Boys walk free over DVD sex assault

[Roxie]

Eight teenagers who raped a girl on camera and distributed the DVD — titled “Cunt the Movie” — throughout their community are serving less than two years.. in therapy (http://au.news.yahoo.com/071017/2/14p2u.html). During the assault (trigger warning):

The girl was filmed performing oral sex on two boys, had her hair set alight, was spat at and urinated on during the incident at a park at Werribee, in Melbourne’s outer-west, in June last year.

But they apologized. What more do you want?

[Candyvan Stan]

Well, the important thing is they apologized.

[belladonna]

all they get is therapy?!?! that's horrible, she's the one that's going to half to go through therapy for years

[SlickWilly440]

Only in Australia right?

[rl*united]

I guess that`s what the law allows for these events when kids 15-17 are involved. I think they should sue the parents instead. Sentence the kids to 2-3 years in a child prison or whatever that`s called and sentence the parents as well to like 5 years of probation and a hefty tax. Anyhow I don`t think the parents should be completely ignored by law in these situations.

[belladonna]

you can't blame the parents for what the children did, by that point they know what they are doing... and they should get maximum penalty. at least in america they probably would have been tried as adults for this

[rl*united]

you can't blame the parents for what the children did, by that point they know what they are doing... and they should get maximum penalty. at least in america they probably would have been tried as adults for this

Oh yeah right - so a kid screws up and goes to prison for 10 years that`s very understandable eight kids moreover. I`m not defending them but sending them to prison won`t change anything besides turning them into real criminals. That`s fucked up reasoning - eye for an eye and no practicality whatsoever. Your prisons aren`t doing any rehabilitation as it is now just plain retribution. At least kids have the chance to be changed for what that counts.

There`s ways to make a criminal suffer without ruining his life. Make him do the hardest work deprive him of anything you call commodity force him into the toughest educational system for 3-5 years. What good is it to anyone if he spends 20 years of his life hanging around in jail. He`ll be out as the same person he was before only made stronger by anything he might have experienced in jail.

And you can blame the parents for being fuck-ups you can blaim the older children for luring the younger into it. And kids screw up - that`s the fact. You can`t consider that a fully realised act of crime. Kids may understand concepts just as well as adults but experience teaches attitude. Kids don`t have life experience. That`s why their reasoning isn`t put on the same level as that of adults.

[Roxie]

Make him do the hardest work deprive him of anything you call commodity force him into the toughest educational system for 3-5 years.
Uh, minus "the toughest educational system", that IS what prisoners do.
But why couldn't they incarcerate and have them in therapy?

[SlickWilly440]

It's there some prisons in some European countries where it's actually more a confined vacation resort than a prison?

[rl*united]

It's there some prisons in some European countries where it's actually more a confined vacation resort than a prison?

If you believe that a prison should force even more anger into criminals than they already have towards society and the system then go ahead and make their lives hell. I`m not saying that it should be a hotel or a torturing chamber.

Hard labor and education can make a difference if four walls and 20 years can`t.
I`m saying less time more work done in that time.

Uh, minus "the toughest educational system", that IS what prisoners do.
But why couldn't they incarcerate and have them in therapy?

Yeah they should be incarcerated. For 3-5 years depending on their age. Then give them therapy and a general reason to live. People who have a motivation to work towards a goal in life usually don`t have the time to fuck their lives up. Or at least they`re afraid of ruining their lives. A kid usually doesn`t care about his life and doesn`t think ahead for more than a day or two. It`s fairly easy to throw away something you don`t value in the first place. Later they suffer and repent but they don`t realize the magnitude of what they have done until even that day ahead they used to have to themselves is taken away.

[belladonna]

Oh yeah right - so a kid screws up and goes to prison for 10 years that`s very understandable eight kids moreover. I`m not defending them but sending them to prison won`t change anything besides turning them into real criminals. That`s fucked up reasoning - eye for an eye and no practicality whatsoever. Your prisons aren`t doing any rehabilitation as it is now just plain retribution. At least kids have the chance to be changed for what that counts.

There`s ways to make a criminal suffer without ruining his life. Make him do the hardest work deprive him of anything you call commodity force him into the toughest educational system for 3-5 years. What good is it to anyone if he spends 20 years of his life hanging around in jail. He`ll be out as the same person he was before only made stronger by anything he might have experienced in jail.

And you can blame the parents for being fuck-ups you can blaim the older children for luring the younger into it. And kids screw up - that`s the fact. You can`t consider that a fully realised act of crime. Kids may understand concepts just as well as adults but experience teaches attitude. Kids don`t have life experience. That`s why their reasoning isn`t put on the same level as that of adults.
Rape is not "screw[ing] up," rape is a crime that should be heavily punished. They lit her hair on fire and urinated on her. you call that "screwing up"?! what kind of society is that a simple slip-up? In an industrialized nation no one should have to blame the parents, at that age they are grown into themselves enough that they know what they are doing, it is not a simple question of them messing up! They ruined that girl's reputation, and there is the possibilty of mental problems after a trauma of this sort. They should be locked away and get the help they need and be put away from society

[rl*united]

Rape is not "screw[ing] up," rape is a crime that should be heavily punished. They lit her hair on fire and urinated on her. you call that "screwing up"?! what kind of society is that a simple slip-up? In an industrialized nation no one should have to blame the parents, at that age they are grown into themselves enough that they know what they are doing, it is not a simple question of them messing up! They ruined that girl's reputation, and there is the possibilty of mental problems after a trauma of this sort. They should be locked away and get the help they need and be put away from society

Industrialized society? What are you talking about? Industry and income as a sign for moral advancement? Quite the opposite really.

