are stigmatized because of their more eccentric peers. However, if anime/manga does become mainstream, you have the comfort of knowing that society will no longer think dressing up as Inuyasha to be odd.

Personally, I'm a gamer, but I could care less about anime. To me there's a big difference in the fans of these groups, (as going overboard as a gamer simply means spending lots of time playing video games, no cosplay required), but I'm not so sure mainstream society distinguishes.

[kyaa the catlord]

The reason stereotypes exist is two-fold:
1) Accuracy
2) Ignorance

The one about anime fans is the former, not the latter. Honestly, Anime fans on the whole have a freak content WELL beyond the daily recommended amounts of freakishness. And that's life. Once it starts to change, it will become number 2, and then you can complain about being stereotyped. In the meantime, tell anime freaks to stop being such, well, freaks.

Only you can prevent these people from breeding.

Yes, we all see how rational Mr. Pierrot's otaku-cleansing program is...

Zieg le fou!

[kyaa the catlord]

[right]
Congratulations for proving my point and making a complete and total ass of yourself.

In my country we have a saying, "takes one to know one." Well met.

[Pierrot le Fou]

And yet again I get compared to Hitler.

Okay, it's sociology time. Society has these wonderful things called 'mores' that state that you shouldn't put your birkenstock wearing feet on top of the roast during Christmas dinner. Shocking, I know. It also determines other things, like people with 40% body fat being unhealthy and unattractive. It states that rooting for a team is okay, but that hooliganism is not. All sorts of wonderful things like that.

Things that are mainstream either alter the mores to fit their patterns, or are within the bounds of those mores which is why they become mainstream.

Believe it or not, making a public ass of yourself while wearing facepaint in front of a home viewing audience of several million is perfectly acceptable in our society. Most of us find it weird, and it tends to suggest someone had a few too many before they got to the stadium, but it's once a week at most, up to 19 times a year. It would not be acceptable to wear the cheesehead hat to a business meeting even if all your coworkers were GB Packer fans.

At the same time, it is perfectly acceptable to whoop, holler, boo, whistle, and cheer at a game. It is not acceptable to toss bottles, beat up opposing fans, or vomit on the person in front of you (unless they're REALLY annoying).

The other big thing about being a sports fan is that you do it all publicly. It's a social activity. Nobody paints their face and watches football alone on Sunday in their living room. Well, someone probably does, and even the people at games doing that probably think said person is weird. Because it just ain't normal to be painting yourself up to watch a game alone when nobody can see you.

And that's where this whole anime thing comes in.

In Japan, most otaku are fucking bonkers degree nuts. They will dress and act as their favourite character. They go to coffee shops which are solely for people who do the same. They will spend thousands of hours in their rooms away from human contact. They will shut themselves away from regular society at the exclusion of what they choose to see.

Sports fans don't do this.

And when you have people withdrawing from society, or self-censoring huge chunks of society in preference of living in this tiny little make-believe corner of reality, people are going to think that's weird, anti-social, and quite abnormal. And they'd be right. Part of life is going out there and participating in reality. Hiding away in anime is no such thing. Having your life and friends and social network revolve around people with the same limited view of the world is really unhealthy.

So we look at those people as obsessed freaks.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing that, because it's fucking spot-on. If a guy was sitting around and revolving his life around a belief that he could find a pot at the end of the rainbow, watched Lucky Charms ads and other leprechaun media all day, dressed in a little green suit and dyed his beard red, we'd think he was absolutely insane. If his entire group of friends were people who shared an interest in leprechauns (perhaps kids whose favourite cereal is Lucky Charms), then the same people defending anime fans would think the guy should be committed.

Locking yourself away in an unhealthy obsessive way is not normal.

The things that are comparable to otaku are cults and militia, where your view of reality is restricted to that cult/militia (though in this case voluntarily). It's not a matter of mainstream or not, it's a matter of healthy interaction with reality, or using an obsession as an escape from it. And for God knows what reason (perhaps cartoons being associated with childhood and a lack of a desire to grow up?) anime fans tend to obsess in the 'escape from reality' way.

If it were an addiction, then perhaps we could compare it to alcoholism. But it ain't. It's just a choice. So...

[kyaa the catlord]

Well, based on the fact that I know people who do believe in things as irrational as leprechauns, and I don't believe they should be committed, I guess I'm a singularity.

Brilliant. :P

I'd like to point out that although you may have well argued reasons for the mass emasculation of japanese otaku, these people aren't the ones that this thread was intended to talk about and flying off the handle because you have issues about j-otaku is kinda... scary.

[PopCulturePooka]

PLF wins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

[kyaa the catlord]

PLF wins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

No, PLF loses. Mine was a reference to Gundam, he's the one who named the dictator. :D

Not that it matters, I don't take anything seriously on a message board. :P

[kyaa the catlord]

Besides, I claim Quirks exception. :P

[Pierrot le Fou]

So you are friends with someone who's entire focus is on leprechauns? I find that hard to believe.

Believing in leprechauns isn't enough to get you committed. Devoting your life to them should be. Surrounding yourself solely with people who reinforce your view of life with leprechauns is unhealthy. Ignoring reality is unhealthy.

This applies to all things equally. You seem to think sports do this, when they're definitely nowhere near where an otaku resides on the freak scale.

[kyaa the catlord]

Damn pierrot, beat up any nerds lately?

[Ceirnian]

Kyaa you really did lose, stop trying.

[B MacD]

Damn pierrot, beat up any nerds lately?

You continue to demonstrate that you are incapable of constructing a logical argument..

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
"An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally "argument to the man"), is a logical fallacy that involves replying to an argument or assertion by addressing the person presenting the argument or assertion rather than the argument itself."

[Veren]

In Japan, most otaku are fucking bonkers degree nuts. They will dress and act as their favourite character. They go to coffee shops which are solely for people who do the same. They will spend thousands of hours in their rooms away from human contact. They will shut themselves away from regular society at the exclusion of what they choose to see.

Agreed. I often have the feeling that, for the freakishly hardcore anime fan, they have merely made the anime world their reality. They've rejected the real world and sorta made their own "anime" world to live in. And yes, that's unhealthy. Besides the cults and milita examples, I think some people dwelling in online worlds (MMOs and online text-based and graphical RPGs) tend to do this as well... their online personas become their personas, and that online world becomes their only world. And yes, that's unhealthy.

It is a shame though that these individuals stain the image of anime just as another form of animation. A similar situation happened with table-top RPGs years ago, where people didn't mention that they played D&D, for instance, unless you knew it was "safe", for fear that people would think you "absolutely bonkers/a devil worshipper/etc". Ditto the gaming scene, but this is slowly changing as online gaming gets more mainstream. But still, there are the people who get obsessed with these forms of entertainment too, forming what is becoming known as a "gaming addiction". And that isn't healthy either.

I agree that it's not the medium that's the problem. It's that people are attracted to the medium (anime, in this case) because it offers a weird sense of alternate reality that people can escape into. And it probably is a form of addiction in the same way that gambling can be an addiction. not a physical addiction, but a psychological/mental addiction.

[Iseult]

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing that, because it's fucking spot-on. If a guy was sitting around and revolving his life around a belief that he could find a pot at the end of the rainbow, watched Lucky Charms ads and other leprechaun media all day, dressed in a little green suit and dyed his beard red, we'd think he was absolutely insane. If his entire group of friends were people who shared an interest in leprechauns (perhaps kids whose favourite cereal is Lucky Charms), then the same people defending anime fans would think the guy should be committed.


I see. So you're saying it's all in the leprechauntext.

[RDClip]

I wouldn't say that anime feeds anti-social behaviour. If someone is anti-social, there was roots there even before any interests came up. So, if someone has anti-social tendencies, they will be anti-social. The world is sometimes hard to live in; people sometimes need to escape reality.(though they shouldn't live outside their world)

Seems that most people think the majority of anime fans are rapid, cosplaying freaks. I can say that is not the case, the majority of anime fans are normal people with jobs, friends, and everything; it just seems that the freaks get more attention.(oddly enough even though anti-social, they draw attention to themselves) However, when people start losing themselves inside of fiction, that is a problem.

