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Roxie
01-12-2008, 04:15 PM
NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/04/us/04felony.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=all&adxnnlx=1200154157-qi2um4pUgA7nVwSfrDHEpQ)

December 4, 2007
By ADAM LIPTAK
CRAWFORDVILLE, Fla. — Early in the morning of March 10, 2003, after a raucous party that lasted into the small hours, a groggy and hungover 20-year-old named Ryan Holle lent his Chevrolet Metro to a friend. That decision, prosecutors later said, was tantamount to murder.

The friend used the car to drive three men to the Pensacola home of a marijuana dealer, aiming to steal a safe. The burglary turned violent, and one of the men killed the dealer’s 18-year-old daughter by beating her head in with a shotgun he found in the home.

Mr. Holle was a mile and a half away, but that did not matter.

He was convicted of murder under a distinctively American legal doctrine that makes accomplices as liable as the actual killer for murders committed during felonies like burglaries, rapes and robberies.

Mr. Holle, who had given the police a series of statements in which he seemed to admit knowing about the burglary, was convicted of first-degree murder. He is serving a sentence of life without the possibility of parole at the Wakulla Correctional Institution here, 20 miles southwest of Tallahassee.

A prosecutor explained the theory to the jury at Mr. Holle’s trial in Pensacola in 2004. “No car, no crime,” said the prosecutor, David Rimmer. “No car, no consequences. No car, no murder.”

Most scholars trace the doctrine, which is an aspect of the felony murder rule, to English common law, but Parliament abolished it in 1957. The felony murder rule, which has many variations, generally broadens murder liability for participants in violent felonies in two ways. An unintended killing during a felony is considered murder under the rule. So is, as Mr. Holle learned, a killing by an accomplice.

India and other common law countries have followed England in abolishing the doctrine. In 1990, the Canadian Supreme Court did away with felony murder liability for accomplices, saying it violated “the principle that punishment must be proportionate to the moral blameworthiness of the offender.”

Countries outside the common law tradition agree. “The view in Europe,” said James Q. Whitman, a professor of comparative law at Yale, “is that we hold people responsible for their own acts and not the acts of others.”

But prosecutors and victims’ rights groups in the United States say that punishing accomplices as though they had been the actual killers is perfectly appropriate.

“The felony murder rule serves important interests,” said Mr. Rimmer, the prosecutor in the Holle case, “because it holds all persons responsible for the actions of each other if they are all participating in the same crime.”

Kent Scheidegger, the legal director of the Criminal Justice Legal Foundation, a victims’ rights group, said “all perpetrators of the underlying felony, not just the one who pulls the trigger” should be held accountable for murder.

“A person who has chosen to commit armed robbery, rape or kidnapping has chosen to do something with a strong possibility of causing the death of an innocent person,” Mr. Scheidegger said. “That choice makes it morally justified to convict the person of murder when that possibility happens.”

About 16 percent of homicides in 2006 occurred during felonies, according to the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Statistics concerning how many of those killings led to the murder prosecutions of accomplices are not available, but legal experts say such prosecutions are relatively common in the more than 30 states that allow them. About 80 people have been sentenced to death in the last three decades for participating in a felony that led to a murder though they did not kill anyone.

Terry Snyder, whose daughter Jessica was the victim in Mr. Holle’s case, said Mr. Holle’s conduct was as blameworthy as that of the man who shattered her skull.

“It never would have happened unless Ryan Holle had lent the car,” Mr. Snyder said. “It was as good as if he was there.”

Prosecutors sometimes also justify the doctrine on the ground that it deters murders. Criminals who know they will face harsh punishment if someone dies in the course of a felony, supporters of the felony murder rule say, may plan their crimes with more care, may leave deadly weapons at home and may decide not to commit the underlying felony at all.

But the evidence of a deterrent effect is thin. An unpublished analysis of F.B.I. crime data from 1970 to 1998 by Anup Malani, a law professor at the University of Chicago, found that the presence of the felony murder rule had a relatively small effect on criminal behavior, reducing the number of deaths during burglaries and car thefts slightly, not affecting deaths during rapes and, perversely, increasing the number of deaths during robberies. That last finding, the study said, “is hard to explain” and “warrants further exploration.”

