2008 Presidential Election Discussion

[Roxie]

there's this professor at Emory who's used a formula to figure out the winner of presidential elections...according to the news report, he's been right for the past 5

[Samurai_Pooh]

oh man i almost forgot to make popcorn

brace for impact

[erbiumfiber]

The bail-out, rape that it was the first time around, now has so much other crap in it that it's well over a trillion, if you can even calculate the cost of some of the other tax cuts, etc.

So, let's see...it was a bad idea at 700 billion, but now it's a good idea at over a trillion?

The reporting on this issue makes the reporting in the run-up to the Iraq War look thoughtful and probing.

Once again, the media is parroting the administration: "Be very afraid! Don't question what we do, we know best!"

Major economists are against the plan based on its laughable premise and plan for implementation (let Paulson hand out money to his pals on Wall Street. Uh, wait, that's already happened. Lehman, a Goldman Sachs competitor, was allowed to fail. AIG, WHICH JUST HAPPENED TO OWE GOLDMAN SACHS $20 BILLION, is given a bail-out. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Paulson came from Goldman...and how much do you want to bet he gets A VERY NICE CUSHY JOB ON WALL STREET after the Obama administration kicks him out?).

Obama, why did you support this POS?

I am sad.

Yes, I know I am repeating myself but I feel just like I did during the run-up to the Iraq War. It's like watching a train wreck about to happen, in slow motion.

Well, Obama voted it in and he's going to be the one to watch as he can't get any of the things he wants accomplished as there will be no money left and the whole economy will still be in the toilet. He shot himself in the foot as well as the American taxpayer.

[Plekto]

Actually, his plan is to get in office and toss that bum out - get a new guy in charge of it and do it right. Whether it will do it or not, I don't know. But that appears to be his plan.

The debate is actually about a dead heat. But they are running through the easy points right now. She's about out of material.

[Zen Monkey]

Did Palin just refer to herself as 'middle class'?

It would appear that the oil-owned governor has an interesting concept of the 'average' household.

[Plekto]

Palin is awfully bad at dodging. She just flat out says she's going to not answer the question and goes back to her talking points. She's meat when foreign policy gets brought up.

Too bad she doesn't get one simple truth. If McCain says one thing and, she, another, he wins. Especially on energy policy, which sounds pretty opposite from McCain.

Edit - he REALLY needs to push her some. Get her upset, because she loses focus then.

[Stephy]

Wow. Palin criticized other countries views on women rights and that they should respect women's rights in America, which is hilarious coming from her.


Edit: wtf. Am I the only one noticing that Joe keeps referring to himself in third person?

[Urameshi YuSooKey]

I swear to god Palin has an earpiece in her right ear.

[xtine]

I think it was hilarious when they were talking about climate change. Palin was actually saying "well yeah it was sorta caused by man, but climate change is normal!"
Right, like global warming only comes every 50 years or something. Then she kept hammering the point to use domestic oil resources. Withholding the fact that it would take more than 10 years to even see the impact when during that time we can be pouring money into R&D for solar/nuclear (biofuel is stupid, separate rant) and actually producing energy without massive oil dependence. She's like "uh sure, I guess i'd say yes on alternative energy" when her clear point was to drill the hell out of america to make her oil buddies happy.

[Plekto]

good - the moderator brought up the age issue. Can of worms opened.

[Stephy]

^ Yeah, I was hoping she'd make Palin go first after the "heartbeat away" comment.

HAHA Palin just winked.. wtf...

[Plekto]

I noticed that...

She almost always gets asked second and has time to prepare.

[japanat]

The moderator said at the beginning that they flipped a coin, and Biden would be answering first.

[RoxFontaine]

JOE MOTHER FUCKING BIDEN!

Did he get real on the nation or what? He said, and I paraphrase, "Don't think I don't know what it's like to be a single parent because I'm a man."

She had no response for that.

[Stephy]

Maverick...again and again. -_-


edit: HAHA Go Joe XD talking about exactly what I just got annoyed at. Didn't expect him to.

[Plekto]

I think the critical point was his venting on her over his kids and being a parent. Her response to that was to basically ignore his emotions and blather on with a talking point.

He came off as very real and caring. She's not shown that sort of emotion so far, and it's going to resonate with people I think that Biden has some emotion and a visible soul. My only gripe was that he should have shown that much much earlier.

[RoxFontaine]

^ Word. I think he really wanted to compliment Obama's style though and not kick up so much dust that people would lose sight of what he and Barack want to accomplish. He played his position and he kept it cordial. He did a phenomenal job.

[stsparky]

Listened to part of it in the car.

Not seeing them helped. I kept praying Joe would not put his foot in his mouth.

Her vacuousness won't hurt her standing with 'true believers' — but I pray my sister will wake up and no longer be a supporter.

[Swede]

I definitely felt Biden cleaned house, though Palin never really messed up as bad I thought she might. She certainly did a good job dodging questions, answering in the vaguest possible terms saying things along the lines of "John McCain and I love America!"

In the end I don't think this will change anyone's minds, but it was nice to see Biden handle himself so well. And yeah, as others have said, I really thought the highlight was Biden really shutting Palin down about her using the fact that she's a parent as a qualification.

[Samurai_Pooh]

I think the critical point was his venting on her over his kids and being a parent. Her response to that was to basically ignore his emotions and blather on with a talking point.

He came off as very real and caring. She's not shown that sort of emotion so far, and it's going to resonate with people I think that Biden has some emotion and a visible soul. My only gripe was that he should have shown that much much earlier.

I agree, when Biden was talking about his sons he got all choked up for a second, I think that really showed his human side.

you really could tell Biden was really holding back, you could hear him sighing into his microphone at certain points as if he really wanted to say something but knew he couldn't.

[Myrsilus]

Well I don't think she was torn apart in this debate, but she definitely did lose and did nothing to change the momentum of the race. Not that I figured she could, either way; it would take some amazing spin to combat most of Biden's arguments.

Much more entertaining debate than the recent presidential debate.

[Beowulf]

WHY DID SHE KEEP WINKING AT ME!?

IT HAPPENED LIKE 4 TIMES!

[Plekto]

Well, I guess it's back to OBlahma and McLame.

God, what boring and useless debaters they both were. I want some fire. I want some in your face brawling.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

Biden definitely won the debate in the second half, I'd say.

This time I did actually manage to watch it with about 25 other Democrats (from my college) on a big screen and then had a panel with three of our history/politics professors afterward. It fucking rocked.

[Plekto]

BTW, It really *is* "Bosniak". Nice little advanced knowledge reference he made there that seems to be baiting loads of people into thinking he said the word wrong. Until they look it up, that is. A tiny bit of "I know more about ethnicities and cultures than you've possibly learned in 5 weeks." - very subtle and just the right level of braininess without appearing to be preaching about his credentials.

I really was hoping that the moderator would switch gears and ask a question not on the list. That sometimes happens, usually near the end, to try and trip up the speakers. Taiwan would have been a good choice, IMO. Relevant and complex. Burma or Tibet also would have been good. I doubt if Palin could FIND Burma on a blank map of the world. I bet you Biden could probably tell you what form of government Andorra has. Or how many people the are Palestine.

P.S. I had to look that up, and I'm very good with cultures. He's quite bright.

[h2orowe]

I was glad they brought Darfur up and the US plans on doing something about it. I haven't really paid attention to it for a couple months, so I have no idea if the situation's changed, but the last I heard the UN Peacekeepers weren't doing shit. While I'm not for war whatsoever, some sort of intervention (hopefully agreed upon in the UN) needs to happen in Darfur to stop the genocide that's currently going on.

[erbiumfiber]

Actually, his plan is to get in office and toss that bum out - get a new guy in charge of it and do it right. Whether it will do it or not, I don't know. But that appears to be his plan...


NOT a great plan if that's what he's thinking. If the bill passes tomorrow (likely) and is signed next week, how long do you think it will take before all the authorized money is gone? A month, tops? They have everything geared up that this is such an emergency it has to happen YESTERDAY.

Hmm...kinda like, uh, I don't know...IRAQ?? No, we can't wait for more weapons inspections/sanctions/further alternatives. WE MUST INVADE IMMEDIATELY!!

Yeah, that's been working out great for us.

I just want to see exactly what percentage of the total Goldman Sachs gets. We probably won't know as I'm sure these companies are already figuring out ways to dump these assets into some other organization/subsidiary so that the "teeth" of the bill- the "tough limits" on executive compensation- are not felt by the actual company (just kidding here as there is no bitter pill to swallow for companies accepting the candy from Washingon).

I've read parts of the actual bill and they are SO VAGUE with so much discretion given to the Secretary of the Treasury it is absolutely mind-boggling.

I've even gotten so desperate as to write to my congressman- fat lot of good that it will do as he voted for it the first time around.

I also think that there will be, quietly, further sums of money appropriated down the line for this same purpose. Once the floodgates are open...

And our new President Obama will sign on the dotted line...

[Arctic_Slicer]

Not-so-coincidently Obama's #1 campaign donor is Goldman Sachs. In total the Obama campaign has accepted over $25 million for the financial sector. He's been bought and paid so that there will not be any "change" during his presidency.

Source (http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638)

A lot of the people on this forum have ridiculed me for supporting Ralph Nader but at least he's principled enough to be against the Wall Street bailout (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7aC7CyOP0Q). He's done far more to earn my vote than either Obama and McCain who seem to think they are somehow "entitled" to it.

[darighaz]

When your source is a dead link, you KNOW the info is reliable.

I think AS posts just to annoy people.

[Mastiker]

I think AS posts just to annoy people.

No, that'd be me.

So what if Obama is paid out, and we're not getting any "change" in the white house? McCain is just as paid out, and we're not going to get any "change" with him either!

The way I see it: McCain's mentality scares the hell out of me. You know how Bush is a bit eager to send troops, and be all "Let's scare those terrorists outta Amurica!"... I see McCain in exactly the same way, only much worse because he seems to have the intellectual capacity and mental awareness to know what's going on.

Obama seems like the smart choice, in the sense that McCain seems like the WORST THING WE CAN DO RIGHT NOW.

[Beowulf]

When your source is a dead link, you KNOW the info is reliable.

I think AS posts just to annoy people.
I'm pretty convinced that A_S is the most elaborate troll OP9 has ever seen.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

Not-so-coincidently Obama's #1 campaign donor is Goldman Sachs. In total the Obama campaign has accepted over $25 million for the financial sector. He's been bought and paid so that there will not be any "change" during his presidency.

Source (http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638)
Okay cool, a source. Wait, what's this?

The organizations themselves did not donate, rather the money came from the organization's PAC, its individual members or employees or owners, and those individuals' immediate families.
So Obama got, in total, $691,000 from people who are employees at Goldman Sachs and those within the immediate families of those employees. I don't see the problem here, unless you think someone shouldn't be allowed to donate to a campaign because they work for an investment company. Obama set rules for his campaign a while back that he won't accept money from federal lobbyists or PACs.

Also, I'm sure this means that Obama is in the pocket of the University of California, too.

[Plekto]

NOT a great plan if that's what he's thinking. If the bill passes tomorrow (likely) and is signed next week, how long do you think it will take before all the authorized money is gone? A month, tops? They have everything geared up that this is such an emergency it has to happen YESTERDAY.


Yeah, I know... There are no good "solutions" to this mess other than ignoring it completely and letting the economy fix itself.(which isn't a manufactured "solution")

You'll notice that half of the money will wait until after the next person takes office. Obama is far more likely to yank it back after the initial money is squandered than McCain is. There's also a good chance that the crooks will play fair and be on their best behavior until that second installment comes to them. It's a calculated and risky game that Obama is trying to play here. I think it'll fail - those Wall Street guys have spent their entire adult lives working the system to their advantage.

Though, honestly, he'd have been smarter to vote no on it all from the beginning. "Who's the Maverick now?" would have been a fantastic one-liner during the debates. Such an great opportunity to get middle America behind him as well.

P.S. It's now in excess of $800 billion. They added 448(!) pages of bills and pork to it - everything that they could, right up to a tax credit on some manufacturer of arrows in Oregon to a $15,000 tax credit for the Chevy Volt(excludes the Prius and vehicles with smaller packs), to helping out rum makers in the Virgin Islands to $100 million tax break to racetrack owners...

108 Billion in crap that they were holding on to for a rainy day so it seems. There's no way 448 pages of refuse could be written up that fast.

My only hope is that some bright person in the House adds something horribly vile to Bush - sneaks it in and cripples Guantanamo or say, makes electronic voting illegal or something similar while nobody is really watching. Bush has to vote for all or nothing. So at least they should make it really really hurt the guys in power. I can see it now.. "Sure I'll vote for this if you add a provision that de-funds the RNC..." :clap:

[Duke Luke of Juke]

Do all Alaskans have that annoying accent? It's like the stereotype of a Wisconsinite or Minnesotan accent only somehow (amazingly) worse. lol.

[h2orowe]

I don't think so, Luke. Seems like she's the Larry the Cable Guy of politics.

[Jetsetlemming]

I busted up laughing within ten seconds of tuning into the debate (about an hour late :gloomy:), true story. Palin's way of talking is fucking hilarious, and I'm tempted to vote McCain so we hear more of it. Can you imagine a State of the Union given with that accent?

[stsparky]

It's funny for all of 5 minutes. It's amazing her spouse hasn't throttled her.

[Plekto]

Perhaps that's why he's up on the North Slope nearly the entire year. In fact, we have barely heard anything about him. He might as well be divorced from her the way they seem to run their own lives as two different things.

[stsparky]

I think I'm preaching to the choir - but getting the old bunch of crooks out can only be an improvement.

McCain is being set up to fail (by the GOP, which doesn't love him, even though he's adopted all their unpopular positions — dropping his own to be their goat). He's being Gerald Ford to Jimmy Carter. Or Bush the 1st to Clinton.

All I can hope is that smart people vote and the gullible don't.

