PDA

View Full Version : Honor Killing


Kusoyaro
12-15-2007, 10:44 AM
http://www.thestar.com/article/285589


Teen's slaying sparks 'honour killing' debate
TORONTO STAR
Dec 14, 2007 04:30 AM
Jim Wilkes
Isabel Teotonio

Slain schoolgirl Aqsa Parvez will be buried tomorrow after a funeral service expected to draw more than 1,000 family members, friends and others touched by her death.

The 16-year-old Mississauga girl died Monday after she was strangled in her Longhorn Trail home after quarrelling with family for months over her desire to shed the hijab, the traditional Muslim headscarf. Her father faces a murder charge. An older brother, accused of obstructing the police investigation, faces a bail hearing in Brampton today.

The teen's death has struck a chord with many. It has garnered international headlines, sparked editorials and ignited a firestorm of debate, particularly in cyberspace where Parvez's death has become a springboard for wider discussions on issues such as the hijab, Islam, "honour killings" and misogyny.

On Facebook, at least 11 groups have surfaced in response, with more than 5,000 members, some ranting, some pontificating and others spewing racial epithets.

On YouTube, at least 11 videos, viewed in total more than 16,000 times, have been posted. One website, somalinet.com, published a story on Parvez's death and included a poll about whether the father was justified in the alleged killing. As of last night, five of the 19 who responded agreed.

At the Islamic Centre of Canada mosque yesterday, Muslim leaders defended their faith and said acts of violence are not advocated by Islam or the scriptures of the Qur'an.

Dr. Iqbal Nadvi, spiritual leader of Oakville's Al-Falah Islamic Centre mosque, said parents fail and bring shame upon themselves if a child chooses to abandon holy writings and not wear the hijab.

"It is their duty to convince their kids that this part of their culture," he said. However, he said Muslims "categorically" denounce acts of murder. "This is not allowed in Islam, totally."

Shaila Kibria, who works on human rights issues within the local Muslim community, believes Parvez's reported refusal to wear a hijab, which some regard as symbolic of Islamic oppression toward women, has been key.

"It's so controversial because there are so many interpretations about whether the hijab is a requirement in Islam," said the 32-year-old who chooses to wear the hijab. "But the hijab and religion are not the real issues. What this poor girl went through, which is domestic violence and violence against women, isn't being recognized; what's being recognized is the hijab."

If the discussion remains centred on the issue of the hijab, Kibria said she fears Muslim men won't take responsibility for the "extremist religious patriarchy" that exists within their community.

It was the issue of the hijab that made the story so compelling, said Pierre Taillefer of Agence France-Presse, noting a law in France that forbids the veil in public schools. Funeral service begins at 1:30 p.m. tomorrow at the Islamic Centre of Canada mosque in Mississauga.

I'm sure most of you have already heard about this, I just wanted to know what you all thought.

As for myself, I met Asqa through my girlfriends' sister a few times, she didn't deserve this shit. It's difficult not to be caught up in the desire for placing blame, and to see into the heart of the matter, but this is how I see it; her father was an immigrant who kept a tighter hold on his children, particularly his daughter, because he was worried about how his values would not take to his children. His son (who seemed pretty nice but) would always do whatever his father said - which wasn't always a good thing, but Aqsa, obviously, was raised in an environment where religion wasn't as important to her, as her faith was rooted in a multifaith, multicultural paradigm, whereas her father and mothers' stemmed from a hegemony, a society where everyone was the same and therefore had more to lose if one was different.
Knowing the motives won't change shit, it is making me angry that people like her father exist, but at the same time, to make sure this doesn't happen again, the actual cause has to be determined and rooted out.
Sadly, I understand how the world works, and this will never happen in my lifetime.

Shuft
12-15-2007, 11:19 AM
This just seems like an issue of domestic violence and crazy people rather than an issue of religion. I submit that even if the family had been as white bread canadian as poutine something else would have sparked this incident. I obviously am nor as familiar with the whole situation as the OP, but I've always felt that people kill people and most of the "reasons" are just excuses.

Beowulf
12-15-2007, 06:21 PM
Yeah I really don't see how this is at all indicative of the muslim population. The guy was pretty clearly just a child abuser.

stsparky
12-15-2007, 07:45 PM
Honor Killings are horrible ALWAYS.

I heard about one on NPR two years ago in which this sick bastard who was an Iraqi policeman who remorselessly murdered his ransomed kidnapped niece just because he thought she was probably violated by the fuckheads who grabbed her.

I don't figure the scum who do these unforgivable deeds are actually human - they're clearly missing any compassion.