And as I said kids don`t think beyond the conseqences of their actions. They hardly have anything to value in their life so they don`t value the lives of others. It`s not that complicated either - if you never had to work for money you don`t value money as much tend to spend it on useless things. If you don`t expect anything from life other than the day`s amusement you`re likely to waste it all in a day trying to amuse yourself.

Children don`t have a practicle reason to value morals. They are taught morals by their parents and only follow them out of two things fear of authority and motivation for a reward. Children don`t have the experience to value morals for what they are. So they might understand the concept of a crime but there`s nothing to stop them from doing it if they want to. You`re not afraid of jail when you`re 15. That`s because you`ve hardly had anything in your previous life to lose.

I`m not saying they shouldn`t be punished. But years in jail - more than five - isn`t an adequate punishment. Hard work and discipline within a system based on authority and reason on the other hand is one.

[Roxie]

At 15, I clearly understood why and how rape was wrong.

[rl*united]

At 15, I clearly understood why and how rape was wrong.

A 3 year old can repeat the phrase "Rape is wrong." if it was taught to learn it by heart. Experience and not beliefs is what makes an adult superior to a teenager.

I assume you had things to care about and a meaningful life in general even at the age of 15. And that`s the parents part of the story. Many juvenile criminals have been left to deal with life by themselves ignored by their parents. So they don`t have any authority to fear they despise the system and have nothing long-term to aim towards and nothing to care about. So why should they care about hurting themselves on account of committing a crime.

Do you think it`s only their fault that they`re ticking time-bombs to society? I certainly don`t think so. Do you believe a kid could be evil and jaded by default? No and that`s why laws don`t apply fully to people under the age of 18. The judicial system assumes that they hadn`t had the experience to care about the consequences of their actions. So they`re in the full control of their parents to prevent them from doing anything they might not regret now but regret later in life when they`ve seen what life is about. IF their parents are able to control them.

[nanashi]

Oh dear god, I can't believe that inurl is arguing over something like this. At 15 I knew rape was bad. At 12 I knew rape was bad. Most children understand consequences, and I can say I knew any type of harming someone was bad since I was at least five. To say kids (let alone 15 year old that are nearly adults) don't understand morals or what is harmful is completly ridiculous.

Parents don't make the choices for their children. You don't even know the situation between the parents. Parents do not always know what their kids are doing even when they ask - teenagers lie. You don't know how they were raised.

In an above post you said 10 years of jail will make them 'into real criminals'. They are real criminals. Doing that to a girl isn't like stealing from the supermarket as either they knew completely what they have done while they were doing it or they were on some wicked hardcore drugs. Either way they even sold a DVD of it. They knew what they were doing and knew it was wrong.

Although I've noticed trying to have as serious dicussion with you when you say soemthing ignorant is usually pointless because you'll change your opinion hen proven wrong. :/

[ZaichikArky]

It's there some prisons in some European countries where it's actually more a confined vacation resort than a prison?

No, you mixed it up with California.

Yeah, this is pretty fucked up. They kids should definitely have had a stronger punishment, definitely 5 years in juvy at LEAST.

I agree that the parents should in no way be responsible for their child's behaviors. Some parents really try so hard to raise their children well, but still their kids fuck up and do shit like that. I'm pretty damn sure that none of these kids parents were spewing "oh yeah, son, it's a great feeling to dehumanize and rape women!"

[Your Mom]

As a teenage girl, if I lived in that area, I would want those kids locked up.
That wasn't an accident.
Those are some messed up kids.
D;

[rl*united]

Oh dear god, I can't believe that inurl is arguing over something like this. At 15 I knew rape was bad. At 12 I knew rape was bad. Most children understand consequences, and I can say I knew any type of harming someone was bad since I was at least five. To say kids (let alone 15 year old that are nearly adults) don't understand morals or what is harmful is completely ridiculous.

Parents don't make the choices for their children. You don't even know the situation between the parents. Parents do not always know what their kids are doing even when they ask - teenagers lie. You don't know how they were raised.

In an above post you said 10 years of jail will make them 'into real criminals'. They are real criminals. Doing that to a girl isn't like stealing from the supermarket as either they knew completely what they have done while they were doing it or they were on some wicked hardcore drugs. Either way they even sold a DVD of it. They knew what they were doing and knew it was wrong.

Although I've noticed trying to have as serious discussion with you when you say something ignorant is usually pointless because you'll change your opinion when proven wrong. :/

Doing that to a girl in their world equals setting a cat on fire - it`s just a laugh and that`s how cruel kids can be. And I`m sorry that the whole judicial system is proving you wrong but kids can`t be judged by adult standards.

What`s retarded is you telling me that a kid can be a criminal and that 10 years in jail will do anything to fix that.

There`s a saying that your life is meaningless until you find something worth dieing for. This is what I have based my argument on. Kids have no reason to follow the rules of adults other than fear or greed for affection because the reasons to follow the rules of society cannot be transfered via teachings of right and wrong. Only through it`s own experience a child becomes an adult.

And until it is one there`s no reason for a child to be judged by the standards that adults put up for themselves. Children don`t even make real choices - they are influenced by their environment to choose whatever the environment gives them. If it`s not the parent`s environment then it could be anything else - drugs, stealing rape or murder. A parent makes a choice for his child by setting up it`s environment so that the choice seems the only one that`s reasonable and fair.

Frankly I believe that you have no understanding whatsoever for the child`s psyche but rather speak out of being angry with the seriousness of the topic. I`ve said that I`m not defending the bunch but you felt like missing that out just because it didn`t fit your feeling of anger. I`ve said that I support a reasonable and constructive verdict but you disregard that because it doesn`t fit your desire for retribution. So why am I the bad one if I want to make this thread into more than a rephrasal of the universal truth that "the world is a horrible place" full of pity for the victim but lacking any understanding for the cause of the event.