[haterllnation]

Do all Alaskans have that annoying accent? It's like the stereotype of a Wisconsinite or Minnesotan accent only somehow (amazingly) worse. lol.

Absolutely not. Actually, she has upset a few Alaskans because of it. She sounds like the mom from Bobby's World, don'cha know!

Edit: I suppose it's an accent some carry but not all. There are people from where she lives that say she is exaggerating or faking it, and that it's more of something you hear in Fargo, ND than in AK. Information about where the accent may come from is here (http://www.slate.com/id/2201318/).

[Roxie]

here (http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Florida_teacher_uses_N_word_against_1003.html)
A Florida middle school teacher faced disciplinary action after using the word "nigger" to describe Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, WJHG's Kristy Wolski reported.

The 7th grade teacher, Greg Howard, asked his students what "change" stood for in relation to the Obama campaign and proceeded to write out the acronym "come help a nigger get elected."
....
Jackson County's Deputy School Superintendent confirmed that the teacher used the racial slur in class and that such actions would not be tolerated.

But school officials said Howard has been transferred to Jackson County Adult Education Program, where he will continue to teach.


They've been learning from the Catholic church.

[Jetsetlemming]

Lol Florida

I actually heard it was "Come help a nigga get elected", though, which would make sense why he was reprimanded but not fired. See: Boondocks.
:innocent:

[mugen]

Can somebody shed some light on whether or not the ballots will use Obama's full name? Because that might have some serious consequences for the outcome of the election.

[Jetsetlemming]

Can somebody shed some light on whether or not the ballots will use Obama's full name? Because that might have some serious consequences for the outcome of the election.
If you mean his middle name, I doubt it. Just name and party affiliation AFAIK.

[Urameshi YuSooKey]

Can somebody shed some light on whether or not the ballots will use Obama's full name? Because that might have some serious consequences for the outcome of the election.
More than likely it will have has middle name as an initial. "Barack H. Obama".

[Digital Masta]

I don't remember seeing his middle inital on the absentee ballot at least.

[Kaji]

I imagine it'll vary by state to some extent or another.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

It's possible it could happen in some states, but in certain swing states with Democratic administrations at the moment (Ohio and Virginia for example), I seriously doubt they'd do that.

[Karthak]

Man, here's a guy who is awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QIGJTHdH50

Watch the entire clip and then tell me with a straight face you don't agree with him.

[Roxie]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b58/Roxie21/2909496470_d751e8a3dc.jpg

[Roxie]

It amazes me how many people felt Palin did “well” in the debate. That view must be the result of a serious lowering of expectations, not so much by her bio, but by years under the influence of dumbed-down media and politics. We expect too damn little any more.

Some of the things that grated on me during her performance were:

Dodging questions: I estimate Palin disregarded or refused to respond to about one third of the questions asked of her. Since when is saying “Let’s change the subject” considered a good debate skill?. It may keep you from falling flat on your face, but it’s disrespectful with the audience, the moderator and the opponent. In comparison Biden did a much better job of giving reasonably straight answers to the questions posed, not just the ones he cherry picked to answer.

Phony, over the top folksiness: I am sorry, I don’t want to hear Palin talk about “Joe Six Pack” in the VP debate anymore than I want to hear Obama talk about “Homeboys” in the presidential ones. It’s tacky and untoward. And, just how many “Doggone its”, You betchas”, “Heckuvas” and “Gollys” can you hear in one VP debate before you begin to feel like you are trapped in some sort of Groundhog’s Day nightmare in Beaver Cleaver Land?
By contrast, I though Biden found a good, middlebrow tone. I think he was engaging and understandable to the average listener, without having to pretend he was sipping a beer with Ozzie & Harriet.

Feigned political naivete: It thought the “I just don’t get you Washington insiders” line was one of the real low points of the debate, not only because is was a major dodge tactic, but it was hypocritical. I think Ms. Bridge-to-Nowhere-as-long-as-Uncle-Sam-is- paying, Ms. Wasilla-Pork-Barrel-Capital-USA, Ms. Troopergate, Ms. McCain-Wants-More-Oversight-on-Wall-Street, can flip flop with the best of the beltway insiders. She sure ain’t as pure as the driven snow. Biden appeared to be much more sincere and authentic in personal style than Palin in her cardboard character innocence.

Hot air & doublespeak: I heard almost nothing about what the actual platform is from Palin, other than platitudes like “cut taxes” and “clean up Washington, without a word about which or how. I definitely didn’t see even a trace of her purported “energy expertise” come through. There really was no meat in any of her remarks. I think Biden delivered considerably more substance on just about every question than Palin did.

All in all, Biden played the part of middle-of-the-raod statesman capable of advising the president, while she looked a whole lot more like, as Wheatley said, a Fox News anchor or a snarky Bush-like mouthpiece, with some spunk thrown in for kicks.I concur

[stsparky]

Does John McCain own VoteForTheMILF.com?

http://www.govgap.com/2008/09/28/john-mccain-own-voteforthemilfcom/

Magic 8 ball indicates yes —*so tell who the racist misogynist is then?
===========
then add Experts say about his Health Plan:

“A family would get $5,000 to purchase coverage, BUT coverage for a family costs around $13,000. An individual person receives $2,500, BUT coverage for single person is around $5,000. This money would be sent directly to insurance company. You have to figure out how to pay the rest.

Those with employer-sponsored coverage, McCain's plan means they will pay taxes on the value of health care benefits they receive from their employers. It's not that families will receive a windfall of $5,000, but that the credit will more or less offset the increased taxes they'll pay.

Those who would benefit most from McCain's tax credit are those who buy their own private plans (those NOT sponsored by an employer) This represents only 5% of population.

The current tax system encourages companies to offer insurance, and 61% of the younger population has insurance through their jobs.

They admit that in the future, the tax credit may not be substantial enough to make up for the increase in taxes.

McCain"s plan to tax workers on the value of their employer-provided health care plans and provide tax credits would encourage some employers, mainly small businesses, to drop health benefits, say experts, and the proposal could eventually eliminate job-based insurance altogether.
======
Palin Repeats Kissinger Falsehood, And Gets Called On It (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/02/palin-repeats-kissinger-f_n_131440.html)

A familiar debate emerges over what is effective diplomacy. Palin claims Obama wants to meet with the world's worst dictators without preconditions. Reminded that Henry Kissinger argued that same position, she posits:

"Dr. Henry Kissinger, especially, and I had a good conversation with him... and he shared with me his passion for diplomacy." How could we sit down, she asks, with those who "hate America and hate with we stand for with our freedoms... those who want to destroy what we stand for cannot be met with discussions on a presidential level."

Biden, like Obama before him, was ready for the response. McCain and Plain talk about a passion for diplomacy, and we have to bring our friends and allies along," he says. "Our friends and allies [are the ones who] have been saying sit down, and talk, talk, talk."
_______________________________________

I want a Minnesotan mom to ask Palin to stop making fun of their accent.

[Plekto]

There's a problem with tax incentives.

You have to cough up the initial money up front and then wait until sometime NEXT YEAR to get it back. Or, actually, some of it back. See, if your tax that you owe is only $2000 after everything else, well, you only get $2000 back. Which is applied up to the amount that you would pay the IRS. It's NOT a refund. It's a Credit.

No tax! Joy!.

Too damn bad about the other money you had to pay out up front.

Wait... You are poor and don't have that money every month to get some of back at a much much later date? I guess you don't pay it to begin with...
(see elderly people who stretch their medications for the same reason as well)

[stsparky]

http://www.uclick.com/feature/08/10/06/db081006.gif

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

And heeeere we go. (http://keatingeconomics.com/) In light of recent attacks, Obama's campaign has decided to start bringing up McCain's involvement in the Keating Five.

[Beowulf]

And heeeere we go. (http://keatingeconomics.com/) In light of recent attacks, Obama's campaign has decided to start bringing up McCain's involvement in the Keating Five.
The funny part is that while the McCain campaigns allegations are retardedly false, this old Keating stuff is true and actually happened. I've been wondering how long it would take for this to come out.

[Trump]

2 things...

Everyone seems so excited about the bail out that the stock market has done really well today. /sarcasm

I cannot, for fear of being an evil person, force another diplomat to have to speak to Palin. As vice president that is a big part of her job, and given her performance at the debate, she cannot do that. I can see it now... someone liek Gordon Brown asks her about an issue in South Africa and Palin responds "Well Gordon, I've always wanted to take a safari! Those animals as just so cute!"

Given these 2 points, we're all completely boned...

[Plekto]

Even moreso when you realize that the second McCain gets in office, China and the other countries will say "screw this", since there's nobody in charge with any economic sense or in Palin's case, a brain, and do three things in short order:

1: Divest their liquid cash out of dollars and put it into gold and other currencies.
2: They will start calling in their debts in terms of erasing their own debts to the U.S. The net effect of everyone wiping the books clean will be that the U.S. suddenly has zero leverage over other countries. They borrow from elsewhere or not at all. McCain puts an assload of strings and crap with anything he does concerning other nations, so why NOT just borrow from China or the EU?
3: The world will stop trading oil and other commodities in dollars.

3B: Superpower ends up being a SuperZero and everyone goes on about their business without the U.S. In effect, they just boycott us economically and don't collapse entirely from our fuckups.

[Beowulf]

John McCain, don't worry he's always irrationally hated Obama! (http://gawker.com/5059170/inside-the-angry-angry-brain-of-john-mccain)
Saw this on Gawker, then got a link to the full text from SA (courtesy of Obama's Senatorial Site (http://obama.senate.gov/letter/060206-sen_obama_and_sen_mccain_exchange_letters_on_ethic s_reform/))

I think they really speak for themselves.
The Honorable John McCain
United States Senate
241 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510

Dear John:

Thank you for inviting me to participate in the meeting yesterday to discuss lobbying and ethics reform proposals currently before the Senate. I appreciate your willingness to reach out to me and several other Senate Democrats to discuss what should be done to restore public confidence in the way that Congress conducts its business. The discussion clearly underscored the difficult challenge facing Congress.

You and many in the Democratic Caucus have played a major role in reform efforts in the Senate. In fact, the Indian Affairs Committee hearings you led were instrumental in promoting public awareness of the culture of corruption that has permeated the nation's capital.

As you know, Senator Harry Reid and others in the Democratic Caucus have taken an important step by introducing S. 2180, the Honest Leadership Act, which imposes many of the same disclosure requirements for lobbyists that you have proposed, while also strengthening enforcement, eliminating "pay to play" schemes, and imposing more restrictive rules on meals, gifts, and travel that Members and their staff can receive from special interests that advocate before Congress. This bill, which now has the support of 40 members of the Democratic Caucus, represents a significant step in addressing many of the worst aspects of corruption that have come to light as a result of the Justice Department investigation of Jack Abramoff.

I know you have expressed an interest in creating a task force to further study and discuss these matters, but I and others in the Democratic Caucus believe the more effective and timely course is to allow the committees of jurisdiction to roll up their sleeves and get to work on writing ethics and lobbying reform legislation that a majority of the Senate can support. Committee consideration of these matters through the normal course will ensure that these issues are discussed in a public forum and that those within Congress, as well as those on the outside, can express their views, ensuring a thorough review of this matter.

Given the state of affairs in Washington, we have a historic opportunity to make fundamental changes in the way our government operates so that the actions we take as public officials are responsive and transparent to the American people. Thank you again for your interest in this important matter.

Sincerely,

Barack Obama
United States Senator
The Honorable Barack Obama
United States Senate
SH-713
Washington, DC 20510

Dear Senator Obama:

I would like to apologize to you for assuming that your private assurances to me regarding your desire to cooperate in our efforts to negotiate bipartisan lobbying reform legislation were sincere. When you approached me and insisted that despite your leadership's preference to use the issue to gain a political advantage in the 2006 elections, you were personally committed to achieving a result that would reflect credit on the entire Senate and offer the country a better example of political leadership, I concluded your professed concern for the institution and the public interest was genuine and admirable. Thank you for disabusing me of such notions with your letter to me dated February 2, 2006, which explained your decision to withdraw from our bipartisan discussions. I'm embarrassed to admit that after all these years in politics I failed to interpret your previous assurances as typical rhetorical gloss routinely used in politics to make self-interested partisan posturing appear more noble. Again, sorry for the confusion, but please be assured I won't make the same mistake again.

As you know, the Majority Leader has asked Chairman Collins to hold hearings and mark up a bill for floor consideration in early March. I fully support such timely action and I am confident that, together with Senator Lieberman, the Committee on Governmental Affairs will report out a meaningful, bipartisan bill.

You commented in your letter about my "interest in creating a task force to further study" this issue, as if to suggest I support delaying the consideration of much-needed reforms rather than allowing the committees of jurisdiction to hold hearings on the matter. Nothing could be further from the truth. The timely findings of a bipartisan working group could be very helpful to the committee in formulating legislation that will be reported to the full Senate. Since you are new to the Senate, you may not be aware of the fact that I have always supported fully the regular committee and legislative process in the Senate, and routinely urge Committee Chairmen to hold hearings on important issues. In fact, I urged Senator Collins to schedule a hearing upon the Senate's return in January.

Furthermore, I have consistently maintained that any lobbying reform proposal be bipartisan. The bill Senators Joe Lieberman and Bill Nelson and I have introduced is evidence of that commitment as is my insistence that members of both parties be included in meetings to develop the legislation that will ultimately be considered on the Senate floor. As I explained in a recent letter to Senator Reid, and have publicly said many times, the American people do not see this as just a Republican problem or just a Democratic problem. They see it as yet another run-of-the-mill Washington scandal, and they expect it will generate just another round of partisan gamesmanship and posturing. Senator Lieberman and I, and many other members of this body, hope to exceed the public's low expectations. We view this as an opportunity to bring transparency and accountability to the Congress, and, most importantly, to show the public that both parties will work together to address our failings.

