The Military

[Candyvan Stan]

Hello, everybody.

As many of you know, I enrolled in police academy roughly a half a year ago. This means that I've been out on the streets as a uniformed officer - as part of my education - for roughly three months.

In those three months, I've learned a lot. I've learned, for example, that most stereotypes surrounding Dutch cops are true. And I don't like it. My classmates are mostly backstabbers, suckups, lazy, and know-it-alls who only act motivated as soon as there is a higher ranking cop around. They started out acting somewhat 'cool', saying things like "I'm just going to fulfill my quota of fines and that's it". Those very same people now have very high standards of themselves (only about fining people, presumably to suck up to our supervising sergeant) and want to fine as many people as possible on one day. As you can probably tell, I don't like it. I don't became a cop to fine people. I became one to help people. And seeing the higher-ups at the station, it seems they're only hard workers when something serious has happened. Which is very few and far in between. They mostly just sit on their ass and talk, it appears.

I did not expect (although I would have liked) military discipline. It'd make working with civilians harder than it should. But I never expected them to be this lazy and unorganized.

Which is why I decided to apply for the Dutch military. The army, to be precise, but I wouldn't mind the navy either. Now I have a couple of questions. I know there are people like Mechs here who have or are currently serving in the military.

Could you answer me this.

What is life like during boot camp?

What is it like after boot camp?

Since there is no way I'm going to start out as a soldier, what would you advice me to do - enroll at the Royal Military Academy, where they train you to be an officer (a 2nd lieutenant upon completion of the course), or the Royal Military School, where they train you to be an NCO (a sergeant upon completion of the course). Bearing in mind that I am only 19 years old (or 20, probably, when I start).

I'm in pretty good physical shape. Should I try to be a marine or commando from the start, or would you advice me I enroll in the regular army first before joining one of those branches?

How hard is it to have a reasonably normal social life?

How well-respected are NCOs? Some stories would have me believe they're nothing more than assistants to the officers, and get treated as such by the officers.

I have more questions, but for now, these will do. Thanks!

[Chris]

I'm not sure about the Dutch military, but I know in the American military your social life is fine. You still go out on saturday nights, do all the stuff normal 20 year olds do. You just have to be a bit more careful about the trouble you get into. And if you get deployed that puts a pretty big stop on whatever was going on in your life.

But, at the same time it's can be a great career. When choosing marine or commando, well, I'm not sure how your branches are set up. But ask around, find out which one is tougher. Our Marine branch is the toughest physically, though I think their leadership is lacking sometimes in critical thinking skills. They're a grunt job, so your entire world revolves around either being a grunt, or support them very closely.

Our Army's a bit different, if you join your world centers around the grunts, but at the same time you have a bit more choice on career fields that pertain to supporting those grunts, such as the medical field. The Marines rely on the Navy for their medical support (and some of its long range transportation), the Army is a bit more self reliant. None of this might apply to you, but the point I'm trying to get across is that each branch has their pros and cons, and their different leadership styles.

The officers and NCO's and the respect given, well you probably already know the role that each is "supposed" to play and the ranking system, you might want to see if you can find someone with direct experience and weigh them. In the Army a 2nd Lt. is technically higher than a Command Sergeant Major since the 2nd Lt. is an officer. But that 2nd Lt. would be committing career suicide if he even breathed in an insulting way to that CSM, let alone attempt to give commands.

In the Army NCO's and officers are a bit closer, in the Navy Officers are much more removed (not physically, just in how they do things) than most of the lower enlisted ranks. It's not all that uncommon for a Private to talk to a Colonel in the Army. Not so much in the Navy. Each branch has different ways of approaching the officer/NCO deal.

I'm hoping these examples gave you some idea of more specific questions to ask about each branch and how they work so you can get a better idea of what service you want to join. It really does make a difference in how much you get out of it, but in the end the military is just that, you get out what you put in.

I'm not sure if there are any prior service members of the Dutch military on this board, but try and get in contact with veterans if you can, just make sure to to talk get several views of members from different branches if you can. Each branch can be pretty biased against the others in regards to how each branch goes about their business.