The felony murder rule’s defenders acknowledge that it can be counterintuitive.

“It may not make any sense to you,” Mr. Rimmer, the prosecutor in Mr. Holle’s case, told the jury. “He has to be treated just as if he had done all the things the other four people did.”

Prosecutors sought the death penalty for Charles Miller Jr., the man who actually killed Jessica Snyder, but he was sentenced to life without parole. So were the men who entered the Snyders’ home with him, Donnie Williams and Jermond Thomas. So was William Allen Jr., who drove the car. So was Mr. Holle.

Mr. Holle had no criminal record. He had lent his car to Mr. Allen, a housemate, countless times before.

“All he did was go say, ‘Use the car,’ ” Mr. Allen said of Mr. Holle in a pretrial deposition. “I mean, nobody really knew that girl was going to get killed. It was not in the plans to go kill somebody, you know.”

But Mr. Holle did testify that he had been told it might be necessary to “knock out” Jessica Snyder. Mr. Holle is 25 now, a tall, lean and lively man with a rueful sense of humor, alert brown eyes and an unusually deep voice. In a spare office at the prison here, he said that he had not taken the talk of a burglary seriously.

“I honestly thought they were going to get food,” he said of the men who used his car, all of whom had attended the nightlong party at Mr. Holle’s house, as had Jessica Snyder.

“When they actually mentioned what was going on, I thought it was a joke,” Mr. Holle added, referring to the plan to steal the Snyders’ safe. “I thought they were just playing around. I was just very naïve. Plus from being drinking that night, I just didn’t understand what was going on.”

Mr. Holle’s trial lawyer, Sharon K. Wilson, said the statements he had given to the police were the key to the case, given the felony murder rule.

“It’s just draconian,” Ms. Wilson said. “The worst thing he was guilty of was partying too much and not being discriminating enough in who he was partying with.”

Mr. Holle’s trial took one day. “It was done, probably, by 5 o’clock,” Mr. Holle said. “That’s with the deliberations and the verdict and the sentence.”

Witnesses described the horror of the crime. Christine Snyder, for instance, recalled finding her daughter, her head bashed in and her teeth knocked out.

“Then what did you do?” the prosecutor asked her.

“I went screaming out of the home saying they blew my baby’s face off,” Ms. Snyder said.

The safe had belonged to Christine Snyder. The police found a pound of marijuana in it, and, after her daughter’s funeral, she was sentenced to three years in prison for possessing it.

Not every state’s version of the felony murder rule is as strict as Florida’s, and a few states, including Hawaii, Kentucky and Michigan, have abolished it entirely.

“The felony-murder rule completely ignores the concept of determination of guilt on the basis of individual misconduct,” the Michigan Supreme Court wrote in 1980.

The vast majority of states retain it in various forms, but courts and officials have taken occasional steps to limit its harshest applications.

In August, for instance, Gov. Rick Perry of Texas commuted the death sentence of Kenneth Foster, the driver of a getaway car in a robbery spree that ended in a murder.

Mr. Holle was the only one of the five men charged with murdering Jessica Snyder who was offered a plea bargain, one that might have led to 10 years in prison.

“I did so because he was not as culpable as the others,” said Mr. Rimmer, the prosecutor.

Mr. Holle, who rejected the deal, has spent some time thinking about the felony murder rule.

“The laws that they use to convict people are just — they have to revise them,” he said. “Just because I lent these guys my car, why should I be convicted the same as these people that actually went to the scene of the crime and actually committed the crime?”

Mr. Rimmer sounded ambivalent on this point.

“Whether or not the felony murder rule can result in disproportionate justice is a matter of opinion,” Mr. Rimmer said. “The father of Jessica Snyder does not think so.”

Kaji
01-12-2008, 04:50 PM
Sage

Old news.

Sublime
01-12-2008, 04:53 PM
Sage

Old news.

Yeah - the judicial system sucks = old news :P.

Random
01-12-2008, 04:54 PM
Saging doesn't work, you just bumped the thread.
Way to go.

RandomPasserby
01-12-2008, 06:52 PM
Oregano
silly Yankees and your zero tolerance.