As I noted, I initially believed you shared that goal. But I understand how important the opportunity to lead your party's effort to exploit this issue must seem to a freshman Senator, and I hold no hard feelings over your earlier disingenuousness. Again, I have been around long enough to appreciate that in politics the public interest isn't always a priority for every one of us. Good luck to you, Senator.

Sincerely,

John McCain
United States Senate
The Honorable John McCain
United States Senate
241 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510

Dear John:

During my short time in the U.S. Senate, one of the aspects about this institution that I have come to value most is the collegiality and the willingness to put aside partisan differences to work on issues that help the American people. It was in this spirit that I approached you to work on ethics reform, and it was in this spirit that I agreed to attend your bipartisan meeting last week. I appreciated then - and still do appreciate - your willingness to reach out to me and several other Democrats.

For this reason, I am puzzled by your response to my recent letter. Last Wednesday morning, you called to invite me to your meeting that afternoon. I changed my schedule so I could attend the meeting. Afterwards, you thanked me several times for attending the meeting, and we left pledging to work together.

As you will recall, I told everyone present at the meeting that my caucus insisted that the consideration of any ethics reform proposal go through the regular committee process. You didn't indicate any opposition to this position at the time, and I wrote the letter to reiterate this point, as well as the fact that I thought S. 2180 should be the basis for a bipartisan solution.

I confess that I have no idea what has prompted your response. But let me assure you that I am not interested in typical partisan rhetoric or posturing. The fact that you have now questioned my sincerity and my desire to put aside politics for the public interest is regrettable but does not in any way diminish my deep respect for you nor my willingness to find a bipartisan solution to this problem.


Sincerely,

Barack Obama
United States Senator
So basically Obama thanks him for allowing a junior senator to pal around to an important meeting with him, McCain responds by basically spitting on him.

Also, the McCain campaign stopped talking about the economy because they "will lose" if they do. (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/10/06/mccain-economy-lost/)

[sOkU]

Ha, McCain - what a character.

[Plekto]

Wow. That's the most eloquent "fuck off, newbie" that I've heard in a long time.

McCain is a total ass.

[stsparky]

I'm so happy Obama's people are bringing back the Keating 5 mess to the forefront.

That will teach them not to unleash Palin. Am waiting to see the McCain/Palin ticket implode.

http://images.salon.com/comics/tomo/2008/09/16/tomo/story.jpg

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

If anyone is curious enough to read it, I recently found a PDF of the syllabus for the course that Obama taught in law school back in 1994. Here it is. (http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/2008OBAMA_LAW/Obama_CoursePk.pdf)

[Beowulf]

If anyone is curious enough to read it, I recently found a PDF of the syllabus for the course that Obama taught in law school back in 1994. Here it is. (http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/2008OBAMA_LAW/Obama_CoursePk.pdf)
lolling at this:
I know a quiz seems a bit demeaning, but everyone needs motivation once in awhile.

[Roxie]

http://johnmccainisyourjalopy.com/

[erbiumfiber]

Arnold Schwarz...(however you spell it): Don't be economic girlie-men.

In this clip from I think the 2004 Republican convention, Arnold brags how Republicans aren't economic girlie-men (how the economy is great, etc).

As posted on This Modern World, it will be funny if people in Washington point this out as he heads there to ask for 7 billion for CA...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUzUbtIptqQ

[Karthak]

It seems the Republicans have truly hit absolute rock bottom:http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/GOP_hits_rock_bottom_Calls_Obama_in_an_official_re lease_terrorists_best_friend.html
I didn't think they'd sink THAT low.

[Beowulf]

It seems the Republicans have truly hit absolute rock bottom:http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/GOP_hits_rock_bottom_Calls_Obama_in_an_official_re lease_terrorists_best_friend.html
I didn't think they'd sink THAT low.
They've been saying this on and off for weeks now dude. I think they're only really starting to push it again to make up for the fact that they don't have an October surprise.

[Plekto]

Wow. That course outline is literally a talking point type list about his views on ethnic and political relations. They should post this somewhere, if for no other reason than to show how he really thinks when removed from politics.

People forget that we're talking a PhD and professor who turned to politics. Obama really needs to get the message out more.

Oh - I bet in exactly two weeks Bin Laden is moved from his isolation cell and suddenly "found" under some rock somewhere. I'm positive that they've caught him or know where he is. But without a boogey-man that seems un-winnable against, you can't keep the illusion of the necessity for the never ending war machine running.

[mugen]

Oh - I bet in exactly two weeks Bin Laden is moved from his isolation cell and suddenly "found" under some rock somewhere. I'm positive that they've caught him or know where he is. But without a boogey-man that seems un-winnable against, you can't keep the illusion of the necessity for the never ending war machine running.
If that's the case, wouldn't it take less resources - and thus risk of this leaking out - to just not capture him? You're still crazy as ever Plekto.:bang:
Not saying it's impossible, just that it's highly unlikely.

[Beowulf]

Wow. That course outline is literally a talking point type list about his views on ethnic and political relations. They should post this somewhere, if for no other reason than to show how he really thinks when removed from politics.

People forget that we're talking a PhD and professor who turned to politics. Obama really needs to get the message out more.

Oh - I bet in exactly two weeks Bin Laden is moved from his isolation cell and suddenly "found" under some rock somewhere. I'm positive that they've caught him or know where he is. But without a boogey-man that seems un-winnable against, you can't keep the illusion of the necessity for the never ending war machine running.
You do realize that he's probably dead and has been for awhile right?

[erbiumfiber]

...People forget that we're talking a PhD and professor who turned to politics. Obama really needs to get the message out more...


I don't think he has a PhD, just a law degree.

All of the people I know who have both a PhD and a law degree are PhD biologists/other scientists/engineers who do patent law (yes, there are others, but it's not common). Otherwise, it's kind of overkill.

[TygressVirgo]

I don't think he has a PhD, just a law degree.
All of the people I know who have both a PhD and a law degree are PhD biologists/other scientists/engineers who do patent law (yes, there are others, but it's not common). Otherwise, it's kind of overkill.

according to his site, just says law degree

He went on to earn his law degree from Harvard in 1991, where he became the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review. Soon after, he returned to Chicago to practice as a civil rights lawyer and teach constitutional law. Finally, his advocacy work led him to run for the Illinois State Senate, where he served for eight years. In 2004, he became the third African American since Reconstruction to be elected to the U.S. Senate.

[Plekto]

My bad - he has a Masters in Law, though he did teach for 12 years. 1992-2004. He may be new to politics, but he's certainly not fresh off the boat, either. I'd estimate his IQ to be in the 160-180 range. He really is downplaying his skills a lot so it seems, in order to appeal to as many people as possible. McCain? Shoot, he's trying as hard as his aging brain can manage.

Obama - Degree in Law. Taught 12 years.
Biden - Degree in Law. Been in politics since 1972.

McCain - Graduated from Annapolis. No official 4-year college degree. Been in Politics since 1982.
Palin - Bachelors in a nearly useless subject(communications).

It's like some Bizarro-world election or some bad comedy movie. The two smart, experienced, and good people are being beat up by Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

*****
Yes, It's quite likely that Bin Laden might be dead, but I suspect that they know where he is and leave him alone, since keeping him alive actually helps their agenda. He does his thing and they have their boogey-man that they can storm in and wipe out in short order if the need ever arises. (recent videos and so on all point to him being alive as of a few months ago)

[RoxFontaine]

This is the most condescending I've seen Keith be....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnSXGTFQ0Ak

[erbiumfiber]

Law Degree = J.D. (Juris Doctor): So you're a "doctor" of something, I guess.

Master of Law (LLM): A degree you get for a year or two of study beyond a three-year J.D. Usually done for specialties like tax law and intellectual property.

Most people (including, apparently, Obama) stop with the J.D. So basically you end up teaching people to get a J.D. with just a J.D. yourself. This would be like being taught by people with bachelor's degrees for your undergraduate degree. I'm always surprised by this system but there it is.

When the economy got ugly after 9/11 (and Enron and WorldCom) and the start-up I was then working for went belly-up, I went back and got an LLM in intellectual property law. Doesn't really do anything for you, career-wise, but I did learn a lot and was glad I did it.

[Kaji]

McCain - Graduated from Annapolis. No official 4-year college degree. Been in Politics since 1982.

Bullshit, the Naval Academy has been issuing Bachelor of Science degrees since the 30s, and regardless of what major is selected all graduates have a strong foundation in engineering.

[Plekto]

True, he has a degree, but even his own website doesn't say what it was in. It's actually no real subject like engineering or music or whatever that he obtained. Degree in... G.E.? I'm honestly not sure what he has. At most, it's a BA/BS.

Oh - I think Obama was secretly baiting McCain into this format, as it's really a LOT like giving a lecture to a class. I call it nearly even in terms of connecting with the crowd.

Oh, most colleges allow you to teach with a Masters or the equivalent, though they obviously will hire the PHD most of the time if they can.

[Roxie]

Oh Wow.

McCain DID NOT just say "That One" while pointing at Obama.

No he didn't. no, no.

He is really, really trying to get Obama to be ANGRY BLACK MAN.

[RoxFontaine]

Damnit! I missed it, Roxie. Forgot it was on. Watching now....

[Beowulf]

Oh Wow.

McCain DID NOT just say "That One" while pointing at Obama.

No he didn't. no, no.

He is really, really trying to get Obama to be ANGRY BLACK MAN.
When McCain gets really excited he creeps me the fuck out.

[Swede]

So am I the only who thought the format of the debate was effing terrible?

[Roxie]

No. Hated it.
It had some pros, but mostly cons.

[Beowulf]

It was pretty fucking terrible. Townhalls are pretty much retarded.

[Samurai_Pooh]

When McCain gets really excited he creeps me the fuck out.

I agree. A couple of the jokes McCain tried to crack while snickering to himself were embarrassing for me to watch. No one else laughed.

[Swede]

Also, it was hilarious when Obama brought up the point "This is the man who said 'Bomb Bomb Iran'"


I was just waiting for McCain to go to the SNL line "Clearly Senator Obama doesn't understand that there was a music troupe in the 60s called The Beach Boys who did a song that went 'Bar Bar Bar Bar Barbara Ann'"

I started lolling.

That and when McCain used the terms nailing to a wall and using protection within basically the same sentence. Though perhaps that was just me being in a silly mood.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

Just got back from another debate watch. McCain had more content to offer this time around and had a bit better stage presence but still came off as a condescending ass several times in the debate. The moderation was fucking awful too.

And IMO, I don't think McCain pointing at Obama like that and saying "That one" was really him trying to paint Obama as an angry black man. While I know the connotations in it, I don't think that's what was going through McCain's mind when he said that, and was just losing his temper. It was still an enormous and stupid blunder.

Wow. That course outline is literally a talking point type list about his views on ethnic and political relations.
I'm not really sure what you're getting at... Do you mean this in a good way?

[Plekto]

894/899. McCain basically graduated because of his family connections. Obama, well, he worked his ass off.

I know which one I respect a little more than the other(being politicians - yeah, I don't really love either to be honest)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSnoHFhFf-A
Best ad of the entire race so far.

P.S. Yes, read the outline - it's quite well thought out. The man has thought about most of his talking points years before by the looks of it.

[stsparky]

Will we see the day McCain admits he gave up US Troops to the NVA? His bio penned by a ghostwriter strongly hints he did exactly that.

“ ... McCain knows all about putting American troops in danger ... ” He broke under torture and did. In his own words Songbird sang

McCain knows torture works, because he gave info violating the U.S. Code of Conduct. Songbird claims regret post facto. No war hero he.

If McCain's Navy superiors deemed him unworthy of flag rank, don't you wonder how he can claim fitness for the role of Commander-in-Chief?

McCain copped to overflying his mission target. Insubordinate, disobedient and a hotdog - "Ace" has to blame himself for becoming a POW.

Why did the NVA call McCain Songbird? Or "The Prince?"

Is McCain going to go to Gamblers Anonymous on our dime or Cindy's?

How long does Cranky McCain hold a grudge? Ask Spain! He caused an International incident there in '61 and still is pissy about it

[stsparky]

Reality Check on Obama's Earmark Request - Never Funded

Senator John McCain attacked Senator Barack Obama for spending hundreds of millions of dollars in earmarks while he's been senator. McCain specifically cited an outlay of $3 million for an overhead projector at a planetarium in Chicago.

McCain was referring to a request from Obama for $3 million for a projector for the Adler Planetarium in Chicago. According to the non-partisan spending watchdog organization, Taxpayers for Common Sense, the request was for $3 million to replace the projector. But the earmark was not funded. No money was spent on the projector. Here is the text of the Obama request according to Taxpayers for Common Sense: "Adler Planetarium, to support replacement of its projector and related equipment, $3,000,000. One of its most popular attractions and teaching tools at the Adler Planetarium is the Sky Theater. The projection equipment in this theater is 40 years old, and is no longer supported with parts or service by the manufacturer. It has begun to fail, leaving the theater dark and groups of school students and other interested museum-goers without this very valuable and exciting learning experience."
====
McCain: Wrong on Hoover

McCain: "My friends the last president to raise taxes during tough economic times was Herbert Hoover..."

Not true. The National Bureau of Economic Research says the recession in the 1990's began during the administration of the first President Bush and lasted from July 1990 to March 1991. U.S. Treasury says President Bush raised taxes in October, 1990.

[Beowulf]

Just got back from another debate watch. McCain had more content to offer this time around and had a bit better stage presence but still came off as a condescending ass several times in the debate. The moderation was fucking awful too.

And IMO, I don't think McCain pointing at Obama like that and saying "That one" was really him trying to paint Obama as an angry black man. While I know the connotations in it, I don't think that's what was going through McCain's mind when he said that, and was just losing his temper. It was still an enormous and stupid blunder.


I'm not really sure what you're getting at... Do you mean this in a good way?
I think the "that one" remark was McCain losing his temper and almost calling Obama a dick or a jerk or something but caught himself just in time. He was more like, "and who did this!?! THAT......one."