I can say I am an anime fan, and I can say I know more about it than the average self-proclaimed 'otaku'. However, I will never EVER take part in their crazy antics like dressing up like a character. I watch anime because it is entertaining and no other reason. It would just be nice not to be grouped in with the weirdos and for people to understand that the supposed 'otakus' don't even represent the majority or the fandom.

[Iseult]

I don't think the point was that anime in particular feeds anti-social tendencies.

ANY closed society becomes.... mentally inbred, if you will. It happens all the time - corporate "culture" is one example; politics at a certain level is another. Once your in-group is closed off from society as a whole, you begin to practice group-think, which further isolates your group. When you're talking about a group that's already on the fringe of society, the effects are exacerbated because there are fewer outlets available.

Any problems are then viewed as coming from outside, as the group pulls in ever tighter. Rigid social controls within the group arise. People within the group start to see themselves only in the group context, and less as individuals. Being booted from the group becomes a painful threat, as there is no longer any other social context by which the individual may define himself.

But that has nothing to do with anime as such, and everything to do with dropping the rest of your social life to participate in an obsessive fan cult - or any cult, for that matter.

[more cheerios]

What I've noticed (and I like anime) is that the majority of " anime nerds " were rejected by their own society (teased in school, abused, whatever). People who have dissappointing childhoods tend to grow up and latch onto some sort of fantasy. For some, it may be Star Trek. Others, it may be immersing yourself into novels. Possibly even to the extremes like prostitution, drugs, alcohol.
I say, hey, let them be immersed! Sometimes, some people need to escape reality and just hang out. You know? Anime is a kind of escape and a far healthier one than drugs or prostitution.

People are who they are, it's not nice to judge. Sure it irritates me when people become overly obsessed with Japan, but I'm not going to deny them that right.

[Whothefuckispink]

As long as people are hapy, they can immerse themselves as much as they want in any cult or reality-escape, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. We're all dead in 100 years anyway. That is how simple my philosphy is.

[Shamu]

So what if I had an interest in Japan before I started watching anime? Because my interest in anime was spurred on by the interest in Japan. Would I still be considered a freak? I find myself in a growing number of what is becoming known as the "anime moms". I wear my tight ass jeans, 4" heels, a push-up bra and my Inuyasha t-shirt and go shopping at the comic store to buy the latest volume of Bleach or FMA. Does that still qualify me as a freak? I watch anime alot and read manga. I "fan girl" over the characters because they're funny or interesting and talk to my friends about it too.
Seriously, does that make me a freak? I don't really care if does, but I'm just curious.
I think any obsession as long as it's not hurting anyone is fine. Some people need that escapeism to get by in life once in a while. If they're not hurting anyone or themselves, let them be.

[more cheerios]

Well, certain people tend to define "freak" as someone that is nothing like them and/or has separate interests. It's a sad concept.

[Whothefuckispink]

I certainly hope not, who is brendan?

[more cheerios]

Hmm.. just a friend of mine, I didn't see your avatar, sorry. D:

[Whothefuckispink]

It wasnt there before, and its WAY too big. hmm, wait a minute..

[Whothefuckispink]

That was a wicked smiley, by the way...

[more cheerios]

That was a wicked smiley, by the way...
Thanks, I love it, too. *:

[h2orowe]

So what if I had an interest in Japan before I started watching anime? Because my interest in anime was spurred on by the interest in Japan. Would I still be considered a freak? I find myself in a growing number of what is becoming known as the "anime moms". I wear my tight ass jeans, 4" heels, a push-up bra and my Inuyasha t-shirt and go shopping at the comic store to buy the latest volume of Bleach or FMA. Does that still qualify me as a freak? I watch anime alot and read manga. I "fan girl" over the characters because they're funny or interesting and talk to my friends about it too.
Seriously, does that make me a freak? I don't really care if does, but I'm just curious.
I think any obsession as long as it's not hurting anyone is fine. Some people need that escapeism to get by in life once in a while. If they're not hurting anyone or themselves, let them be.
Ha! I had an intrest in Japan before anime, due to 7th grade history class.
I started watching anime, only slightly in 6th grade, when Adult Swim began. I liked Inuyasha (XD), Yu Yu Hakusho, and Cowboy Bebop at the time, and that was all I knew. I thought it was just cartoons, than when Japan came in history class, I got intrested in Japanese things, and found out that the action shows on Adult Swim were something called Anime and that that comes from Japan. So, I liked it casually for a bit, but than Summer came, and I needed something to pass the extra time, now I love anime. I'm pretty Closet case about it, but if confronted I talk about it. I'm not popular, or a cool kid by any means, but I have alot of friends, and I watch anime alot (well not much at the moment, but Bleach 50+51 tonight!!!!!!!!!!), and am planning to go to a convention with some friends and I'm by no means a social shutout.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Everyone in this thread seems to be confirming my assumption that even the people within the range of 'normal' in the anime fandom world refuse to criticize the people that go overboard. You're all defending anime fans who are freaks, and you refuse to state that it's freakish and unhealthy.

It is unhealthy to be a shut in. Is it really that hard to agree with that comment? If this were leprechauns this thread would have been 5 posts. Because it's anime, you all want to argue.

Silliness.

[hapacheese]

I enjoy *some* anime, much in the way I enjoy *some* movies and *some* books.

I see nothing wrong with going to see an anime movie at the theater (or even watching one at home), going to an anime convention, or whatever. However, pierrot is right in that when it interferes with "real life," it becomes an issue. There's nothing wrong with liking anime. There *is* something wrong with being lost in anime.

That doesn't mean people can't do it. It's their own life, they're free to live it. But, just because someone *can* do it, doesn't mean it's healthy or they *should*.

[Xenotrauma]

I guess the only question still rolling around in my mind is, if we had to choose, would we rather have shut-ins hiding in their houses not bothering the normal people, or is it better that they go out and join organizations that, while completely supporting their "issues" with reality, seem to actually get them into a more social atmosphere every once and again?

A huge part of me wants to say that we need to find a way to... um... "strongly encourage" the freaks who don't want to adjust to normalcy and learn how to deal with society in a healthy and productive way (which is the healthy and right situation to aim at, I'm not really buying the "what if they don't wanna!" arguments on this) to either learn like we ALL have to, or stay out of the public they're apparantly rejecting.

Then there's a tiny part of me that says "Bah... if they don't get out somehow, they won't even get the relatively tiny satisfaction of meeting some anime girl that's equally if not more obsessed than they are, and even if it's not the best situation at least it's -something-." This line of thought basically comes out of a part of me that -knows- that the obsessed freaks usually tend to STAY obsessed freaks, and that baby-steps are better than sitting in your parents' basement at 35 doodling in a sketchbook.

Thoughts?

[CNagy]

Everyone in this thread seems to be confirming my assumption that even the people within the range of 'normal' in the anime fandom world refuse to criticize the people that go overboard. You're all defending anime fans who are freaks, and you refuse to state that it's freakish and unhealthy.

It is unhealthy to be a shut in. Is it really that hard to agree with that comment? If this were leprechauns this thread would have been 5 posts. Because it's anime, you all want to argue.

Silliness.

I have refused to criticise the people who go overboard up until now because I rather hoped it went without saying (and repeating, and repeating) that those kinds of tendencies (when applied to any hobby) are bad. I believe what alot of people are taking issue with is the unspoken (or spoken, I might have missed it) belief that has been expressed that a majority of anime fans are freaks, that anime clubs are freakish cults, that anime conventions are freak hotspots (they can be, but that kind of generalization is usually false,) etc, etc. I've seen one person take the route of "even if it is unhealthy, it is their life," I've seen no one else defend it.

[h2orowe]

It is unhealthy if they are social shutouts.
Still, they should get help, instead of just being poked and made fun of for being freaks.