If you feel like there`s nothing to do about a 15,16, or 17 year old to reeducate him besides throwing him in jail for a prolonged period of time then I feel like disagreeing with you. Sorry if that makes me the bad one out of the bunch.

[nanashi]

I'm not going to even bother with a reply to your post because well.. it made me lol. I also don't feel like getting in a long winded paragraph upon paragraph of opinions changing typing war. I'm sure someone else will do that for me.

Either way, your opinions are wrong. :)

[Roxie]

Doing that to a girl in their world equals setting a cat on fire - it`s just a laugh and that`s how cruel kids can be.
So violating another human being, lighting their hair on fire, urinating on them, putting it on dvd and distrubiting through out the community (the same one I'm sure she lives in) IS EQUAL TO SETTING A CAT ON FIRE?!

Kids have no reason to follow the rules of adults other than fear or greed for affection because the reasons to follow the rules of society cannot be transfered via teachings of right and wrong.
Bullshit.
Maybe when it comes to "smaller" crimes, like shoplifting, taking Tiffany's crayon or something similiar...but when it comes purposefully trying to destroy another human being...nah.

Children don`t even make real choices - they are influenced by their environment to choose whatever the environment gives them...A parent makes a choice for his child by setting up it`s environment so that the choice seems the only one that`s reasonable and fair.
So they were influenced by their environment to rape and torture another person? And b/c they're "incapable" of making a "real" choice, it's ALL their parent's fault?

let me remind you, 15yrs old was the YOUNGEST of the offenders.


Frankly I believe that you have no understanding whatsoever for the child`s psyche but rather speak out of being angry with the seriousness of the topic.
Being that I have been a child for most of my life, I do understand the psyche of a child. And perhaps you missed the point where I said I UNDERSTOOD WHY rape was wrong when I was 15. That means I knew more than "rape is wrong", but that I knew "rape is wrong because of a, b, and c".

I`ve said that I support a reasonable and constructive verdict but you disregard that because it doesn`t fit your desire for retribution. So why am I the bad one if I want to make this thread into more than a rephrasal of the universal truth that "the world is a horrible place" full of pity for the victim but lacking any understanding for the cause of the event.
That's not why!

I am a huge supporter of understanding how one's environment can affect the choices and behavior of the people who live in it, however, that does NOT absolve everything! Things like this.

[Candyvan Stan]

Although I've noticed trying to have as serious dicussion with you when you say soemthing ignorant is usually pointless because you'll change your opinion hen proven wrong. :/

Is that not actually a good thing? What's the point of discussing when people simply do not give in? You'd be debating against a brick wall. I for one welcome people who have the courage to change their opinions because they're willing to learn from others who have more insight on the subjects.

[rl*united]

So violating another human being, lighting their hair on fire, urinating on them, putting it on dvd and distrubiting through out the community (the same one I'm sure she lives in) IS EQUAL TO SETTING A CAT ON FIRE?!

For a kid it is.

Bullshit.
Maybe when it comes to "smaller" crimes, like shoplifting, taking Tiffany's crayon or something similiar...but when it comes purposefully trying to destroy another human being...nah.

To a kid it all comes from the same desires to rebel and the same lack of real experience which doesn`t mean they don`t understand simple cause and effect but because they lack the experience they have no reason to fear the actual effects. A kid doesn`t really need a Tiffany`s handbag to look cool - actually a schoolgirl with a 2000USD handbag would look plain hillarious. But that`s not how they reason they just want the bag stronger than they fear getting caught.

So they were influenced by their environment to rape and torture another person? And b/c they're "incapable" of making a "real" choice, it's ALL their parent's fault?

Well, yes. A 15 years old behavior can`t be based on experience thus it must be based on something. You tell me what it is based on. And cut the free will shit a 15 year old a Nietzsche does not make. If anything a kid`s actions and choices are a reflection of it`s surrounding. Kids learn by interaction not divine intervention and God instilling morals in them. So you might say that whatever it is they interact with the most will have the greatest effect on their personalities. And in that respect it`s the parent`s fault if the kids end up learning more from the street than they are learning at home.

let me remind you, 15yrs old was the YOUNGEST of the offenders.

Yeah I know.... read the above passage one more time cuz I don`t feel like rewriting it.

Being that I have been a child for most of my life, I do understand the psyche of a child. And perhaps you missed the point where I said I UNDERSTOOD WHY rape was wrong when I was 15. That means I knew more than "rape is wrong", but that I knew "rape is wrong because of a, b, and c".

You say understanding I say experience. It`s to my advantage that adulthood is actually given at a certain age - hence at a set level of life experience and not determined with an IQ test or a history exam to prove understanding....

That's not why!



I am a huge supporter of understanding how one's environment can affect the choices and behavior of the people who live in it, however, that does NOT absolve everything! Things like this.

I wasn`t reffering to you but rather to nana. I hope she doesn`t hate me too much ;)

[PopCulturePooka]

Just an FYI, the Age of Consent in Australia is 16.

And this is a huge msicarriage of justice IMO.

The Sydney Lebanese Gang Rapers got huge life sentences for their crimes.

These disgusting white boys, some of which have actually shown no remorse for their crime, get to see a shrink?

These kids have been shown to have laughed about their deeds, in court, in public and on their myspace, AFTER the news got out.

Two of them even boasted, after the news about the rape and DVD's, on their myspace that they are fucking famous now.

The most excellent thing about them walking the streets is they are publically known, even if the courts tried to hide their ID's.


Hopefully someone rapes them. With a pickaxe. In their eyeballs.