Bullshit, the Naval Academy has been issuing Bachelor of Science degrees since the 30s, and regardless of what major is selected all graduates have a strong foundation in engineering.
That clearly wasn't an attack on the Naval Academy. It's public knowledge that McCain was in like the bottom 4% of his graduating and only got through because his father was an admiral.

[Jetsetlemming]

I think the "that one" remark was McCain losing his temper and almost calling Obama a dick or a jerk or something but caught himself just in time. He was more like, "and who did this!?! THAT......one."

cunt

[Swede]

Get your shirts now (http://www.cafepress.com/votethatone08)

That One '08

[Roxie]

And IMO, I don't think McCain pointing at Obama like that and saying "That one" was really him trying to paint Obama as an angry black man. While I know the connotations in it, I don't think that's what was going through McCain's mind when he said that, and was just losing his temper. It was still an enormous and stupid blunder.

No, no, that's not what I meant.
What I'm saying is, it seems like McCain is trying his damn hardest to make Obama angry. Cause if Obama shows any hint of anger, he will become ANGRY BLACK MAN!

[Roxie]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b58/Roxie21/electiontrains.jpg

[h2orowe]

Palin's Thomas the Tank Engine? I love him!

Guess I know who I'm voting for now.

[erbiumfiber]

Yeah, it's a cute graphic but I gotta agree that I'd rather be Thomas the Tank Engine than...Amtrak.

Those trains you see in rural countries with people riding on the roof-tops are better than Amtrak. I've just had so many awful Amtrak experiencs...maybe they've improved since I left the US but I doubt it.

In other news...my ballot arrived by e-mail!! There's a ton of attachments, it's going to take me a little while to figure it all out but I'm going to vote today!

Hmm, there's the "Green Party" and the "Independent Green Party," wonder what the difference is? Then there's Libertarian (Bob Barr), Ralph Nader, I think one other, and "write-in." And that's about it. I remember when there were a ton of other choices- socialists, communists, whatever. Maybe they've made it harder to get on the ballot these days...

[h2orowe]

Wait, there's something called a "write-in?" Does that mean you write the candidate that's not listed's name and elect them? Holy shit. If anonymous was smart enough, they could pull off something funny with that kind of voting. Milhouse would be the president in no time.

[Plekto]

That clearly wasn't an attack on the Naval Academy. It's public knowledge that McCain was in like the bottom 4% of his graduating and only got through because his father was an admiral.

894 out of 899. Bottom 1%. We're talking about essentially C minus average and squeaking by with that much only because it would have been too embarrassing for his grandfather to have his grandson be a total washout.

BTW, his own grandfather thought that he was a total tool. There's a reason he never made it to a real command position. His duty as a soldier in enemy hands was:

1 - to die rather than give out information. He was an mid-ranked officer and not some fresh grunt. He saved himself and then actually gave out real information - the sources I read said that it led to several missions actually failing. That means men actually died as a result of his information.

While this is understandable, since torture is usually effective, it certainly would bar him from ever being in charge of other men in any official capacity. You or I might make the same deal, but he was an officer in the military. This sort of thing never really goes away. They might promote you, but they won't forget this sort of conduct, either.

2 - If you had any opportunity to get out, you were required to do so. Information on the enemy from the inside was worth a lot to your side as well, and staying in might be a nice gesture, but I suspect that there was some other reason that McCain has never talked out. Maybe it was some girl, maybe it was bad blood with his father, or something else - we'll likely never actually know why he chose to stay instead of going home. Given his hothead attitude, ego, and self-serving personality, his reason for why he stayed was honestly not in line with any of this - it totally baffled his superiors as well.

3 - Not screw up. Let's face it - his screw-ups and general attitude about life alone would be reason enough that you'd never want him to be an admiral or similar. Evidently he got into politics when it was clear even to him that he had no real career left in the military and wouldn't advance any further.

When it comes to his military record, I just can't respect a man like him. Sure he served. But come on - any of our guys in Iraq right now are a lot more on the ball and deserving of praise than this goofup and weasel.

[Samurai_Pooh]

Given his hothead attitude, ego, and self-serving personality,

OMG DID U NOT SEE THE CAMPAIGN ADS HE PUTS HIS CUNTRY FIRST!!!!!!!

[Plekto]

God I need a beer. This really IS Bizarro-world election time...

[Samurai_Pooh]

I am sick of how these campaigns pander to the lowest common denominator. I know that this is how politics works in this era, but goddamn is it ever shallow.

Sometimes, I wonder if part of why Obama is winning is because he is taller then McCain. I wish I was kidding.

Still, I am glad Obama is ahead.

[jariten]

Ok...I've got it...those of you who hate military records will hate Mccain.

Those of you who know what it means understand that he was a fucking O-6 squadron commander when he retired. That certainly doesn't qualify you to be president...but it does represent a level of success in the military.

Take it for what it is people. It's a representation of experience, not a qualification.

Neither of these two douches will do you any good anyway.

[Plekto]

I have plenty of respect for people in the military. But there is a difference between someone who basically was promoted based upon family connections and time served, yet would never rise any higher than that versus the real thing. McCain hit a ceiling of his own making.

Plus, to be honest, big deal. So he served in the military. That doesn't automatically make him some prince or something who is suddenly pardoned of all of the crap that he's done since then. He might have served back THEN, but he's been a real ass in the last 30 years or so, since he's been in politics.

What I hate most is how he keeps flogging that dead horse. Like going to your high school reunion and the diva/home coming queen still lording it over everyone 20 years later. Um... the hell have you been doing SINCE then? Kind of sad but also annoying at the same time.

He's unapologetic, rude, condescending, angry, and a real pain in the ass of a man once you get past that public image veneer of fake niceness. Typical career politician, through and through.

And, I could say the same thing about Obama, too, in terms of being self-serving. He honestly should have probably kept teaching than to get himself involved in politics. He'll end up as burnt out and corrupt as McCain in a couple of decades instead of actually having done a great job teaching a new generation of lawyers. Or possibly ended up as a judge somewhere. Given his personality, maybe on the Supreme Court, even. It's interesting to consider sometimes what people would be like if they had made better or different choices...

Is he better than McCain? Probably. But then again, it's going to be sad to see what the coming economic depression, stress, and corruption will turn him into by the time he leaves office.

[Beowulf]

Ok...I've got it...those of you who hate military records will hate Mccain.

Those of you who know what it means understand that he was a fucking O-6 squadron commander when he retired. That certainly doesn't qualify you to be president...but it does represent a level of success in the military.

Take it for what it is people. It's a representation of experience, not a qualification.

Neither of these two douches will do you any good anyway.
The man crashed like 6 planes before he went to Vietnam. Then he went to Vietnam and (SURPRISE SURPRISE) he crashed another plane. The man had no business being in a combat zone at all and was potentially a danger to his fellow servicemen with the record he had.
Don't get me wrong I have nothing but respect for those who serve their countries to the best of their capabilities, but just because you served doesn't automatically make you qualified to be Commander In Chief. Especially when your qualifications are bottom 1% of your graduating class and having crashed a lot of planes. Hell I could probably manage both of those.

[Trump]

It doesn't matter, they both failed the debate. One of the believes keeping people in their homes actually helps them keep a job! I for one, thought it was the other way around. You keep your job which helps you keep your home! One of the believes buying the mortgages at "fair value" is a good thing. One of them believes we can cut taxes and spend more without racking up more debt. One of them believes we can maintain current spending and manage to shrink the size of government. Both of them believe earmarks and pork barrel projects are a good thing. Both of them voted for this retarded bailout plan. Both of them believe they can fix any of this. Both of them are so out of touch with reality and so corrupted by the process and political climate that I don't think I can vote for either of them. Actually it doesn't matter who I vote for, because one of them will win, and all of us will be fucked.

[Karthak]

It doesn't matter, they both failed the debate. One of the believes keeping people in their homes actually helps them keep a job! I for one, thought it was the other way around. You keep your job which helps you keep your home! One of the believes buying the mortgages at "fair value" is a good thing. One of them believes we can cut taxes and spend more without racking up more debt. One of them believes we can maintain current spending and manage to shrink the size of government. Both of them believe earmarks and pork barrel projects are a good thing. Both of them voted for this retarded bailout plan. Both of them believe they can fix any of this. Both of them are so out of touch with reality and so corrupted by the process and political climate that I don't think I can vote for either of them. Actually it doesn't matter who I vote for, because one of them will win, and all of us will be fucked.
"Captain, you won't believe this! The scanners are picking up cynicism on a scale we thought was impossible!"

[Mastiker]

It doesn't matter, they both failed the debate. One of the believes keeping people in their homes actually helps them keep a job! I for one, thought it was the other way around. You keep your job which helps you keep your home! One of the believes buying the mortgages at "fair value" is a good thing. One of them believes we can cut taxes and spend more without racking up more debt. One of them believes we can maintain current spending and manage to shrink the size of government. Both of them believe earmarks and pork barrel projects are a good thing. Both of them voted for this retarded bailout plan. Both of them believe they can fix any of this. Both of them are so out of touch with reality and so corrupted by the process and political climate that I don't think I can vote for either of them. Actually it doesn't matter who I vote for, because one of them will win, and all of us will be fucked.

You know what this post reminds me of?

When The Dark Knight previews were going around and everyone was all "oh god, the Joker looks TERRIBLE. This movie is going to suck balls."

I know that movies and politics aren't even close to being the same, but I just can't help and make the comparison. How do we know that Obama or McCain are going to suck the big one? I see no point in saying we're fucked, because none of us are god damned psychics. I can't see ahead into the future and know for certainty what's going to happen. For all we know, McCain could lead us into four years of peace and harmony while Obama could lead us into 4 years of pain and suffering.

Nobody really knows what's going to happen, we're just making educated guesses based on the very very very limited knowledge we have. But to say we're fucked? Man. It's like you think this is the end of the world or something.

[Harrison]

It doesn't matter, they both failed the debate. One of the believes keeping people in their homes actually helps them keep a job! I for one, thought it was the other way around. You keep your job which helps you keep your home! One of the believes buying the mortgages at "fair value" is a good thing. One of them believes we can cut taxes and spend more without racking up more debt. One of them believes we can maintain current spending and manage to shrink the size of government. Both of them believe earmarks and pork barrel projects are a good thing. Both of them voted for this retarded bailout plan. Both of them believe they can fix any of this. Both of them are so out of touch with reality and so corrupted by the process and political climate that I don't think I can vote for either of them. Actually it doesn't matter who I vote for, because one of them will win, and all of us will be fucked.

TITCR

[TygressVirgo]

^Protip: Never listen to racist, xenophobic haters.

Which is why I removed it from this thread. After I did this :duh:

[Plekto]

It doesn't matter, they both failed the debate.

Then vote for a third party candidate. All three of them actually have views about this, the environment, the economy, and our foreign policies that are almost the opposite of the typical D.C. nonsense.

If they had allowed the Green Party candidate into the debates, she would have cleaned both of their whiny sound-byte laden asses twice over. Her numbers would have risen to near parity with the others, I'd bet, as well.

I'm in California, where it's Democrat-take-all, so I'm voting for her. No reason not to.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

No video I've seen or anything I've read about Cynthia McKinney has suggested to me that she wouldn't have been anything other than annihilated in a debate with Obama and McCain.

[japanat]

...Plus, to be honest, big deal. So he served in the military. That doesn't automatically make him some prince or something who is suddenly pardoned of all of the crap that he's done since then. He might have served back THEN, but he's been a real ass in the last 30 years or so, since he's been in politics. ...

He's unapologetic, rude, condescending, angry, and a real pain in the ass of a manRead this article by that loveable curmudgeon, Fred, on McCain and PTSD: http://fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm Click on "McCain's Head" in the title bar. He may be a grumpy SOB, but he nails this one pretty well.

[stsparky]

Ok...I've got it...those of you who hate military records will hate Mccain...
No, I like most military folk. I'm 3rd Gen DoD. It's I don't like McCain. I dislike rich assholes who think they're entitled to run the show. McCain gave up his side under torture in his own words in an US World and New Report article from May 1973 - so I don't think you should promote yourself as a war hero if you squealed and our people died. Why do you think the North Vietnamese Army called McCain "Songbird?" Or "The Prince?"
"McCain's 05/73 U.S. News & World Report article: He feared on 3rd or 4th day of captivity his blood swollen knee could pool killing him. He gave up military information to his captors in exchange for medical treatment. Consequently military missions were compromised."
Beowulf: He crashed 3 planes, caused an international incident in Spain in another. And was on the Forestal when there was a fire. He disobeyed orders while acting like a hotdog overflew his target and got shot down. He has only his foolish self to blame for his being a POW.

So my tweet sums it up:
McCain knows torture works, because he gave info violating the U.S. Code of Conduct. Songbird claims regret post facto. No war hero he.
It viral —*starting to see more references to McCain as Songbird. And now his gambling addiction is starting to surface. Along with his temper problems.

[Jetsetlemming]

I'm starting to wonder if McCain might not win Pennsylvania. I've seen a couple dozen McCCain/Palin signs in yards lately (Which are annoyingly solid blue, fucking McCain campaign can't even handle basic color coding), and only a couple Obama ones. I've seen more advertising local representative candidates than Obama signs, actually.
One thing I've noticed, thankfully, is that the political bumper sticker seems to have died out. I still see people with Kerry stickers or, god forbid, Gore stickers. Nothing for the '08 election though.

[Swede]

The Obama campaign doesn't really give out a lot of billboards, primarily because they don't do shit. Obama doesn't need to worry about name recognition. This is coming from my sister who's worked for the campaign in Alaska, Montana, and Indiana. They were making much larger efforts to get people canvassing and knocking on doors, since the results you get are a lot better.

Nonetheless, people still get pissed that they can't have a yardsign.