Shishio
01-12-2008, 07:00 PM
It would be wise to charge the parents of all involved as well, including those of the victim. If they all raised better children, none of this would have happened.

Micah the Great
01-12-2008, 09:49 PM
This is one of the most stupid fucking things i've ever heard. I hate people.

Good thing i didn't let my friend borrow my car the other day... he could have blown up China or something.

japanat
01-12-2008, 10:57 PM
Don't lose sight of the fact that he didn't simply loan them his car. He loaned them his car in full knowledge that they were planning to commit a burglary and would probably have to "knock her out". That makes him an accessory before the fact. And her being killed during the commission of a felony (B&E, theft, assault, among others) makes him an accessory to felony murder. If he hadn't known about their plans, he probably wouldn't even have been charged with a crime, you know.

I do agree that life is a little too much for his involvement, but he's still culpable, and they did kill the young woman in the process of committing a crime he knew about in advance.

jindojim
01-12-2008, 11:17 PM
Lemme guess without reading the article. The accused perpatrators are black, and Roxie believes they're being unjustly convicted.

Digital Masta
01-12-2008, 11:27 PM
Lemme guess without reading the article. The accused perpatrators are black, and Roxie believes they're being unjustly convicted.


Not quite.


:clap:

Although he is somewhat brown.

Don't lose sight of the fact that he didn't simply loan them his car. He loaned them his car in full knowledge that they were planning to commit a burglary and would probably have to "knock her out". That makes him an accessory before the fact. And her being killed during the commission of a felony (B&E, theft, assault, among others) makes him an accessory to felony murder. If he hadn't known about their plans, he probably wouldn't even have been charged with a crime, you know.

I do agree that life is a little too much for his involvement, but he's still culpable, and they did kill the young woman in the process of committing a crime he knew about in advance.

But he was also drunk and had loaned the car to him many times before and in all honesty most of us if it were our friend who we've lent our car to many times in the past probably would've thought he was joking, even if we weren't drunk.

RoxFontaine
01-13-2008, 12:30 AM
Lemme guess without reading the article. The accused perpatrators are black, and Roxie believes they're being unjustly convicted.

I refrain from petty name calling here and just say read the article.

Chris
01-13-2008, 06:44 AM
Don't lose sight of the fact that he didn't simply loan them his car. He loaned them his car in full knowledge that they were planning to commit a burglary and would probably have to "knock her out". That makes him an accessory before the fact. And her being killed during the commission of a felony (B&E, theft, assault, among others) makes him an accessory to felony murder. If he hadn't known about their plans, he probably wouldn't even have been charged with a crime, you know.

I do agree that life is a little too much for his involvement, but he's still culpable, and they did kill the young woman in the process of committing a crime he knew about in advance.


Yeah, japanat hit the nail on the head.

MeneerDijk
01-13-2008, 07:32 AM
Better arrest all the gun shop owners too. They know full well some of the guns they sell will be used for murder at some point.

volomavi
01-13-2008, 10:15 AM
Why stop there? What about people who make the guns? They are practically making people die by making guns.

Ceirnian
01-13-2008, 02:50 PM
Ridiculous, you people think he should not be held accountable for the actions of his friends when he knew for a fact they were going out to rob someone? I agree with Japanat on this one.

RandomPasserby
01-13-2008, 04:30 PM
Ridiculous, you people think he should not be held accountable for the actions of his friends when he knew for a fact they were going out to rob someone? I agree with Japanat on this one.
Are you sure that he knew that they would actually do it? Using the same sense of justice it is more ridiculous is that the girl's parents got off lightly when their drugs were what the robbers were after apparently. No safe full of drugs and no robbery.

Btw. the parents might even be drug dealers if random strangers knew about their drug safe.

Digital Masta
01-13-2008, 06:53 PM
Ridiculous, you people think he should not be held accountable for the actions of his friends when he knew for a fact they were going out to rob someone? I agree with Japanat on this one.


He probably thought it was a joke, just like anybody else, also seeing as he's lended his car to him many times before and nothing (seemingly) has happened in the past to warrant him not letting him. Plus he was drunk, you can't say him being drunk has no bearing on his state of mind when making that decision.