[PopCulturePooka]

BTW, raping the girl is not the only thing these guys did.

They vandalised Taxi cabs, made dangerous bombs and set a homeless man on fire. There is also talk taht a second TV shows the boys breaking and entering into peoples house ans shitting into their property.

The girl was 'groomed' by two of the boys on MSN before meeting her (illegal as well). She also suffers from intellectual and mental impairments.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKqcGyE_WJ8

[/|/@/|/@し]

Is that not actually a good thing? What's the point of discussing when people simply do not give in? You'd be debating against a brick wall. I for one welcome people who have the courage to change their opinions because they're willing to learn from others who have more insight on the subjects.

If I felt like debating it would be good but I stated my opinion and said that I didn't feel like it. I know him on and off the forum and would rather debate with him in the IRC chatroom (which I have) because it's easier to follow what he is saying. Plus the whole saying my opinion is retarded is a big turn off.

Please notice I also directed my comment towards him and not debating in general because I'd rather not deal with tl;dr posts that last for pages with him just repeating himself. It's not an attack at him but I noticed on this forum a lot of his posts are difficult to follow and when backed into a corner he says he was misunderstood and changes what he said and didn't mean it -that- way (which is what I mean by him changing his opinion). I just find stuff like that annoying to follow.

Actually I don't care to debate on forums for that reason, it's like watching puppies chase their tails.

---------------------------------------

And inurl I told you in the chatroom I don't hate you, I just don't agree with your opinions most of the time.

[japanat]

Oh yeah right - so a kid screws up and goes to prison for 10 years that`s very understandable eight kids moreover. I`m not defending them but sending them to prison won`t change anything besides turning them into real criminals. That`s fucked up reasoning - eye for an eye and no practicality whatsoever. Your prisons aren`t doing any rehabilitation as it is now just plain retribution. At least kids have the chance to be changed for what that counts.

There`s ways to make a criminal suffer without ruining his life. Make him do the hardest work deprive him of anything you call commodity force him into the toughest educational system for 3-5 years. What good is it to anyone if he spends 20 years of his life hanging around in jail. He`ll be out as the same person he was before only made stronger by anything he might have experienced in jail.

And you can blame the parents for being fuck-ups you can blame the older children for luring the younger into it. And kids screw up - that`s the fact. You can`t consider that a fully realized act of crime. Kids may understand concepts just as well as adults but experience teaches attitude. Kids don`t have life experience. That`s why their reasoning isn`t put on the same level as that of adults.Damn, I actually agree with you for once... all except the last paragraph.

I do agree that these kids would benefit as much by therapy as by jail time; and I certainly think that the US jail system isn't rehabilitating anyone, nor is it harsh enough to make them actively want to avoid it. And the parents definitely have a certain amount of responsibility, especially for actions which occurred within their homes, like dubbing that DVD.

But while 15 yrs-old may not fully realize the value of things, this case goes way beyond that. If their parents have done their job, any 8-yr-old child should know that hurting others is bad, if only because it causes them to be punished themselves. Pain = Bad. Basic survival mechanism.

My 7-year-old son is a typical boy. He's impulsive, often acts without thinking, can be unintentionally cruel (sometimes intentionally so). He also understands that to actually hurt someone will cause him to be punished, in varying degrees depending upon what he has done. That is basic parenting. So while he may not fully understand the morality of some of his actions, he certainly understands the consequences.

But these kids: rape, lighting someone on fire, then distributing a DVD and not only not thinking they've done something wrong, but actually not expecting punishment? My parents would have promised to visit me in jail, but they wouldn't have done much else (and didn't, the one time I got in trouble with the law).

[MNJetter]

I`m not defending them but sending them to prison won`t change anything besides turning them into real criminals.
I am not going to debate the merits or disadvantages of the American incarceration system, but I would like to point out that with or without prison, these "kids" already are real criminals, in the most horrible sense of the word. Rape is considered one of the most heinous things a person can do, criminally. What more do you have to do to become a criminal? Kill someone?

We teach our children that if you do something bad, you will get punished. These kids did something absolutely awful, and they barely got punished at all. Wouldn't that, more than being incarcerated for a long time, tell the kids that they can get away with anything, and turn them into "real criminals"?

[Shuft]

Poor guys. Therapy blows.

[Radiance]

BTW, raping the girl is not the only thing these guys did.

They vandalised Taxi cabs, made dangerous bombs and set a homeless man on fire. There is also talk taht a second TV shows the boys breaking and entering into peoples house ans shitting into their property.

The girl was 'groomed' by two of the boys on MSN before meeting her (illegal as well). She also suffers from intellectual and mental impairments.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKqcGyE_WJ8

I'd like to state I am shocked you were the first person in this thread to mention that she is mentally impaired. I'd state that as a freakin' cornerstone of my case for the fact that these punks should get more than "therapy". So what, they go talk to a counselor once a week for thirty minutes and everything is alright? Sheesh....

[whispering]

It's there some prisons in some European countries where it's actually more a confined vacation resort than a prison?
Here the prison system isnt ment as a punishment system (punishment sentences were removed in 1975) per se, but more as a place where criminals are ment to become good citizens again (forgot the word and dont have my dictionary at work). A lot of people complane here that e.g. the sentences are too short, especially for rape (average sentence is 2-3 years). Though i wouldnt call it a vacation resort.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKqcGyE_WJ8
I just hope the short sentence means that they will be punished in a way no civilized justice system could.