[kitsunepixie]

Cosplay otaku tend to be completely different beasts than the average anime otaku...dressing up as an anime/game character is many times more about the cosplayer's histrionic tendency to crave attention than having an interest or anime.

[Arkan]

Ok this really has gone on long enough. Also before argueing about the topic I suggest to read up on it. It seems the debate lead towards society, norms, mores and the like. I agree with the Fou guy. I'm afraid the other guy was unimformed or failed SAP.

I still stand about my previous statement and charisma versus factual knowledge.

On a lighter note I'm going to Toronto this Sunday to check out all the universities at the convention. Waterloo made a strong apeal to me but I'd still like to hear UofT's case.

[stsparky]

Bah! I have you all beat. There's only one über-fan greater than I - that would be Fred Patton. I had dinner with Osamu Tezuka with a small band of C/FO geeks in 1981 and whistled the 'Astro Boy Theme' for my meal to his great pleasure. Bow down weaklings!

I'm also mostly normal - Sparky

[B MacD]

Ok this really has gone on long enough. Also before argueing about the topic I suggest to read up on it. It seems the debate lead towards society, norms, mores and the like. I agree with the Fou guy. I'm afraid the other guy was unimformed or failed SAP.

I still stand about my previous statement and charisma versus factual knowledge.

On a lighter note I'm going to Toronto this Sunday to check out all the universities at the convention. Waterloo made a strong apeal to me but I'd still like to hear UofT's case.

If you're thinking undergrad, Queens might be worth hearing out too. Or have you thought about Mount Allision or Saint FX? (both in the Maritimes). I actually want to Saint FX. Its a good school, and both it and Mount A consistently rank as the top 2 undergrad schools in the country.

[Arkan]

Queens is a good medical school. And my father is pushing me towards medicine. But I have no interest in the depressed underappreciated life of a pharmacist or over worked doctor.

Thank god for my understanding mother. I want to get into Aerospace and Phsycology as a minor.

[Ceirnian]

So what if I had an interest in Japan before I started watching anime? Because my interest in anime was spurred on by the interest in Japan. Would I still be considered a freak? I find myself in a growing number of what is becoming known as the "anime moms". I wear my tight ass jeans, 4" heels, a push-up bra and my Inuyasha t-shirt and go shopping at the comic store to buy the latest volume of Bleach or FMA. Does that still qualify me as a freak? I watch anime alot and read manga. I "fan girl" over the characters because they're funny or interesting and talk to my friends about it too.
Seriously, does that make me a freak? I don't really care if does, but I'm just curious.
I think any obsession as long as it's not hurting anyone is fine. Some people need that escapeism to get by in life once in a while. If they're not hurting anyone or themselves, let them be.

They are hurting me through annoyance.

Seriously though, the point that was made throughout this post is that the freaks -are- hurting themselves. Being a social shut-in anime 'otaku' is not a good thing. That said...

Do you talk about/watch anime a vast majority of your time?
Do you shower?
Do you spend a large percentage of your money on anime / anime accessories?
Are you a self proclaimed 'otaku'?
Do you use japanese words you've heard from anime and use them, even though you don't know what the hell they mean?

As for cosplaying, I don't see a problem with it when people do it just for fun. If someone wants to dress up as their favorite character I say go for it*. It's when they start acting like an anime freak that I draw the line. Also, fat girls + skimpy cosplay = very no.


*I think it's kinda stupid if you dress up as someone you look nothing like.

[Arkan]

Shit I've caused a war. I will help out the anine fans with one thing. I never said I didn't read any mangas or watch any anime, just there are boundries I never crossed. Anyway here are some sites you can go to instead of buying them...Uhh don't ask if it's legal or not. Some are (if it's not licened in north america) and others arn't. It's up to you


http://manga.anime-source.com/manga/index.php

http://animewaves.net/index.php?page=awircguide

http://animesuki.com/

http://www.muffindomain.com/index.php?page=anime.html

http://www.tokyotosho.com/search.php

Here's my gift to you guys after some people called you freaks.

[WesternChai]

I think the problem I'm having with this discussion is that the word "obsession" keeps being thrown out a bit too freely. Exactly what constitutes as obsession? From what I've read in this thread, it seems like many us have different perceptions of what an obsessed anime fan really is.

I love anime. I buy the DVDs, I buy the little toys and plushies, I read the manga, I read the fan fiction, I download the fan-subs, I read the magazines, and I go to conventions. The only thing I haven't done yet is cosplay and that’s only because I can’t sew worth a crap.

I've been an active fan of anime since I was twelve but I’ve watched it for even longer. Voltron, Speed Racer, Battle of the Planets, even a kiddy show called Maya the Bee. Yeah, I watched all of that when I was five. I’m an art major now and plan on working in animation after I graduate. To say that anime has had an influence on me would be an understatement. But am I obsessed? Maybe even a freak?

Some of you may be rolling your eyes at this point, but wait a second.

I can honestly say that no, I’m not obsessed. The difference between myself and these “anime freaks” (which, like cnagy, I’ve have never come across. I’m going to have to take your word on it that they exist) is that I don’t limit myself to just anime and manga. I don’t shut my self off from everything but anime. I’m interested in a ton of other things as well. Anime is only one of my interests. Yeah, it’s a big one but there’s definitely more to me than that.

But if you are shutting out the world and limiting your self only to anime and manga and nothing else, then that could turn into a real problem. If anime is your whole world, then yes, THAT’S obsession. And if your obsession inhibits your ability to act in a social environment outside of the fandom then yeah, it CAN be harmful.

God, what a first post. I hope I actually made sense in all that.

[Elin]

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing that, because it's fucking spot-on. If a guy was sitting around and revolving his life around a belief that he could find a pot at the end of the rainbow, watched Lucky Charms ads and other leprechaun media all day, dressed in a little green suit and dyed his beard red, we'd think he was absolutely insane. If his entire group of friends were people who shared an interest in leprechauns (perhaps kids whose favourite cereal is Lucky Charms), then the same people defending anime fans would think the guy should be committed.

Hm, when reading this I couldn't help but think of mainstream religion. Heck you drew the comparison yourself later in your post where you said that comparable bodies were cults and miltia (organised religion essentially being a widely accepted cult, albeit with some mostly harmless beliefs). I don't have anything against Christianity in particular, but I will simply take it as an example as it is the religion that I am best acquanited with (having been raised Protestant, and having remained so until the age of eleven).

Let's assume for a moment that God does not exist. And, honestly, is there really any more proof for his existence than there is for that of Leprechauns? There's more people who believe in God, granted, but just because a lot of people believe that something is true does not necessarily make it true. If God doesn't exist, then what seperates Christians from those who believe in Leprechauns?

Christians dedicate their lives to God, to the teachings of a book that may or may not be truth. They gather every Sunday in a building with like minded people to celebrate and consolidate their belief. (In some cases they won't take steps outside said groups either; a Christian friend of mine has stated that he would not marry a non-Christian under any circumstance). They live every aspect of their lives according to their beliefs (assuming, again, that God does not exist, they also pray to something that is not there and convince themselves that their prayers are heard). They envy and strive to be like those who are 'closer to God' than they are (much like anime fans, it's the most obsessive that are the most enviable). And, in extremities, their beliefs can cause harm to others. Just as someone who loses touch with reality through media could decapitate someone with a samurai sword, so too could an overly fanatical Christian kill another in God's name.

I'm not arguing that those who are fanatical to the point where it is damaging to others ought to be tolerated. If someone is unhinged to the point where they pose a threat to those around them, then said threat should be remedied by whatever means necessary. That applies whether said person is an obsessed Final Fantasy VII fan who is convinced that 'they have been chosen to inherit the planet' or whether they are a soccer hooligan who loses it every time their team loses and gets into brawls with fans of the opposing team. You have my full agreement that obsession should not be tolerated when it poses a risk to others. The fact is that I don't think conventions are damaging to those there; in fact, I think it does the people there a lot of good to socialise with like minded people, it boosts self-confidence, something which said people are often really lacking. I'd say that's healthy, rather than your own idea of forcing them to a regular standard of socialising and probably doing them more harm than good.