Kusoyaro
12-15-2007, 09:42 PM
This isn't a reflection of the average Muslim; it is a testament to the power of religion over people.
To believe that religion played little or no part in this is to condemn things like this to happen again, as the cause will always be overlooked in frivolous attempts at understanding things that have no business being understood.
Facts:
1) The imam of the mosque that the family attended is widely renowned as a fundamentalist who espouses death to women who do not wear the hijab; there have been many, many reports on him. Also, this hasn't been the first honor-killing commited by a member of his mosque.
2)The father was very religious, and everyone who knew her even slightly could easily see the symptoms of abuse. Add to this the fact that his "feelings of cultural disassociation" led him to hold to the espoused tenets of his faith closer than he otherwise would have in his homleand.
3)Asqa wasn't at all religious - she was practically an atheist. This didn't go over too well when it was found out that she drank, flirted and was interested in things that her family disapproved of.

To lay blame on what is to be blamed is not to blame the whole of Islam, but to elucidate the problems within holding ultra-conservative doctrines in societies such as ours. It seems whenever religion is involved, most people begin to fail at thinking. This honor killing was 100% religious motivated. I cannot understand how anyone would think it wasn't.

Roxie
12-16-2007, 01:47 AM
It's not JUST religiously motivated, though.

Beowulf
12-16-2007, 03:16 AM
It was motivated by the fact that this guy beat his kids (and his wife in all probability). This time he took it "to far" and killed his daughter. This shit happens all the time to families of all races.

Kusoyaro
12-16-2007, 05:02 AM
The father never beat anyone, he only verbally abused the daughter for failing to live up to his expectations of her, which were based solely on his interpretation of his religion.
What I am not understanding now is why people are refusing to look at the issue; that the perversion of religion will almost always end badly. In this case, this guy, who happened to be Muslim, was conditioned to think that women follow a certain code of conduct. Add to this the fact that his own 'priest' condoned the honor-killing of women who refused to follow the priests' version of Islam, and the answer stares you in the face.
Why make up excuses when the real reason is so obvious?
As a disclaimer for people who assume I am anti-Islamic, I am not. I am merely anti-murder.

Beowulf
12-16-2007, 09:20 AM
The father never beat anyone, he only verbally abused the daughter for failing to live up to his expectations of her, which were based solely on his interpretation of his religion.
Source? Cause it seems like you're just starting to pull facts outta the air here.


What I am not understanding now is why people are refusing to look at the issue; that the perversion of religion will almost always end badly. In this case, this guy, who happened to be Muslim, was conditioned to think that women follow a certain code of conduct. Add to this the fact that his own 'priest' condoned the honor-killing of women who refused to follow the priests' version of Islam, and the answer stares you in the face.
Why make up excuses when the real reason is so obvious?
Way to completely misunderstand what everyone was saying. I think it's pretty much a no-fucking-brainer that perversion of religion is bad. Duh. Thanks for assuming we're retarded.

I really just do not understand the point you're trying to make here.

Kusoyaro
12-17-2007, 01:58 AM
My source is that I knew her, her cousins, and most of her friends.
My point isn't the problems with religious perversion. What I am concerned about is how many people are blaming everything but the cause. The cause is the perversion of religion. Rather than deal with this and look for a way to fix it, people are talking about immigrant issues, cultural disassociation, and other shit that really won't do anything to stop this. This is important to me, at least, because in some middle-eastern and indian societies, honor-killing happens all the time.
I am not saying her death is indicative of the muslim population, nor am I denying that the the murder of children occurs for many other reasons. What I am trying to determine is why, when this specific murder was so very obviously religiously motivated, most people seem to be so very uncomfortable with admitting it.

Roxie
12-17-2007, 03:11 AM
But it's not so "obviously religiously motivated". I mean, on the surface it may appear to be so...that maybe the "excuse"...Like you hint, there are other factors in this...but I don't think I could agree that it's the major contributing factor either.

Kusoyaro
12-17-2007, 04:10 AM
The excuse is cultural disassociation, which is completely bollocks. I don't want to get in too much personal detail, but the biggest cause of contention in her life was the fact that she didn't behave as her father, brother, and to a lesser extent her mother, wanted her to.
There are so many people who live, dress, act, speak, and believe in the things their parents/religion/peers/culture expect them to, and not merely due to propriety.
I'm not going to say something stupid like "religion makes parents kill their children," but it happens, and more often than one would think, especially in the east, where almost all of the perpetrators of these honor-killings are from.
I'm not arguing with any of you guys here, I am merely stating that religion was the motivator for this murder; conditioned through his priest to believe that killing his daughter for what he believed to be the negation of shame was justified if not correct, the father strangled her because she did not wear the hijab.
I guess if I boil my arguments down, it's to say that fundamentalism, in any religion, is a major issue, and that people just don't seeming to be anything about it.