[Arctic_Slicer]

What those boys did was definitely wrong but I have to agree with most of rl*united's points. People at that age have had the life experiences to fully develop their senses of morals, ethics, biases, prejudices, values, and ideals. At that age their bodies and minds are still developing and are much more likely to do things that they will later regret. This makes them more vulnerable to temptation and peer pressure. I know I did a lot of things at that age that I think was completely stupid now and I don't see it really being much different here. Granted what these boys did is truly horrible but locking them up in a prison isn't going to improve the lives of anyone.

It's also important to note, that according to the article there were 11 boys involved in this meeting with the girl. I can say with reasonable certainty that peer pressure played a huge role here. Teenage boys are infamous for trash talk and think it's cool to talk about doing naughty things. It's not uncommon for them to have some sort of contest of who can say the trashiest, nastiest things imaginable and when you have that many boys together I imagine that the conversation would degrade pretty quickly. It probably got to a point where one of them was like "you can't be serious" and "prove it". Since boys tend to try and put on a tough guise on especially among their peers they go out to prove that they aren't all talk because they want to be "cool" in the eyes of their peers.

That's really how stuff like that happens.

[Silverhawk]

I too generally agree with rl*united. These guys are still quite young, you can keep them in prison for 20 years, and they'll still come out below 40. Then what you have are a bunch of "grown-ups" who can't fit properly in society. You seriously think that's going to make things better?

i think rl*united shouldn't have used "real criminals", but "worse criminals". The therapy move isn't bad, if you can change how the act (which you can, considering their age) then you'll get a productive member of society who isn't wasting resources in prison.

[whispering]

People at that age have had the life experiences to fully develop their senses of morals, ethics, biases, prejudices, values, and ideals.
They were all above 15, which around here means they become responsible for their own actions, and rightly so. But hey now that they got few sessions of therapy i'm sure they learned their lesson, right? It doesnt have to be 20 years in jail with rapists on the same sell (although that would be nice karma), but fucking therapy sessions for a gangrape?

[stsparky]

Maybe these human monsters do the outrageously horrible to earn punishment? I'd make sure they would never victimize innocents again if I was the judge. I see nothing in their actions that hint of remorse - so I'd lock them away.

[Zen Monkey]

If you're old enough to do something this horrible, then you're old enough to be punished like an adult too. These 'kids' were certainly old enough to have developed their own moral compass by now (would have had their own kids and homes not that long ago in history), they just set theirs to evil. A few hours of puzzles and inkblot tests aren't going to fix this. They should be locked away to spend the rest of their life realizing what they did. I don't believe in capital punishment, but I sure believe in locking you away from the rest of the species.
We don't want you in the herd anymore, here's a box and some food and all the time in the world to figure it out.

[PopCulturePooka]

Another FYI.

In Australia 15 year olds can make medical decisions for themselves, without parents consent in some cases and covered by medical confidentiality in some.

At 16 they become full adults in terms of medical procedures and laws.

If a 15 year old kid in Australia can go to the docotr for birth control pills and their parents don't get told, than a 17 year old can go to prison for rape.

[Fred]

rl*limited – I am going to try an paraphrase your arguments. Please correct me if I get it wrong.

#1. These kids should not be tried as adults because they do not have the same capacity to understand crime as adults do.

#2. They should face some consequences, but rather than long-term incarceration and retribution, these consequences should focus on rehabilitation through education and hard labor.

#3. Prolonged incarceration would make them a greater danger to society when they got out.

#4. The parents of the children should also face legal consequences (probation and taxation) for the acts of their children.

As to #1: I think it is reasonable for a judge to consider a person’s capacity to understand his or her crime when determining their sentence. People discuss this question both in the context of juvenile law, in regards to mental retardation, and even in terms of people’s emotional state.

Yet, a person capacity to understand their crime at the time of commission does not change the severity of the crime. These kids demonstrated such a complete lack of empathy for another human being, that I have no trouble subjecting them to adult-sentencing guidelines. Also, these kids are old enough to know right from wrong.

As to #2: I go back and forth on this issue. In the US, I think there is an economic incentive to keep people in prison, which I don’t particularly like. However, I am not sure whether or not rehabilitation programs work. Perhaps, a solution might be a long prison sentence with the possibility of early release upon successful completion of a good rehabilitation program, completion of a GED, and restitution to the girl they injured.

As to #3: This is possible. The reverse is also possible. However, the possibility of them becoming worse criminals does not make long-term incarceration a poor option. They have already demonstrated their capacity for criminal behavior. It may be that long-term incarceration is the safest option for society. Moreover, they did a terrible thing and it is not inappropriate to punish them accordingly.

As to #4: I guess I am not clear on whether you are referring to criminal or civil liability. I certainly don’t think parents should be criminally liable for the acts of their children. However, I think they already can be sued in a civil court. Perhaps someone who knows something about the law could discuss this question further.

[Rear Admiral Grapefruit]

I'm sorry, but if a kid does a serious crime like this, i don't give a fucking shit what the hell he/she knows about life, he ruins someone elses life he gets the damn same thing back, unfair is it? so's rape, so's torture. Fuck human rights, just like they did, if someone wants to be free in society they can try thinking, too young/dumb/ignorant to think? i'm too apathetic to their story, i'm 20 now, i've successfully managed to go my whole life without raping and torturing mentally ill people even when i was in the 15-17age range!! for those agreeing with rl*united this must surely come as a shock. Whatever their situation is, the fact is they did this and you can not for even a second devalue the severity of their actions, feel free to explain to the girl that you think that their age is enough reason to let them have another crack at it, maybe next time they can kill someone.

Arctic_Slicer, peer pressure? seriously? the second one of my mates suggests gang rape i will punch them in the throat without a hesitation, no-one could pressure me into that kind of thing, they just clearly did it cause they wanted to, you don't just do it because someone says so, they each had a choice and they all chose to rape and torture a girl.