[Plekto]

Maybe I'll make a bumper sticker:

Nobody 2008
they're all the same

[stsparky]

Maybe I'll make a bumper sticker:
Nobody 2008
they're all the same
You think Obama is as bad as a hot tempered gambling dickhead partyboy?
http://www.bartcop.com/wce-mccain=bush-80408.jpg
http://www.bartcop.com/sarah-sixpack.jpg
http://www.bartcop.com/mooselini-daoud-pos-small.jpg

[erbiumfiber]

Then vote for a third party candidate. All three of them actually have views about this, the environment, the economy, and our foreign policies that are almost the opposite of the typical D.C. nonsense.


I think that's where I'm headed but, as I said above, there aren't a lot of options on the VA ballot.

Now I'm seriously considering a write-in...except I can't think of anyone I would want. There WERE some interesting speeches during the bail-out bill "debate," I could go back to C-SPAN and pick someone from there.

I went to the Green Party site to look at their platform. It was very long...I want the "Reader's Digest" version. Actually, I wanted to see a platform that was mostly about the environment but their platform seems to be mainly about social issues. Which, of course, are also important, just takes a lot more time to read and decide if I agree.

I found out the the "Independent Green Party" of VA is just a loose collection of individuals, some of whom are completely bonkers. So that's out.

I don't feel guilty about "wasting" my vote on an independent or third-party candidate because the election is all but decided right now...with the economy this far gone, McCain/Palin do not have a snowball's chance in hell.

So all I can do is send a message, however tiny, about my dissatisfaction with the status quo.

[TygressVirgo]

Given the way things are politically, how is it possible to change the system to give thrid-party/independents a chance? Would the two main parties have to collapse in upon themselves?

[Arctic_Slicer]

I think that's where I'm headed but, as I said above, there aren't a lot of options on the VA ballot.

Now I'm seriously considering a write-in...except I can't think of anyone I would want. There WERE some interesting speeches during the bail-out bill "debate," I could go back to C-SPAN and pick someone from there.

I went to the Green Party site to look at their platform. It was very long...I want the "Reader's Digest" version. Actually, I wanted to see a platform that was mostly about the environment but their platform seems to be mainly about social issues. Which, of course, are also important, just takes a lot more time to read and decide if I agree.

I found out the the "Independent Green Party" of VA is just a loose collection of individuals, some of whom are completely bonkers. So that's out.

I don't feel guilty about "wasting" my vote on an independent or third-party candidate because the election is all but decided right now...with the economy this far gone, McCain/Palin do not have a snowball's chance in hell.

So all I can do is send a message, however tiny, about my dissatisfaction with the status quo.

For a complete list of all candidates who are running in the 2008 election I suggest you look at this great article on Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_candidates_in_the_United_States_presidenti al_election,_2008)

From the information I have gathered it seems that there were no candidates who met the requirements as a valid "write-in" candidate in Virginia. So the only candidates you will be able to vote for and have it count are the ones on the ballot. However the 6 candidates that are on your ballot are all on enough state ballots that they could theoretically win a majority of electoral votes and therefor the presidency if they got enough votes.

The following 6 candidates are the only candidates that appear on enough ballots to have a "viable" candidacy. They are also the only 6 candidates on the Virginia ballot:

Barack Obama (http://www.barackobama.com/index.php)
John McCain (http://www.johnmccain.com/palin.htm)
Ralph Nader (http://www.votenader.org/index.html)
Bob Barr (http://www.bobbarr.com/)
Cynthia McKinney (http://gp.org/index.php)
Chuck Baldwin (http://baldwin08.com/)

All of the candidate names above have been linked to their respective campaign websites; get informed.

Also I agree that not just Cynthia McKinney (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eootfzAhAoU), but also Ralph Nader (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5WiE6MnmCM), Chuck Baldwin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trqB6p02Kek) or Bob Barr (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWctW0X1Q5Y) would have tore those other two guys apart if allowed to debate. Also there is no valid excuse that they were excluded from those debates; they only being excluded because having their voices herd could potentially threaten the monopoly the two major parties currently hold on our failing democracy. In no other Western democracy are the people told that they have 6 candidates but they will only be allowed to see two of them debate. Heck look at the Canadian leader debates (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENkPt69pJmA) that took place last week. Even though the Canadian Green party only had one member in the most recent parliament; their leader, Elizabeth May, was allowed an equal place at the table in debates. Even though I'm not a Canadian and have never even so much as set foot in their country I ended up watching the entire English debate from start to finish because I found it quite entertaining; much more so than the snore fests that pass for debates in this country.

Also just because someone like myself has valid criticisms of the democratic party and their candidates does not make one a troll. However giving full support for said party and their candidates regardless of how bad they are may make one a sheep.

[Swede]

Given the way things are politically, how is it possible to change the system to give thrid-party/independents a chance? Would the two main parties have to collapse in upon themselves?

I don't think it is. Whenever a third party gains a significant amount of support for addressing a particular issue the two major parties typically take on platforms of their own relating to it. Doubtful that a third party is going to happen, unless like you said one/both of the parties collapsed in on themselves and became a new party. But I still don't think there would be three.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

Given the way things are politically, how is it possible to change the system to give thrid-party/independents a chance? Would the two main parties have to collapse in upon themselves?
No, but there would have to be a shift in the way Americans view political parties in the first place. Most aren't all that politically active and only see three options of Republican, Democratic or "independent" and anything else is either far left or far right. The Libertarian Party nominating Bob Barr was probably a good thing long run as it was a message that there is still a party out there for very fiscal conservatives who aren't socially conservative.

The other third parties need to make themselves more viable and able to appeal more to the rest of the electorate than a small, extreme part of it. Most Americans believe it or not aren't socialists (Including me) so they aren't likely to join or pay attention to the Peace and Freedom Party (Nader) and I think the Green Party is a joke (Come on, they still oppose nuclear power; get with the program). Personally I'm registered with the California Democratic Party but that really only goes skin deep for me and I wouldn't mind voting for other parties if they put up a good candidate that I could get behind, and really I don't think any of them have done that so far this general election except for the Democrats. I think registering as an independent could be good but I'm happy enough with my fellow Democrats on a more local level that I don't really see a need to do that yet.

The best way to get better third parties is for them to concentrate the little funds they have a lot more on local and state elections than national. The Green Party even managed to get a member in the US House before I think (From Maine) but was voted out in 2006.

[Zen Monkey]

The closest a third party has come to success (in the presidential race) in recent memory is probably Ross Perot. He had a significant amount of popular support for a third party candidate, and probably could have had more if not for a poor choice of running mate and his constant indecision about whether to stay in the race. With the way things are going today, a reasonable third party could probably assemble a popular platform built just around the economy and war policy. Of course, anyone that posed a threat to the two major parties would have to deal with both of the big political machines trying to tear them apart, and that's a tough fight to win.

Some sort of Ross Perot / Ron Paul ticket built around fixing the economy to the benefit of the lower and middle class would get alot of attention (as the stock market plunges again in the opening hours today), but would still have to deal with lack of charisma and people who vote solely on the issue of gay marriage, or abortion, or gun control, etc.

[Plekto]

Most Americans believe it or not aren't socialists

Most are in reality, closer to Libertarian than anything else. Conservative when it comes to personal rights, family, the Constitution, money, and the environment. But liberal when it comes to basically being left alone to do what you want.

But as a party, the Libertarians are too unwilling to get around the economic issues and fail to see that capitalism is also an extreme ideology. So is socialism. We need a balance between the two or we end up where we are.

The Chicago School(tm) way of doing business is and always has been a failure. Because of one simple fact that all too many idiots with a degree but not enough real world experience make(this happens in every field pretty much). That theory might work well in a paper or in a textbook, but when you add in the elements of human ego, greed, and dogma to the equation, it all falls apart.

Capitalism with no controls leads to despotism as the wealthy abuse their power. There's a reason we have all of those workplace laws in the U.S. Because before they existed, companies would fail to do all of those things and exploit everyone ruthlessly. China is going through what we did in the late 1800s and will eventually also learn that you need rules and regulations.

Hopefully this will lead to a major reworking of our financial system. But I don't see either one as able to do it, since they don't know anything about economics themselves. So that means that they both listen to the same group of idiot advisers that got us into this mess.

Oh a side note, the dollar is at a near all-time high vs the yen, since everyone is moving out of the stock market and into commodities and bonds(essentially hoarding dollars in one form of another). Gold brokers can't actually obtain enough physical bullion worldwide to keep up with the supply, either.

[Trump]

I am strongly considering voting for a third party candidate. Actually, here's what I really want to do. I want to know which candidate will lose and vote for them just to make the vote closer without changing the winner. I think we should go through another scandal like 2000 and prove both parties cheated so that things finally change.

[TygressVirgo]

Lots of interesting thoughts for my question. Thanks for the replies.

If a minor party had a candidate that was charismatic enough, and takes a middle road between the two major parties, would they stand a chance at winning?

Trump - Why do you want to have another scandal? Do you believe that people will be up in arms over it?

[Samurai_Pooh]

Follow the Canadian example. We have 4 major parties (although power usually goes between two of them).

Although the problem with having more parties means it can take longer to pass legislation and more compromises usually have to be made. But at least you have a slightly better chance of your views being represented.

Also, start putting your milk in bags, its awesome

[ak24]

So, I was watching Countdown w/ Keith Olbermann with a guest host (I guess Keith was taking a break today), and they had a breaking news where McCain defended Obama. Kinda funny.

Some old Caucasian lady tells McCain that she doesn't trust Obama and that he's an Arab then McCain stops her and tells her Obama is a decent, family man. McCain also told his crowd that Presiden Barack Obama wouldn't hurt them at all. Haha.

There was also another breaking news that Sarah Palin abused her power to fire some guy. :P

[TygressVirgo]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27105917/?GT1=43001

:frypan:

[Samurai_Pooh]

Kind of screws up the McCain campaigns 'who is barack obama' character assassination somewhat doesn't it

[Roxie]

Follow the Canadian example. We have 4 major parties (although power usually goes between two of them).

Although the problem with having more parties means it can take longer to pass legislation and more compromises usually have to be made. But at least you have a slightly better chance of your views being represented.

Also, start putting your milk in bags, its awesome
I hear your cream soda is pink........................commies.

[Beowulf]

So, I was watching Countdown w/ Keith Olbermann with a guest host (I guess Keith was taking a break today), and they had a breaking news where McCain defended Obama. Kinda funny.

Some old Caucasian lady tells McCain that she doesn't trust Obama and that he's an Arab then McCain stops her and tells her Obama is a decent, family man. McCain also told his crowd that Presiden Barack Obama wouldn't hurt them at all. Haha.

There was also another breaking news that Sarah Palin abused her power to fire some guy. :P
Yeah McCain/Palin has been getting a royal beatdown for allowing their angry mob crowds to scream bloody murder and racial epithets so they're really trying to crack down on this (completely after the fact but whatever).

[KAIZOKUx]

Looks like the tides really have turned.

Buckley endorses Obama (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/)

[Swede]

Looks like the tides really have turned.

Buckley endorses Obama (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/)

At first I was thinking "Isn't he dead? Oh well, his much still rocks."

And then I saw we weren't talking about Jeff :meh:

[Swede]

Video of the debate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l63SRpGXBHE) if anyone missed it

[stsparky]

http://www.boingboing.net/notaprojector.jpg

Overhead Projector is not a Planetarium Projector

During the last presidential debate, McCain took Obama to task for approving funding for an "overhead projector" twice. Howard Covitz, who used to work at Chicago's Adler Planetarium, prepared this helpful graphic for McCain to show the difference between an overhead projector and a planetarium projector. The Adler serves three states' children: Wisconsin, Illinois, and Indiana. So it is unique compared to many other Planetariums in deserving Federal funding. McCain also failed to mention hey also said the projector funding was requested by a bi-partisan group of 6 legislators from Illinois.

[ak24]

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/10/214022/36/494/627013

:bang:

[Roxie]

Videos of a McCain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjxzmaXAg9E)and Palin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJghQMq49dw)rally in Strongsville, Ohio

[Swede]

People really do scare the living shit out of me.

[whispering]

Videos of a McCain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjxzmaXAg9E)and Palin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJghQMq49dw)rally in Strongsville, Ohio

The people hes asking questions from arent that informed, but hes doing a big mistake by riding that high horse there. Would have been better if he just asked the questions, let the people anwser what they want, and the viewer can take it as what it is.

[Samurai_Pooh]

Videos of a McCain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjxzmaXAg9E)and Palin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJghQMq49dw)rally in Strongsville, Ohio

https://webspace.utexas.edu/warnerwt/picard-facepalm.jpg

[Samurai_Pooh]

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=itEucdhf4Us&feature=related

this makes the other videos look relatively tame

[whispering]

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=itEucdhf4Us&feature=related

this makes the other videos look relatively tame
That is exactly what i would have wanted to see in the previous videos.

[h2orowe]

Holy spumoni, those videos are ridiculous and it just truly shows who's working for America's best interest.

McCain/Palin 08.

If you don't vote for him, you're a terrorist.

[haterllnation]

Well, McCain doesn't think he's a terrorist. In fact, he got boo'ed defending him. Hm. By the way, here is the story mentioned by AK above.

McCain booed after trying to calm anti-Obama crowd
by
By PHILIP ELLIOTT and BETH FOUHY

LAKEVILLE, Minn. (AP) — The anger is getting raw at Republican rallies and John McCain is acting to tamp it down. McCain was booed by his own supporters Friday when, in an abrupt switch from raising questions about Barack Obama's character, he described the Democrat as a "decent person and a person that you do not have to be scared of as president of the United States."

A sense of grievance spilling into rage has gripped some GOP events this week as McCain supporters see his presidential campaign lag against Obama. Some in the audience are making it personal, against the Democrat. Shouts of "traitor," "terrorist," "treason," "liar," and even "off with his head" have rung from the crowd at McCain and Sarah Palin rallies, and gone unchallenged by them.

