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Mastiker
11-16-2007, 10:08 PM
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/10/30/MNT5T1NER.DTL


The so-called Great Pacific Garbage Patch, a stewy body of plastic and marine debris that floats an estimated 1,000 miles west of San Francisco, is a shape-shifting mass far too large, delicate and remote to ever be cleaned up, according to a researcher who recently returned from the area.

But that might not stop the federal government from trying.

Charles Moore, the marine researcher at the Algalita Marina Research Foundation in Long Beach who has been studying and publicizing the patch for the past 10 years, said the debris - which he estimates weighs 3 million tons and covers an area twice the size of Texas - is made up mostly of fine plastic chips and is impossible to skim out of the ocean.

"Any attempt to remove that much plastic from the oceans - it boggles the mind," Moore said from Hawaii, where his crew is docked. "There's just too much, and the ocean is just too big."

The trash collects in one area, known as the North Pacific Gyre, due to a clockwise trade wind that circulates along the Pacific Rim. It accumulates the same way bubbles gather at the center of hot tub, Moore said.

A two-liter plastic bottle that begins its voyage from a storm drain in San Francisco will get pulled into the gyre and take weeks to reach its place among the other debris in the Garbage Patch.

While the bottle floats along, instead of biodegrading, it will "photodegrade," Moore said - the sun's UV rays will turn the bottle brittle, much like they would crack the vinyl on a car roof. They will break down the bottle into small pieces and, in some cases, into particles as fine as dust.

The Garbage Patch is not a solid island, as some people believe, Moore said. Instead, it resembles a soupy mass, interspersed with large pieces of junk such as derelict fishing nets and waterlogged tires - "an alphabet soup," he called it.

Also, it's undetectable by overhead satellite photos because it's 80 percent plastic and therefore translucent, Moore added. The plastic moves just beneath the surface, from one inch to depths of 300 feet, according to samples he collected on the most recent trip, he said.

By Moore's estimation, the "floating landfill" is also simply too far from land to conduct any meaningful cleanup operation. It's about 1,000 miles west of California and 1,000 miles north of the Hawaiian Islands - a week's journey by boat from the nearest port. It swirls in a convergence zone located about 30 to 40 degrees north latitude and 135 to 145 west longitude.

There's no doubt that a stew of marine debris exists in the convergence zone of the gyre, said Holly Bamford, an oceanographer and director of the marine debris program at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, but there is some debate as to its size.

Moore has led most of the research and publicity surrounding the Garbage Patch, so Bamford said her federal agency, which oversees ocean conditions, is collecting its own data to assess the area and density.

Bamford said she has noted some "gaps in the research" that suggest the affected area is not as large as Moore estimates. Yet there's no question that marine debris is gathering in the area and is having a negative impact on marine life, such as fish who mistake the particles for food.

"But before we embark on a huge removal process," Bamford said, "we need to understand what we're dealing with."

Bamford added that the agency had attempted to take satellite photos of the area last year, but the overhead photos were inconclusive. "It's hard to distinguish a whale reaching the surface versus a piece of plastic," she said.

Still, Bamford said the agency is considering flying unmanned aircraft that can be launched from boats to skim the ocean's surface and collect data.

But launching the drones is 18 months away, Bamford said. It could be two years before a federal plan is enacted to remove the plastic - if it's warranted, Bamford said.

"Once we get to that stage, we'd need to ask, 'If we can remove it, what would be the best way? And what would we do with it afterward? If we collect it, would we bring it back to shore - and then what, put it in a landfill?' "

In the meantime, as the production and the use of plastic continue to grow, so will the Garbage Patch, Moore said. The only way to reduce marine debris, all sides agree, is to cut it off at its source - on land.

The dramatic growth in plastics use over the past two decades is what distresses activists like Moore. The annual production of plastic resin in the United States has roughly doubled in the past 20 years, from nearly 60 billion pounds in 1987 to an estimated 120 billion pounds in 2007, according to a study by the American Chemistry Council, which represents the nation's largest plastic and chemical manufacturers.

Keith Cristman, a senior director of packaging at the American Chemistry Council, said the plastics industry is aware of its connection to marine debris and said the council is working with federal and state agencies to put more recycling bins on California beaches in an attempt to stop plastic bottles and bags from making their way to the sea.