I simply cannot agree that those who are socially 'acceptable' have the right to brand others 'freaks' simply because of the fact that what they choose to dedicate their life to is not a social norm. What's worse is that you seem to reject these people banding together altogether, you suggest that they should try and fit their own lives into your perception of what is 'normal' and ignore what they're actually interested in, rather than meeting and interacting with like-minded people.

The fact is that many of these people, myself included, are the sorts of people that have felt miserable for practically their entire lives from trying to 'fit in' with social norms. Heck being forced into that sort of environment for six years of secondary school did more damage to me mentally than my over-infatuation with fantasy ever did, my latter years of high school were spent on mild anti-depressants, and I had regular appointments with the school counselor. I'm only now beginning to realise that I was an idiot to try and change in the first place, and that I really ought to have been honest with myself from the beginning. Which is why I find your view of the world's social order so personally offensive.

It's a fact of life that some people simply aren't normal. Some people don't conform to 'normal' standards, have 'normal' interests or desire 'normal' social relationships. Thus, had you used the word 'freak' in a neutral sense, I wouldn't have felt it necessary to argue. There's certainly people who live their lives in a very different manner from the masses. It's the fact that your words had so much venom in them, such blatant implications that these people are not only different but inferior for living their lives as they do. I won't try and defend the fact that I'm a strange, sad little person, but I will certainly defend myself if someone thinks themself above me as a result.

Assuming that you don't hurt anyone else through your obsession, and that the subject of your obsession is neither harming you physically nor making you unhappy, what's wrong with being obsessed with something? So what if it consumes your life? You might not be comfortable with the idea of reaching sixty or seventy and realising that you have nothing to show for your life, but some people *are* comfortable with it. Some people thrive on order and balance, heck there's plenty of people out there (myself included) who simply don't set their goals very high; I'd be about as happy as I could be if I were just to live the way that I am living now for the rest of my days. Socialising doesn't make me comfortable, it never has. But I can socialise enough to hold down a job, enough to make enough money to keep myself alive, and enough to finance a lifestyle that I find pleasant. I'm not hurting anyone, so why should I change to please others?

I don't want to be famous. I don't want to be successful either, I only need enough money to finance my very low-key lifestyle. Heck I don't even want to get married, inflicting myself upon someone that I cared about that much is a thought that I find extremely upsetting. I'd be a terrible parent, so kids are out. And I don't make friends easily, nor do I feel very comfortable around others. So what's left? Only the matter of finding something to pass the days.

You say that it's not healthy for these people to lock themselves away from the world and avoid social interaction. But I think it's important to draw a distinction: being alone isn't unhealthy, everyone wants to be alone sometimes, some more than others. The feeling of loneliness, however, is unhealthy. Craving social contact while alone eats away at you. If said people choose to shut themselves away from the world, if they choose to be alone, then I doubt that that loneliness is really there. And thus I don't see a problem. I know that I am pretty much alone, but I almost never feel lonely.

Anyway, excuse the length of this, as well as the lack of grammar, spelling and coherency. I'm tired. But it was a topic that I felt compelled to say a few things on since it is one that is quite close to home for me. I'm not an obsessive anime fan (though I do enjoy anime), but I am an obsessive fan of fantasy; I've spent almost my entire life reading, watching films and playing games in an effort to detach from the real world. And I'm quite happy in doing so, so it really irritates me when someone suggests that I need 'help' or that I need to change my lifestyle to something more 'normal'.

[Samwise]

It's time for everyone TO SMELL
















WHAT THE ROCK














IS COOKING:

http://www.snichol.freeserve.co.uk/rock.jpg

Pain, mostly.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Save that religion in general is not a monolithic entity, and there's a boatload of difference between 'Christianity' and cults. Cults are the type that are convinced there's an alien spaceship behind Hale-Bopp comet, and kill themselves with poison Kool-aid. Cults are the type that convince their members that it's God's will to put sarin gas in the Tokyo subways. Cults are the type that convince their members to blow themselves up to be greeted by 70 virgins in heaven.

That is NOT mainstream religion, just as hooliganism is not mainstream in the realm of sports fans. I've stated that there's no problem with having a hobby which is out of the mainstream, so long as it isn't done to the exclusion of all others. There is no problem with believing in God, but there is a problem in believing in a person's interpretation of God in conflict with all social norms which makes you do bad things to the rest of the populace.

Sure, the Hale-Bopp folk didn't hurt anyone but themselves, but that doesn't make it okay, or a good thing.

You assume that I have no experience with being outside social norms. That's a rather batty thing. There is no such thing as 'Joe Average' and everyone has kinks that are outside the norm. Everyone. That, believe it or not, includes me. Does that mean I should compromise the things that I believe in that are outside of the norm? Should I become a Republican or a Democrat because those are more 'normal' than my brand of libertarianism? Of course not. Then again I'm not joining an anti-government militia or seeking to secede from the Union.

Having characteristics that are outside the norm is rather normal. Having them consume you and become your norm, rather than acknowledging them as things out of the norm which could interfere with how you function in society is NOT healthy. As much as you may claim you hate socializing, blah blah blah, humans are social animals, and it is very abnormal not to feel that desire to be social. You SHOULD try to change that, because it will impact your life, and is NOT healthy psychologically. Sure it may be easier, but that doesn't make it better.

Continue with your fantasy hobby. Continue reading books in your free time, and continue watching the films and playing games. But also continue seeing a counselor of some sort, because believe it or not, what you're doing isn't healthy, and there's a good reason that they were giving you counselling and prescribing drugs.

You may despise me and what I stand for, but that's because you're irrationally taking this personally, as if I am saying you're a bad person. That would be attaching a moral judgement to what is likely a psychological ailment. I don't do that. What I am saying is that it's unhealthy, and that people promoting that behaviour, like those promoting cults, are in the wrong and causing harm.

Get help.

[Arkan]

Save that religion in general is not a monolithic entity, and there's a boatload of difference between 'Christianity' and cults. Cults are the type that are convinced there's an alien spaceship behind Hale-Bopp comet, and kill themselves with poison Kool-aid.


Not true. The UN defines any religion as an advent belief to philosophy of human nature. The only requirment to any religion before it can be deemed one under legal laws are the numbers of the followers. I believe the cut off is 10,000. If you can patition a list of 10,000 people and go through necessary court, it's a religion. There's a very fine line between cult and religion, just because more people believe in one doesn't make it necessarily correct. Mass hysteria is also commonly connected with religion (a good example is when there was a siting of the virgen mary in the clouds and many could attest to it).

Fun Fact: Did you know when a survey was done in Austraila over the religious belief of the citizens one of the religions that had more than 10,000 members was "Jedi Force". Many people put that as their answer, It may even be recognized as a full fledge religion don't know if anyone actually went to court to make it so.

[Pierrot le Fou]

What are you on about? How is what I said 'not true?'

Is religion a monolithic entity? No. There are Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Pagans, and Hindus, and within those religions, there are sects up the wazoo. There is nothing monolithic about religion.

Is there little or no difference between Christianity and cults? No. There is a huge difference. A cult is generally a microcosm of a sect of an established religion, or a tiny group of people who form a non-standard religion. For instance, many of the terrorists who practice extreme Islam are a subset of Wahabism which is a subset of Islam, which makes it quite different from Islam, in the same way there is a boatload of difference between Christianity and David Koresh's cult.

Are cults NOT more likely than mainstream religion to advocate to their followers to do things well outside the realm of rational action? No. Mainstream religion, being followed by a large group of people, requires itself to stay at least semi-related to reality, lest it lose its followers. Look at any major religion. Orthodox Judaism is a miniscule 6% of the Jewish population. Hasidism is even smaller. And a good portion of Orthodox Jews were simply born into that tradition, and don't actually follow all its dictums. The more absurd the demands on the people who follow the religion, the less popular it becomes.

This is all common sense.

