Bonus points to Louisiana.

[Jay]

You've really excelled yourself this time...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/25/AR2005092501413_pf.html

[Kass]

Great...

Louisiana has already misspent the billions they get every year for these projects. Their senators and representatives set the Corps budget almost entirely and all the money went to pork barrel projects. If they'd spent all that money dredging unused waterways on levees instead, New Orleans wouldn't have fared nearly so badly.

From the article:

Corps funding is only part of what Louisiana wants. The 440-page bill also includes $50 billion in open-ended grants for storm-ravaged communities and $13 billion for the Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development,

Eh, I can kind of go along with sending money to the LA DOT.

along with mortgage assistance,

There is already a LOT of federal money in mortgage assistance programs. They can use existing funds and programs.

health care,

Okay. I can live with temporary health care assistance for those working and longterm for indigent and elderly.

substance abuse treatment and other services for hurricane victims.

Um. No. Drug treatment for people who were more than likely doing drugs BEFORE Katrina? No, not my money.

It also includes hefty payments to hospitals, ports, banks, shipbuilders, fishermen and schools,

Tempoarary only.

as well as $8 million for alligator farms,

No thanks. You wanna save alligators? Feed them looters.

$35 million for seafood industry marketing,

Marketing? You want me to fund their advertising budget. Not on your life.

and $25 million for a sugar-cane research laboratory that had not been completed before Katrina.

WTF? How exactly is this my financial responsibility? Let the sugar companies pay for it. Sugar is one of the few products that never loses market share, regardless of how many sugar substitutes come out.

But the list of potential projects also includes a 50-year-old plan for a $750 million lock for the New Orleans Industrial Canal, a project rated the fifth-worst Corps boondoggle in the country by an alliance of taxpayer advocates and environmentalists. It also includes an effort to deepen the Port of Iberia for oil and gas tankers, a project that the Corps had concluded would provide only 30 cents of economic benefit for each dollar expended by taxpayers.

I'm all for helping these people rebuild, but they need to start hitting up private companies to do their share too. I'm not building Domino Sugar's product research facilities or lining the pockets of corrupt LA politicians pockets on pork barrel projects to dredge totally unused branches of the Mississippi River.

Nor am I sacrificing efforts in other areas of the country for them. Just because other places don't get hurricanes does not mean they are disaster free. there are areas that need assistance for earthquake assistance, devastating storms, tornadoes, flooding, etc. as well. You can't leave them vulnerable for one city.

[Jay]

as well as $8 million for alligator farms,

This is one of my favourite excerpts. This is like trying to claim insurance for that 4WD pickup that mysteriously appeared in your yard that was really brought by the floodwaters.

Sigh, I love America. *wipes tear from eye*

[kyaa the catlord]

God only knows we need more alligator farms. Its not as if we don't have plenty of wild alligators...

Need more! Then drop them into Baghdad and by Allah, we'll be laughing then!

[Zonehunter1]

That would be hilarious to see.
God bless our political agendas.

[Pfalzer]

Sorry but screw them.... they should have left pride and their false sense of nothign will happen gives them no excuse. You never ever ever guess on the weather especially when its a hurricane. As soon as i heard about it i would have takne my kids out of school and taken a ride walk bus ride to the country side something away form the ocean and lowlands of LA. Now tht want moeny for them not using the money well. Geezus christ on a pogo stick they r f'in kiddign me!

[Godon]

Yeah, what got me was when they talked about people that were too poor to leave. I just stared at the TV blankly and shouted, "Why don't you fucking walk?". I mean if you're gunna die if you stay... live if you walk...? Idk, I don't get it. I woulda found a way out.

[Kass]

And if you were poor and elderly? Could only walk short stretches? You might make it a mile in three days. Not exactly out of town. Governments at every level have an obligation to assist those people. Having had to evacuate a city before, it is difficult and ending up stranded where you are is far too common.

You're young, able bodied and fortunate enough to have families. Not everyone is that lucky.