At the end of November, Cristman said, the council is co-sponsoring its first marine debris workshop with state and federal agencies.

Cristman said he'd rather see more plastic recycled than production slowed.

"Plastic is a valuable resource," he said. "It shouldn't be wasted, it should be recycled."

Asked if the council would assist in any cleanup of the Garbage Patch if the federal government called on it, Cristman said, "We're always interested in working with NOAA and the EPA."

Moore said his crew had collected new data that suggested more plastic is entering the gyre, yet he was hesitant to elaborate until he finalized the research.

"The ocean is downhill from everywhere," Moore said. "It's like a toilet that never flushes. You can't take these particles out of the ocean. You can just stop putting them in."

I post this news article not only to discuss it, but to ask how many people have heard of this issue beforehand. In my history of mass communications class students present any news item they find that they think the class hasn't heard of. One student talked about this, and we researched it in class. This is by far the most disturbing thing I've ever heard of, and its supposedly been going on for years. I'm not exposed to too much media, so its not alarming that I've never heard of it.

However, nobody in my class including the teacher had heard of this either.

It could just be that we're from the east coast, therefore farther away from the problem. Out of sight, out of mind, right? But that's still far too disturbing.

Has media really bothered to expose this issue at all, and bring it into the light, or are we just not watching the right sources? I don't know, but it scares me to think that something like this exists, and not everybody is aware of it.

rl*united
11-16-2007, 11:14 PM
Never heard of it.

Noel
11-16-2007, 11:26 PM
I've never heard of this and I follow scientific/environmental news quite closely. I guess if Charles Moore has been "publicizing the patch for the past 10 years" he's not doing a very good job.

Fred
11-16-2007, 11:32 PM
I think I heard about it on NPR

Excel-2008
11-17-2007, 12:11 AM
This could be something that inspired that one episode of Futurama in which a giant meteorite made entirely of garbage threatened the planet.

SlickWilly440
11-17-2007, 12:17 AM
I have never heard about it, but reading that article and imagining a large pile of plastic debris twice the size of the state I live in made me laugh so hard.

Beowulf
11-17-2007, 12:24 AM
Pics or it didn't happen.

Mastiker
11-17-2007, 12:52 AM
I've never heard of this and I follow scientific/environmental news quite closely. I guess if Charles Moore has been "publicizing the patch for the past 10 years" he's not doing a very good job.

Just researching it a bit online, I've seen quite a few places that mention the plastic heap. I guess Moore just isn't publicizing to the right groups, otherwise this would be bigger than it is.

This could be something that inspired that one episode of Futurama in which a giant meteorite made entirely of garbage threatened the planet.

That's what I was thinking of when I first heard about this. :P

I have never heard about it, but reading that article and imagining a large pile of plastic debris twice the size of the state I live in made me laugh so hard.

Makes me cringe.

pics or it didn't happen

No.

ZaichikArky
11-17-2007, 01:16 AM
When I came to Japan, I had to learn its very intricate garbage system. I have to separate all my garbage and take it out on specific days. There is no such thing as a "dumpster". Specific garbage is picked up on specific days. Japan has a really strict system. It left me really upset because at first I would try so hard with the plastics(hands down for me the most difficult day to prepare for) but still would screw up.

But anyway, despite all that, now I think Japan is good. Amerika just fucking sucks sometimes. Makes me not want to go home until a good president comes along and allows for the fixing of a WHOLE bunch of shit, including that trash close to my home. -_-.

PopCulturePooka
11-17-2007, 01:29 AM
Yeah, I especially love Japans clean and effecieint system of 'leave garbage bags lying on the street curb'.

ZaichikArky
11-17-2007, 02:01 AM
^Was that sarcastic?

Mastiker
11-17-2007, 02:55 AM
^ Was that sarcastic?

Roxie
11-17-2007, 03:16 AM
I've heard of it.
http://www.npr.org/search.php?text=garbage+patch

ZaichikArky
11-17-2007, 05:14 AM
^ Was that sarcastic?

Uh, no. I guess I didn:t make it clear enough in the past that I don:t usually understand sarcasm on the internets unless it:s really clear to me. Cause when you talk to a person, at least you can hear sarcasm in their voice. This isn:t clear in text : )

My cool event has some random nice computers with internets for the public. woooo. I bet anyone who has every liked reality shows would be very jealous of me, which includes none of you ELITISTS so I guess I can:t brag so much
; (.