[Scarabomb]

Pretty much what Chris says hits the nail on the head.

I too am in the U.S. Military (US Army to be more exact) and pretty much everything he said was correct. If you're in pretty peek physical condition then I would suggest anything like Marines or Commandos. Not only would you get that military discipline that you're looking for but you'd be testing your body and testing your skills at following and leading by command and example.

[Mechs]

Basic will either suck or it will be one of the best and/or interesting time of your life. It all depends on how you make it out to be. Also, be nice to your fellow soldiers. Don't be the dick that is always fucking up things up for everyone else, because, I don't know about the dutch army, but in basic in the states, they still like throwing blanket parties everynow and then. If you don't know what a blanket party is, look it up.

Everything else chris got it.

[Firefly]

Actually, I'm glad you started this topic, because I've been considering the Military (specifically, the Air Force) as well...so...keep the replies coming :)

[Beowulf]

In those three months, I've learned a lot. I've learned, for example, that most stereotypes surrounding Dutch cops are true. And I don't like it. My classmates are mostly backstabbers, suckups, lazy, and know-it-alls who only act motivated as soon as there is a higher ranking cop around. They started out acting somewhat 'cool', saying things like "I'm just going to fulfill my quota of fines and that's it". Those very same people now have very high standards of themselves (only about fining people, presumably to suck up to our supervising sergeant) and want to fine as many people as possible on one day. As you can probably tell, I don't like it. I don't became a cop to fine people. I became one to help people. And seeing the higher-ups at the station, it seems they're only hard workers when something serious has happened. Which is very few and far in between. They mostly just sit on their ass and talk, it appears.
http://www.filmforum.org/films/serpico/serpicocolhead_02.jpg

[ruaidhri]

Well, first, joining the Dutch military is far different from joining the U.S. military. The Dutch don't consider themselves the world's policeman and aren't ready to send in the troops at the drop of a hat.

Second, what makes you believe that people in the military Dutch or otherwise are going to be any different from the police force? Actually, you're going to find that type of person no matter where you work. I suggest you stick with the police for awhile longer and do your best to be the type of officer you believe the people deserve. Consider, if all good people leave the force, what's left.

Firefly, as far as the American military, be careful. You can't just quit and life is not only governed by civilian laws. You are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. If you really want the military experience consider the U.S. Coast Guard http://www.uscg.mil/top/about/. Their primary mission is to save lives and directly protect the United States.

There are even units right here in Wisconsin.

[Firefly]

ruaidhri- thank you so much for that link. I've been looking at their website for so long now, and I'm actually really into it. I think I'm going to seriously look at a Coast Guard career- thanks! :)

[Mechs]

Actually, I'm glad you started this topic, because I've been considering the Military (specifically, the Air Force) as well...so...keep the replies coming :)

What job looking into doing?

[Firefly]

Actually, the PA or the MST the Coast Guard offers are exactly the kind of jobs I'm looking for.

[Micah the Great]

I had a friend go up to Boston right after high school and join the Coast Guard. He seemed to like it i guess... but got out after 4 or 5 years and came back to TN for university.

[Chris]

Coast Guard seems pretty cool, there's a lot of neat stuff you can do but you don't have the overwhelming fear of suddenly being shipped of to Iraq in the middle of your schooling or anything.

[Mechs]

You know, I wonder even how the hell you join the coast guard. I've never, ever seen a coast guard recruiter.

[ruaidhri]

This thread is really about Candyvan Stan's questioning his decision to become a police officer. As I stated before I believe he should not abandon his decision. Societies create laws of behavior and the police enforce those laws. Fines and incarceration enforce the laws. It's not his or any other officers decision to fine an individual, it's societies.

On the question of Coast Guard enlistment brought up by Mech here is a guide: http://uscg.nestor.fjordinteractive.net/get-the-answers/find-a-recruiter

[stsparky]

For the record - Coasties rock. Have fun out there.

[Candyvan Stan]

Everybody, thanks for your insights. I really value your opinions, and I'm glad you came with rock-solid replies that will guide me a little bit.