A lot of federal, state and local facilities were destroyed and need to be rebuilt. Money is set aside in the budget every year for this, but Katrina/Rita far exceeded any anticipated need. The government needs to do their share, but so does the private sector. Rebuilding is not soley a function of the government. Businesses have insurance. They can rebuild their own stores, factories, research centers and offices. Louisiana needs to cough up its share. New Orleans needs to foot her part of the bill (and account for why it had no evacuation plan to begin with).

What Louisiana and New Orleans cannot do is start tacking on idiotic pork barrel projects to a deserately needed financial aid package. The ensuing fights and cuts will only hurt them in the long run.

[Godon]

The people that couldn't leave were the governments responsibilities. I'm saying that alot of them that stayed could leave. The people who could only get a mile in three days needed to be moved and the people who could move more like 30 should have found shelter where they weren't _below_ sea level.

[Jay]

Money is set aside in the budget every year for this, but Katrina/Rita far exceeded any anticipated need.

So what, the government only expected category 3 hurricanes that oh, damaged a few houses, flooded a bit of land, nothin' major?

I can't see that happening. I'd kind of expect the self-proclaimed most powerful government in the world to be expected for ANY eventuality.

[Kass]

EVERYTHING in New Orleans is below sea level. Wanna try again? The govenrment has an obligation to assist those without their own transportation, who are elderly, disabled or indigent. Of course, their neighbors, friends and family do too. There was a massive failure on everyone's part in Louisiana from the families to the federal government. When there is a cat 5 hurricane heading your way, you don't call for a voluntary evacuation like New Orleans did. You don't leave a thousand school and mass transit busses gassed and parked while packing evacuees into a poorly secured, insufficient shelter. You don't wait to activate the National Guard until the last minute. You don't put someone in charge of FEMA who can't even run a small equestrian club without getting fired.

None of that obviates the obligation to rebuild. It just doesn't all fall squarely on federal tax payers.

This is what the country needs more of: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9487763/

We don't need higer taxes on the average citizen and that is where this money will come from. Congress never increases their own taxes.

[Godon]

I realize everything is but a lot of people that stayed did have a chance to leave and didn't. That is all I am saying.

[Jay]

The thing I mainly can't understand - probably because I'm running on two straight days of coffee and open eyes for some odd reason - is why the evacuation of New Orleans was so "oh... we'll get to it... eventually.."

It's a fucking CATEGORY FIVE hurricane! They don't come bigger! John Howard and the Australian government sent troops over! Who gives a shit! It was their own fault! They saw the warnings on the news and chose not to act! On their own heads be it!

[Kass]

It was more of a "We'd really like it if you left the city and if it isn't too much trouble, could you please take a neighbor with you."

A lot of that attitude was simply ignorance. New Orleans has survived hurricanes before relatively intact and thought they could again. They falsely assumed that levees that were designed to survive a cat 3 would survive a cat 5. They thought Katrina would weaken more than it did. No one knew just how devastating the loss of wetlands on the Louisiana coast would be on hurricane survival. There was no land left to slow the hurricane before it hit populated areas. They city government was arrogant and assumed that buildings like the Superdome would withstand a cat 4 (which is what Katrina was when she made landfall).

It's a lot like the terror alerts in DC now. We're always on an elevated alert status. Washington DC is by far the most desirable target, we get lots of real and false threats. They are indistinguishable from each other. After the first 100, you get used to them and don't take them as seriously as you used to do. Around the major holidays and elections, the alert level jumps through the roof. You know what I do? go to work anyway. Do I have my stupid little shelter in place kit with food and bottled water at my desk? Do I have my instructions on where and why I should stay in DC in the event of an attack? Yes. I have to or I get dinged.

None of that changes how I'm going to handle a disaster. I'm going to get out of here and get to my kid. Government plans be damned. None of it changes that we are so used to being on elevated status, no one cares anymore.