Comparing a bunch of people personally deciding that the Virgin Mary is around in clouds, a window, a potato, or a cookie, and the Hale-Bopp people who killed themselves with Kool-aid to join with a spaceship hiding behind a comet is ridiculous. One was a bunch of individuals with the same belief system deciding to believe something on its own merits in regard to their belief system. One was a handful of individuals told that this was the only way to fulfill their duty to the cult.

I get it. You hate religion. Swell. Good for you. Give yourself a pat on the back. However, comparing cults and religion on the whole is just lame. Especially if you expect to be taken seriously by anyone who doesn't agree with you from before they read your message.

[Scott]

Off-topic, but I don't suppose the original poster could edit his original topic to be spelled correctly - "Invasion"? While there may or may not be in Asian Invasion, Engrish isn't one of the things we need coming in - America's English is bad enough.

Or maybe I'm just an oversensitive jerk.

[stsparky]

Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-2-1798944-2,00.html)
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.
According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.
The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.
It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.
Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.
The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world.
“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.
“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”
Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions.
He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy.
The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from “ uniquely high” adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested.
Mr Paul said: “The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America.”
He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion, he added.
Mr Paul delayed releasing the study until now because of Hurricane Katrina. He said that the evidence accumulated by a number of different studies suggested that religion might actually contribute to social ills. “I suspect that Europeans are increasingly repelled by the poor societal performance of the Christian states,” he added.
He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said.
“The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.
“The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.”
-------------------------------

But you shouldn't taunt kids in the short bus ...

[more cheerios]

Yes, common sense also states that not every theoretical study is divine truth. You should know that by now. If one took every single study based on theory as truth, one would be a very messed up individual.

[okita]

I'll add my two cents since just about everyone else is.

Anyways, I wonder if anyone reads nowadays?
What Pierrot Le Fou is talking about when he says that anime fans are 'Freaks'.
If you read his first post, it's talking about the extreme anime fans, the ones that make this hobby an obsession. Maybe it was his lack of clarification? I don't know for sure, but people seem to take it that way.

I guess my only problem with this grouping anime fans into this, is this:

Anime fans are given this stigma of being unclean, anti-shower, anti-social freaks. I don't have the figures to prove or unprove this. However, these stereotypes are true for most of the extreme anime fans. However, who can give a figure for how many 'extreme' fans there are and how many 'casual' fans there are?

I remember him comparing this to sports fanatics.
I mean you say that sports fanatics aren't grouped into this particular 'freak' category because sports are mainstream. I mean, that's the main problem with this 'normal' and 'weird' division. With anime fans, the extremes are taken as the normal anime fans, while sports fan don't get this extreme stereotype. Even though they're guilty of the same. I mean, I can remember during the World Cups, when Japan had lost. A whole bunch of people started to jump off a bridge to show their disappointment. Now those may be just extreme fans, but just because it's mainstream does it get a seal of approval? Hell no, those people are just as crazy as any anime fan. They're just shown in the better light.

Another point you made was about 'checks' that sports fans have that anime fans don't. While for most part you're right. But wrong in the fact, that there are checks for this. Most casual anime fans will let people know they're acting weird. It's more lax, but take for example this website. Azrael's stories, which should be an example. Take for instance "The Kancho", I remember reading a few weeks back about people talking about conventions and random Kancho assassins. Now I would take it from reading Az's stories that, that type of crap is just not normal for American culture. Maybe in Japan, they've grown used to it, but in America that doesn't fly. I'll let the first who Kancho's me know that too.

Maybe not Pierrot in general, but someone mentioned some stuff about anime forums nowadays and how crazy they've gotten. One I remember distinctly is someone mentioning how the a question like, "How much anime have you seen ?" and how this just becomes a big contest. Now I'm not going to lie, I've posted on those before. I've seen a lot of anime. I've been watching for 19 years and have seen a diverse amount of anime. Anything wrong with telling the truth? This than goes the next point, how some topics are like this, "What anime char. would you marry?" "Who's the hottest?" """" you get the point. I mean, I could try to defend this but what's the point? This is the internet, a lot of people are just going to post a lot of random crap that they wouldn't say in public. That's why topics like that can be created. I mean, they may seem weird to you, but hey whatever. Those are still outlets for some people. I mean, some may seem over-zealous, but they're just doing what they can say in the comfort of their own home in anonymity.

The only problem is discerning the extreme to non-extreme.

[Chinpokomon]

There are lots of things that people get fanatic about that I will never understand.

Sports
Religion
Jewelry
Cars
Brand names

They are all mainstream, so even those that go off the deep end are tolerated, or even admired (*bling* *bling*)

There are a number of non-mainstream hobbies which have stigmas attached to them
anime/manga
Witchcraft
Heavy metal
Star Trek/Star Wars,
etc.

There are also a number of non-mainstream hobbies which don't have stigmas:
Scuba diving
Crossword puzzles
Wine collection
Classical music
Bowling

Maybe the thing that gives a hobby its stigma is that in extreme cases you have to alter your appearance to fit in. :confused:

[CNagy]

I personally propose that all anime fans react severely to the slightest mention of their possibly being freaks. Specifically, when this occurs around you, you need to bum rush the person responsible and scream "Take a sniff motherfucker! I smell like an Irish Spring!" Take this opportunity to plant some Yu-Gi-Oh cards onto the offender, and then take them out and go "What the hell? You damn hypocrite, take a fuckin shower, freak!"

[Arkan]

Comparing a bunch of people personally deciding that the Virgin Mary is around in clouds, a window, a potato, or a cookie, and the Hale-Bopp people who killed themselves with Kool-aid to join with a spaceship hiding behind a comet is ridiculous.....

I get it. You hate religion. Swell. Good for you. Give yourself a pat on the back. However, comparing cults and religion on the whole is just lame. Especially if you expect to be taken seriously by anyone who doesn't agree with you from before they read your message.

Omg stop ranting. Please don't say such childish things. First off you're incorrect about mass illusion and social phsycology. Humans behave differently in mass numbers. It is a studied fact that there ARE mass hysteria concerning religious tokens and symbols. Religion to a large dagree is the perception of a philosophy. There ARE recorded studies of MASS crowds acting out of the norm and behave in an unpredictable, unacceptle manner by the laws of any society. It's not the least bit ridiculous of studying religions as a mass cult as they DO possess many of the same traits. MASS self illusion, denial, faith, nationalism (and don't even bs about how nationalism doesn't affect religion because you'd be a total dumbfuck if you did, Humans have had wars in the same religion but different races).

On second note I take offence that you'd think I hate religion. Seeing as I'm a muslim and have faith in Islam. You shouldn't speak unless you know all the facts. You're an intelligent man but you attack the speaker rather than attack the logic, that my friend is an "ad hominem"

"An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument."

"However, comparing cults and religion on the whole is just lame." Again you can't use this as an argument, this is your opinion.

"Is there little or no difference between Christianity and cults? No. There is a huge difference. A cult is generally a microcosm of a sect of an established religion, or a tiny group of people who form a non-standard religion. For instance, many of the terrorists who practice extreme Islam are a subset of Wahabism which is a subset of Islam, which makes it quite different from Islam, in the same way there is a boatload of difference between Christianity and David Koresh's cult."

Again a comparison is NOT to prove that a cult and religion are exactly the same. The comparison shows their similarities. Of course they have differences. Stateting one obvious one doesn't significantly prove anything. There are more likes between the two behaviours then there are dislikes. There have even been suicides and sacrifices in religion. Whether those deaths were for the applease of a god or for the cause of a twisted individual is irrelevant. It's all perception. Each death to each different person can be baised on different logic.

[Pierrot le Fou]

You stated that the obvious things I stated were 'not true' and discussed religion as a giant cult.

Mass hysteria can happen with or without religion. 99.9999% of the time, religious services don't result in mass hysteria. And most of the time someone sees the Virgin Mary in something, people don't go rushing off en masse to see it.