Silverhawk
12-17-2007, 04:15 AM
Religion is the major cause of this. If not for the teachings (or the perversion of it) of his religion, he wouldn't have done this. Its his religion which taught him how women should act, should dress, should be. Its his religion which taught him his moral values. To think that religion didn't play a major role in this incident is just self-delusion.

Roxie
12-17-2007, 04:20 AM
People also learn those things from culture, of which Religion is a part.
I mean, is it due strictly to the perversion and the fundamentalism? or is it the person who would take and be attracted to such fundamentalism?

I agree Kuyso, it is a major issue...but what can you do about it? marginalizing fundamentalists only seems to heighten their fundamentalism...at the same time, you can't embrace it.

Kusoyaro
12-17-2007, 06:52 AM
Social engineering and eugenics.
Or, for starters, screening all the immigrants who want to live a country that is mostly free?

Roxie
12-17-2007, 06:53 AM
We've got our own extremists in the U.S.
Don't know about Canada

Kusoyaro
12-17-2007, 07:13 AM
Extremism and fundamentalism are two different things. Extremism is a necessity for the evolution of society. It describes the beliefs held by a person who embodies radical change (extreme in the sense that they are not widely accepted beliefs. In these terms, all of the founders of the equality and suffragette movement were extremists) whereas fundamentalism is the belief that the doctrines espoused by the founders of a religion must be adhered to without consent to social, economic, cultural, and all other forms of change. Every nation has fundamentalists, and every era has extremists.

Beowulf
12-17-2007, 09:36 AM
Or, for starters, screening all the immigrants who want to live a country that is mostly free?

Wow what a fantastic idea.

Kusoyaro
12-17-2007, 10:22 AM
would you care to explain the sarcasm?

Shuft
12-17-2007, 10:30 AM
If you start screening immigrants for thing like religion as opposed to criminal convictions, you become a very different country.

Kusoyaro
12-17-2007, 10:48 AM
lol, I didn't mean screening them in terms of religion.
I meant in terms of psychosis, bias, and dangerous fundamentalism. Basically a psychological profile. The US and Canada don't do this.
My statement probably came across as ridiculous.

Beowulf
12-17-2007, 10:59 AM
I meant in terms of psychosis, bias, and dangerous fundamentalism. Basically a psychological profile. The US and Canada don't do this.
Probably because it would require professionals, would take a substantial amount of time, and therefore be highly expensive.

Silverhawk
12-17-2007, 11:47 AM
People also learn those things from culture, of which Religion is a part.
Depends on which culture you are from. In some cultures, their culture is derived from religion and this is almost always the case with Islam, as their religion covers practically everything.

I mean, is it due strictly to the perversion and the fundamentalism? or is it the person who would take and be attracted to such fundamentalism?
There's something you have to realise. Was this Muslim a convert or was this Muslim brought up with this perverted version of Islam? If the person was a convert, you could say he was attracted to the fundamentalist way, but if not, its most likely because he was taught that this is the proper way to do things.

I agree Kuyso, it is a major issue...but what can you do about it? marginalizing fundamentalists only seems to heighten their fundamentalism...at the same time, you can't embrace it.
As people outside the religion, we cannot do anything. It is up to the people of the religion to fight the perversion. The religious authorities need to find ways to better educate their followers, if Islam is not violent, Islam does not condone such acts etc. then their followers must know it.

Jetsetlemming
12-17-2007, 01:14 PM
There's a debate about this? Seriously? I mean, maybe if this happened in the middle east, but this news story is from fucking Canada. The thought that there's anybody living in the west that would actually argue on behalf of honor killing and stuff like this case in particular is horrifying.
His Imam should be tried as an accessory.

Trump
12-17-2007, 01:35 PM
Well, isn't this exactly the opposite?
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/12/17/saudi.rape/index.html

Roxie
12-17-2007, 05:10 PM
No. That's a situation righted.

Trump
12-18-2007, 07:02 PM
Wait, do you even understand the issues? One is religious intolerance not allowing a father to integrate his family into society, while the other one is a government overcoming the popular religious beliefs to consider the current moral and cultural situation. But you are saying they aren't opposites? *sigh*

Roxie
12-18-2007, 08:21 PM
Uh, no they aren't. They're very different situations. Not "opposites".