Ruadhri, I'm sorry to say that I have already pretty much made my mind, and the application process for the Dutch army has already started. It's not about fining people, I don't at all mind that - as long as it isn't my primary task. It's about the attitudes of my colleagues and superiors, the lack of discipline in the entire organisation, the fact that we don't exercise nearly as much as I think we should - and simply realising that this job is not what I imagined it to be.

As some of you may know, I once weighed 87 kilograms. Which is a lot, considering I'm 171cm. Now, I weigh 62 kg. I lost that weight because I was motivated, back then, with the idea that I wanted to be a marine. And I took that seriously, too. For some reason, the idea of becoming a cop took the foreground. However, ever since I even started police academy - even while I was still enjoying it - I wondered if I made the right decision. Maybe I did want to become a marine or join the army. This has been spooking in my mind ever since. I wanted to see the world! Have experience other people would listen to with open ears! If you choose to become a cop as a lifetime career, you're pretty much bound to your home country for the rest of your life. You don't even get much in the way of holidays in a year.

So, yes. I believe I have made the right decision. Trust me, I'm still pondering and constantly rethinking it. Maybe I am viewing the army through rose-coloured glasses. However, I still end up with the same conclusion - this is what I've wanted since I was 15 years old.

[whispering]

What is life like during boot camp?

What is it like after boot camp?
I'm not in the military, but as its mandatory here, had training to become a pioneer. During boot camp sucked, worst 2 months of my life. After, pretty much stayed the same :P What you see in your colleges is what i saw in the army. But i suppose its diffrent since when everyone has to go thorough it, you get people of all kinds. Though last few weeks of my service had a 2 week war excercise, 13 days in subzero temp outside. Most of the lazy called sick for whatever reasons they could think. So with the ones that stayed, we formed a some what functional team.

Anyway, AFAIK here the people that go to live situations either go to peacekeeping or European Union Battlegroups. I'm guessing thats the type of stuff you want to become?

[Mechs]

So, yes. I believe I have made the right decision. Trust me, I'm still pondering and constantly rethinking it. Maybe I am viewing the army through rose-coloured glasses. However, I still end up with the same conclusion - this is what I've wanted since I was 15 years old.

If thats what you really want then go for it. As long as it's something you want to do, and you feel you aren't being forced into it, you'll do fine. Just make sure you get the whole picture of your army before you sign anything though so you know what you are really getting into.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[ruaidhri]

Mechs is correct. Make absolutely sure that you are making the correct choice. The military is not a job you can just decide you don't want to do anymore. It's not that easy to quit when you've signed the dotted line. Also never forget that the laws governing the behavior of military personnel are in addition to civilian laws.

But, if that what you want, I also wish you good fortune in both your career and your life.

[Trump]

My only concern with the army (or any branch of the armed forces) is that you don't get to choose what you do. Even if they train you to do high tech work on submarines, if they really need someone to clean gun barrels at base camp, that's what you might end up doing.

Also, I would recommend going for officer training if you are up for it. I closest comparison would be the difference between starting a job with a masters degree and a high school diploma. You can do well with both, but chances are you will have more opportunities with the masters.

[Y.T.]

My only concern with the army (or any branch of the armed forces) is that you don't get to choose what you do. Even if they train you to do high tech work on submarines, if they really need someone to clean gun barrels at base camp, that's what you might end up doing.


What's the slogan? "Be all you can be?"

Army as a career choice?
.. shittily* paid, hazardous, sometimes immoral work being a cog in a war machine
(now, I wouldn't have anything against serving as a cog in a machine I knew was up to do the right things .. ) - except that it is a tool of the plutocratic elites**..
And what can you expect when you retire? Apart from non-combat personnel and those who maintained machinery, you won't have any valuable skills that might help supplement pension... which won't be worth much considering that government you served lies about inflation ..

*for me. If I continue to work as a software developer, by age 30 I might reasonably except to earn about the same amount of money as a US soldier .. and that's here in a post communist country.
-- However, people who don't have any marketable skills can only sell their willingness to die as someone else's chess pieces.