Seriously, people are trying to justify gang rape with trivial nothings, there is no justification here the only discussion should be of the retarded decision to punish them with therapy.

[MNJetter]

I think the debate on this thread has become less about the rape itself and more about the purpose of incarceration.

Opinion 1: The prison system is meant to rehabilitate criminals so that they become productive members of society.

Opinion 2: The prison system is meant to protect society by removing dangerous criminals from contact with other people.

[rl*united]

I'm sorry, but if a kid does a serious crime like this, i don't give a fucking shit what the hell he/she knows about life, he ruins someone elses life he gets the damn same thing back, unfair is it? so's rape, so's torture. Fuck human rights, just like they did, if someone wants to be free in society they can try thinking, too young/dumb/ignorant to think? i'm too apathetic to their story, i'm 20 now, i've successfully managed to go my whole life without raping and torturing mentally ill people even when i was in the 15-17age range!! for those agreeing with rl*united this must surely come as a shock. Whatever their situation is, the fact is they did this and you can not for even a second devalue the severity of their actions, feel free to explain to the girl that you think that their age is enough reason to let them have another crack at it, maybe next time they can kill someone.

Arctic_Slicer, peer pressure? seriously? the second one of my mates suggests gang rape i will punch them in the throat without a hesitation, no-one could pressure me into that kind of thing, they just clearly did it cause they wanted to, you don't just do it because someone says so, they each had a choice and they all chose to rape and torture a girl.

Seriously, people are trying to justify gang rape with trivial nothings, there is no justification here the only discussion should be of the retarded decision to punish them with therapy.

And I`m nineteen doing Pharmacy in Medical Academy which is the second hardest area of education to get into after Medicine itself. So out of the three that leaves dumb..... I`m offended :/

Now srsly - do you believe we should be locking kids up for 20... If so okay then, how wonderful it is the judicial system does not depend on you.

And Lol for people who think I`m demeaning the act. I`m merely suggesting a working practical solution. It might not fit your ideas or lust for revenge. But the truth is no one will respect a system when it works on meaningless punishment. People tend to endure the punishment and just grow even angrier at society. What truly disarms a criminal is the realisation that for what he`s done he`ll have to do the respective work before he`s released. Cold logic and a system that is working will ensure we have a safer society and not the romantic idea of 20 years or 40 years in jail. That`s the shit you see in movies.

A kid can`t even begin to imagine what 20 years of his life means. That`s why it`s obviously not working. Plus I still believe that twenty years of downtime never convinced anyone. Truth is you can change somebody in five years if you pay enough attention to fill every second of his miserable rehab life with some form of labor, manual preferably. But that doesn`t sattisfy the need for retribution does it ;)

#1. These kids should not be tried as adults because they do not have the same capacity to understand crime as adults do.

You say capacity I say experience - kids have the same ability to be good understanding hard-working people. They know morality and conseqences just as well. Although knowing is often not the same as believing.

If you think why most adults don`t go on a rampage shooting up bars and killing people in the streets it`s because life means something to them. They have a family they care about a job they want to protect and generally a life to cherish. And adults think twice about losing all that. Now what does a kid have to lose - or at least the angsty 17year old Australian kid. His Gameboy and color TV his pet or his bike? School?

Life experience is not learning right from wrong - that`s 3-7 year old experience. Life experience is about learning why life is worth not losing. My belief is those kids didn`t have the slightest idea about that.

[Rear Admiral Grapefruit]

Now srsly - do you believe we should be locking rapists up for 20... If so okay then, how wonderful it is the judicial system does not depend on you.


Yes, yes I do.

I work on the principle of fairness, I don't shit into your hand and thus you don't shit into mine, it works on the principle of respect, not in the godfather sense, but the realistic sense of mutual cohabitation. It's not about anything more than basic decency, but when someone does something of this calibre it's more than just a meagre infringement on common decency, it's obvious exploitation of goodwill and trust. You might call 20yrs in jail retribution, but I'd call it getting off easy, on the principle of fairness, a girl should never have been raped and tortured, but she was, and these boys who willing choose this as their path deserve equal recompense, because in my eyes that is fair and just. To then say otherwise is absurd, how wonderful it isn't that the judicial system in many of it's capacities can only fail to deliver the one thing it's expected to, justice.

I'm sure you'll make a great pharmacist when your code of ethics is based on false logic, if killing a few dozen people with your drug trials leads to realising the error of it's design then I'm sure those you sacrifice can happily call themselves martyrs for your cause, Yes?

[rl*united]

Yes, yes I do.

I work on the principle of fairness, I don't shit into your hand and thus you don't shit into mine, it works on the principle of respect, not in the godfather sense, but the realistic sense of mutual cohabitation. It's not about anything more than basic decency, but when someone does something of this calibre it's more than just a meagre infringement on common decency, it's obvious exploitation of goodwill and trust. You might call 20yrs in jail retribution, but I'd call it getting off easy, on the principle of fairness, a girl should never have been raped and tortured, but she was, and these boys who willing choose this as their path deserve equal recompense, because in my eyes that is fair and just. To then say otherwise is absurd, how wonderful it isn't that the judicial system in many of it's capacities can only fail to deliver the one thing it's expected to, justice.

I'm sure you'll make a great pharmacist when your code of ethics is based on false logic, if killing a few dozen people with your drug trials leads to realising the error of it's design then I'm sure those you sacrifice can happily call themselves martyrs for your cause, Yes?

You don`t know me dude - read my *other* walls of text.

[PopCulturePooka]

I think we should lock rapists up for 20 years merely because it removes sick rapists of our streets for 20 years.