That is what it is like in Florida and on the Gulf Coast. "A hurricane is coming. A hurricane is coming. Run away." And it rarely ever gets there. So then you don't believe it will really hit. You make a judgment call based on past experience. In the past, storms like this have weakened or turned. The conditions are the same and will likely do that. Oops. It didn't. Predicting the weather isn't an accurate or precise science. Meteorologists are wrong more than they are right.


New Orleans and Louisiana should have given stronger warnings. They gavethe same old tired line they do with a cat 1 or 2 hurricane that you can easily ride out. I've ridden out a cat 1 and a cat 2. Lost power for a few hours, had to buy fresh food. If someone said exactly what they did for a cat 1 for a cat 4, would you think you couldn't do the same thing?

The overwhelming majority of people who could evacuate did. A lot of people who wanted to couldn't. A very small percentage of the population left behind were there by choice.

[Godon]

Yeah, we get hurricane warnings all the time over here and nothing has happened, but when/if one that size comes I still try to get out of its way.

[Pfalzer]

I only feel sorry for the elderly and handicapped anyone who wasnt one of those deserve a "fuck you" and "use your brain"...

[Arctic_Slicer]

What pisses me off the most is that they are trying to rebuild the city in the same damned spot. It's pretty obvious you shouldn't build coastal city's below sea level and since you have to rebuild it anyway they should be building it in a better location. In 1946 a Tsunami pretty much wiped the coast of Hilo, Hawaii clean and do you know what they no longer build lots of buildings right on the coast because they are vulnerable to tsunamis. By that same logic you would think that New Orleans would be rebuilding above sea level because obviously building below sea level leaves the building very vulnerable to flooding. It's no surprise though New Orleans was an example of poor city planning and will cost billions of the taxpayers money to rebuild while making the same city planning mistakes.

[Kass]

^See! That is what you get for thinking! Shame on you!

[Shamu]

What pisses me off the most is that they are trying to rebuild the city in the same damned spot. It's pretty obvious you shouldn't build coastal city's below sea level and since you have to rebuild it anyway they should be building it in a better location. In 1946 a Tsunami pretty much wiped the coast of Hilo, Hawaii clean and do you know what they no longer build lots of buildings right on the coast because they are vulnerable to tsunamis. By that same logic you would think that New Orleans would be rebuilding above sea level because obviously building below sea level leaves the building very vulnerable to flooding. It's no surprise though New Orleans was an example of poor city planning and will cost billions of the taxpayers money to rebuild while making the same city planning mistakes.
The problem with this is that New Orleans is in a very important location. It's right where the Mississippi River flows into the Gulf of Mexico, alot of goods get moved up and down the river and through the Gulf to other parts of the US via tributaries to the Miss. River. I'm not saying that building a city below sea level is a great idea or anything and it doesn't help that alot southern politicians are corrupt and didn't prepare for a disaster of this magnatude (almost none of the evacuation proceedures were followed), they have to rebuild there, because of it's importance.
It would just be nice if they'd think about it alittle better this time around when they start to rebuild.

[Kass]

The port has to be rebuilt with sufficient supporting infrastructure. The entire city of New Orleans does not *need* to be rebuilt where it is. People *want* to rebuild it where it is.

Those are two entirely different things. The entire city of New Orleans isn't necessary to support the shipping industry in that area.

Much of the non-essential city should be relocated to the northwest above sea level.