Here's a good take on it..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcAqR-Hs9II

--------------

Stan .. if you don't like other policemen, there's no need acting like them.
Almost everyone will have to endure things he rather wouldn't* in their professional life .. and it might get better with time. Perhaps police work once you move to a higher life forms - like investigators, financial police will be better.

[Chris]

What's the slogan? "Be all you can be?"

Army as a career choice?
.. shittily* paid, hazardous, sometimes immoral work being a cog in a war machine

Depends on the military. The US military has it decent.
Pay isn't terrible, since you get free housing, and completely free healthcare while on active duty. Dutch military might be completely different on this, I honestly have no idea.

I won't touch the last bit, it was barely worth my time to even mention how much of an oversimplification it is.

(now, I wouldn't have anything against serving as a cog in a machine I knew was up to do the right things .. ) - except that it is a tool of the plutocratic elites**..
And what can you expect when you retire? Apart from non-combat personnel and those who maintained machinery,

Depends on the military, can't really answer that one.

you won't have any valuable skills that might help supplement pension... which won't be worth much considering that government you served lies about inflation ..


Yep, leadership skills are completely, utterly useless. Which is why no one ever hires vets. Ever.




-- However, people who don't have any marketable skills can only sell their willingness to die as someone else's chess pieces.


Congrats on glossing over everything else in order to put forth your unfounded opinion. Yeah, it's true that in one sense you are very much so someone else's chess piece. In other senses though the military allows you to grow in many different ways.

It got my mom a college education and got her out of a shitty hometown. It developed her nursing and leadership skills to the point where she ended up in being a Deputy Commander at a major regional Army healthcare center. All that started from her being an 18 year old private.
My dad went from being almost dirt poor to becoming the highest enlisted rank possible except for Sergeant Major of the Army, he started out as a Vietnam draftee.

Do these examples represent everyone's story? Of course not, but the opportunity's there. In the US, the military is what you make of it, plain and simple. I can't imagine the Dutch forces being vastly different, even counting the fact that they rarely go into combat. If you want to simply be a chess piece, then yes, that's exactly what you'll be. If you want to grow however, in most country's the opportunity is there. The military, in most countries, isn't simply a holding ground for people who can't think for themselves.

[h2orowe]

Yep, leadership skills are completely, utterly useless. Which is why no one ever hires vets. Ever.

Actually, I heard that 1/3 of our nation's homeless are veterans. Not that the skills aren't useful, but I just wanted to bring that up. Not trying to join this discussion really

[Mechs]

However, people who don't have any marketable skills can only sell their willingness to die as someone else's chess pieces.

You don't know anything.

[Chris]

Actually, I heard that 1/3 of our nation's homeless are veterans. Not that the skills aren't useful, but I just wanted to bring that up. Not trying to join this discussion really


What's the source on that?

And granted, as I said, if you go through the military being a lazy, problem soldier then you're not going to get much in the way of skills or leadership experience.

Alot can also be attributed to war trauma, unfortunately. But the military's working pretty hard on that to help support soldiers coming home, even if they are being disgustingly slow about it. There are risks, that's for sure. Which is why others insisted so strongly on knowing what you're getting into. I decided it wasn't for me.

But even if you chose a combat job like infantry, armor, or so on the civilian world will still highly value the leadership skills you get out of those jobs assuming you do your job well and make rank. And, in most cases if you're good at your job in the US military then you will make rank.
The military teaches you to be efficient in your leadership, there's no other way to survive in combat. I've known people who've used those leadership skills to go off and do well in companies, especially defence contractors if you're willing to stay within that area of business.

[japanat]

Actually, I heard that 1/3 of our nation's homeless are veterans. Not that the skills aren't useful, but I just wanted to bring that up. Not trying to join this discussion reallyThat number is way over-inflated and the matter over-simplified.