Roxie
01-13-2008, 07:39 PM
People should be accountable for their actions, yes.

THEIR OWN ACTIONS.

Digital Masta
01-13-2008, 08:07 PM
I mean on principle I guess you have to charge him with something but life in prison...come on. These guys would've found other means of performing the robbery had he not given them the car.

Swede
01-13-2008, 08:52 PM
Seems to me like he should be punished, but life in prison seems pretty extreme given the circumstances. He does bear some responsibility for what he did, but to me I don't think the punishment matches the act, as he wasn't actively involved.

Chris
01-13-2008, 09:49 PM
He probably thought it was a joke, just like anybody else, also seeing as he's lended his car to him many times before and nothing (seemingly) has happened in the past to warrant him not letting him. Plus he was drunk, you can't say him being drunk has no bearing on his state of mind when making that decision.

People make mistakes, and it sucks. This mistake doesn't deserve life, but if he had any inclination that they were being truthful he shouldn't have done it.

People should be accountable for their actions, yes.

THEIR OWN ACTIONS.

Unless they beat him into a bloody pulp and took his keys, I think it was his own actions that transferred the vehicle into the criminal's possession.

Roxie
01-13-2008, 10:43 PM
that was kinda my point, Chris.

jindojim
01-14-2008, 01:15 AM
I refrain from petty name calling here and just say read the article.
Since you obviously have such moral fortitude to rise above "petty name calling", I read the article. And I think I was pretty much right, except the guy wasn't obviously African-American.

What do I think about all this? I think he should be somewhat culpable for lending his car out to friends who said they would commit a crime. I'd feel the same way if someone loaned their gun to friends who said they were going to use it to commit a crime. I'm sure the prosecutors were able to hone in on that aspect and convict him. LIFE for it? Definitely way too draconian.

japanat
01-14-2008, 03:48 PM
Are you sure that he knew that they would actually do it? Using the same sense of justice it is more ridiculous is that the girl's parents got off lightly when their drugs were what the robbers were after apparently. No safe full of drugs and no robbery.

Btw. the parents might even be drug dealers if random strangers knew about their drug safe.He said that they told him, didn't he? "Mr. Holle did testify that he had been told it might be necessary to 'knock out' Jessica Snyder." Alcohol doesn't mitigate if you commit a crime, either. And, unfortunately, the girl's parents can't be prosecuted without the drugs being actually found in the safe or in their possession. Even the chemical residue undoubtedly left in the safe is insufficient.

I do agree with Toxic Shock that he should only be punished for his part in the crime, but I don't think he should get off scot-free. I would call 2-5 years adequate.

MeneerDijk: "Better arrest all the gun shop owners too. They know full well some of the guns they sell will be used for murder at some point." Actually, the most that they know is that some of the guns may be used in the commission of a crime, such as murder. But legally, any gun shop owner who knows that the weapon they sell will be used for the commission of a crime - knows, not guesses - is also criminally liable. I believe the recommended sentences in such a case run anywhere from 5-25 years, sometimes more, depending upon the crime/jurisdiction.

Micah the Great
01-14-2008, 06:36 PM
At first Mr. Holle said he thought his friends were just going to get food when they asked to borrow his car. Then Mr. Holle said when he asked them about it, they mentioned the burglary. Mr. Holle said he thought they were joking.

First of all i don't think the alcohol has nothing to do with it. He proly would have made the said decision either way, and being drunk doesn't make you any less guilty of anything... ever. Just because your decision is impaired doesn't mean YOU didn't make it.

Obviously he should be in trouble... pretty serious trouble. But my whole problem with this thing is this: "That decision, prosecutors later said, was tantamount to murder." So now we are living in a society where letting your friend borrow your car is equal to bashing someone's head in? What? That is absolutely 100% fucking ridiculous. Someone who is crazy and evil enough to bash in a young girl's head is miles and miles beyond some random guy who let his friends borrow his car. Mr. Holle made a bad choice, but he had no intension (as far as we know) to kill anybody and wasn't involved in killing anybody.