The comparison between cults and religion is like the comparison between skydiving without a parachute, and skydiving with a parachute. They both have a chance of death, and a chance of success. But suggesting that skydiving with a parachute is just like skydiving without a parachute -- only several degrees safer -- is to ignore that the degree to which they are different more than makes up for the similarities in the two activities.

While I'm sure there are occasions where a group of assembled Unitarian Universalists had some mass delusion or somesuch, to suggest that it's even in the same LEAGUE as hardcore cultish religion is baffling to me. Constant daily hyeria versus a small handful of cases of hysteria over a FAR larger group of people makes it as different as wearing a parachute or not.

[Aria]

Totally off topic but partially related. I like anime, but not enough to like...stop my life for it. So it's nice when I go to big ass lectures and the kid in front of me has brought his laptop and is watching subbed anime on it instead of listening to lecture. :-P I get a free show and I can still say I went to class. :p

[Arkan]

In my opinion (this is off the argument) religion movements have done much worse things than some seculiar cult has. I mean the spanish expansion into south america, the "holy" crusades, the numerous Genocides. Don't tell me this isn't mass hysteria and delusion. People have been raised and taught that one religion is better than the other in many areas. THIS is forced illusion, mass hysteria and nationality invoked.

A better example than the parachute one is a man with a boat and a man with a yacht. They both float on many of the same fundemental self delusions, hypocrocy and self perception. Whether you're on the yacht with hundreds or on the boat with a couple of individuals you're both essentially floating on the same thing. Religion and cults are the flotation devices and the water are the fundamentals of them. Of course it can be also described as two men having a gun. One man might use it for evil and robbery while the other would rather not use it unless to protect himself. NOT all cults are bad, NOT all religions are good. The world isn't black or white it's grey.

On the note about fanatic actions regarding anime and even music to a degree. Well yes it annoys me, but it's pop culture. No one can escape the influence of culture unless you're a hermit off by yourself.

Humans are hypocrites by nature. Nothing can be explained with the simple title of bad or good. I didn't mean for my comment to go this far. It was a single peeve.

[Aria]

In my opinion (this is off the argument) religion movements have done much worse things than some seculiar cult has. I mean the spanish expansion into south america, the "holy" crusades, the numerous Genocides. Don't tell me this isn't mass hysteria and delusion. People have been raised and taught that one religion is better than the other in many areas. THIS is forced illusion, mass hysteria and nationality invoked.

A better example than the parachute one is a man with a boat and a man with a yacht. They both float on many of the same fundemental self delusions, hypocrocy and self perception. Whether you're on the yacht with hundreds or on the boat with a couple of individuals you're both essentially floating on the same thing. Religion and cults are the flotation devices and the water are the fundamentals of them. Of course it can be also described as two men having a gun. One man might use it for evil and robbery while the other would rather not use it unless to protect himself. NOT all cults are bad, NOT all religions are good. The world isn't black or white it's grey.


"There are a lot of long words in there, Miss[sir]; we're naught but humble pirates."

I feel that accurately portrays my level of understanding (or lack thereof) of most of your example.

[Pierrot le Fou]

Okay, your comparison blows. You're taking a far bigger population (people who are vaguely associated with religion) and attributing anything they do to religion (the crusades were about as much about religion as WWI was about Francis Ferdinand being assassinated). Furthermore, you're comparing the amount of bad things that were done by the vaguely religious, with those of cults. There are far fewer cults. It's an unfair comparison in terms of scope, as well as cause.

[Arkan]

. You're taking a far bigger population (people who are vaguely associated with religion) and attributing anything they do to religion (the crusades were about as much about religion as WWI was about Francis Ferdinand being assassinated). cause.

I will agree that the whole cause behind the spanish advance into south america or the christians into the middles east isn't solely for religion. But you'd be an idiot to not regard the religious motives behind them. Yes I know that there was power struggles and even devilish motives for the crusades (look at the childrens crusade, they were sold out to slavery before they got to the middle east). But how can you say that they were VAGUELY associated with relgion, to the masses they were backed up by the sole reason of religion. Ever heard of heavens mandate? People often and still do believe in that. Vaguely was a wrong word to use. IF you think that there were no mass religion movements that were accompinied by self rightous self delusional leaders and soldiers then you're pretty dunce. I mean even the foundation of islam was through war. You think every race in the middle east accepted the islam teaching with open hands?

. Furthermore, you're comparing the amount of bad things that were done by the vaguely religious, with those of cults. There are far fewer cults.

Population in this matter is irrelivent. We're disscussing movement and state of mind. Wether there are more or less cults doesn't mean anything on the discusison of events that were lead by a single man. The pope initiated the crusades. The catylist for many religious movements were often a single man.

The act to murder a child for the sake conversion, or for the sake unification by some leader loone who thinks that a group suicide will achieve something is independent on population. Both happened, both under justified logic of the participants.

Again my friend your logic is flawd.

[Pierrot le Fou]

You're blaming the assassination of Francis Ferdinand for WWI. There were so many causes to these events beyond religion. Religion may have been a justification, but the groundwork had already been laid well beyond religion's bounds.

[Arkan]

Again my friend, order of motives doesn't apply and is irrelevent, it's the major motive that does. It doesn't matter that religion wasn't the first "groundwork" cause. If it becomes the major one (which it does in my examples) then that supports my argument. Also we're getting off topic. The cause can even be void in this argument.

It doesn't matter whether the intentions are good or bad. The result is the same. Like I previously stated whether doing it for the logic that it's gods will or for the lack of "sane" logic, the final result was still implemented.

I won't use the clichè "does the ends justify the ends".

[Pierrot le Fou]

So you see no difference between, "We hate Jews for reason x y z, but if we invoke the name of God in killing them, then we can pretend it's religions fault if it all goes to shit" and "We will kill ourselves to unite with aliens?"

They're quite different things.

Cults use 'religion' as the reason, the cause, and everything else, 'holy wars' have typically used religion as the reason, when the cause was something entirely separate, and the goal had very little to do with religion.

[spaik]

This thread is so entertaining, and yet so frustrating at the same time.

See, I like my manga and anime. When I first got to my university, I joined the anime club. Met some cool people, who were actually quite social and outgoing. We had normal socials, going out for food or having potluck dinners. Nothing anime related most of the time. Watched movies, normal ones. We also have weekly anime showing using some of the lecture theaters. Good stuff. We'd sit around, watch anime, whatever. It was a different social atmosphere back then when I was a really active member. We'd run a few events, make some money for the Food Bank, go out, have fun, play some games, whatever. We'd go to conventions and stuff, hang out with some people and stuff.

Somehow, over the 5 years in university, something changed in the fandom. Now, the club is run by the younger crowd. The obsessive part of fan culture is there. They glorify their obsessions, and bask in it. The fandom is all about obsession and deviance. What changed? The con-kiddies that go around screaming and flipping out at everything has become the norm for the fandom. I mean, sure, there were maladjusted people before, too, particularly in the local anime clubs that were not formed from students from an educational institution. However, it was never the case that people who live their entire lives around this stuff was the norm.

The members of the club nowadays are so socially maladjusted, its surprising. Even within the fandom, there's elitism and even isolation from parts of the fandom itself. These kids are so narrowminded and streamlined by the overbearing nature of the fandom its disgusting. I mean, I'm also a Computing Science major. I was part of the CompSci Student Society. I thought that the amount of intellectual egotism and socially ineptitude found there couldn't be topped. I found out I was wrong.

Don't get me wrong, they are some good kids, and really, they aren't there to hurt anyone. They have their hobby and want to run around enjoying it. Unfortunately, they do end up hurting people with their lack of social grace and their own isolation from the world.

The problem with the fandom is that it promotes this in every way. The entire fandom is about obsession, and more is better. The really fucked up and creepy ones? Even then, no one says shit about it, other than maybe some offhand comment or something. Either that, or they think, "Well, who am I to say that when I'm just as weird in my own way, I guess."