Fuck the bleeding heart shit. They wanna act like threats to society. Put them in a cage.

[Exeter]

If you think why most adults don`t go on a rampage shooting up bars and killing people in the streets it`s because life means something to them. They have a family they care about a job they want to protect and generally a life to cherish. And adults think twice about losing all that. Now what does a kid have to lose - or at least the angsty 17year old Australian kid. His Gameboy and color TV his pet or his bike? School?

Life experience is not learning right from wrong - that`s 3-7 year old experience. Life experience is about learning why life is worth not losing. My belief is those kids didn`t have the slightest idea about that.

Jesus, it sounds like the only difference in your mind between those twisted little bastards and most other people is that most people are deterred from acting on their impulses by the threat of incarceration. I don't know about you, but even if there were no justice system in place I'd never want to rape and torture some poor girl. I think anyone who does is beyond help and should be locked up and forgotten as soon as possible.

[rl*united]

Jesus, it sounds like the only difference in your mind between those twisted little bastards and most other people is that most people are deterred from acting on their impulses by the threat of incarceration. I don't know about you, but even if there were no justice system in place I'd never want to rape and torture some poor girl. I think anyone who does is beyond help and should be locked up and forgotten as soon as possible.

Principle of fairness is a wrong principle when you`re talking about such things. I`m sorry if I sound like a cold heartless bastard. I`m just making a generalization based on those kids motivation and position in life. If it doesn`t fit you then you`re probably a better person than them.... duuh.

I realize that your greatest antithesis in this conversation is that you never did anything like that and you`ll never do. And those kind of people rather than being rehabilitated should be locked away from society to make *you* feel better.

I for ones am feeling okay with myself without the need to reinforce the belief in my own virtues by forcing extreme punishments to kids. If they can be turned back into society I`ll be happy with that - let them make amens among themselves and to that girl if they can later on in life.

"Beyond help" is you telling me you don`t think a 16 year old kid can`t change. Now in your world that might sound reasonable.

[PopCulturePooka]

They aren't frigging kids. Stop talking about 17 year olds as if they are innocent roses and fragile things.

At 17 here a kid can get an abortion without their parents consent, move out of home and live alone, drive, join the army (my brother did), own a business and more.

They can also chose to rape or not rape a mentally handicapped girl.

And they can face the consequences of that.

And if they prove to be a menace and danger to society like these twats they can be removed from it.

[erbiumfiber]

If the judge is so keen on therapy, at least have them be confined to a mental hospital while they receive treatment. And if, and only if, they show remarkable improvement/recovery, they can rejoin society.

In the U.S. they were (maybe still are) letting people out of jail who've served their sentences and then having them committed to mental hosptials as being incorrigable pedophiles, sexual deviants, what have you. All in the name of prevention.

Of course, the mental hospital should be one for those convicted of crimes so they aren't let loose on a very vulnerable population.

And, for the record, I'm on the side of prison, but if they are going to be "treated" let it be in custody.

[Urban~Ninja]

My friend from Melbourne linked me one of the kids' My spaces and it had been hacked by someone and basically there were 1000's of death threats against these kids, the my space is subsequently shut down.

According to what ive been told alot of groups of 18/17/16/19 year olds within Melbourne for awhile were basically on watch for these kids and word was to just mame them, because well i don't support mob violence self justice these kids have got away very lightly for someone very heinous.

The kids i suspect are under some kind of police protection, probably very be-grudgingly as well, i mean these kids probably are in mortal danger for their acts, and i assume one or two probably do understand what they have done as a horrible act and are sorry now, though i don't think thats nearly enough.

I'm 17 in Sydney, Australia and i can honestly say the youth in Australia are little Jerk Offs they reckon they can run the place and I've seen 60 year old women being attempted mugged, its not something that should be happening. I blame it on lax parents to an extent, but you cant hold parents at fault all the time. I mean my parents are pretty easy going let me drink, said if i wanted to smoke (I don't though.) they just don't care what i do, because they know i'm smart enough to not fuck around.
These kids could have had strict as f*** parents but it just didnt get through to them, i mean sometimes it doesn't.

Prime example, i was at a all night movie marathon at the shopping mall near my place and between the 4 movies you could go outside and do whatever. I saw some maybe 16 year old girl basically being told she was going to the toilet with some 19 year old looking guy and give him head, she didnt want to and he started to grab her etc, no one did shit, since well he was big and scary. My mate from work was with me, mind you my mates from work...well they are just looking for a reason to hit someone upside the head for being little pricks (they are all fkin great guys honestly) and they just told the asshole to bugger off and if he troubled the chick again, he would be getting a face full of concrete.

What im trying to display is the youth in Australia are all trying to be tough and rough, whether this be a immatation of American rap culture or just general rebellion in a different form is not really an excuse for what happened.

I'm unaware but these boys can have these put on their records for life and i hope this is the case for them, i mean obviously the punishment didn't suit the crime but they are branded for life for what they did and they should face it.

[The_Penguin]

Rape is not "screw[ing] up," rape is a crime that should be heavily punished. They lit her hair on fire and urinated on her. you call that "screwing up"?! what kind of society is that a simple slip-up? In an industrialized nation no one should have to blame the parents, at that age they are grown into themselves enough that they know what they are doing, it is not a simple question of them messing up! They ruined that girl's reputation, and there is the possibilty of mental problems after a trauma of this sort. They should be locked away and get the help they need and be put away from society
You win, rl loses.

[Fred]

rl*united – I think you missed my point. I was not interested in debating the use of the word capacity over experience. I was trying to paraphrase (meaning to restate something using other words) your argument in order to see if I understood the main points you were making. There is little merit in explaining where I agree or disagree with your position if I don’t understand it.