Urameshi YuSooKey
11-17-2007, 05:42 AM
didn:t /it:s / isn:t /can:t

: ≠ ' :bang:

That is all.

PopCulturePooka
11-17-2007, 06:02 AM
^Was that sarcastic?
No it wasn't.

At least in Kanagawa-prefecture, all the lovely seperating rubbish ideas count for naught when come trash day, you merely dump your garbage bags of trash on the curbside. No little tin cans. No 'wheely bins'* like we have in Australia.

Just bags of trash. Factor in apartment buildings sharing one patch of curb for every tenant, Japan's lovely summers, the masses of crows around and people who seem to put trash out to early and you get some lovely days of smell.



*a wheely bin http://images.gonegardening.com/assets/product_images/3/140wheeliebin.jpg

Roxie
11-17-2007, 06:04 AM
we have "wheely bins" in the U.S.

PopCulturePooka
11-17-2007, 06:09 AM
we have "wheely bins" in the U.S.
Ahh ok. I was always led to believe they were an aussie thing.

Dresh
11-17-2007, 06:11 AM
Ahh ok. I was always led to believe they were an aussie thing.

'Twas merely lies and propaganda. Spread the truth.

ZaichikArky
11-17-2007, 07:17 AM
: ≠ ' :bang:

That is all.

What the hell is your problem? Sorry I happen to be on Japanese keyboards at the moment. How about I NOT use contractions just to please you! H-OKAY!

Pooka, the garbage seldom stinks here... that IS because we have a rule that says you can NOT stick your garbage out before the night before it IS to be picked up.

God I hate online elitism. Omg am I an elitist? No I certainly AM not!

Mastiker
11-17-2007, 07:23 AM
What the hell is your problem? Sorry I happen to be on Japanese keyboards at the moment. How about I NOT use contractions just to please you! H-OKAY!

Good thing that he knows everything about your life. Way to take a comment too seriously.

Pooka, the garbage seldom stinks here... that IS because we have a rule that says you can NOT stick your garbage out before the night before it IS to be picked up.

Trash is trash. It smells whether you put it out the night before or night - a lack of container just makes an additional eyesore. :3

God I hate online elitism. Omg am I an elitist? No I certainly AM not!

You have to be good at something to be elitist - or at least be smart enough to pretend you are. :3

ZaichikArky
11-17-2007, 07:26 AM
~
Good thing that he knows everything about your life. Way to take a comment to seriously.


No, I guarentee you he was being elitist. People to bitch about that kind of really dumb shit are usually elitist, I know from experience.

Also, thank you for reassuring me I:m not elitist , even though I:m apparently not elitist enough to be talking :3? Other than stalking, elitism is the second thing I really dislike about nets. Hehe. I could be very elitist about some things I guess, but I usually chose not to be, it:s internet-retarded and makes you sound like a complete prick!

Mastiker
11-17-2007, 07:28 AM
ZA, stop. Please. Sometimes, you have some nice comments, but every time you go off about what you think you know about the internet... it makes me not like to read your posts.

Jetsetlemming
11-17-2007, 07:45 AM
California should be shunned by the rest of the country for being retarded and letting that all float out into the ocean in the first place.
Shunned with violence.

Though I have to wonder what's the concern with getting rid of what's there if it's all neatly gathering itself in one pile, it's not an obvious direct threat to the pacific wildlife, and it would be nearly impossible to get rid of, a really really really better idea would be to just enact some GODDAMN PROCEDURES TO PREVENT TRASH FROM BEING DUMPED IN THE GODDAMN OCEAN. It's not like we don't have landfills. Contrary to popular believe, a landfill is relatively tiny, environmentally friendly, and reusable land.

Also, plastic recycling is a waste of time and resources. Far more fossil fuels are used up in transporting waste plastic to the recycling plant and running the plant than are saved by the recycling, and will be until they even a nice good DIY at-home plastic recycling appliance.

PopCulturePooka
11-17-2007, 08:06 AM
Pooka, the garbage seldom stinks here... that IS because we have a rule that says you can NOT stick your garbage out before the night before it IS to be picked up.
Yeah that was the rule in my prefecture as well. People didn't always follow it.