It's becoming more and more pronounced with each generation of new fans. Every year that passes, I can't stand it. I've even stopped working at a convention that raises money for the Food Bank, just because I can't stand the culture of fandom anymore. I've been watching the fandom slowly de-evolving into some crazy multiheaded beast, with each of the factions within biting and clawing at each other, trying to achieve some sort of superiority over the general fandom with their obsession, and seriously (though I don't know if its not partially because of the latest generation being much more socially inept than previous generations due to such things as the Internet and stuff and a lack of emphasis on social skills during both school and life) these people have zero people skills at all. These people lack empathy and a knowledge of culture, probably the two most important elements in dealing with people. If you have been involved in it, and for over 5 years, and you don't think that somewhere, something is going very very wrong with the fandom, you have issues yourself and need to take a step back and see just where you are putting this in your life.

I don't mind the kids dressing up. I admit it, I like handicrafts. I like to sew, which tends to be rare for a guy. I help my mom make handsewn quilts. I made a little carry pouch for my Zippo out of some jean scraps and some thread while I was bored recently. I like to make stuff with my hands, whether its models or the like. I don't think costuming is that bad at all. But there is a line between making a costume to wear cause you think it looks cool, and/or because you like the character, compared to making a costume because you have to 'represent'. Because you have some sort of image or rep as a cosplayer that you need to keep up. Or because you want to be that character.

How is it that these kids see some guy in a costume of their favorite character and run screaming at him, and jump and fawn over him and give him a hug and stuff? Seriously, have these people never heard of the concept of personal space and privacy? Do you normally have random people asking you for hugs because of something you made or wear? Some don't even ask. And this is ok? These people fucking creep me the fuck out.

It's not even an issue of how much you watch or know about the stuff, either. Hell, I have seen so many shows, from every imaginable genre, and know some pretty esoteric stuff about them. Shit, doesn't mean my life revolves around it, even if I spend a lot of time with it. Hell, you can spend just 1 hour a day indulging in your hobby, but still be an obsessive freak over it.

Maybe you guys don't think the fandom is wrong because it's always been this way for you. You've been told that this is what the fandom is. This is what being a fan is. Obsession, details, what you've seen, what you like. You know that liking anime isn't 'normal' in the first place, so you expected that the fandom is a bit weird as well and that it's just a part of it. Sorry, but just because the subject is 'weird' doesn't mean its ok for the people to be too. The fandom is out of hand and the people who are caught up in it in full have problems.

Hell, I think the anime fandom is more wacked out than even LARPers are, and that's saying something...

[CNagy]

Maybe you guys don't think the fandom is wrong because it's always been this way for you. You've been told that this is what the fandom is. This is what being a fan is. Obsession, details, what you've seen, what you like. You know that liking anime isn't 'normal' in the first place, so you expected that the fandom is a bit weird as well and that it's just a part of it. Sorry, but just because the subject is 'weird' doesn't mean its ok for the people to be too. The fandom is out of hand and the people who are caught up in it in full have problems.

Hell, I think the anime fandom is more wacked out than even LARPers are, and that's saying something...
No, I don't think the fandom is wrong because I have never encountered most of the things that you are talking about, and when I have it has been in extremely limited numbers. Conventions are pretty much the only place I've seen rabid fandom, but isn't that something to expect from a venue that, by its very nature, is going to pull the hardcore and casual fan alike?

I will give you this much, that whole tackle hug thing can be creepy. It unfortunately seems to come with the teritory of cosplay.

[spaik]

I wouldn't consider it limited numbers at all. Anime fandom has a disproportionate number of crazies to normal people when compared to other hobbies such as sports or cars. You can go to a car convention and not expect a pile of rabid crazies. Try the same at an anime convention and see how far you get. The ONLY part of the fandom that is glorified is obsession. Obsession is a GOOD thing in the fandom, and it is destroying it over time, because it is a self-reenforcing concept. If you think that isn't wrong, then there's really nothing more that I can do.

[Daishikaze]

Spaik is right, I have seen way too much of this BS and I just don't understand how it all started.

[CNagy]

I wouldn't consider it limited numbers at all. Anime fandom has a disproportionate number of crazies to normal people when compared to other hobbies such as sports or cars. You can go to a car convention and not expect a pile of rabid crazies. Try the same at an anime convention and see how far you get. The ONLY part of the fandom that is glorified is obsession. Obsession is a GOOD thing in the fandom, and it is destroying it over time, because it is a self-reenforcing concept. If you think that isn't wrong, then there's really nothing more that I can do.

Do you have statistics? Studies? Any actual numbers? What we have here is you saying that fandom is mostly crazy based on your experiences, and me saying the exact opposite based on my experiences. The only difference is that while I am allowing for the fact that my experiences might be on one end of an extreme, you take your own extreme experiences and claim that it is the way of things. If you want to state these things as the truth, please back it up with something other than "I've seen" and "I've experienced."

[Arkan]

So you see no difference between, "We hate Jews for reason x y z, but if we invoke the name of God in killing them, then we can pretend it's religions fault if it all goes to shit" and "We will kill ourselves to unite with aliens?"


What the hell are you talking about? I'm not putting any blame on religion. I'm just stateing the historical facts. Both cults and religion essentially do the same things. And the phsycological mentality of the participants of both are similiar in some aspects.

What you're doing is trying to put words in my mouth. I've analyzed your argument strategy. You rarely rebute me, rather you just try to twist my words so that it looks like I made an immoral statement.

So far none of your arguments have convinced me that your side of the argument is correct. Rather than always attacking me try to critisize my logic.

Have I ever said that religion is the sole reason for all the massicres and genocides of the past? No I didn't. I just stated historical allusions that was used as fact for my argument.

On the note of Holy Wars using religion as the cause. I'm going to assume you're talking about the crusades. First off you cannot be saying that any JIhad against europe used religion as the cause. Do you even know what Jihad means? It's widely mistaken for "holy war" but that's not essentially what it means. "The term is frequently mistranslated to mean "holy war" in English, although jihad can apply to warfare. Mainstream Muslims consider jihad to be the most misunderstood aspect of their religion by non-Muslims"
A better definition would be "The defence of ones right to religion using physical means"

How can a word meaning "defence of ones religion" not use religion as a reason? Jihad doesn't have any other cause other than religion my friend.

In the argument that participants in religions and cults share the same fundimental phsycological mentallity, I'd have to say I've won this argument. You havn't proven otherwise. It takes a big man to accept that he's lost one argument. I suggest we end the debate unless you can prove the argument on your side.

[CNagy]

I hate stepping into someone else's argument, but the argument in this case is rather moronic. Fundamental psychological mentality? What? That both groups are apt to believe an idea without proof to its validity? That is a really, really fragile foundation to build a "cults and religions are similar" stance.

All oranges are fruits. Not all fruits are oranges. An overly simple way to explain this, but it works. Cults are religious, they are characterized by a near fanatical belief in some part of their religion, in addition to guidance from a typically charismatic leader. They are extremists. That doesn't mean that they share anything more than the most superficial characteristics with mainstream and moderate religion.

[Arkan]

See my argument arn't just that cults are similiar to religions BUT also that a religious person and a person in a cult are both self delusional. My argument inlcudes that both a religious group and a cults members can participate in mass hysteria and often do.

[CNagy]

See my argument arn't just that cults are similiar to religions BUT also that a religious person and a person in a cult are both self delusional. My argument inlcudes that both a religious group and a cults members can participate in mass hysteria and often do.

mass hysteria
n.

A condition in which a large group of people exhibit similar physical or emotional symptoms, such as anxiety or extreme excitement.

This is nothing new to the human condition, and one needs neither be religious or extremist to experience it. While those groups may have increasing occurences of hysteria, respectively, you are making the point that a protein is a nut is a tree without taking scale into consideration.

The idea that both members "often do" is unfounded. One group is characterized by such behaviour, so it is safe to say that they "often do." The other group, religious members, has no such characterization, and to assert that they often engage in mass hysteria is a supposition unsupported by any facts I've seen thusfar.


de·lu·sion
n.

A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness.
Self-delusion

\Self`-de*lu"sion\, n. The act of deluding one's self, or the state of being thus deluded.