[Shamu]

Actually, it's very important to rebuild there. Do we *have* to. No. But New Orleans is our largest port and one of the largest in the world. The farming economy as well as other industrial goods and services rely heavily on the river system here.
I'm not even saying that all of New Orleans needs to be rebuilt. Most of the residential areas do not need to be rebuilt (allthough there will be some that are rebuilt to support the port workers and their families as well as commercial workers to support the port workers and the people in the tourism industry). But the tourist areas such as the French Quarter and the Convention Center, ect.. things that are important to Louisiana economy (how much money does the state rake in from Mardi Gras?) will also most likely be rebuilt.
Building the port further north could be hindered by the fact that big cargo ships can only get so far up the Mississippi before they run into bridges.
It has been suggested that Houston be used as the main port for the US, but what major rivers flow into Houston? And getting things around by trains isn't as economical as barges for transportatoin either.
As for rebuilding, they could also dredge up the delta like Galvaston did to raise the city above sea level. While this would take alot of time and money, it's a possible solution.
I haven't taken my Ritalin yet today, so my argument isn't as put together as I'd like (damn ADHD), I may have to pop a few and come back and redo this :p .
My point is, in all my incoherent babbling, that New Orleans will have to be rebuilt in some way along with essential residents, it's too important to the economy.

[Pfalzer]

Wow you need a city and port there a port and a long stretch of road would work just fine...

[Shamu]

Wow you need a city and port there a port and a long stretch of road would work just fine...
Yeah, but not everyone is able to afford the commute, so building residences around the port would be more viable for cheap labour. Not everyone can afford a car or even public transportation such as trains and buses.

[Kass]

There's no roads or transportation of any kind right now. Affordable public transportation can be built since everything save some of the port itself is going in from scratch anyway. Put it in there. Public transporation addes as an afterthought is more expensive. Public transportation built into the design plan is very cheap.

Of course, the argument that public transportation is significantly more expensive on average is belied by the number of poor who rely on public transportation because they can't afford a vehicle.

Mardi Gras is not tied to a location. You can celebrate Mardi Cras anywhere. The French Quarter being the only area New Orleans at or slightly above sea level means it isn't unreasonable to clean it up and reopen. It suffered very little damage because it is at a slightly higher elevation than a negative number.

Convention centers and Superdomes can go anywhere. There is nothing at all tying where you put a frivolous football stadium to a specific place. The population of the city of New Orleans could easily relocate slightly northwest. Everything has to be rebuilt just about. There is very little that will be salvagable. This is a golden opportunity to redesign and build a more efficient and equitable city with adequate, acceptable housing for rich and poor alike. You can build in cheap, easy public transportation for commuting.

Ther could be some small town development right around the port but it is exceptionally foolish to put housing and the population center between the Gulf of Mexico and a man made lake that are BOTH at a higher elevation than the city.

Much of this disaster is a creation of the corrupt government in Lousiana that was spending flood control money on bridges to the casinos, the poor planning that thought it was better to stop up all the water that flows to that area in a man-made lake and the overdevelopment of wetlands that served as a weather buffer.

Do you see a trend here? The flooding wasn't from rain alone. It was from levees along Lake Pontchartrain breaking. None of those levees would have broken if people had respected the force of nature and built OUTSIDE of the FLOOD PLAIN. (They are called that for a reason you know.) Instead, they bottle up all that overflow and wonder why it floods their homes. Then, they spend money designated in the Corps of Engineers budget for flood control on a bridge to carry people to casinos. Arguably, that is a good economic investment, but don't spend flood control money on it. The Corps of Engineers isn't here to support casinos. It is here to build levees and you know, work on flood control, among other things. Then to add insult to injury, they destroyed the one thing that was left to lessen the blow of a hurricane.

Katrina was powerful and devastating, but she wouldn'thave been nearly so bad if not for the actions of those who built there.

[Arctic_Slicer]

I say they should just claim all of the land below sea level under eminent domain then remove the land that keeps the ocean from flooding the place making a new bay which would allow the port and the rest of the city to be moved without disrupting the shipping industy it all has to be rebuilt anyways so why not build it where it's not going to get fucked the next time there is a hurricane which could be next summer.

[kyaa the catlord]

They should encase it in a big glass bubble and sink it under the ocean. :P

[Arctic_Slicer]

They should encase it in a big glass bubble and sink it under the ocean. :P

Well they have been saying that it would become like Atlantis sooner or later so why not sooner?