In trying to restate (meaning to summarize something using other words) your arguments, I thought you had four basic points. Did I get the essence of your arguments correct? If not, how would you rephrase them (meaning to make a short, simplified version of your argument using other words)?

[Pengy737]

Crime happens repeatedly by the same people, to the point that many consider preventing criminals from repeating their acts to be the most important and effective way to lower crime rates.

Raping this girl was not the only crime these boys have done. And I can guarantee you, a couple of years of weekly (I'm assuming) therapy will not prevent these kids from commiting crimes in the future. When criminals have begun a cycle, it is terribly hard to stop them. People are often released from prison or therapy only to commit crimes again. I'm not saying the kids should be locked up forever. I'm just saying they should be put in prison, and given therapy. They should not be given a set time to have therapy. These kids should have therapy until therapists and doctors are almost completely sure they have remorse for their crimes, and and will repress urges to commit crimes in the future.

Just because one might not acknowledge the consequences of their actions, or are that way because of a bad upbringing, does not mean they should be given an easy time about their crime. You know what? TONS of criminals have bad childhoods. Serial killers have had terrible childhoods. We might feel sorry about the fact that the way they grew up probably caused them to become what they are, but that doesn't mean they should just have been given some therapy and then left alone. Bad childhoods, lack of morals, peer pressure (like they won't fall to peer pressure again), and everything else you can think of to defend criminals does not make them any less of a threat to society.

The kids are laughing about this, and boasting about it. Does anyone here really think that a couple of years of therapy will make everything better, and they will never commit a crime again? It won't, and I bet that during these couple of years of therapy, they are continuing to do petty crimes. Don't put them in prision? Yeah. Great idea. But, y'know, since teenagers are morally blind and everything, we can just let them go and hope that they might magicially sprout moral fiber while they are getting away with crimes.

[KasMage]

One thing that hasn't been pointed out is that in a specific situation like this, eight teenagers talking to each other are going to have more of an effect on decision-making than parents. You can be a fantastic parent, but sometimes, your seventeen-year old son might end up pressed to think separately when seven other kids are telling him to. And it's not like these kids were eight-year olds. Like PopCulturePooka said, you have a fair amount of freedom when you're seventeen years old. We don't even know if these kids were still living with their parents.

[羽之助]

Good thing they don't live in the States, or they'd get 60 years in jail.

Or rather, too bad they don't live in the States.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/laworder/story/A5E1FF8453EF5C2586257394005C3087?OpenDocument

Boy, 15, gets 60 years for StL County sex attack of girl, 6

CLAYTON -- A judge sentenced to 60 years in prison this morning a teenager who had pleaded guilty of kidnapping, beating and sexually assaulting a neighbor in Spanish Lake on Nov. 11, 2005, when he was 13 and she was 6.

St. Louis County Circuit Judge Melvyn W. Wiesman imposed the sentence on Sherman Burnett Jr., now 15 and the youngest inmate ever housed in the county jail.

In imposing the lengthy sentence -- Burnett will be ineligible for parole until at least the year 2056, when he is 64 -- Wiesman rejected confining Burnett in a juvenile offender program in Montgomery City, Mo., where Burnett could have gotten a chance at probation as early as age 17.

Testimony this morning disclosed that Burnett had blamed, in part, the 6-year-old for his own misfortune and had denied any sexual assaults in a recent interview with a state employee, even though he had pleaded guilty on Aug. 10 of sodomy and attempted rape, along with child kidnapping and assault.

Brent Buerck is a senior program administrator for the Missouri Division of Youth Services. He testified that he interviewed Burnett to see if the teen would be eligible for a dual jurisdiction juvenile program of his agency and the Department of Corrections.

Under questioning by prosecutor Rob Livergood, Buerck said he was told by Burnett that the incident was caused because the victim had thrown a rock at him, and Burnett had denied he tried to rape her. Buerck confirmed that there was no evidence in any of the records or police reports he saw to substantiate Burnett's new claims or to rebut the victim's statements about the attack on Nov. 11, 2005.

Buerck said, however, that it was not unusual for a teenager to minimize his crimes, and Burnett had qualified for the program. Buerck added under Livergood's questioning that Burnett had told him: ``he beat her up severely so she wouldn't remember anything.''

Under the juvenile offender program sought by defense attorney Nellie Ribaudo, Burnett would get counseling, sex offender treatment and education that he couldn't get in prison. He would have hearings when he turned 17 to see if he should continue in the program and again at 21. In that hearing, Buerck said, a judge would decide if Burnett was eligible for probation or would be turned over to the prison system for the balance of his sentence.

Wiesman rejected juvenile custody, saying Burnett was an inappropriate candidate ``in light of the severity of the assault and what appears to be a threat to the community.''

The judge then sentenced Burnett to 20 years in prison each on counts of child kidnapping and assault; and 10 years each on charges of sodomy and atttempted rape. The sentences are to be served consecutively and Burnett will be ineligible for parole until he serves 85 percent or 51 years.

Burnett showed no emotion when Wiesman pronounced sentence. Seven members of his family appeared stunned. Also in court this morning were the victim and her mother. They made no oral statement.

From her hospital bed at St. Louis Children's Hospital two days after the assault, the victim picked out Burnett from a school yearbook picture. She had half an ear torn off, a lascerated liver, a skull fracture and bruises from the top of her head to her thighs.

She told police she couldn't walk after the attack. She crawled through a hole in a fence near railroad tracks but could go no further and, as night descended in woods near her house, she tried to cover herself with leaves. A police officer found her the next morning after a massive neighborhood search.

tl;dr: Boy gets to spend next 60 years in jail for raping a 6-year-old, blames it on her.