Again, this is not restricted to religions or cults. Racism is an example of a false belief in superiority that persists even when science can prove that there is little if any inherent superiority in racial characteristics, and that if there are, they surely don't place white into the superior category.

For someone to be delusional, there has to be irrefutable evidence contrary to their belief. The ideas held by most religions can not be irrefutably disproved. A key difference between a religion and a cult is that if something can be disproved beyond a shadow of doubt, then religious members will generally discard that aspect of their religion.

As an example, according to the Muslim religion a husband's seed can stay with and impregnate his wife for up to 5 years. Modern medicine proves this to be completely false, so when a woman in a Islamic country became pregnant two years after becoming a widow, she was slated to be stoned to death for having sexual relations outside of marriage. An Islamic court overruled the verdict, because of the 5 year clause, but you can't tell me that the people simply accepted that she hadn't had sex outside of marriage. She got off on a loophole, and that was the opinion of many devout followers of Islam.

In a cult, this would be accepted as a matter of course. "One of our principles says it can happen, so it did." Blind acceptance of something that can be obviously and irrefutably disproved is self-delusion, and cults participate in it to an extreme degree.

Once again, we have the idea of a statement that is technically true ("both groups experience self-delusion") while being false in context, since you are trying consider the branch and the great oak as equal on the premise that they are both formed of similar material.

[Arkan]

I agree with the with your last statement regarding that self delusion ins't confined to just those two perviously stated parties. Of course it isn't confined to them.

The original remark that my opponent said was that religion bears no resemblence to cults. Although self delusion, mass hysteria and the like isn't confined to them, I merly stated that one resemblence was the involvement of those aspects in their rituals and governence of everyday life. The key identification isolating that from everyone else is that some of these rituals are against norms. With the weight of societies norms against these participants they still hold a black eye towards the heavy oppositions and delude themselves into thinking they're correct.

The simple result i'm trying to achieve is that the two bear many similarites and can be compared. I believe the other mans quote was under some line as "Comparing religion to cults is ridiculous". I dissagreed. I saw it as comparing apples to oranges. Yes they're different but they're still fruit.

[CNagy]

Without religion, there could be no cults. Without cults, there could still be religion. By definition, they are less apples and oranges and more apples and apple trees. One (religion) can beget the other (cult.) Thus they are not equals, but one is a possible progression of another. One is both the specialization and the amplification of the other. They share basic principles, but principles so basic that they do not belong soley to a given religion and its cult offspring.

[Arkan]

Uhhhh I dissagree with that. I mean Cults can be related to a mainstream religion but often their also the creation of an imbalanced man. Cults and Religions are independent of each other. I don't know where you got one was dependent on the other? If you have an article or some facts, I'd like to read upon it because I was taught otherwise.

[CNagy]

Here is your Oxford dictionary definition of a cult:

cult

• noun 1 a system of religious worship directed towards a particular figure or object. 2 a small religious group regarded as strange or as imposing excessive control over members. 3 something popular or fashionable among a particular section of society.

Note that definition three does not pertain to the cults we've been discussing, but rather the idea of cult culture (i.e. cult followings for popular entertainment.)

[Arkan]

Your stating there would be no cults with the concept of religions being obliterated. Not the destruction of the current religions.

Look up the definition of religious belief. It's simply put the advent and persistant belief of a prospect, philosophy, and/or icon. Without the human ability in religious belief there would be no philosophy, no advancement of the human speices. For religious belief is just a strong belief.

You can't say without the ability to strongly believe in a lifepath there would be no cults. It's like saying you know without water we can't have life.

The comment I made about religion being independet of cults and vice versa was about the religions currently on this planet. Meaning those specific ones. Not the ability to believe. Meaning cults aren't dependent on christainity, islam, the jewish belief and all the others.

Yes EVERYTHING is dependent logical thinking, hope and belief. That's a given. Dont' state the obvious.

[CNagy]

A system of religious belief? That's a religion. A small religious group? Yet again, a religion. By definition, a cult is a religion, but a religion is not a cult. This is not a hard concept to grasp. You cannot have an extremist religious belief without religious beliefs. The very term "extremist" can only be placed in relation to something that has been established. An established religious belief or set of beliefs is a religion, even if that religion is Jedi Knight.

Thus, no, cults are not independent of religion. Cults are very dependent on religion. Cults are, by definition, dependent on religion. The same does not apply vice-versa. Thus, they are not just a couple of fruits; one may be a fruit, but another is that fruit concentrate. Or one is the branch of the other's tree, whichever you want to prefer.

[Arkan]

Again you misunderstand. I DIDN'T SAY THAT CULTS WEREN'T DEPENDENT ON THE CONCEPT OF RELIGION JUST INDEPENDENT ON THE CURRENT RELIGIONS. I thought I made myself clear. The act of believing in a religion is just the rationalization of physics, phscology and socialogy. WITHOUT the ability to think, without the ability to process information then conclude to a result there would be nothing.

Please try to understand me. To believe in a religion is to believe in a any belief that tries to explain reality. Having a strong believe in science can be discussed as a religion. I said CURRENT religion. I thought you were debating that cults depend on christianity or one of the other religions.

[CNagy]

Again you misunderstand. I DIDN'T SAY THAT CULTS WEREN'T DEPENDENT ON THE CONCEPT OF RELIGION JUST INDEPENDENT ON THE CURRENT RELIGIONS. I thought I made myself clear. The act of believing in a religion is just the rationalization of physics, phscology and socialogy. WITHOUT the ability to think, without the ability to process information then conclude to a result there would be nothing.

Please try to understand me. To believe in a religion is to believe in a any belief that tries to explain reality. Having a strong believe in science can be discussed as a religion. I said CURRENT religion. I thought you were debating that cults depend on christianity or one of the other religions.

Edit/
The very term "extremist" can only be placed in relation to something that has been established. An established religious belief or set of beliefs is a religion, even if that religion is Jedi Knight.
You ignored this part of my statement, which removes any doubt that I am referring to actual religions rather than the ability to have religious beliefs.
/EndEdit


And once again, you misunderstand. My ways of explaining this are probably not going to work, but I shall try once more.

What is the difference between a religious belief and a religion? Well, if I explain reality a certain way (to use your example) that is a religious belief; but I am not a religion. Nor, for that matter, are my beliefs. If I convince a number of people to put their faith in my beliefs, then suddenly, we are a religion.

Now, we have a religion. Our beliefs are established, yet in our group there are some who believe that the beliefs mean a certain thing, or they grasp some obscure wording of my original writings and choose to focus on it. Generally, these new interpretations will be contradicted in other areas of my beliefs, but regardless of whether there exists a contradiction or not, over-emphasis on a specific part of my beliefs has made them an extremist sect of our religion. They are a cult.

Christianity is a huge base from which cults form. Some of the more extreme Islamic movements can be considered cults. But major religion does not have to be the base, only established religion. Without an established belief, there cannot be an extremist stance on it. Therefore, cults are dependent on religion, as I've stated time and again. Religion is not interchangable with religious belief.

[Arkan]

I understand what your saying. But that's assuming a cults just a fanatic extreme version of religion. Which I dissagree with, cults are just a unique group outstretching from social norms to a degree where we see it as fantatic behavoir. Their logic is flawd, usualy members of cults are brainwashed. I understand your logic and your perception on how cults are dependent of religion. But our views on cults are different. My view is they're an anomaly to social logic and norms.

Honestly this thread got stupid. I suggest we end it now because we're going to end up on a new topic. Something stupid that can be discussed for a while with no ending like what is normal, or of that like. I aggreed with some of you and dissagree with others.

[CNagy]

My view is their an anomaly to social logic and norms.

Now we get to the root of the problem. You are talking about extreme groups, the classification of a group whose ideals are excessive and lie outside the social norms. Cults belong in the category extreme groups, but some extreme groups (such as a few of the UFO groups) do not fall under any given religion. The word "cult," as applied to any group, has an inherent religious connotation.