McCain changed his tone Friday when supporters at a town hall pressed him to be rougher on Obama. A voter said, "The people here in Minnesota want to see a real fight." Another said Obama would lead the U.S. into socialism. Another said he did not want his unborn child raised in a country led by Obama.

"If you want a fight, we will fight," McCain said. "But we will be respectful. I admire Sen. Obama and his accomplishments." When people booed, he cut them off.

"I don't mean that has to reduce your ferocity," he said. "I just mean to say you have to be respectful."

Presidential candidates are accustomed to raucous rallies this close to Election Day and welcome the enthusiasm. But they are also traditionally monitors of sorts from the stage. Part of their job is to leaven proceedings if tempers run ragged and to rein in an out-of-bounds comment from the crowd.

Not so much this week, at GOP rallies in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Florida and other states.

When a visibly angry McCain supporter in Waukesha, Wis., on Thursday told the candidate "I'm really mad" because of "socialists taking over the country," McCain stoked the sentiment. "I think I got the message," he said. "The gentleman is right." He went on to talk about Democrats in control of Congress.

On Friday, McCain rejected the bait.

"I don't trust Obama," a woman said. "I have read about him. He's an Arab."

McCain shook his head in disagreement, and said:

"No, ma'am. He's a decent, family man, a citizen that I just happen to have disagreements with (him) on fundamental issues and that's what this campaign is all about."

He had drawn boos with his comment: "I have to tell you, he is a decent person and a person that you do not have to be scared of as president of the United States."

The anti-Obama taunts and jeers are noticeably louder when McCain appears with Palin, a big draw for GOP social conservatives. She accused Obama this week of "palling around with terrorists" because of his past, loose association with a 1960s radical. If less directly, McCain, too, has sought to exploit Obama's Chicago neighborhood ties to William Ayers, while trying simultaneously to steer voters' attention to his plans for the financial crisis.

The Alaska governor did not campaign with McCain on Friday, and his rally in La Crosse, Wis., earlier Friday was much more subdued than those when the two campaigned together. Still, one woman shouted "traitor" when McCain told voters Obama would raise their taxes.

Volunteers worked up chants from the crowd of "U.S.A." and "John McCain, John McCain," in an apparent attempt to drown out boos and other displays of negative energy.

The Secret Service confirmed Friday that it had investigated an episode reported in The Washington Post in which someone in Palin's crowd in Clearwater, Fla., shouted "kill him," on Monday, meaning Obama. There was "no indication that there was anything directed at Obama," Secret Service spokesman Eric Zahren told AP. "We looked into it because we always operate in an atmosphere of an abundance of caution."

Palin, at a fundraiser in Ohio on Friday, told supporters "it's not negative and it's not mean-spirited" to scrutinize Obama's iffy associations.

But Kathleen Hall Jamieson, director of the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania an author of 15 books on politics, says the vitriol has been encouraged by inflammatory words from the stage.

"Red-meat rhetoric elicits emotional responses in those already disposed by ads using words such as 'dangerous' 'dishonorable' and 'risky' to believe that the country would be endangered by election of the opposing candidate," she said.

Beth Fouhy reported from New York. Associated Press writer Joe Milicia contributed to this story from Cleveland.

[h2orowe]

I'm not going to read that because it conflicts with the point of view I am taking for satirical purposes and instead I am going to assert my opinions while rejecting yours. McCain is now on the list of terrorists IN MY BOOK, which I'd never read because it has no pictures.

[whispering]

http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/vp-debate-open-palin-biden/727421/ :clap:

[archdukezeb]

http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/vp-debate-open-palin-biden/727421/ :clap:

Haha you foreigners are so interested in our politics that you'd find a parody of our VP debate entertaining?

Go America!

[Beowulf]

Haha you foreigners are so interested in our politics that you'd find a parody of our VP debate entertaining?

Go America!
What?

[archdukezeb]

What?

I was joking that someone from finland could even name our vp candidates let alone get the political humor about them whereas I'm sure most everyone american on here could probably name only one current leader for about 10-15 countries tops.

[Beowulf]

I was joking that someone from finland could even name our vp candidates let alone get the political humor about them whereas I'm sure most everyone american on here could probably name only one current leader for about 10-15 countries tops.
Apologies. It's difficult to transfer sarcasm through the internet :/

[whispering]

I was joking that someone from finland could even name our vp candidates let alone get the political humor about them whereas I'm sure most everyone american on here could probably name only one current leader for about 10-15 countries tops.

Truth be told, i know a lot more about US politics then e.g. our neighbouring nordic countries Sweden and Norway. Its kinda weird that all major news sites have special pages for US elections, but never e.g. for our neighbouring countries :boggled:

[mawande]

My voting pamphlet has arrived! Huh. Hadn't realized there are eight presidential candidates.

[erbiumfiber]

Depends on your state...I didn't get that many choices but it does appear that I have a write-in choice (but can't be sure that that is what that line is and it doesn't appear to be in the directions...).

Once again, I have to do it with a number 2 pencil...giving me zero confidence in my choice (that is, that my choice remains my choice...I'm sure it's OK but you never know...) :gloomy:

Hmm, I could probably name 20 or so heads of state if spelling doesn't count...have to think about this...no maybe more...there's a lot that don't change too often (Castro, Qaddafy, Kim Jong-il...people like that). Used to be a lot more that didn't change in the good old days of the Cold War...less work to remember.

[Trump]

My voting pamphlet has arrived! Huh. Hadn't realized there are eight presidential candidates.
There are like 16 on the Florida ballot. :boggled:

[Nights_into_dreams]

There are like 16 on the Florida ballot. :boggled:

That's because all you need is to be nominated at a national convention (even if it's held online) for a party that is recognized by the Sec. of State.

If you do write-in, you need 104k signatures.

[SlickWilly440]

So I missed the voting registration deadline....oh well.

[Swede]

Poll: Obama Opens 14-Point Lead on McCain (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/14/opinion/polls/main4522273.shtml?tag=topStory;topStoryHeadline)

Looks like all the hate coming out of the McCain camp recently is backfiring :)

[Samurai_Pooh]

Poll: Obama Opens 14-Point Lead on McCain (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/14/opinion/polls/main4522273.shtml?tag=topStory;topStoryHeadline)

Looks like all the hate coming out of the McCain camp recently is backfiring :)

So it seems.

How is McCain going to switch gears? is he going to start talking about how awesome his opponent is in order to reverse the trend?

is anybody else paranoid that there will be a 'whatever' effect that will lead to prejudiced voters voting differently then how they are polled. You know, hidden racial bias that will end up crippling Obama.

[Roxie]

You should beware of The Bradley Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_effect)

a proposed explanation for a discrepancy between voter opinion polls and election outcomes in American political campaigns when a white candidate and a non-white candidate run against each other.[2][3][4] Named for Tom Bradley, an African-American who lost the 1982 California governor's race despite being ahead in some voter polls, the Bradley effect refers to an tendency on the part of some voters to tell pollsters that they are undecided or likely to vote for a black candidate, and yet, on election day, vote for his/her white opponent.

The theory of the Bradley effect is that the inaccurate polls have been skewed by the phenomenon of social desirability bias.[5][6] Specifically, some white voters give inaccurate polling responses for fear that, by stating their true preference, they will open themselves to criticism of racial motivation. The reluctance to give accurate polling answers has sometimes extended to post-election exit polls as well. The race of the pollster conducting the interview may factor in to voters' answers.

[Swede]

I heard one guy saying that could actually go the other way too- people saying they'll vote McCain because of heavy pressure from their community, but when they get in the booth voting Obama. Ultimately, I don't think it's going to have a major impact. We'll see I suppose, but 14 points seems like it could be hard to overcome.

[Urameshi YuSooKey]

I heard one guy saying that could actually go the other way too- people saying they'll vote McCain because of heavy pressure from their community, but when they get in the booth voting Obama. Ultimately, I don't think it's going to have a major impact. We'll see I suppose, but 14 points seems like it could be hard to overcome.
Don't underestimate the racist vote. I have a feeling this will be a very close race.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

I think you guys are overestimating the racist vote. I don't remember the Bradley Effect really happening during the primaries and in the context of this election, economy trumps everything.

[Urameshi YuSooKey]

I think you guys are overestimating the racist vote. I don't remember the Bradley Effect really happening during the primaries and in the context of this election, economy trumps everything.
If it happened in California I'm damn sure the effect will be much stronger in other areas, especially swing states. A black candidate in the US constantly fights an uphill battle for acceptance. That why the McCain campaign is playing to the kind of voters that have those reservations about Obama. He shouldn't have to prove he's patriotic or 'prove' he's a Christian. If he says so, isn't that good enough. He is a US Senator FFS. He knows better than anyone that he has to have tough skin and never falter during the campaign becuase his comments would be more scrutinized than say, Palin, or even Joe Biden. I think his race has a big role in it.

[TygressVirgo]

Pro-lifers for Obama
http://www.newsweek.com/id/163896/page/1

An article I found interesting.

[Samurai_Pooh]

http://www.atom.com/spotlights/kung_fu_election/

thought this was kind of funny

[Swede]

If it happened in California I'm damn sure the effect will be much stronger in other areas, especially swing states. A black candidate in the US constantly fights an uphill battle for acceptance. That why the McCain campaign is playing to the kind of voters that have those reservations about Obama. He shouldn't have to prove he's patriotic or 'prove' he's a Christian. If he says so, isn't that good enough. He is a US Senator FFS. He knows better than anyone that he has to have tough skin and never falter during the campaign becuase his comments would be more scrutinized than say, Palin, or even Joe Biden. I think his race has a big role in it.


The problem is that crowd he's playing to is part of his base and so he's not getting any new votes. I don't think it's going to be able to stop the 14 point lead or whatever he's got.

[Roxie]

I think you guys are overestimating the racist vote. I don't remember the Bradley Effect really happening during the primaries and in the context of this election, economy trumps everything.
Yeah, but the primaries are not the BIG one. I know quite a few ppl who didn't vote in the primaries but wanted to wait till November

[RoxFontaine]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHrExRHZnm0

[Roxie]

I find it really hilarious when people in one line shout to the people in the other line "Get a job!"

It's like really? You're not looking that well employed standing out here either, genius.

[Micah the Great]

Ok... i've been keeping up with this thread for a long time... and it's quite interesting. But all these videos that half been being posted the last few pages are absolutely insane. I mean, i know everyone can clearly see that... but i am in far more than awe. In the back of my mind somewhere i seriously can't accept that these people are fucking real!

I grew up in Tennessee, which is obviously a red state. So, of course i tend to lean a bit conservation and whatnot... but i've honestly never really been too worried about politics, but this shit is getting ridiculous. McCain is just getting more and more scary by the day. I'm not super familiar with all of Obama's policies, but just the shear fact that he's not McCain makes him an unquestionably better choice. (or that he speaks clearly and thinks logically, and isn't an old, crazy man who can't do anything but spew out bullshit and fear mongering). Look at those videos and think about the mindset that is supporting McCain. It's total insanity! And i can't even believe Palin is a real person... after seeing her as VP pick on the news, and reading this and that about her for the past month, i just cannot fathom what kind of trouble we are about to get into if people don't use their fucking heads in this election.

Damn, i may not want to go back to the States after all this mess.

[TygressVirgo]

*snip*

I can't believe it either, scares the daylights out of me. Those videos are just something I can't even process.

[Urameshi YuSooKey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHrExRHZnm0
There's enough bigotry and hatred here to last a lifetime. Shit! Like I said before, the racist vote is strong with this country. Some of those same people outside of that atmosphere could easily say they are undecided or might vote for Obama.

[Plekto]

The difference is that Obama is actually only 50% "black" - but that's not really "black", either, as hsi father was from another country(no actual shared family history with slavery and the oppression and so on that followed in the U.S.)

So he's sort of immune to that factor I think. Also because McCain is such a rube and they figure the worst Obama could do is be a repeat of Carter. Ie - he's not an offensive choice and won't really derail their agenda. Next election they can maybe get someone who is a better choice.

[Plekto]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjYniYChX3k

This is funny and eerily true at the same time. You have to see this.

It really has turned into bizarro-world 2008.

[Arctic_Slicer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjYniYChX3k

This is funny and eerily true at the same time. You have to see this.

It really has turned into bizarro-world 2008.

Honestly I thought the debates had more resemblance to the Jack Johnson vs. John Jackson debate in Futurama. You see the two candidates on stage agreeing with each other on all issues of substance. When it comes to Afghanistan, our allegiance to Israel, gay rights or bailing out wall street there is a startling lack of substantive difference between Obama and McCain.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

A_S I remember you posting that you only watched 8 minutes in total of the debates and that was it.

[h2orowe]

The difference is that Obama is actually only 50% "black" - but that's not really "black", either, as hsi father was from another country(no actual shared family history with slavery and the oppression and so on that followed in the U.S.)
Racists won't care. He's an Ayrabe to them.

[haterllnation]

Okay, I see Biden (Robin). Is Palin going to be Poison Ivy?

[Plekto]

Racists won't care. He's an Ayrabe to them.

True, but the soft-core racists who are being discussed as a potential factor are seeing him as a sort of a wash either way. He's not quite black and he's not quite white in their minds, and with all the other crap going on right now, they're really not caring that much so it seems.

It's the moderates that are deciding this, and McCain is driving them away to the point where Obama's race is a minor factor at this point.

[sOkU]

Christopher Buckley is voting for Obama. WWWWWWWWWWWoooooowwwwww.

[Sackett]

He shouldn't have to prove he's patriotic or 'prove' he's a Christian. If he says so, isn't that good enough.
McCain shouldn't have to prove that his presidency will not be 4 more years of Bush. If he says so, isn't that good enough?

He knows better than anyone that he has to have tough skin and never falter during the campaign becuase his comments would be more scrutinized than say, Palin, or even Joe Biden.
Obama's comments will be scrutinized more than Palin's. You must be joking. I'm not sure which election you've been following but it's not this one.