Of the VietNam vets who became homeless, factors include:
PTSD
Chemical effects (recreational drugs as well as Agent Orange, etc)
Overstressed and underfunded Veteran's Administration
US culture and the reception that received after coming home

Gulf War vets the same first three, though their numbers are said to be smaller

[drdan]

Actually, I heard that 1/3 of our nation's homeless are veterans. Not that the skills aren't useful, but I just wanted to bring that up. Not trying to join this discussion really

I'm not sure what percentage of veterans are homeless but minus the healthcare should soldiers get paid for the rest of their lives? I mean many of these veterans are in the army for 4 years and get out and I am thankful that they served our country. It is an amazing thing they do. But, people seem to throw out these homeless statistics like it's supposed to mean the U.S. is bad. After four years, or whatever term they serve, they are on their own. Why should they get paid for the rest of their life for working a four year job? Anyways, I don't mean to direct this towards you but I notice a lot of people talk about veteran homelessness and then blame the U.S. govt like they have an obligation to take care of them for the rest of their lives or something (minus the healthcare of course and certain situations). It's a job and once you finish you're on your own.

[Plekto]

No, that figure is correct. The vast majoity are due to being dropped from the V.A. or basically told to get lost and refused treatment, especially for psychological disorders, which afflict almost half of all veterans(true for all wars, in fact) Just that WWII vets were given loads of support, which was the exception. WWI, Korea, Veitnam, and Iraq - all were essentially forgotten by our government once they were of no longer use.

And for the original poster - if you're unsure about the police, you certainly dont belong in the military. They will use you and drop you the milisecond you cease to be useful to them. If you're not okay with that mercenary view by almost every government on the planet, then you belong in school. Get a good degree and then you can do the same job in engineering or something similar, just with higher pay and nobody owning you.

Then transfer or get ajob in the U.S. and don't look back. :)

[Y.T.]

[Quote:]
However, people who don't have any marketable skills can only sell their willingness to die as someone else's chess pieces.

You don't know anything.


You may be right, I don't know what's it like to be patriotic, which may be what clouded your judgment and made you choose the military... or maybe it was just fate...
... or it seemed like a good idea at the time..

Pray tell, why is my quote unfounded? As I understand it, the only thing you need to join the military is lack of severe mental retardation, no significant health problems ..

No fluency in three foreign languages*, university degree, vocational training, mastery of craft or anything else you need to have steady and secure employment.



The military teaches you to be efficient in your leadership, there's no other way to survive in combat. I've known people who've used those leadership skills to go off and do well in companies, especially defence contractors if you're willing to stay within that area of business.

No doubt military is a broadening experience, however, the question how much good does come from serving in it ought to be balanced against "how much could I learn elsewhere" ..


Which is why no one ever hires vets. Ever.


Statistically unfounded. And, military leadership skills might be completely useless elsewhere. If I am correct military style of leadership is somewhat authoritative.
I do think there are better ways of leading reasonable people, provided there is time to decide.. .


It got my mom a college education and got her out of a shitty hometown. It developed her nursing and leadership skills to the point where she ended up in being a Deputy Commander at a major regional Army healthcare center. All that started from her being an 18 year old private.
My dad went from being almost dirt poor to becoming the highest enlisted rank possible except for Sergeant Major of the Army, he started out as a Vietnam draftee.


Hmm. I have the bad luck to be born in a country where even the poorest people could afford to study at a university if they were smart enough and didn't have to join.
(though every able man had to waste two years)
Still possible nowadays, though a bit harder.


Do these examples represent everyone's story? Of course not, but the opportunity's there. In the US, the military is what you make of it, plain and simple. I can't imagine the Dutch forces being vastly different, even counting the fact that they rarely go into combat. If you want to simply be a chess piece, then yes, that's exactly what you'll be. If you want to grow however, in most country's the opportunity is there. The military, in most countries, isn't simply a holding ground for people who can't think for themselves.


Let's rephrase your quote:

Do these examples represent everyone's story? Of course not, but the opportunity's there. In the US, life is what you make of it, plain and simple. I can't imagine Netherlands being vastly different, even counting the fact that they ever have a war. If you want to simply be a sucker, then yes, that's exactly what you'll be. If you want to grow however, in most countries the opportunity is there.