Another thing i have a problem with is this: "It never would have happened unless Ryan Holle had lent the car,” Mr. Snyder said. “It was as good as if he was there.”That is the worst logic i've ever heard. It was a "mile and a half away." If they want to go to go burglarize that house and/or kill someone in it, they could have just walked there... or borrowed someone else's car... or stole someone's car... or went the next day. For all we know... if the circumstance were even slightly different than they were, more people could have got killed, or maybe no one. No one knows! This isn't Minority Report... this is real fucking life.

This is where they got it right, but i guess no one listened.“The felony-murder rule completely ignores the concept of determination of guilt on the basis of individual misconduct,” the Michigan Supreme Court wrote in 1980.

RandomPasserby
01-14-2008, 09:36 PM
He said that they told him, didn't he? "Mr. Holle did testify that he had been told it might be necessary to 'knock out' Jessica Snyder." Alcohol doesn't mitigate if you commit a crime, either. And, unfortunately, the girl's parents can't be prosecuted without the drugs being actually found in the safe or in their possession. Even the chemical residue undoubtedly left in the safe is insufficient.

Well, I was just mocking the logic in sentencing Holle with the bit about the parents.

But to counter your quote from the news, here is mine "“I honestly thought they were going to get food,” he said of the men who used his car, all of whom had attended the nightlong party at Mr. Holle’s house, as had Jessica Snyder."
Unless the guys were known robbers, normal person would take "Hey, lend us your car. Were going to rob that girl's, who was in the party, parents' safe full of drugs. We might have to knock her out." or something similar as strange joke especially if the person saying it was smiling or laughing. So unless there is better and more condemning evidence than what the news story says, I don't see how anyone could call it justice to sentence him to prison for life.

Chris
01-14-2008, 11:56 PM
But to counter your quote from the news, here is mine "“I honestly thought they were going to get food,” he said of the men who used his car, all of whom had attended the nightlong party at Mr. Holle’s house, as had Jessica Snyder."
Unless the guys were known robbers, normal person would take "Hey, lend us your car. Were going to rob that girl's, who was in the party, parents' safe full of drugs. We might have to knock her out." or something similar as strange joke especially if the person saying it was smiling or laughing. So unless there is better and more condemning evidence than what the news story says, I don't see how anyone could call it justice to sentence him to prison for life.

As shitty as that may be, and I can see in some ways how he might of thought it was a joke, it was still his decision. If you have doubts, then don't follow up on it. It may make him look like a douche to his friends, and peer pressure sucks, but he still made a pretty bad choice. And its hard to believe that if he knew the guys well enough to let them use his car, then he didn't know them well enough to get a really icky feeling in his stomach when they said something about a robbery. I don't think any reasonable person says that the man should get life like the others, but he does need to be held responsible.

that was kinda my point, Chris.


My bad, I read that wrong.

erbiumfiber
01-15-2008, 01:36 AM
American legal system = all the f***ed-up bits of old British law. Without the willingness to change.

New York, being one of the oldest states, has all kinds of screwed-up laws including not having no-fault divorce until recently (and even now I think there are some screwy twists). It also had the HIGHLY PUNITIVE doctrine of "contributory negligence." This says that, if an accident was 99% the fault of the defendent, but 1% of the fault of the plantiff (the injured person) then that person cannot recover ANYTHING. My grandfather was an attorney for a taxicab company in New York City and built his entire career on this principle so that his clients would not have to pay injured parties.

Oh yeah, the law sucks. Or, as Dickens said (through a character), "The law is an ass."

The U.S. patent system, being one of the oldest, also has some really screwy, archaic stuff that needs updating (and causes all kinds of sore points with other countries).

Legal reform is not popular as it gets you a "soft on crime" label.

This is a law that needs to change (and, as it appears from the article, has been abolished in 20 states).

His only chance is an executive pardon. Good luck on that in Florida.

This sort of stuff is the reason why I don't buy a house and let my brother live there. He is pretty flaky and does some crazy stuff. If someone is injured, they will come after me as the property owner. I bought him a run-down house for $20,000 and made sure my name was nowhere near the transaction. Yeah, being liable (criminally or financially) for other people's mistakes totally sucks.