[archdukezeb]

True, but the soft-core racists who are being discussed as a potential factor are seeing him as a sort of a wash either way. He's not quite black and he's not quite white in their minds,

But he is not quite white and not quite black.

[sOkU]

^ He's both.

[OliveButtercup]

McCain shouldn't have to prove that his presidency will not be 4 more years of Bush. If he says so, isn't that good enough?


Obama's comments will be scrutinized more than Palin's. You must be joking. I'm not sure which election you've been following but it's not this one.

No it's not good enough lol...wow. Here's why:

1. When George W was elected he inherited a $431 Billion surplus over the previous three budget years. Now, we're in a $734 Billion deficit over the previous three budget years.

2. When Bush first came into office, there were 1.76 Million new jobs created in the private sector per year over previous 8 Years, now there are 369,000 new jobs per year.

3. U.S. trade deficit in 2001 was $380 Billion, now it's $759 Billion.

4. McCain wants to continue the bullsh*t in Iraq, to do that, we need to continue to spend in excess of 10-12$ billion a month. The credit card is maxed. Barack wants to raise taxes on the 5% to pay for what he wants. McCain want to give tax cuts to big businesses. How are we going to pay for all this?

WE ARE BROKE. America's economy doesn't have the strength to go through another 4 years of bullshyt.

[Plekto]

But he is not quite white and not quite black.

Heh. True. But they don't really process the word "both" very well...

[archdukezeb]

Heh. True. But they don't really process the word "both" very well...

And alot of other people don't seem to process it well either. What would happen if you took all the articles on obama calling him black this black that or people in the news and replace everytime they say black with white and people would be like what the fuck. But it would be as equally true as calling him black. It's like were going back to some one drop rule shit.

[Roxie]

The difference is that Obama is actually only 50% "black" - but that's not really "black", either, as hsi father was from another country(no actual shared family history with slavery and the oppression and so on that followed in the U.S.)

But whiteness in this country is ubiquitous to be invisible.

[Arctic_Slicer]

A_S I remember you posting that you only watched 8 minutes in total of the debates and that was it.

I watched the first 8 minutes of the first debate before turning it off when it became apparent that it was going to be an hour and a half devoid of any real substance. Reading the debate transcripts led me to the conclusions I posted. Also I am currently streaming the current debate while I am typing this message. From what I have heard so far it seems like it will be more of the same. They talk about the "middle-class" but in the three debates so far there has not been a single mention of "poverty" and I have yet to hear it in this one. 1/3 of of the full-time workers in this country, 47 million people, are currently being paid $10.50 an hour or less; and neither of these candidates are addressing issues of poverty and instituting a living wage. They talk about taxes and tax-cuts but they aren't asking the question: "why are we taxing human labor?" There are many things in this country that we currently are not but can and should be taxing before we tax human labor and necessities of life. Neither of these candidates are raising these issues while candidates who would raise these issues are being unfairly excluded from these debates.

The debates hosted by the corporation known as the Commission of Presidential Debates are a sham that threatens the very fabric of our democracy. A far greater threat than "ACORN", which the two candidates spent way too much time discussing.

There is going to be a debate between Ralph Nader, Cynthia McKinney and Chuck Baldwin Sunday evening, October 19, at Columbia University in New York city. Amy Goodman will be moderating this debate. Barack Obama, John McCain, and Bob Barr were all invited but declined to participate. This debate will be broadcast on C-Span though it's uncertain if the broadcast will be live or not.

Unlike the debates hosted by the Commission of Presidential Debates this one hosted by Free and Equal (http://www.freeandequal.org/news.php?id=16) is far more likely to address the issues of substance such as the ones I talked about above.

[Urameshi YuSooKey]

And alot of other people don't seem to process it well either. What would happen if you took all the articles on obama calling him black this black that or people in the news and replace everytime they say black with white and people would be like what the fuck. But it would be as equally true as calling him black. It's like were going back to some one drop rule shit.
When did we ever go away from it?

Also, McCain blinks way to much, like he's lying to your face. lol

[Swede]

When did we ever go away from it?

Also, McCain blinks way to much, like he's lying to your face. lol

I noticed that too lol. Also, I'm pretty sure he winked at me.

Overall though, I thought this was easily both the most substantial as well as the most interesting debate, and, biased though I may be, I felt like Obama cleaned house and McCain didn't make the kind of impact he needed to change the race.

[sOkU]

^socialist

[RoxFontaine]

But he is not quite white and not quite black.

This is so ignorant!

[stsparky]

Isn't Obama simply Hawaiian? Why should being multiethnic matter?

[Kaji]

If he naturalized Indonesian it might matter...

And with that said, a major thank you to Joe the Plumber for getting Obama to state his real intentions re: wealth redistribution. "It's not that you didn't work hard for it, I just don't think everyone else should have to work that hard to get there!"

[TygressVirgo]

He can't claim to be Hawaiian when he has no ties to the Hawaiian bloodlines >.< (sorry this is kinda pet peeve of mine).

How can he claim to be Indonesian when he was born to an American mother?

[japanat]

^ Didn't he spend a fair amount of his childhood in Indonesia? But he couldn't be president if he were Indonesian, anyways.

Two points:
(1) The biography I saw on CNN said that Obama felt the need to identify with either his black heritage or his white heritage. Although he had been basically raised by his white grandparents, he began to identify more with his black background, because... (see $2)

(2) Racists don't see percentages. If he ain't all white (or if he ain't all black, for the other kind of racist), then he ain't white. And that is the attitude that keeps showing up in all these videos of McCain & Palin's reactionary audiences waiting on the sidewalk.

I'm glad to see that race isn't an issue for most people on this forum, but anyone who thinks it isn't an issue in redneck country isn't being realistic. That old lady McCain abraded for calling Obama an Arab/Muslim was probably really thinking that he was "a darkie".

[Kaji]

Adoptive father was Indonesian, he moved there early on and attended school there in an era where you couldn't attend school if you weren't a citizen, and dual citizenship wasn't allowed. Hence, by implication, he would have had to have given up his US citizenship to go to school there.

[japanat]

Son by marriage (I don't know if he was formally adopted or not, but think not) would be enough to gain him entrance in school.　　After all, Sukarno's wife was Japanese...

Besides, if he had renounced his citizenship (which a minor can't do without a major court case, anyways), don't you think the campaign attack dogs would have dug that up long ago? :duh:

[Roxie]

Worst video yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRqcfqiXCX0

[japanat]

Worse? Perhaps, but at least now there is some reporting of these people's "misconceptions".

Why don't CNN, Faux News, ABC, CBS, and NBC show stuff like this, then use it to correct the obvious fallacies? I honestly think that I get more accurate, balanced and insightful news on the election here in Japan than what folks are getting in the US. I think today's news companies would bury something like Watergate...

[Kaji]

Besides, if he had renounced his citizenship (which a minor can't do without a major court case, anyways), don't you think the campaign attack dogs would have dug that up long ago? :duh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhuToYz2KMA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC54PXA0jG0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOzFl-Gm_Kc

[Micah the Great]

Worst video yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRqcfqiXCX0
Dammit... DAMMIT! Why and how is this happening?! I couldn't have even have thought this kind of stuff up it's so ridiculous. They're just like 3rd graders... except much more dangerous.

[Urameshi YuSooKey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhuToYz2KMA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC54PXA0jG0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOzFl-Gm_Kc
And why does this matter? Keep a brotha out on a supposed technicality. People want to change the law when Arnold wants to run for President, but when Obama comes to the forefront we must keep him out by any means.

[Kaji]

Just pointing out the issue is in play. Further, if the birth certificate issue is true, then he's guilty of several crimes. I find it ironic that he's so willing to make demands of John McCain (birth certificate, medical records, school transcripts, etc.), yet when things are demanded of him he either flat says no, or agrees to do so when it can't have a bearing on the election. Much like the quote on the last page about why McCain must somehow prove himself while Obama shouldn't have to, double standards are running deep in this election.

On a somewhat related note, was anyone else here disturbed by Obama's comments bout the court case mentioned during the debate where it was dismissed by the statute of limitations and the Senate tried to get it tried anyway? The purpose of the court system is to interpret the law, not to legislate from the bench or ignore laws that are inconvenient. While it may start off as an act of benevolence, a lawyer, of all people ought to know that our whole legal system is grounded in something known as precedent. The statue of limitations is in place for a reason; if he doesn't think it serves a valid purpose, he should do his job as a senator and propose legislation to get it repealed. When judges can just ignore laws they don't like, nobody wins.

[OliveButtercup]

I think the fact that people are grasping at straws to try to find dirt on Obama is indicative of who's going to win 11/4.

[archdukezeb]

This is so ignorant!

How is that ignorarnt? To blanket say he is white or to blanket say he's black are both untrue.

[OliveButtercup]

How is that ignorarnt? To blanket say he is white or to blanket say he's black are both untrue.

It's ignorant because instead of staying focused on the issues at hand there are several postings discussing the trivial matter of: "gee, what should we say Barack's race is? black, or white or both?" WHO CARES. Our economy is going down the commode, are troops are already being trained and deployed to Afghanistan in larger numbers and all we all can discuss is whether or not someone's fully black or 1/2 white or what. :clap:

[mawande]

Why not go to Snopes? They've been researching this kind of thing exhaustively.

[PiccoloNamek]

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

[Digital Masta]

How is that ignorarnt? To blanket say he is white or to blanket say he's black are both untrue.

There is this...I've grown up with quite a few people who had one white parent and one black people and pretty much all of them while acknowledging that they have a white parent and white family tend to identify with being black. Once they do they've made the decision to take on all of what that comes with.

Hallie Berry's mother is white but she totally identifies with and considers herself black.

Also the outside world doesn't see a biracial person...they see a black person. Regardless that is what they will always see.

Obama has identified with being black and thats that. People get too caught up in the genetics sometimes. I mean really, what if I took a test and it came out that I was technically less black percentage wise than Obama...yet I have two black parents...does that not make me black anymore?

[Kaji]

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOzFl-Gm_Kc

2 minutes in. Verification by a group you've sat on the board of and sent money to hardly counts as verification.

[PiccoloNamek]

Did you even read the article or look at the photographs? The videos on Youtube reek of conspiracy theory tripe and have no credibility whatsoever. You would think if it was actually a big deal some major news organization would have picked up on it by now. But I've heard nothing. Hmm...

[Arctic_Slicer]

Did you even read the article or look at the photographs? The videos on Youtube reek of conspiracy theory tripe and have no credibility whatsoever. You would think if it was actually a big deal some major news organization would have picked up on it by now. But I've heard nothing. Hmm...

No credibility? Philip J. Berg is not some guy on the street; he is a former deputy attorney general in Pennsylvania and the lawsuit he filed on August 21st is real. (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2066207/posts) I heard about this back in August when the suit was filed and figured that his credentials would have been proven in a matter of days. However instead of releasing his birth certificate to the courts to verify it's authenticity the DNC instead filled a motion to dismiss the suit. This to me seems kind of suspicious; if there is nothing to hide why not simply provide the documents to prove his eligibility to run for president? Releasing his birth certificate to an independent website that may have conflicts of interests is not the same as releasing it to a court of law. There is nothing unreasonable about wanting to know if our candidates are eligible to become president. I don't care if their name is Barack Obama, John McCain or Ralph Nader; it is not too much to ask that they prove their eligibility to be president.

[archdukezeb]

It's ignorant because instead of staying focused on the issues at hand there are several postings discussing the trivial matter of: "gee, what should we say Barack's race is? black, or white or both?" WHO CARES. Our economy is going down the commode, are troops are already being trained and deployed to Afghanistan in larger numbers and all we all can discuss is whether or not someone's fully black or 1/2 white or what. :clap:

It's a damn discussion thread. We aren't a bunch of jurors deliberating a case. Seriously how many people on here have not made up there mind about who they are voting for or could have there mind changed by something someone wrote in this thread.

Also I was not the one bringing up the issue of race or some Bradley effect bullshit.

There is this...I've grown up with quite a few people who had one white parent and one black people and pretty much all of them while acknowledging that they have a white parent and white family tend to identify with being black. Once they do they've made the decision to take on all of what that comes with.

Hallie Berry's mother is white but she totally identifies with and considers herself black.

Also the outside world doesn't see a biracial person...they see a black person. Regardless that is what they will always see.

Obama has identified with being black and thats that. People get too caught up in the genetics sometimes. I mean really, what if I took a test and it came out that I was technically less black percentage wise than Obama...yet I have two black parents...does that not make me black anymore?

And this is bullshit too because look he was raised by his white parent and also raised in Indonesia. So in that time if he identified with whites or Indonesians and he had never been around a lot of black people that means he isn't black then? But when he starts being around black people and identifying with that side of his culture that makes him that race? What about a white dude who isn't black at all but grew up around blacks and identifies with them does that make him black? Basically what you said about the outside world just seeing him as black is my point. This isn't the time of segregation and there isn't any one drop rule so making blanket generalizations about people is bullshit.

[Roxie]

Just pointing out the issue is in play. Further, if the birth certificate issue is true, then he's guilty of several crimes. I find it ironic that he's so willing to make demands of John McCain (birth certificate, medical records, school transcripts, etc.), yet when things are demanded of him he either flat says no, or agrees to do so when it can't have a bearing on the election. Much like the quote on the last page about why McCain must somehow prove himself while Obama shouldn't have to, double standards are running deep in this election.

But Obama has put his birth certificate (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/06/obama-birth.html) on the the internet for all to see.

[puzzo]

His middle name is Hussein, he is evil.

Oh and I lurk this topic alot, but this will probably be my only post in it. I dislike most political discussions.

[Jetsetlemming]

But whiteness in this country is ubiquitous to be invisible.
This is an amazingly awful way to word it, but for Obama it's true. It doesn't matter if he's part white or anything- he's black. He's got a dark skin tone, so he's black to everyone. Debating the little details of his heritage is stupid when what people are going to view him as is right in front of your faces.