"Life's what you make it." .. etc etc.. I know it. In fact, I like the quote...
Problem with military service is, that you *might be* more than a chess piece, but you always are, essentially, that. No right to refuse a legal order, or something like that.

You can grow anywhere, provided you want to... and are lucky enough.

[japanat]

Interfector,

Although I may not agree with your opinion, I have to say that this last post is probably your most well-written one I've ever read. And I actually agree with one thing you say: "No doubt military is a broadening experience, however, the question how much good does come from serving in it ought to be balanced against 'how much could I learn elsewhere' .."

Anyone considering military experience solely as a way to grow up, like my father urged, needs to think about that. If their motivation is different, then it becomes only one factor to consider.

[Mechs]

You may be right, I don't know what's it like to be patriotic, which may be what clouded your judgment and made you choose the military... or maybe it was just fate...
... or it seemed like a good idea at the time..

Pray tell, why is my quote unfounded? As I understand it, the only thing you need to join the military is lack of severe mental retardation, no significant health problems ..

No fluency in three foreign languages*, university degree, vocational training, mastery of craft or anything else you need to have steady and secure employment.

It has nothing to do with being patriotic. I was a choice I made and I don't regret it a damn bit. I love my job. Plus it comes with it's own little perks too :hat:.

But you're right. You don't need any marketable skills to join the army. You also don't need any marketable skills to work at McDonalds or Burger King, or any other part-time job a kid fresh out of high school can expect to get so whats your point?

[ST185]

Take your time in deciding whether or not to go into the military. Once you are in, the government pretty much owns you for the term of your contract. As was mentioned before, you are not only subject to civilian laws, but also the UCMJ, and any orders or policies from your branch, base, and command.

For example I am in the US Marines, and orders dictate how I can dress when not in uniform. I am non-deployable so I guess I have it bit better than some people, but there are places and commands that will restrict where and when you can go off-base during off-hours.

In the Marines, when you sign up, you are typically assigned a job field which can encompass many specialties. For example when I signed up, I was in the electronic repair field which could be ground or air electronics such as are ground or air radio repair, RADAR repair, microwave radio repair, and a few others I can't remember. I ended up on the air side repairing computers. Although I really like my job, I don't like where I'm doing it - and thus I am out in a few months and going back to the civilian world.

Despite my job assignment, there are other shit jobs that I have performed. I tried to refuse, but I was threatened with loosing my rank and pay (fine). Two years later, I find out that for the job I performed, per some guidelines by OSHA or the Marines I forget which, I should have been provided with personal protective equipment that should at the minimum have included respiration filtering equipment. All I was provided with was two garbage bags - one for each hand.

Off-duty, my time is fairly autonomous. I can still go out at night (though there really isn't any place to go here) and on the weekends if I don't have to work. Additionally, I have opportunities to go to school in the evenings, and the Marines will pay for up to $4500 tuition per year. You're on your own for books and other materials though. This is separate from the GI Bill - although if you use the GI Bill while active, they will still only cover tuition. I have managed to earn my AA here.

Although housing and meals are "free," I really don't like how it's setup.

Since I am single and enlisted, I am forced to live in the barracks. Despite being a NCO, I share a 150 sq ft room with another NCO. Because I live on base, I don't collect money for it. Now if I did not have base housing, I would be given over $600/mo for housing costs. In the area around base, $700/mo covers rent and utilities for a 1500 sq ft 2 bedroom house.

Furthermore, one night after work each week is lost to field day or cleanup of the barracks which will be inspected for cleanliness sometime the next day. Those living off-base or base housing (usually married) are not subject to this and often live in houses that would never pass the inspection those of us living in the barracks could ever get away with.

Another thing about living in barracks is that you will get pulled for random duties (even during off-time) just because you are there. NO one is going to go in town looking for people to perform these duties because it's easier to pull people from the barracks.

Because I live in the barracks, I am forced to pay about $8/day to eat at the chow how whether I eat there or not. I do not get reimbursed if I cannot or do not eat there. If I leave for a 4 day weekend, I am basically throwing about $32 away. I do get an allowance for food, and the $8/day is automatically deducted from that allowance.