Also, sometimes the garbage trucks took their time and didn't come till midmorning or afternoon.

And in the heat... well smellsville.

I remember one time I was living in a Gaijin House that had 30 other people. One morning (trash day) I'm leaving to go to work and put my trash on the heap.

The crows were already awake and had been picking and tearing the bags apart. They'd manage to tear open the bag of a 20 year old guy who lived a few doors down from me. How'd I know it was his? Because some of the rubbish from the torn open bag was mail addressed to him.

Another fine piece of rubbish from that bag that the one crow was happily picking at in the middle of a footpath?

A used condom. Leaking love juice on the footpath.

When I returned home the rubbish ahd been collected. The condom was still there.

Urameshi YuSooKey
11-17-2007, 08:20 AM
What the hell is your problem? Sorry I happen to be on Japanese keyboards at the moment. How about I NOT use contractions just to please you! H-OKAY!

mkay. That would be lovely. :innocent:

MNJetter
11-17-2007, 09:19 AM
What the hell is your problem? Sorry I happen to be on Japanese keyboards at the moment. How about I NOT use contractions just to please you! H-OKAY!
Hey, the Japanese keyboard has an apostrophe. Just press shift+7. It's where the "&" sign is on an American keyboard.

Citizen
11-17-2007, 10:13 AM
I could be very elitist about some things I guess, but I usually chose not to be, it:s internet-retarded and makes you sound like a complete prick!

Every time you post about what you "know," get into an argument with someone, post things like "Amerika," throw one of your tantrums, start going nuts with hyperboles/sarcasm/caps lock, talk about the internet, or post one of your ten thousand coma-inducing and usually irrelevant anecdotes, you end up sounding like a complete prick and an elitist. So please just give up while you're behind and stop spamming/trolling this thread. You make yourself sound like you're twelve. Thanks.

And keep in mind that you got a warning about stuff like this just about a week ago.

ZaichikArky
11-17-2007, 11:10 AM
^ LOL!

H-OKAY!

I guess that does sound about right :D.

Still don't mean I'm elitist, just... stupidreactionary, I think.

Beowulf
11-18-2007, 05:48 AM
Seriously why are there no pictures of this thing? If it's really as big as they say then it should be on GoogleEarth.

drdan
11-18-2007, 08:08 AM
Can't beleive some of you are actually buying into this trash (pun intended). It's BS, doesn't exist.

RandomPasserby
11-18-2007, 10:58 AM
Ahh ok. I was always led to believe they were an aussie thing.
Like 4 seasons is a Japanese thing? Wheely bins are an universal thing, mate.

blank slate
11-18-2007, 02:15 PM
I first heard about the garbage patch on The Colbert Report a couple of months back.

MNJetter
11-18-2007, 02:32 PM
Seriously why are there no pictures of this thing? If it's really as big as they say then it should be on GoogleEarth.
If what they're saying about the nature of this garbage patch is true, I can see how you wouldn't be able to see it on a sattelite picture. I mean, most of it, according to the article, has been broken down into dust-size bits. It's not like it would look like a landfill from the air.

rl*united
11-18-2007, 02:38 PM
Seriously why are there no pictures of this thing? If it's really as big as they say then it should be on GoogleEarth.

If the particles are small enough they wouldn`t be visible on google earth. Also plastic doesn`t float on top of the water, any object that floats is partly submerged partly afloat. So plastic would be somewhere around an inch beneath the surface. And even then most plastic waste comes from packages in general which are usually transparent.

....

Okay :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Payne_2:_The_Fall_of_Max_Payne

Max Payne 2: The Fall of Max Payne is a third-person shooter developed by Remedy Entertainment for Windows, Xbox, and PlayStation 2 systems. Max Payne 2 continues the story of Max Payne, a fugitive undercover cop framed for murder in New York City. The game, like its predecessor, borrows heavily from film noir mood and techniques, from stylistic cinematography, use of effects such as bullet-time (slow motion), to graphic novel style cutscenes and narration. The Fall of Max Payne was published by Rockstar Games and the Windows version was released on October 15, 2003 with console versions following later. Despite critical acclaim and an enthusiastic fanbase, the game was met with lackluster sales upon its debut.[citation needed]

Betest game ever.

MNJetter
11-18-2007, 02:57 PM
Hey, I got here first. Make your own post. :P