[Swede]

Also, did anyone else notice how McCain almost never said "Pro-Choice" but always "Pro-Abortion"? That kinda pissed me off, for reasons I've already said in other threads.

[Jetsetlemming]

Also, did anyone else notice how McCain almost never said "Pro-Choice" but always "Pro-Abortion"? That kinda pissed me off, for reasons I've already said in other threads.
"How dare he not use our phrase that paints us in a positive light while attacking us!" :bored:

He could've said "Anti-life" would you prefer that more

[h2orowe]

Ooh, I like anti-life. Makes liberals sound like something that should be feared.

[Swede]

"How dare he not use our phrase that paints us in a positive light while attacking us!" :bored:

He could've said "Anti-life" would you prefer that more

You didn't hear Obama using Anti-Choice, did you?

The point isn't that it doesn't paint pro-choicers in a positive light, it's that it's totally misleading in making it seem as though people take that position because they like abortions. I'm not pro-choice because I think people should be getting more abortions or that abortions are a good thing. I'm pro-choice because I think it should be a woman's CHOICE what she does with her body and, like Obama was saying, women are the one's most capable of making that decision, not the government.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

Because it's misleading is the exact reason why McCain and others who share his view refer to it as "pro-abortion" instead of "pro-choice". If he calls it "pro-choice" then he's acknowledging it's an issue of women's rights and choice.

I don't think it really matters though, he totally bombed the abortion part of the debate compared to Obama.

[Digital Masta]

And this is bullshit too because look he was raised by his white parent and also raised in Indonesia. So in that time if he identified with whites or Indonesians and he had never been around a lot of black people that means he isn't black then? But when he starts being around black people and identifying with that side of his culture that makes him that race? What about a white dude who isn't black at all but grew up around blacks and identifies with them does that make him black? Basically what you said about the outside world just seeing him as black is my point. This isn't the time of segregation and there isn't any one drop rule so making blanket generalizations about people is bullshit.

What are you talking about? (for the bolded part)

There is one thing that the white person who grew up around black people cannot do that Obama can and thats experience life around the world and in America as a BLACK PERSON. That is what it means to indentify with being black. That shared experience.

Although I'm not really going to explain it further because I can already see that you just don't get it.

[OliveButtercup]

It's a damn discussion thread. We aren't a bunch of jurors deliberating a case. Seriously how many people on here have not made up there mind about who they are voting for or could have there mind changed by something someone wrote in this thread.

Also I was not the one bringing up the issue of race or some Bradley effect bullshit.



And this is bullshit too because look he was raised by his white parent and also raised in Indonesia. So in that time if he identified with whites or Indonesians and he had never been around a lot of black people that means he isn't black then? But when he starts being around black people and identifying with that side of his culture that makes him that race? What about a white dude who isn't black at all but grew up around blacks and identifies with them does that make him black? Basically what you said about the outside world just seeing him as black is my point. This isn't the time of segregation and there isn't any one drop rule so making blanket generalizations about people is bullshit.

I'm aware this is a "damn discussion thread". However, there's no need to take what I said as a personal attack, neither did I imply you were the only one bringing up race. My point was that I have scrolled the last several pages and this is what is still being talked about. Interesting. I have come back to OP9 only to find it hasn't changed much.

[Beowulf]

But Obama has put his birth certificate on the the internet for all to see.
Facts and logic don't faze Kaji.


And this is bullshit too because look he was raised by his white parent and also raised in Indonesia. So in that time if he identified with whites or Indonesians and he had never been around a lot of black people that means he isn't black then? But when he starts being around black people and identifying with that side of his culture that makes him that race? What about a white dude who isn't black at all but grew up around blacks and identifies with them does that make him black? Basically what you said about the outside world just seeing him as black is my point. This isn't the time of segregation and there isn't any one drop rule so making blanket generalizations about people is bullshit.
This post was a pretty bad idea dude fyi.

[Kaji]

Facts and logic don't faze Kaji.

Likewise, Roxie doesn't click links, apparently. The issue of the birth certificate being posted and "independently verified" was addressed in the stuff I posted.

[archdukezeb]

What are you talking about? (for the bolded part)

There is one thing that the white person who grew up around black people cannot do that Obama can and thats experience life around the world and in America as a BLACK PERSON. That is what it means to indentify with being black. That shared experience.

Although I'm not really going to explain it further because I can already see that you just don't get it.

Thank you for schooling me on what it's like to be black in America. I obviously didn't get it.

FYI I am black.

And sorry olivebuttercup I didn't mean to come off that hostile. Didn't really mean to take up space with this discussion. Just wanted do make my point but it kinda turned into an argument.

edit: From Langston Hughes:
"You see, unfortunately, I am not black. There are lots of different kinds of blood in our family. But here in the United States, the word 'Negro' is used to mean anyone who has any Negro blood at all in his veins. In Africa, the word is more pure. It means all Negro, therefore black. I am brown."
I was just hoping we'd progress somewhat in half a century but I guess we haven't.

[sOkU]

Ooh, I like anti-life. Makes liberals sound like something that should be feared.

Are you implying that all liberals are pro-choice? Hmmm..

And yeah, Mccain did pretty bad.

[TygressVirgo]

Kaji - I watched those videos, and the one question that kept coming back to me was . . .

Is the Mccain campaign questioning the validity of Obama's birth certificate? Considering it would completely destroy Obama's Campaign if it is in violation, how come no one is screaming in outrage? Why is this not on the major networks?

I can't help but doubt those vids, for several reasons, however given the things I have seen come from some of the people supporting Mccains campaign, it makes me think this is grasping at straws (i believe that is the phrase).

[Trump]

The question about the negative campaign ads was kinda funny. They both talked around it and refused to admit they were running negative campaigns. Even the moderator looked kinda dumbfounded by that one. I mean, he couldn't just say outright that they were lying... heh

[Swede]

Are you implying that all liberals are pro-choice?

All liberals aren't anything. Different stances are generally perceived as being liberal or conservative. Pro-life is a conservative stance, pro-choice is a liberal one.

[Plekto]

What about "get your government hands off of my body".

Oh, wait - that's Libertarians that take that stance... And 3/4 of the other third parties running.

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

If you honestly think that there is any real controversy in Obama's citizenship then you're a goddamned idiot.

[Kaji]

If there's no real issue, then how come he-who-demands-everyone-else's-records won't provide his own proving it?

[stsparky]

McCain was not born in the states.

[Urameshi YuSooKey]

^ Because he was born in the Panama Canal zone?

[Roxie]

If there's no real issue, then how come he-who-demands-everyone-else's-records won't provide his own proving it?
except for the fact that he already did?

[stsparky]

http://wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/mccain_eyebrows.gif
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3168/2947716384_c10cdf9a73.jpg
Pray.

Barry Eisler observes:

As I mentioned above, polls show that McCain's negativity is killing him. So either his people are in denial about what the polls show, or McCain simply can't help himself. Neither explanation makes me comfortable with the notion of a President McCain. Do you want in the Oval Office someone in denial, surrounded by others in denial (does that sound a bit... deja vu?). Do you want someone who can't stop himself from engaging in behavior that he knows is bad for him, who has that little control over himself? I don't.

At one point, Obama said the health of the economy is critical because never in history has there been a country whose economy declined and who maintained its military primacy. Fair enough, but I find troubling the notion that our economic health is important primarily because we need a healthy economy to retain military superiority. Surely there are more important reasons for a healthy economy than the maintenance of military strength? On the issue of Imperial America, Obama doesn't strike me as about Change at all.

Part of what consistently hurts McCain in these campaigns is how obviously nervous he is. Look how much he blinks. Blinking is a classic sign of nervousness, and is also associated with lying. Whether viewers are consciously aware of it or not, over the course of three debates and innumerable interviews, McCain comes across as either afraid of Obama or deceptive or both. Neither quality is something many people want to see in a president.

[Kaji]

except for the fact that he already did?

To an organization with a conflict of interest. When asked to do the same in a court of law he instead files a motion for dismissal on the deadline.

At one point, Obama said the health of the economy is critical because never in history has there been a country whose economy declined and who maintained its military primacy.

Ironically, according to Obama's logic this means that the Weimar Republic had a booming economy in its day!

[RoxFontaine]

^ Because he was born in the Panama Canal zone?

Exactly. Let's go back to February.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html

A few key passages for you:

"Ms. Duggin and others who have explored the arcane subject in depth say legal argument and basic fairness may indeed be on the side of Mr. McCain, a longtime member of Congress from Arizona. But multiple experts and scholarly reviews say the issue has never been definitively resolved by either Congress or the Supreme Court."

- I wonder if McCain would elect one of those experts or scholars to the Supreme Court.

"It also surfaced in the 1968 candidacy of George Romney, who was born in Mexico, but again was not tested. The former Connecticut politician Lowell P. Weicker Jr., born in Paris, sought a legal analysis when considering the presidency, an aide said, and was assured he was eligible. Franklin D. Roosevelt Jr. was once viewed as a potential successor to his father, but was seen by some as ineligible since he had been born on Campobello Island in Canada. The 21st president, Chester A. Arthur, whose birthplace is Vermont, was rumored to have actually been born in Canada, prompting some to question his eligibility."

Hmmm. Interesting.

Furthermore, take into an account this scenario. Two children are born to two separate active duty military families stationed overseas. One of the children is born in the installation hospital. The other, due to concerns about quality of care by the parents, is birthed in a civilian hospital. Could both of them run for President of the United States?

[Fermented Yeast Paste]

Kaji why don't you go straight to the source and contact the Department of Health in Hawaii to confirm to yourself that they don't have authentic records to indicate Obama wasn't born on American soil.

[japanat]

Ironically, according to Obama's logic this means that the Weimar Republic had a booming economy in its day!Jesus, twist it a little, will you? To historians, the Weimar Republic ended on the day Hitler assumed the Chancellory of Germany. There was no economy, Reichsmarks were only worth as much bread as they could cover.

Re: the birth certificate. If any of the courts, including the election commission, believed Obama's birth certificate were false, they would be raising holy hell, count on it. Just because someone filed a motion doesn't make it real. Nor does Obama wish to waste the time addressing it. Imagine the spin: "Obama in court to prove citizenship!" Filing a motion to dismiss is smarter.

Kind of funny, though. I got my absentee ballot last night, and Colorado has 16 parties on the ballot for president. 16! Who the hell are the HeartQuake'08 Party and the Boston Tea Party (pretty good one there!)?1402
the photo's pretty fuzzy, sorry!

[PiccoloNamek]

Hehe, Boston Tea Party. I got a big kick out of that one.

[TygressVirgo]

Has anyone found anything similar to the vids from the mccain/palin rallies on the obama/biden side? My aunt seriously tried to claim that palin is getting attacked just as much . . .

[Arctic_Slicer]

Kind of funny, though. I got my absentee ballot last night, and Colorado has 16 parties on the ballot for president. 16! Who the hell are the HeartQuake'08 Party and the Boston Tea Party (pretty good one there!)?1402
the photo's pretty fuzzy, sorry!

Colorado has the most lax ballot access laws in the whole country. Anyone who is willing to pay $500 can be listed as a candidate. The other extreme is Oklahoma which almost always has only two candidates on the ballot and does not allow for write-in candidacies. Ballot access laws like the ones Oklahoma has should be considered unconstitutional is it interferes with a candidate's constitutional right to run for elected office. Unfortunately more and more states are moving closer to the trend of Oklahoma instead of Colorado. This is why Ralph Nader is only listed on 46 ballots; It literally takes a multi-million dollar effort for an independent candidate to be listed in on all 51 ballots. Fortunately most states still do allow candidates to register as a write-in so that people who know about that person's candidacy can cast a valid write-in vote for them. In addition to being on 46 ballots Ralph Nader has registered as a valid write-in candidate for 4 others; with Oklahoma being the only place a person cannot cast a vote for him. For more information on Ballot Access I recommend checking out Ballot Access News (http://www.ballot-access.org/) as well as the well the Wikipedia (http://www.wikipedia.org/) that lists all 2008 USA presidential candidates including write-ins. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_presidential_candidates)

The thing I found most amusing from the Wikipedia list is the fact that someone took the time to fill out the paper work to register Santa Claus as a valid write-in candidate in West Virginia. Go Santa Claus!

[stsparky]

Has anyone found anything similar to the vids from the mccain/palin rallies on the obama/biden side? My aunt seriously tried to claim that palin is getting attacked just as much . . .
No. She's been using her Secret Service guys to badger the press though.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/16/secret-service-blocking-r_n_135336.html

“ ... Right wing lunatics, felons, bombers and advocates of violence seem to be okay. They actually get radio talk shows. Their past is forgotten, or even forgiven. All too many Americans actually look at them as heroes and don't have a problem with them paling around with Republican candidates. Oliver North gets a TV show. He was rewarded by right wing welfare after being indicted on 16 felony counts for his role in Iran Contra. Right wing media is littered with felons and advocates of violence. ... And religious zealots? Another double standard there. Wright was on our TV screens 24/7, for months on end. But was there the same kind of scrutiny towards Hagee, Parsley, Robertson, Falwell? No way. ... And conservatives have the nerve to complain about "liberal bias."...

News - Troopergate Investigator Getting Confidential Docs (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/17/troopergate-investigator_n_135527.html)

[TygressVirgo]

Several videos have been posted of people being racist bigots while being at republican rallies, I was wondering if anything occurred like that with democratic rallies.

My aunt and I got into this discussion when I brought up how Palin allows some really terrible things at the rallies, but doesn't correct them or say anything. She seriously told me with a straight face that the same things happens on the democratic side. She even went further to say that Palin can't be expected to correct every crazy that comes to her rallies.

Thats the type of video I am wondering if it exists. Personally, if it did exist, I would think it would be all over the news and the republicans would be out for blood.

[ak24]

Does anyone of you know if an Independent Party or Libertarian Party ever won an election?